REFLECTOR: The Great LOP/EI Debate! :-)
reflector@tvbf.org
reflector@tvbf.org
Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:07:30 EDT
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I changed the thread heading so those of you who are bored by in depth geek=20
debate over engine theory just delete away! In the mean time Scott and I wil=
l=20
have an interesting discussion! I hope others jump in too! :-)
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Well, maybe, maybe not, lets not give up just yet....
You said "The EI allows you to run LOP" The nit picky PITA geek in me wants=20
accuracy so I pointed out that it can be done and is being done on regular=20
basis by thousands of pilots who DO NOT have an EI. If you have a set of the=
=20
notoriously bad TCM injectors/log runner intakes then EI alone is not going=20=
to let=20
you run LOP. So perhaps you overstated on that sentence? =20
>>LOP operations are dependent on the most equal burning of fuel across=20
all cylinders.=A0 This is accomplished by 1.) good to great fuel air=20
mixture distribution, 2.) a good spark at the right time.<<
Mostly agreed, but neither of those points REQUIRE an EI to accomplish.=20
However, I clearly understated when I said "The ability to run LOP is strict=
ly a=20
function of balanced injectors." See? The whole nit picky PITA geek thing w=
orks=20
both ways! :-)
>>If you have good distribution an EI will improve your burn by virtue of=20
a hotter spark at the right time,<<
Certainly no disagreement there!=20
>>thus allowing you to run an engine LOP be it carburated or injected that=20
you couldn't before.<<
Ah, now here we might have to disagree or maybe not.=20
1) If you have a very unbalanced set of injectors then EI alone will not=20
allow LOP.=20
2) If you know of a flat or "pancake" style engine running LOP with a=20
carburetor we need documentation! This would be a major breakthrough in engi=
ne theory=20
as the existing body of engineering knowledge and theory to date states that=
=20
it is not possible without something else to more evenly distribute the fuel=
=20
and hold it in vapor.=20
For example, the old radials with a centrifugal supercharger DOWNSTREAM of=20
the carb could and did run LOP. Perhaps some other device downstream could=20
accomplish the same thing but so far no one has done it that we know of with=
out=20
some other device at work in the system. Carburetors in and off themselves s=
imply=20
do not provide the "good to great fuel air mixture distribution" required. A=
t=20
least that is what current engine theory states. So if you know of an=20
exception please have that person come forward as a number of engineers woul=
d love to=20
see this! (not to mention a whole bunch of 182 drivers! )=20
Another aspect of carbureted engines is that the fuel vapor condenses out on=
=20
the walls on the intake manifold on the way to the cylinder. That condensati=
on=20
will form little streams that will go hither and yon in the intake depending=
=20
on airflow. "Round and round she goes-where she stops nobody knows!" You ju=
st=20
never know which cylinder the condensate will end up in or when it will end=20
up there almost guaranteeing uneven fuel distribution.=20
Again radials where the exception to this rule because the trip from the end=
=20
of the very large impeller wheel at the back of the engine to the intake val=
ve=20
was very very short AND there is only one intake tube from the impeller to=20
the cylinder. So any condensate ended up in the cylinder it was intended for=
.=20
Also if the condensate worked it's way back to the impeller the impeller wou=
ld=20
re-vaporize it.=20
>>My engine is a perfect example.=A0 WIth the two mags my engine would start=
=20
to stumble at about 25 LOP.=A0 50 LOP was impossible. After installing the=20
EI, I can now run at 75 LOP smooth as can be.=A0=A0 This is a true story and=
=20
has been duplicated by many.=A0 <<
I don't doubt you for second but that is hardly conclusive proof that the EI=
=20
and the EI alone made LOP possible on your engine. I can come up with severa=
l=20
other explanations.=20
Again none of this is meant to denigrate EI. I love it and we as a community=
=20
are way over due for it. Personally, I'm just too cheap buy it! :-)
Dm Rob=20
RJohn15183@aol.com wrote:
>=A0 > The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce your EGT'=
s
>=20
> Scott, I have nothing against EI here but they have nothing to do with=20
> LOP operations. The ability to run LOP is strictly a function of=20
> balanced injectors. For example an EI but carbureted engine can't run LOP.
>=20
> I ran LOP on the IO-540 in my XL with two mags and I still run LOP on=20
> TSIO-520 in the 210 with 2 mags. The 210 has GAMI's but the Lyc 540 in=20
> the XL did not. I was able to do it straight stock with Lycoming.
>=20
> DM Rob
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I changed the thread heading so those of you who are b=
ored by in depth geek debate over engine theory just delete away! In the mea=
n time Scott and I will have an interesting discussion! I hope others jump i=
n too! :-)<BR>
<BR>
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree.<BR>
<BR>
Well, maybe, maybe not, lets not give up just yet....<BR>
<BR>
You said <B>"The EI allows you to run LOP"</B> The nit picky PITA geek in me=
wants accuracy so I pointed out that it can be done and is being done on re=
gular basis by thousands of pilots who DO NOT have an EI. If you have a set=20=
of the notoriously bad TCM injectors/log runner intakes then EI alone is not=
going to let you run LOP. So perhaps you overstated on that sentence? =
<BR>
<BR>
>>LOP operations are dependent on the most equal burning of fuel acros=
s <BR>
all cylinders.=A0 This is accomplished by 1.) good to great fuel air <BR>
mixture distribution, 2.) a good spark at the right time.<<<BR>
<BR>
Mostly agreed, but neither of those points REQUIRE an EI to accomplish. Howe=
ver, <B>I clearly understated</B> when I said "The ability to run LOP is str=
ictly a function of balanced injectors." See? The whole nit picky PITA=
geek thing works both ways! :-)<BR>
<BR>
>>If you have good distribution an EI will improve your burn by virtue=
of <BR>
a hotter spark at the right time,<<<BR>
<BR>
Certainly no disagreement there! <BR>
<BR>
>>thus allowing you to run an engine LOP be it carburated or injected=20=
that you couldn't before.<<<BR>
<BR>
Ah, now here we might have to disagree or maybe not. <BR>
<BR>
1) If you have a very unbalanced set of injectors then EI alone will not all=
ow LOP. <BR>
<BR>
2) If you know of a flat or "pancake" style engine running LOP with a carbur=
etor we need documentation! This would be a major breakthrough in engine the=
ory as the existing body of engineering knowledge and theory to date states=20=
that it is not possible without something else to more evenly distribute the=
fuel and hold it in vapor. <BR>
<BR>
For example, the old radials with a centrifugal supercharger DOWNSTREAM of t=
he carb could and did run LOP. Perhaps some other device downstream could ac=
complish the same thing but so far no one has done it that we know of withou=
t some other device at work in the system. Carburetors in and off themselves=
simply do not provide the "good to great fuel air mixture distribution" req=
uired. At least that is what current engine theory states. So if you know of=
an exception please have that person come forward as a number of engineers=20=
would love to see this! (not to mention a whole bunch of 182 drivers! ) <BR>
<BR>
Another aspect of carbureted engines is that the fuel vapor condenses out on=
the walls on the intake manifold on the way to the cylinder. That condensat=
ion will form little streams that will go hither and yon in the intake depen=
ding on airflow. "Round and round she goes-where she stops nobody knows!"&nb=
sp; You just never know which cylinder the condensate will end up in or when=
it will end up there almost guaranteeing uneven fuel distribution. <BR>
<BR>
Again radials where the exception to this rule because the trip from the end=
of the very large impeller wheel at the back of the engine to the intake va=
lve was very very short AND there is only one intake tube from the impeller=20=
to the cylinder. So any condensate ended up in the cylinder it was intended=20=
for. Also if the condensate worked it's way back to the impeller the impelle=
r would re-vaporize it. <BR>
<BR>
>>My engine is a perfect example.=A0 WIth the two mags my engine would=
start <BR>
to stumble at about 25 LOP.=A0 50 LOP was impossible. After installing the <=
BR>
EI, I can now run at 75 LOP smooth as can be.=A0=A0 This is a true story and=
<BR>
has been duplicated by many.=A0 <<<BR>
<BR>
I don't doubt you for second but that is hardly conclusive proof that the EI=
and the EI alone made LOP possible on your engine. I can come up with sever=
al other explanations. <BR>
<BR>
Again none of this is meant to denigrate EI. I love it and we as a community=
are way over due for it. Personally, I'm just too cheap buy it! :-)<BR>
<BR>
Dm Rob <BR>
<BR>
RJohn15183@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>=A0 > The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce you=
r EGT's<BR>
> <BR>
> Scott, I have nothing against EI here but they have nothing to do with=20=
<BR>
> LOP operations. The ability to run LOP is strictly a function of <BR>
> balanced injectors. For example an EI but carbureted engine can't run L=
OP.<BR>
> <BR>
> I ran LOP on the IO-540 in my XL with two mags and I still run LOP on <=
BR>
> TSIO-520 in the 210 with 2 mags. The 210 has GAMI's but the Lyc 540 in=20=
<BR>
> the XL did not. I was able to do it straight stock with Lycoming.<BR>
> <BR>
> DM Rob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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