Message

From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 00:16:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocity xl) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:16:29 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cheap Flying References: <001d01c33e38$f33c1e80$91a2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <005e01c33f5d$a64bcdc0$2a84cf0c@attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C33F2B.588BB3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I could not find the Velocity plug in. Ron=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 6:21 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Cheap Flying Cheap flying! Now plug in the Velocity model from www.flightsim.com=20 Some might say this guy could have purchased a real airplane for what = he has tied up in computers and monitors, but this doesn't require $2.50 = a gallon avgas or insurance! http://members.chello.nl/~s.ferris/ Now plug in the Velocity model from www.flightsim.com Ronnie ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C33F2B.588BB3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I could not find the Velocity plug = in.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronnie=20 Brown
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 = 6:21 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Cheap = Flying

Cheap flying! Now plug in the Velocity model = from www.flightsim.com

Some might say this guy could have = purchased a=20 real airplane for what he has tied up in computers and monitors, but = this=20 doesn't require $2.50 a gallon avgas or insurance!

http://members.chello.nl/~s.= ferris/

Now plug=20 in the Velocity model from www.flightsim.com

Ronnie
------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C33F2B.588BB3C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 02:57:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (dean fitzbag) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:57:52 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs References: <166.22a18256.2c321718@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C33F4A.458CEFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is no hurry. They will fit in a large trunk. They are about 4 = to 5 foot semicircles. I also will supply the large bolts and nut for = attachment. The kit bolts are not long enough. So far no one else has = replied. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pinkav8or@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs i might be interested if you could give me a month or two to get it = and its not to big to haul on a small trailer=20 Ray Watkins ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C33F4A.458CEFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is no hurry. They will fit in a large = trunk. =20 They are about 4 to 5 foot semicircles. I also will = supply the=20 large bolts and nut for attachment. The kit bolts are not long=20 enough. So far no one else has replied.

----- Original Message -----

From: Pinkav8or@aol.com

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 = 5:43 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

i might be interested if you could give me a = month or two=20 to get it and its not to big to haul on a small trailer

Ray=20 Watkins

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C33F4A.458CEFE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 03:11:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:11:05 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Message-ID: <1d0.cd1c71b.2c3247b9@aol.com> --part1_1d0.cd1c71b.2c3247b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ray, Where are you located? I may be interested in them after you are through with them. Thanks, Bill Torres Richmond, VA --part1_1d0.cd1c71b.2c3247b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ray,

Where are you located? I may be interested in them after you are throu= gh with them.

Thanks,

Bill Torres
Richmond, VA --part1_1d0.cd1c71b.2c3247b9_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 03:29:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Peter Wetmore) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:29:52 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight References: Message-ID: <001901c33f78$a6d4dfa0$6501a8c0@ph.cox.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C33F3D.FA43AD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congratulations Kevin!!!!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Velocity_AZ=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:27 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight After 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike = Pollock, Velocity owner and test pilot, made the first flights of our = Velocity, N111VX. My wife and I flew chase with Milt Mersky and Dave = Bertram in Milt's & Mike's Velocity. =20 Elite Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear Empty Weight 1505 Re-Man IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression pistons M-T Prop Single oil cooler (in front) Downdraft cooling Presently in primer, no interior (just seats) =20 Saturday 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it's = hot in Scottsdale, AZ now). CHTs were high (over 400) on taxi. She = flew beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the oil temp = was slowly rising. At 245 degrees, Mike decided to land. The lowest = oil temp on descent was 230. Mike said that the wire duct was quite = hot. CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil reached around 256 = and CHTs reach around 467 by the time Mike taxied back and shutdown. We = were expecting high temps until the engine was broken in but the oil = temp was concerning. Duane Swing suggested that a small NACA scoop in = the fuselage at the forward end of the pilot wire duct that holds both = oil lines would help by keeping the lines cooler in flight. We put in = the NACA scoop (or hole for the time being) and the next morning we flew = again. CHTs were below 425 (mostly around 370-380) and oil temp was = below 245 the entire time. Between the engine slowing breaking in and = the small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for = almost 2 hours in the local practice area around 6,000'. Mike did slow = flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests - everything went fine - = she flew beautifully. =20 Pictures can be seen at: = http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3D4291366131&code=3D5662024&mode=3D= invite =20 I should have my transition training completed sometime this week and = will hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can't wait and = still can't find the words. =20 Kevin ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C33F3D.FA43AD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Congratulations Kevin!!!!!

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Velocity_AZ=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 = 11:27=20 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:First = Flight

After=20 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike Pollock, = Velocity=20 owner and test pilot, made the first flights of our Velocity, = N111VX. My wife and I flew chase = with Milt=20 Mersky and Dave Bertram in Milt=92s & Mike=92s=20 Velocity.

Elite=20 Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear

Empty=20 Weight 1505

Re-Man=20 IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression=20 pistons

M-T=20 Prop

Single=20 oil cooler (in front)

Downdraft=20 cooling

Presently=20 in primer, no interior (just = seats)

Saturday=20 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it=92s hot in = Scottsdale,=20 AZ now). CHTs = were high=20 (over 400) on taxi. She = flew=20 beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the oil temp was = slowly=20 rising. At 245 degrees, = Mike=20 decided to land. The = lowest oil=20 temp on descent was 230. = Mike=20 said that the wire duct was quite hot. =20 CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil reached around 256 and = CHTs reach=20 around 467 by the time Mike taxied back and shutdown. We were expecting high temps = until the=20 engine was broken in but the oil temp was concerning. Duane Swing suggested that a = small=20 NACA scoop in the fuselage at the forward end of the pilot wire duct = that=20 holds both oil lines would help by keeping the lines cooler in = flight. We put in the NACA scoop (or = hole for=20 the time being) and the next morning we flew again. CHTs were below 425 (mostly = around=20 370-380) and oil temp was below 245 the entire time. Between the engine slowing = breaking in=20 and the small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for almost 2 hours = in the=20 local practice area around 6,000=92. =20 Mike did slow flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests =96 = everything went fine =96 she flew=20 beautifully.

Pictures=20 can be seen at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3D4291366131&code=3D566= 2024&mode=3Dinvite

I=20 should have my transition training completed sometime this week and = will=20 hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can=92t wait and still = can=92t find the=20 words=85

Kevin

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C33F3D.FA43AD00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 04:31:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:31:45 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight In-Reply-To: <20030630223350.14070.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yea, Does your wife have a sister? It was great to see her involved in the aircraft like that :)) - the best my (ex) girlfriend ever did was go to get me some lunch as I sweated it out in the hanger.......... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:34 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:First Flight --- Velocity_AZ wrote: > After 3 years and 4 months of building, Kevin, Great pics! I showed my wife and told her I could have kicked out our plane in 3 1/2 yrs too if she had just helped w/ the layups like yours did... Congrats, Pat (XLRG, 5 yrs, 4500 hrs and counting) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 05:34:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Scharfenberg) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:34:12 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kevin, My oil and cyl. temps came down a lot after the engine broke in for a while. Dave Scharfenberg From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 06:39:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 01:39:13 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight Message-ID: <116.2599a61a.2c327881@wmconnect.com> --part1_116.2599a61a.2c327881_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin, Great job, congratulations on your first flight. Enjoyed your photos. Mel Bina --part1_116.2599a61a.2c327881_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin,
Great job, congratulations on your=20= first flight. Enjoyed your photos.

Mel Bina --part1_116.2599a61a.2c327881_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 11:08:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:08:53 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Message-ID: <11d.23dac496.2c32b7b5@aol.com> --part1_11d.23dac496.2c32b7b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm in jax fl Ray Watkins --part1_11d.23dac496.2c32b7b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i'm in jax fl

Ray Watkins --part1_11d.23dac496.2c32b7b5_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 11:11:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:11:01 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Message-ID: <1c1.bf6cd20.2c32b835@aol.com> --part1_1c1.bf6cd20.2c32b835_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ok i,d like to get it is there a # i can call you at to make arrangements thanks Ray Watkins --part1_1c1.bf6cd20.2c32b835_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok i,d like to get it is there a # i can call you at t= o make arrangements thanks

Ray Watkins --part1_1c1.bf6cd20.2c32b835_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 13:39:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:39:03 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C33FA3.D7E20980 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C33FA3.D7E20980" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C33FA3.D7E20980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have been using a Die-Hard battery or 6 years now without problems. It has never let us down and it is easily available. Mike N173DT -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 2:01 PM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Tom, This issue was discussed at length approx. a month ago and the conclusion seemed to be that Odyssey batteries seemed to be a consensus choice as reliable, robust, durable, even though a little pricey. A number of other sealed batteries were referenced but it seems if you're willing to spend the bucks, Odyssey is an excellent choice. Do a Google search for Odyssey and you'll come up with info and distributors. Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:27 PM To: Velocity Email List (E-mail) Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Any thoughts on the best batteries to you can buy? Primary and backup? I think a deep cycle is best for a backup battery since it is made to run over a period of time with a steady drain. For the primary battery you want strong cranking amps. Any thoughts on brands? Or models? ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C33FA3.D7E20980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We=20 have been using a Die-Hard battery or 6 years now without = problems. It has=20 never let us down and it is easily available.

Mike

N173DT

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck=20 Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 2:01 PM
To:=20 'reflector@tvbf.org'
Subject: RE:=20 REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

Tom,

This issue was discussed at length approx. a month ago = and the=20 conclusion seemed to be that Odyssey batteries seemed = to be a=20 consensus choice as reliable, robust, durable, even though a little=20 pricey. A number of other sealed batteries were referenced but = it seems=20 if you're willing to spend the bucks, Odyssey is an excellent = choice. Do=20 a Google search for Odyssey and you'll come up with info and=20 distributors.

Chuck

N27GV

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:27 = PM
To:=20 Velocity Email List (E-mail)
Subject:=20 REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

Any thoughts on=20 the best batteries to you can buy? Primary and=20 backup?

I = think a deep=20 cycle is best for a backup battery since it is made to run over a = period of=20 time with a steady drain.

For the primary=20 battery you want strong cranking amps.

Any thoughts on=20 brands? Or=20 models?

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C33FA3.D7E20980-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C33FA3.D7E20980 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IgMMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHBwABAAcAIwAAAAIADgEB A5AGAEwEAAAhAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAUAAAAUkVGTEVDVE9SOkJBVFRFUklFUwACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABwztHnbNG15+K gZJIrq27F9hDm26bASFhfzAAAgEdDAEAAAAbAAAAU01UUDpNLlBPTExPQ0tAVkVSSVpPTi5ORVQA AAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgBy1y/NP8MBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAEZuQDu97ohIhQtrIgjaXKLCgAAA HgBCEAEAAAAwAAAAPEMwRDg0NzJFMTRBQUQ1MTE5NUU5MDA1MDA0QTUyMDA0NjRCNEBOVFNFUlZF Uj4ACwABgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAAQhQAAAAAAAAMAB4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAAnagEAHgAJgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOS4wAB4ACoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAA AQAAAAAAAAAeAAuACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAMgAggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAsADYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAIKF AAABAAAAHgAOgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAg4UAAAEAAAATAAAANjI1MzkzNDEyLTAxMDcy MDAzAAALADqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAPIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwA9gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAALAFKACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAAGhQAAAAAAAAMAU4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAAAgH4DwEA AAAQAAAARm5AO73uiEiFC2siCNpcogIB+g8BAAAAEAAAAEZuQDu97ohIhQtrIgjaXKICAfsPAQAA AKQAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA3 2W4AAABDOlxEb2N1bWVudHMgYW5kIFNldHRpbmdzXFBvbGxvY2suTElWSU5HUk9PTVxMb2NhbCBT ZXR0aW5nc1xBcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBEYXRhXE1pY3Jvc29mdFxPdXRsb29rXG91dGxvb2sucHN0AAMA /g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAADUAAAA8SUlFSUlGQUxDTkVNRUlPQk9CRU1BRUFJQ1BBQS5t LnBvbGxvY2tAdmVyaXpvbi5uZXQ+AAAAACK4 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C33FA3.D7E20980-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 13:39:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:39:00 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C33FA3.D69F9E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Congratulations Kevin. Your airplane is super and so are you and Brooke. I cannot wait until you guys get to fly to Dallas. I will be locating the shims tonight and I will send them along with the information I promised you. Regards, Michael Pollock -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Velocity_AZ Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:27 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight After 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike Pollock, Velocity owner and test pilot, made the first flights of our Velocity, N111VX. My wife and I flew chase with Milt Mersky and Dave Bertram in Milt� s & Mike�s Velocity. Elite Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear Empty Weight 1505 Re-Man IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression pistons M-T Prop Single oil cooler (in front) Downdraft cooling Presently in primer, no interior (just seats) Saturday 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it�s hot in Scottsdale, AZ now). CHTs were high (over 400) on taxi. She flew beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the oil temp was slowly rising. At 245 degrees, Mike decided to land. The lowest oil temp on descent was 230. Mike said that the wire duct was quite hot. CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil reached around 256 and CHTs reach around 467 by the time Mike taxied back and shutdown. We were expecting high temps until the engine was broken in but the oil temp was concerning. Duane Swing suggested that a small NACA scoop in the fuselage at the forward end of the pilot wire duct that holds both oil lines would help by keeping the lines cooler in flight. We put in the NACA scoop (or hole for the time being) and the next morning we flew again. CHTs were below 425 (mostly around 370-380) and oil temp was below 245 the entire time. Between the engine slowing breaking in and the small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for almost 2 hours in the local practice area around 6,000�. Mike did slow flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests � everything went fine � she flew beautifully. Pictures can be seen at: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291366131&code=5662024&mode=invite I should have my transition training completed sometime this week and will hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can�t wait and still can�t find the words� Kevin ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C33FA3.D69F9E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Congratulations Kevin. Your airplane is super and so are = you and=20 Brooke. I cannot wait until you guys get to fly to=20 Dallas.

I will=20 be locating the shims tonight and I will send them along with the = information I=20 promised you.

Regards,

Michael = Pollock

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf = Of=20 Velocity_AZ
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:27 = PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:First=20 Flight

After=20 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike Pollock, = Velocity=20 owner and test pilot, made the first flights of our Velocity, = N111VX. My wife and I flew chase = with Milt=20 Mersky and Dave Bertram in Milt=92s & Mike=92s=20 Velocity.

Elite=20 Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear

Empty=20 Weight 1505

Re-Man=20 IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression=20 pistons

M-T=20 Prop

Single=20 oil cooler (in front)

Downdraft=20 cooling

Presently=20 in primer, no interior (just = seats)

Saturday=20 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it=92s hot in = Scottsdale,=20 AZ now). CHTs = were high=20 (over 400) on taxi. She = flew=20 beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the oil temp was = slowly=20 rising. At 245 degrees, = Mike=20 decided to land. The = lowest oil=20 temp on descent was 230. = Mike=20 said that the wire duct was quite hot. =20 CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil reached around 256 and = CHTs reach=20 around 467 by the time Mike taxied back and shutdown. We were expecting high temps = until the=20 engine was broken in but the oil temp was concerning. Duane Swing suggested that a = small=20 NACA scoop in the fuselage at the forward end of the pilot wire duct = that=20 holds both oil lines would help by keeping the lines cooler in = flight. We put in the NACA scoop (or = hole for=20 the time being) and the next morning we flew again. CHTs were below 425 (mostly = around=20 370-380) and oil temp was below 245 the entire time. Between the engine slowing = breaking in=20 and the small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for almost 2 hours = in the=20 local practice area around 6,000=92. =20 Mike did slow flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests =96 = everything went fine =96 she flew=20 beautifully.

Pictures=20 can be seen at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3D4291366131&code=3D566= 2024&mode=3Dinvite

I=20 should have my transition training completed sometime this week and = will=20 hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can=92t wait and still = can=92t find the=20 words=85

Kevin

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C33FA3.D69F9E70-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 14:23:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:23:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ALternator Woes Message-ID: <28B056BF.38566674.0086622B@aol.com> I'll have to go to the hangar and get the number, I still have the box. I believe it comes off a late 1980s chrysler. It is a perfect match, the only mod you need is to add one washer when mounting. It does not have a built in voltage regulator. From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 14:39:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Velocity_AZ) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:39:13 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My wife, Brooke, worked side by side with me about 70% of the time and when she didn't work with me, she supported the projection 100% - she is truly amazing. We had the top half of our fuselage stored in our living room for about 6 months. Sadly enough, no sister (like her) - the mold was broken! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:32 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:First Flight Yea, Does your wife have a sister? It was great to see her involved in the aircraft like that :)) - the best my (ex) girlfriend ever did was go to get me some lunch as I sweated it out in the hanger.......... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:34 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:First Flight --- Velocity_AZ wrote: > After 3 years and 4 months of building, Kevin, Great pics! I showed my wife and told her I could have kicked out our plane in 3 1/2 yrs too if she had just helped w/ the layups like yours did... Congrats, Pat (XLRG, 5 yrs, 4500 hrs and counting) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 15:19:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:19:40 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:ALternator Woes References: <64C037BA.209EB353.0086622B@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F01987C.6040300@tnstaafl.net> Bill, Got a part number, manufacturer, Lester number? Scott Tstockmn@aol.com wrote: > Guys, > I use an autozone alternator ($29) that is the exact duplicate of the standard lycoming alternator and puts out about 65 amps. I bought a solid state voltage regulator from aircraft spruce. Both have worked great for over 200 hrs. I actually bought a second one a few month ago when they went on sale for half price ($14.50)just to have a spare. > > > Bill > 173FGE with an IO360 > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 15:42:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:42:49 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, consider yourself a very lucky man!- really- I see so many of us working with at best "approval", and very, very rarely actual participation. Hope that you will come to Dallas as Mike suggested, I'm located at Denton, about 15 minutes flight from Mike and Milton's home base at McKinney. And it is always good to see a completed project to get the motivation level up! :) Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Velocity_AZ Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:39 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:First Flight My wife, Brooke, worked side by side with me about 70% of the time and when she didn't work with me, she supported the projection 100% - she is truly amazing. We had the top half of our fuselage stored in our living room for about 6 months. Sadly enough, no sister (like her) - the mold was broken! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:32 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:First Flight Yea, Does your wife have a sister? It was great to see her involved in the aircraft like that :)) - the best my (ex) girlfriend ever did was go to get me some lunch as I sweated it out in the hanger.......... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:34 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:First Flight --- Velocity_AZ wrote: > After 3 years and 4 months of building, Kevin, Great pics! I showed my wife and told her I could have kicked out our plane in 3 1/2 yrs too if she had just helped w/ the layups like yours did... Congrats, Pat (XLRG, 5 yrs, 4500 hrs and counting) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 19:41:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:41:18 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C33FD6.733302E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dean, Have you finished your stakes already? Mike Pollock EAA Tech Councelor #4357 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas, Tx. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C33FD6.733302E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Dean,

Have you finished your stakes=20 already?

Mike Pollock

EAA Tech Councelor = #4357

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf = Of=20 dean fitzbag
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over = jigs

I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec=20 Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for = free. =20 I live about 45 miles north of Dallas,=20 Tx.

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C33FD6.733302E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 20:04:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (dean fitzbag) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:04:02 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs References: <1c1.bf6cd20.2c32b835@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C33FD9.A01FD640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 903-364-2620 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pinkav8or@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:11 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs ok i,d like to get it is there a # i can call you at to make = arrangements thanks=20 Ray Watkins ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C33FD9.A01FD640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

903-364-2620

----- Original Message -----

From: Pinkav8or@aol.com

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 5:11=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

ok i,d like to get it is there a # i can call you = at to=20 make arrangements thanks

Ray Watkins=20

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C33FD9.A01FD640-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 1 23:16:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (dean fitzbag) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:16:32 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs References: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C33FF4.84B30240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. When I apply = a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving somewhere. = I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to no avail. Using a = brush taped to a long stick I have been painting the back bulkhead, but = so far, no luck. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Pollock=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Hi Dean, Have you finished your stakes already? Mike Pollock EAA Tech Councelor #4357 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec Balic. = They are available to anyone who needs them for free. I live about 45 = miles north of Dallas, Tx. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C33FF4.84B30240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. = When I=20 apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving=20 somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to = no=20 avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting = the back=20 bulkhead, but so far, no luck.

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Pollock

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 1:41=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Hi Dean,

Have you finished your stakes=20 already?

Mike Pollock

EAA Tech Councelor = #4357

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean=20 fitzbag
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over = jigs

I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec=20 Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for=20 free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas,=20 Tx.

------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C33FF4.84B30240-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 00:15:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:15:26 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C33FFC.BF3BED70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get some small nylon tubing. Hold one end to your ear, and snake the other end around like you are sniffing for something. You'll hear it when you come across the leak. To patch the leak, put a slight vacuum on the tank, and dab on some epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. When I apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to no avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting the back bulkhead, but so far, no luck. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Pollock To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Hi Dean, Have you finished your stakes already? Mike Pollock EAA Tech Councelor #4357 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas, Tx. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C33FFC.BF3BED70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Get some small nylon = tubing. Hold=20 one end to your ear, and snake the other end around like you are = sniffing for=20 something. You'll hear it when you come across the = leak.

To patch the leak, put a slight = vacuum on=20 the tank, and dab on some epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil.

Brian Michalk <http://www.michalk.com>
Life is what you make = of it ...=20 never wish you had done something.
Aviator, experimental aircraft = builder,=20 motorcyclist, SCUBA diver
musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and = mostly=20 single

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf = Of=20 dean fitzbag
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17 = PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over=20 jigs

Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. = When I=20 apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving=20 somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to = no=20 avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting = the back=20 bulkhead, but so far, no luck.

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Pollock

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 1:41=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Hi Dean,

Have you finished your stakes=20 already?

Mike Pollock

EAA Tech Councelor = #4357

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean=20 fitzbag
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over = jigs

I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec=20 Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for = free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas,=20 Tx.

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C33FFC.BF3BED70-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 03:05:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocity xl) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:05:25 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs References:

Message-ID: <004301c3403f$023d6080$2a84cf0c@attbi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C3400C.1C192120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why has velocity still not gone to a closed fuel cell? Boy would it = solve=20 a lot of problems! Maybe cause more I do not know. Ron=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: dean fitzbag=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:16 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. When I = apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving = somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to no = avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting the = back bulkhead, but so far, no luck. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Pollock=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Hi Dean, Have you finished your stakes already? Mike Pollock EAA Tech Councelor #4357 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec Balic. = They are available to anyone who needs them for free. I live about = 45 miles north of Dallas, Tx. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C3400C.1C192120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Why has velocity still not gone to a closed fuel = cell? Boy=20 would it solve

a lot of problems! Maybe cause more I do not=20 know.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 dean = fitzbag=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 4:16=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. = When I=20 apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving=20 somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to = no=20 avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting = the back=20 bulkhead, but so far, no luck.

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Pollock

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 1:41=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Hi Dean,

Have you finished your stakes=20 already?

Mike Pollock

EAA Tech Councelor = #4357

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean=20 fitzbag
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over = jigs

I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec=20 Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for = free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas,=20 Tx.

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C3400C.1C192120-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 02:47:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (jack davis) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:47:05 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight References: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C3401A.4FF6AF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin, Congratulations. After engine break-in you should see CHTs drop by 25 = or more degrees. Also, since your CHTs are so high, it is no wonder = that your oil temps are running high. I had a lot of trouble initially = with high CHTs. I installed baffles around the cylinders so that only = about 1.5 inches was open at the bottom (I got this off of Burt Rutans = web page). It works wonderfully. Also, make sure you have VGs = installed on your NACAs and make absolutely sure they are set right = (i.e., the difference between the front and the rear separation distance = of the VGs must be 0.75 inches). Good luck. I have almost 200 hours on my Std Elite RG and it is running = wonderfully. I'm currently getting my instrument ticket in it and it is = just a blast. Cheers . . . Jack ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Velocity_AZ=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:27 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight After 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike = Pollock, Velocity owner and test pilot, made the first flights of our = Velocity, N111VX. My wife and I flew chase with Milt Mersky and Dave = Bertram in Milt's & Mike's Velocity. =20 Elite Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear Empty Weight 1505 Re-Man IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression pistons M-T Prop Single oil cooler (in front) Downdraft cooling Presently in primer, no interior (just seats) =20 Saturday 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it's = hot in Scottsdale, AZ now). CHTs were high (over 400) on taxi. She = flew beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the oil temp = was slowly rising. At 245 degrees, Mike decided to land. The lowest = oil temp on descent was 230. Mike said that the wire duct was quite = hot. CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil reached around 256 = and CHTs reach around 467 by the time Mike taxied back and shutdown. We = were expecting high temps until the engine was broken in but the oil = temp was concerning. Duane Swing suggested that a small NACA scoop in = the fuselage at the forward end of the pilot wire duct that holds both = oil lines would help by keeping the lines cooler in flight. We put in = the NACA scoop (or hole for the time being) and the next morning we flew = again. CHTs were below 425 (mostly around 370-380) and oil temp was = below 245 the entire time. Between the engine slowing breaking in and = the small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for = almost 2 hours in the local practice area around 6,000'. Mike did slow = flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests - everything went fine - = she flew beautifully. =20 Pictures can be seen at: = http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3D4291366131&code=3D5662024&mode=3D= invite =20 I should have my transition training completed sometime this week and = will hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can't wait and = still can't find the words. =20 Kevin ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C3401A.4FF6AF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kevin,

Congratulations. After engine = break-in you=20 should see CHTs drop by 25 or more degrees. Also, since your CHTs = are so=20 high, it is no wonder that your oil temps are running high. I had = a lot of=20 trouble initially with high CHTs. I installed baffles around the = cylinders=20 so that only about 1.5 inches was open at the bottom (I got this off of = Burt=20 Rutans web page). It works wonderfully. Also, make sure you = have VGs=20 installed on your NACAs and make absolutely sure they are set right = (i.e., the=20 difference between the front and the rear separation distance of the VGs = must be=20 0.75 inches).

Good luck. I have almost 200 = hours on my Std=20 Elite RG and it is running wonderfully. I'm currently getting my=20 instrument ticket in it and it is just a blast.

Cheers . . .

Jack

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Velocity_AZ=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 = 2:27 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:First = Flight

After=20 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike Pollock, = Velocity=20 owner and test pilot, made the first flights of our Velocity, = N111VX. My wife and I flew chase = with Milt=20 Mersky and Dave Bertram in Milt’s & Mike’s=20 Velocity.

Elite=20 Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear

Empty=20 Weight 1505

Re-Man=20 IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression=20 pistons

M-T=20 Prop

Single=20 oil cooler (in front)

Downdraft=20 cooling

Presently=20 in primer, no interior (just = seats)

Saturday=20 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it’s hot = in Scottsdale,=20 AZ now). CHTs = were high=20 (over 400) on taxi. She = flew=20 beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the oil temp was = slowly=20 rising. At 245 degrees, = Mike=20 decided to land. The = lowest oil=20 temp on descent was 230. = Mike=20 said that the wire duct was quite hot. =20 CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil reached around 256 and = CHTs reach=20 around 467 by the time Mike taxied back and shutdown. We were expecting high temps = until the=20 engine was broken in but the oil temp was concerning. Duane Swing suggested that a = small=20 NACA scoop in the fuselage at the forward end of the pilot wire duct = that=20 holds both oil lines would help by keeping the lines cooler in = flight. We put in the NACA scoop (or = hole for=20 the time being) and the next morning we flew again. CHTs were below 425 (mostly = around=20 370-380) and oil temp was below 245 the entire time. Between the engine slowing = breaking in=20 and the small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for almost 2 hours = in the=20 local practice area around 6,000’. =20 Mike did slow flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests = –=20 everything went fine – she flew=20 beautifully.

Pictures=20 can be seen at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3D4291366131&code=3D566= 2024&mode=3Dinvite

I=20 should have my transition training completed sometime this week and = will=20 hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can’t wait and still = can’t find the=20 words…

Kevin

------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C3401A.4FF6AF40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 03:59:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (dean fitzbag) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:59:43 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs References: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3401C.142D9760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the vacuum? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian Michalk=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Get some small nylon tubing. Hold one end to your ear, and snake the = other end around like you are sniffing for something. You'll hear it = when you come across the leak. To patch the leak, put a slight vacuum on the tank, and dab on some = epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. When I = apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving = somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to no = avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting the = back bulkhead, but so far, no luck. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Pollock=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Hi Dean, Have you finished your stakes already? Mike Pollock EAA Tech Councelor #4357 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org = [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec = Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for free. I live = about 45 miles north of Dallas, Tx. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3401C.142D9760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the = vacuum?

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Michalk

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 6:15=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Get some small nylon = tubing. =20 Hold one end to your ear, and snake the other end around like you are = sniffing=20 for something. You'll hear it when you come across the=20 leak.

To patch the leak, put a slight = vacuum on=20 the tank, and dab on some epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil.

Brian Michalk <http://www.michalk.com>
Life is what you = make of it=20 ... never wish you had done something.
Aviator, experimental = aircraft=20 builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver
musician, home-brewer, = entrepreneur and=20 mostly single

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of=20 dean fitzbag
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:roll=20 over jigs

Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very = well. When I=20 apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving=20 somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but = to no=20 avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been = painting the=20 back bulkhead, but so far, no luck.

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Mike Pollock

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, = 2003 1:41=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Hi Dean,

Have you finished your = stakes=20 already?

Mike Pollock

EAA Tech Councelor = #4357

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean=20 fitzbag
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over=20 jigs

I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec = Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them = for=20 free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas,=20 = Tx.

= ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3401C.142D9760-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 04:21:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:21:32 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3401F.20568210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's opposite of the way to apply pressure. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the vacuum? ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3401F.20568210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It's opposite of the way to apply=20 pressure.

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf = Of=20 dean fitzbag
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over=20 jigs

I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the = vacuum?

= ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3401F.20568210-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 06:05:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:05:17 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Leak chasing strakes. Message-ID: <4a.1f2b3c9a.2c33c20d@wmconnect.com> --part1_4a.1f2b3c9a.2c33c20d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll repeat an email that I sent years ago. When pressure testing your strakes (I used a vacuum) replace the fuel cap with a plumbers plug from Home Depot. As I recall several people had a problem of leaking fuel caps. Mel Bina STD RG --part1_4a.1f2b3c9a.2c33c20d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll repeat an email that= I sent years ago. When pressure testing your strakes (I used a vacuum= ) replace the fuel cap with a plumbers plug from Home Depot. As I reca= ll several people had a problem of leaking fuel caps.

Mel Bina STD RG --part1_4a.1f2b3c9a.2c33c20d_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 11:12:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:12:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Leaking Tanks References:

Message-ID: <3F02B013.EC456479@comcast.net> dean, > Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. > When I apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the > air leaving somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I > can see, but to no avail. The tubing trick Brian mentioned really works!! Check especially the CORNERS. If it was easy to get to, you'd have sealed it right the first time. That's where my leaks were. Once the leaks are located, dabble some epoxy on the leaking spot. To pull the epoxy into the leak, apply suction by mouth to a nylon hose attached to the fuel drain. You only need to maintain suction long enough to get the epoxy to flow into the leak. You want the epoxy to stop IN the leak, not to flow completely through it. If you "taste" the epoxy, you've probably sucked too long. After the epoxy sets, try the pressure test again. If it still leaks, repeat the above until it doesn't. Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 11:22:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:22:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Leak chasing strakes. References: <4a.1f2b3c9a.2c33c20d@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: <3F02B24D.F973F283@comcast.net> PUSHERPILOT@wmconnect.com wrote: > > I'll repeat an email that I sent years ago. When pressure > testing your strakes (I used a vacuum) replace the fuel cap > with a plumbers plug from Home Depot. As I recall several > people had a problem of leaking fuel caps. Yes, my old style thermos bottle cap was the biggest leak of all. Dave Black From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 12:35:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 07:35:19 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Leak chasing strakes. References: <4a.1f2b3c9a.2c33c20d@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: <001a01c3408e$043dd280$8ea2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3406C.7CC77D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My caps leaked too. =20 Coat the large rubber O rings with Vaseline and take the center nut off, = and coat that little O ring too. You will need to do this to minimize = future flying leak problems anyway - and keeping rain out too. I had to = tighten the center nut to get a good seal. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PUSHERPILOT@wmconnect.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 1:05 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Leak chasing strakes. I'll repeat an email that I sent years ago. When pressure testing = your strakes (I used a vacuum) replace the fuel cap with a plumbers plug = from Home Depot. As I recall several people had a problem of leaking = fuel caps.=20 Mel Bina STD RG=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3406C.7CC77D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My caps leaked too.

Coat the large rubber O rings with = Vaseline and take=20 the center nut off, and coat that little O ring too. You will need = to do=20 this to minimize future flying leak problems anyway - and keeping rain = out=20 too. I had to tighten the center nut to get a good = seal.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 PUSHERPILOT@wmconnect.com =

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 = 1:05=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Leak = chasing=20 strakes.

I'll repeat = an email=20 that I sent years ago. When pressure testing your strakes (I = used a=20 vacuum) replace the fuel cap with a plumbers plug from Home Depot. = As I=20 recall several people had a problem of leaking fuel caps.

Mel = Bina=20 STD RG ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3406C.7CC77D40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 2 12:52:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 07:52:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs References:

Message-ID: <002801c34090$6bc75640$8ea2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3406E.E45A28C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd be careful using anything other than lung power to pressurize or = pull vacuum on the tanks. Velocity says to limit the pressure to no more = than 1500' on an altimeter which is less than 1 psi. Using any more = pressure than this can create an even larger leak. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: dean fitzbag=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:59 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the vacuum? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian Michalk=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Get some small nylon tubing. Hold one end to your ear, and snake = the other end around like you are sniffing for something. You'll hear = it when you come across the leak. To patch the leak, put a slight vacuum on the tank, and dab on some = epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. When I = apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving = somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to no = avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting the = back bulkhead, but so far, no luck. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Pollock=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Hi Dean, Have you finished your stakes already? Mike Pollock EAA Tech Councelor #4357 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org = [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec = Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for free. I live = about 45 miles north of Dallas, Tx. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3406E.E45A28C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'd be careful using anything other than lung = power to=20 pressurize or pull vacuum on the tanks. Velocity says to limit the = pressure to=20 no more than 1500' on an altimeter which is less than 1 psi. Using = any=20 more pressure than this can create an even larger leak.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 dean = fitzbag=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 10:59=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the = vacuum?

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Michalk

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 6:15=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Get some small nylon = tubing. =20 Hold one end to your ear, and snake the other end around like you = are=20 sniffing for something. You'll hear it when you come across = the=20 leak.

To patch the leak, put a = slight vacuum=20 on the tank, and dab on some epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil.

Brian Michalk <http://www.michalk.com>
Life = is=20 what you make of it ... never wish you had done = something.
Aviator,=20 experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA = diver
musician,=20 home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of=20 dean fitzbag
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:roll=20 over jigs

Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very = well. When=20 I apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving = somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, = but to no=20 avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been = painting the=20 back bulkhead, but so far, no luck.

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Mike Pollock

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, = 2003 1:41=20 PM

Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:roll over=20 jigs

Hi Dean,

Have you finished your = stakes=20 already?

Mike Pollock

EAA Tech Councelor=20 #4357

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean=20 fitzbag
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over=20 jigs

I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form = Alec=20 Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them = for=20 free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas,=20 = Tx.
=

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3406E.E45A28C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 02:48:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:48:57 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs References:

Message-ID: <004701c34105$44da3960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C340CA.98309CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dean, You can just use a shop vacuum, but you need to be sure to provide = enough "leak" in the system so that the vacuum cleaner motor gets enough = airflow to cool itself, or you will burn it up. A safer procedure is to = use a 3" or 4" venturi, if you can find one, from a really old airplane = to provide the vacuum to the tank, and get the flow through the venturi = with the vacuum cleaner. That assures LOTS of airflow through the = vacuum cleaner, and you can just seal everything from the vacuum port on = the venturi to the tank. You might still need to provide some vacuum = relief to keep from overstressing your tank if the leak is very small; = those old venturis can produce a reasonable vacuum. =20 Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message -----=20 From: dean fitzbag=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:59 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the vacuum? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brian Michalk=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Get some small nylon tubing. Hold one end to your ear, and snake = the other end around like you are sniffing for something. You'll hear = it when you come across the leak. To patch the leak, put a slight vacuum on the tank, and dab on some = epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very well. When I = apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving = somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, but to no = avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been painting the = back bulkhead, but so far, no luck. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Pollock=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs Hi Dean, Have you finished your stakes already? Mike Pollock EAA Tech Councelor #4357 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org = [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean fitzbag Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over jigs I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form Alec = Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them for free. I live = about 45 miles north of Dallas, Tx. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C340CA.98309CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dean,

You can just use a shop vacuum, but you need to = be sure to=20 provide enough "leak" in the system so that the vacuum cleaner motor = gets enough=20 airflow to cool itself, or you will burn it up. A safer procedure = is to=20 use a 3" or 4" venturi, if you can find one, from a really old airplane = to=20 provide the vacuum to the tank, and get the flow through the venturi = with the=20 vacuum cleaner. That assures LOTS of airflow through the vacuum = cleaner,=20 and you can just seal everything from the vacuum port on the = venturi to the=20 tank. You might still need to provide some vacuum relief to keep = from=20 overstressing your tank if the leak is very small; those old venturis = can=20 produce a reasonable vacuum.

Keith Hallsten

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 dean = fitzbag=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 7:59=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

I'll try that tomorrow. Any ideas on how to apply the = vacuum?

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Michalk

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 6:15=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:roll = over=20 jigs

Get some small nylon = tubing. =20 Hold one end to your ear, and snake the other end around like you = are=20 sniffing for something. You'll hear it when you come across = the=20 leak.

To patch the leak, put a = slight vacuum=20 on the tank, and dab on some epoxy/bubbles/cab-o-sil.

Brian Michalk <http://www.michalk.com>
Life is what you = make of it=20 ... never wish you had done something.
Aviator, experimental = aircraft=20 builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver
musician, home-brewer, = entrepreneur=20 and mostly single

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of=20 dean fitzbag
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:17=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:roll=20 over jigs

Yes, except for leak testing which is not going very = well. When=20 I apply a small pressure I can hear the hissing of the air leaving = somewhere. I've applied soapy water everywhere I can see, = but to no=20 avail. Using a brush taped to a long stick I have been = painting the=20 back bulkhead, but so far, no luck.

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Mike Pollock

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, = 2003 1:41=20 PM

Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:roll over=20 jigs

Hi Dean,

Have you finished your = stakes=20 already?

Mike Pollock

EAA Tech Councelor=20 #4357

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of dean=20 fitzbag
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:roll over=20 jigs

I am finished using the roll over jigs that I got form = Alec=20 Balic. They are available to anyone who needs them = for=20 free. I live about 45 miles north of Dallas,=20 = Tx.
=

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C340CA.98309CC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 03:55:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:55:15 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References:

<004701c34105$44da3960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <3F039B13.1030205@tnstaafl.net> I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but Duane asked so here goes. Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. Here's how I broke them down. 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit 1/2 good stuff 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good stuff 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 good stuff 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff 1 page Electronics, good stuff 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the current implementation sucks. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 03:55:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:55:34 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References:

<004701c34105$44da3960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <3F039B26.7000508@tnstaafl.net> I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but Duane asked so here goes. Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. Here's how I broke them down. 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit 1/2 good stuff 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good stuff 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 good stuff 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff 1 page Electronics, good stuff 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the current implementation sucks. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 04:37:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 23:37:26 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Window defroster References: Message-ID: <002501c34114$6c187780$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Brian: Is there a reason why I am not receiving the REFLECTOR. I have sent several messages to be reinstated and I have no reply. Would you please provide me with an answer. Fred Marconi XL/RG N244FM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Michalk" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:35 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Window defroster > I don't know if my idea will work, but I installed an exit cowl flap aft of > my oil cooler. > > If it's really cold, close the flap, and all of the air that goes through > the cooler goes into the cabin. It allows me to regulate the amount of air > flowing through the cooler, so I should be able to keep engine temps right > where I want them, since the Franklin does not have a vernatherm. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com > > [mailto:owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com]On Behalf Of Tstockmn@aol.com > > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:06 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org; "Greg Poole" > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Window defroster > > > > > > I've been flying two winters here in Ohio and have yet to have > > the need for the defroster. Maybe just lucky. > > - > To change your email address, send an email to majordomo@tvbf.org with the body: > subscribe reflector > unsubscribe reflector > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 04:44:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 20:44:41 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:173 Front Seat Ballast In-Reply-To: <0AA74D1A.664099FC.0BE7D1EB@aol.com> Message-ID: <004101c34115$727e3be0$6400a8c0@BigAl> > 25# of lead shot you simply move from the nose to behind the > back seat (roughly the CG); and it's with you when you need > it again. Well Al to each his own but I spent 5 years obsessing over every once of weight that went into the bird. (Brendan said my XL was in the top 5 lightest non-factory XL's) The thought of carrying 25# of utterly useless weight around everywhere I go kinda makes me feel queasy. :-) Man that is a suitcase worth of weight. Just wasted? All the time? Like I said though, to each his own. Rob; I was referring mostly to a different leg of the same flight, or simply bringing it back home. If it's easy to move from nose to behind the seat, it is even easier to leave it in the hangar when you know you don't need it. Al From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 13:10:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Milton Mersky) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:10:05 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References:

<004701c34105$44da3960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <3F039B13.1030205@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F041D1D.7010403@airmail.net> Scott: Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. Milt Scott Derrick wrote: > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > Duane asked so here goes. > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > Here's how I broke them down. > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > 1/2 good stuff > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > stuff > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > good stuff > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > current implementation sucks. > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 14:13:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:13:08 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Message-ID: I'm in the process of converting my Matcos to Clevelands on my XL RG. I received the spacers and bolts from Velocity this week. (I'm getting the wheel assemblies from a different source....but that's a long sad story that I won't burden you with today). My question was, in the stuff that was shipped to me under a "give me everything I need" order, there were two phenolic-type boards approx. 4" x 6" x 0.10". They appear to be well suited for insulation. Are these cut and drilled to act as heat isolators so the brakes won't heat up the leg and turn it to mush??? If anyone has a suggestion, or even better, knows what they are talking about, it would be appreciated if you would share. If I don't get smarter here shortly, I may have to break down and call Velocity. I kind of hate to because its not totally fair to them since I didn't buy the wheel/brake assembly from Velo. So, I'm needy today. Chuck N27GV Geez Scott, I wish I had a back issue of VV that explained this!!! From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 14:06:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 06:06:34 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1057237594.3f042a5a9a8dc@webmail.123mail.net> Yes, it's to insulate the gear leg from the brake assembly, this is something that Frank recommended to us while we were at Head Start. I plan to do install the phenolic under the backing plate. Brett Quoting Chuck Jensen : > I'm in the process of converting my Matcos to > Clevelands on my XL RG. I > received the spacers and bolts from Velocity this > week. (I'm getting the > wheel assemblies from a different source....but that's > a long sad story that > I won't burden you with today). > > My question was, in the stuff that was shipped to me > under a "give me > everything I need" order, there were two phenolic-type > boards approx. 4" x > 6" x 0.10". They appear to be well suited for > insulation. Are these cut > and drilled to act as heat isolators so the brakes > won't heat up the leg and > turn it to mush??? > > If anyone has a suggestion, or even better, knows what > they are talking > about, it would be appreciated if you would share. If > I don't get smarter > here shortly, I may have to break down and call > Velocity. I kind of hate to > because its not totally fair to them since I didn't > buy the wheel/brake > assembly from Velo. So, I'm needy today. > > Chuck > N27GV > > Geez Scott, I wish I had a back issue of VV that > explained this!!! > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 14:27:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:27:28 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Message-ID: <169.20fd600d.2c358940@aol.com> --part1_169.20fd600d.2c358940_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. Install by drilling 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate. I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable. Odd Jorgensen --part1_169.20fd600d.2c358940_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. I= nstall by drilling 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate. <= BR> I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable.
Odd Jorgensen --part1_169.20fd600d.2c358940_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 14:31:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:31:01 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Message-ID: <157.20d27d73.2c358a15@aol.com> --part1_157.20d27d73.2c358a15_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BTW, if you did not get the assembly from V, then you will have to drill holes in the caliper plates in order to match them to the geometry of the gear leg and location of your brake line and pressure fitting. Odd --part1_157.20d27d73.2c358a15_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BTW, if you did not get the assembly from V, then you=20= will have to drill holes in the caliper plates in order to match them to the= geometry of the gear leg and location of your brake line and pressure fitti= ng.
Odd --part1_157.20d27d73.2c358a15_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 14:45:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:45:00 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes References: <169.20fd600d.2c358940@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F04335C.3080004@tnstaafl.net> What is this material, and where can I get it. I have Matco's but would like to insert it between the leg and the brake. Scott OddJ@aol.com wrote: > Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. Install by drilling > 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate. > I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable. > Odd Jorgensen From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:51:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:51:14 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Message-ID: By way of explanation: When I ordered the aluminum spacers and longer bolts required for the conversion to Cleveland, I told Natalie (V) to include anything else I might need. So, when the shipment arrived, it included these two pieces of phenolic (brown and approx. 4" x 6" x 0.10...same stuff you see used as a heat shield on some electronic equipemnt). By way of answer: Call Natalie at Velocity and order 'em. I don't have any idea on the cost because an invoice wasn't included in the shipment and I haven't seen the bill yet, but it can't be too much. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:45 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes What is this material, and where can I get it. I have Matco's but would like to insert it between the leg and the brake. Scott OddJ@aol.com wrote: > Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. Install by drilling > 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate. > I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable. > Odd Jorgensen _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:21:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:21:10 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: <3F041D1D.7010403@airmail.net> Message-ID: <002201c3416e$5cab15f0$6400a8c0@BigAl> I suggest that those who wish simply reply directly to Duane. Thanks Al Gietzen -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Milton Mersky Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 4:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Scott: Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. Milt Scott Derrick wrote: > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > Duane asked so here goes. > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > Here's how I broke them down. > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > 1/2 good stuff > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > stuff > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > good stuff > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > current implementation sucks. > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:20:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:20:09 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes References: <1057237594.3f042a5a9a8dc@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: <022c01c3416e$35e58c70$9865fea9@tungsten.com> I plan to do install the phenolic under the backing plate. What Phenolic are you going to use? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Ferrell" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:06 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes > Yes, it's to insulate the gear leg from the brake assembly, this is something that Frank recommended to us while we were at Head Start. I plan to do install the phenolic under the backing plate. > > Brett > > Quoting Chuck Jensen : > > > I'm in the process of converting my Matcos to > > Clevelands on my XL RG. I > > received the spacers and bolts from Velocity this > > week. (I'm getting the > > wheel assemblies from a different source....but that's > > a long sad story that > > I won't burden you with today). > > > > My question was, in the stuff that was shipped to me > > under a "give me > > everything I need" order, there were two phenolic-type > > boards approx. 4" x > > 6" x 0.10". They appear to be well suited for > > insulation. Are these cut > > and drilled to act as heat isolators so the brakes > > won't heat up the leg and > > turn it to mush??? > > > > If anyone has a suggestion, or even better, knows what > > they are talking > > about, it would be appreciated if you would share. If > > I don't get smarter > > here shortly, I may have to break down and call > > Velocity. I kind of hate to > > because its not totally fair to them since I didn't > > buy the wheel/brake > > assembly from Velo. So, I'm needy today. > > > > Chuck > > N27GV > > > > Geez Scott, I wish I had a back issue of VV that > > explained this!!! > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:29:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:29:37 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes In-Reply-To: <3F04335C.3080004@tnstaafl.net> References: <169.20fd600d.2c358940@aol.com> <3F04335C.3080004@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <1057242577.3f043dd1ec525@webmail.123mail.net> Or, if you're not inclined to buy from the factory, you can get it from favorite 'AirplaneDepot' - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/phenosheet.php http://www.wicksaircraft.com/gotopage.php?page=69 Sounds like the factory is supplying 1/8", I bought 1/4 which may be too thick (haven't done my pads yet) - I honestly don't remember why I got that thickness now. Brett Quoting Scott Derrick : > What is this material, and where can I get it. I have > Matco's but would > like to insert it between the leg and the brake. > > Scott > > OddJ@aol.com wrote: > > Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. > Install by drilling > > 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing > plate. > > I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is > remarkable. > > Odd Jorgensen > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:04:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:04:36 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34174.6BE17FD0 Content-Type: text/plain I'm glad to hear they make a difference! Setting aside all the other issues, its obvious the Clevelands have a significant mechanical advantage over the Matcos in that they squeeze on the outer radius of the rotor while Matcos squeeze on the inner radius. By calculations on the back of the envelope, that's a 25% to 30% mechanical gain right there. In addition, with the Cleveland pads and hardware being out there in the air stream, cooling should be markedly better than the Matcos, which are kind of "internal" to the wheel and rotor. And, as far as simplicity of installation, there certainly is no comparison. Replacing pads on a Matco makes you wish you had 3 hands instead of 10 thumbs. The real driving force for the decision for me was the extra weight of the XL RG 300. I want to be able to leave skid marks if I'm too ham-handed to nail the numbers on a really short field. In addition to stopping ability, the extra load put on the brakes for the differential braking for steering certainly adds to the heat load and fading of more marginal breaks. Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of OddJ@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:27 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. Install by drilling 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate. I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable. Odd Jorgensen ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34174.6BE17FD0 Content-Type: text/html

I'm glad to hear they make a difference! Setting aside all the other issues, its obvious the Clevelands have a significant mechanical advantage over the Matcos in that they squeeze on the outer radius of the rotor while Matcos squeeze on the inner radius. By calculations on the back of the envelope, that's a 25% to 30% mechanical gain right there. In addition, with the Cleveland pads and hardware being out there in the air stream, cooling should be markedly better than the Matcos, which are kind of "internal" to the wheel and rotor.

And, as far as simplicity of installation, there certainly is no comparison. Replacing pads on a Matco makes you wish you had 3 hands instead of 10 thumbs.

The real driving force for the decision for me was the extra weight of the XL RG 300. I want to be able to leave skid marks if I'm too ham-handed to nail the numbers on a really short field. In addition to stopping ability, the extra load put on the brakes for the differential braking for steering certainly adds to the heat load and fading of more marginal breaks.

Chuck

N27GV

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of OddJ@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:27 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes

Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. Install by drilling 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate.
I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable.
Odd Jorgensen

------_=_NextPart_001_01C34174.6BE17FD0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:28:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:28:51 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References:

<004701c34105$44da3960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <3F039B13.1030205@tnstaafl.net> <3F041D1D.7010403@airmail.net> Message-ID: <023301c3416f$6d9dcfa0$9865fea9@tungsten.com> Scott As far as the VV are concerned I am on the same page but maybe a with a little more tact. I would like to add on thing to the list the way he collects payment leaves a little to be desired. We have all made it to the 21century, and most people do use credit cards for payments, Hell even McDonalds takes them now . Why can't he? Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milton Mersky" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > Scott: > > Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. > > Milt > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > > Duane asked so here goes. > > > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > > > Here's how I broke them down. > > > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > > 1/2 good stuff > > > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > > stuff > > > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > > good stuff > > > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > > current implementation sucks. > > > > Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:36:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:36:28 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Message-ID: Scott, Thanks for the exposition of your views of the Velocity Views (V V). In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, V V provides a good value. If one is looking at V V as solely a source of KPC's, then it is probably not the vehicle of choice. I suggest the real extra value to me is what you inappropriately call Bull Shit. Without the V V, I will not see the authoritative technical information. I would not have the opportunity to better know those at the factory. I would not know about what the factory is doing and planning. I would not see the "stupid builder tricks" and from those learn how not to do things. Without V V, what would be the factual source for those areas that are important to the factory. V V is a place where I get information about people. V V is one place that I get to know Velocity owners. I see this as a component of strengthening the Velocity Owners community. This is an area where builders can share ideas openly. Yes the Reflector does provide a conduit for the exchange of ideas. I would suggest that an analysis of the Reflector postings shows a significant content that you don't consider worthwhile. Even worse, the Reflector can be intimidating because, without editorial control (and there should not be editing in this type of forum) responses can become personal attacks. The vitriolic responses that we often see do not promote free and open communication. Rather, they attempt to beat the opposing opinion out of existence with emotional intimidation rather than factual response. So I would add those responses to the no value count. While I understand that the cost of kits to future builders may not be of immediate concern to those who have already purchased a Velocity. I suggest it will be a concern in the future viability of the company and therefore, the owner community. Yes I understand that it seems like a small addition, but it is an additional cost and higher cost means decreasing buyers. The best way to ensure the continued evolution of the breed is to continue selling kits. When the factory no longer sells kits, the idea conduit will begin to close, interest in Velocity's will decline and the value of the orphans we own will begin to decrease. Since this has been an area of much posturing and venom in the past, I have worked to keep the tone of this note as neutral. If I have failed, I apologize. What I am hoping to encourage is thoughtful responses that provide open communication and meaningful feedback to Duane and Velocity. I hope that others will look at the issues in the broader view and let Duane know their thoughts. Jerry From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:47:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:47:08 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Message-ID: Well, there is the percent that the credit card company takes from the business. Some are as high as 6%. "velocityxlfg" ail.fm> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/03/03 10:28 AM Please respond to reflector Scott As far as the VV are concerned I am on the same page but maybe a with a little more tact. I would like to add on thing to the list the way he collects payment leaves a little to be desired. We have all made it to the 21century, and most people do use credit cards for payments, Hell even McDonalds takes them now . Why can't he? Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milton Mersky" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > Scott: > > Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. > > Milt > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > > Duane asked so here goes. > > > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > > > Here's how I broke them down. > > > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > > 1/2 good stuff > > > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > > stuff > > > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > > good stuff > > > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > > current implementation sucks. > > > > Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 15:54:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (David Doyle) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:54:22 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:VV Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C34140.B5793DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am taken aback that so much is made about what people see wrong with VV (including the price). The publication overall is very helpful and I enjoy the "fluff". As to the price, give me a break!! I bet those complaining about price think nothing of taking their significant other to the movies (twice in a year) or buying their cafe lattes (only 18 in a year). If you are going to complain - make it constructive - how to make it better. And finally - let's be civilized and respectful of others - especially to those who put in a lot of work to put out VV David Doyle ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C34140.B5793DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

I am = taken aback=20 that so much is made about what people see wrong with VV (including the=20 price). The publication overall is very helpful and I enjoy the=20 "fluff". As to the price, give me a break!! = I bet=20 those complaining about price think nothing of taking their significant = other to=20 the movies (twice in a year) or buying their cafe lattes (only 18 in a=20 year).

If you = are going to=20 complain - make it constructive - how to make it better. And = finally -=20 let's be civilized and respectful of others - especially to those = who put=20 in a lot of work to put out VV

David=20 Doyle

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C34140.B5793DC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:41:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:41:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Message-ID: Ron, I suspect it's related to the cost and bother of keeping a Credit Card Terminal. The cost for a CC account with a bank is $20-$25/mth and the CC company, for small companies, keeps up to 3% of the transaction value as their "fee." It may not sound like much but it does add up. Oddly, there is a law which makes it illegal for a merchant to offer a discount for paying cash instead of by credit card. Guess who pushed that legislation through! A compromise would be to be able to pay by PayPal. Since Lavoire probably never receives a single payment greater than $500, there is no charge for the transaction. Don't know what PayPal is?? Really! It's the 21century you know! Get with it! (just joshing) Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of velocityxlfg Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:29 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Scott As far as the VV are concerned I am on the same page but maybe a with a little more tact. I would like to add on thing to the list the way he collects payment leaves a little to be desired. We have all made it to the 21century, and most people do use credit cards for payments, Hell even McDonalds takes them now . Why can't he? Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milton Mersky" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > Scott: > > Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. > > Milt > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > > Duane asked so here goes. > > > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > > > Here's how I broke them down. > > > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > > 1/2 good stuff > > > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > > stuff > > > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > > good stuff > > > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > > current implementation sucks. > > > > Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:14:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:14:51 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: Message-ID: <026f01c34175$da770c80$9865fea9@tungsten.com> Pay pall does charge the person getting the payment . I do not know how much but I have been charged in the past for Usage. But may be a good option For Rick. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > Ron, > > I suspect it's related to the cost and bother of keeping a Credit Card > Terminal. The cost for a CC account with a bank is $20-$25/mth and the CC > company, for small companies, keeps up to 3% of the transaction value as > their "fee." It may not sound like much but it does add up. > > Oddly, there is a law which makes it illegal for a merchant to offer a > discount for paying cash instead of by credit card. Guess who pushed that > legislation through! > > A compromise would be to be able to pay by PayPal. Since Lavoire probably > never receives a single payment greater than $500, there is no charge for > the transaction. > > Don't know what PayPal is?? Really! It's the 21century you know! Get with > it! (just joshing) > > Chuck > N27GV > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of velocityxlfg > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:29 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > > > Scott > As far as the VV are concerned I am on the same page > but maybe a with a little more tact. I would like to add on thing to the > list the way he collects payment leaves a little to be > desired. We have all made it to the 21century, and most people do use > credit cards for payments, Hell even > McDonalds takes them now . Why can't he? > Ron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Milton Mersky" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:10 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > > > > Scott: > > > > Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. > > > > Milt > > > > > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > > > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > > > Duane asked so here goes. > > > > > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > > > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > > > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > > > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > > > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > > > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > > > > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > > > > > Here's how I broke them down. > > > > > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > > > > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > > > > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > > > > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > > > 1/2 good stuff > > > > > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > > > stuff > > > > > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > > > good stuff > > > > > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > > > > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > > > > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > > > > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > > > > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > > > > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > > > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > > > > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > > > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > > > current implementation sucks. > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:52:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:52:19 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3417B.1B62C7B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Oh, by the way, anyone interested in buy some really good Matco brake and wheel assemblies. Their great!!! They'll stop on a dime and give you change. You can trust me. I wouldn't lie to you. All kidding aside, I think the Matcos 600s with the "kit" is a fine fit for standards with smaller engines and all. Unfortunately, with the 300hp in a XL RG, the greater weight and higher landing speeds is just a greater challenge for the brakes that makes the Matcos a little more marginal on short fields. All kidding aside, I will be selling the Matcos in the near future. Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:05 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes I'm glad to hear they make a difference! Setting aside all the other issues, its obvious the Clevelands have a significant mechanical advantage over the Matcos in that they squeeze on the outer radius of the rotor while Matcos squeeze on the inner radius. By calculations on the back of the envelope, that's a 25% to 30% mechanical gain right there. In addition, with the Cleveland pads and hardware being out there in the air stream, cooling should be markedly better than the Matcos, which are kind of "internal" to the wheel and rotor. And, as far as simplicity of installation, there certainly is no comparison. Replacing pads on a Matco makes you wish you had 3 hands instead of 10 thumbs. The real driving force for the decision for me was the extra weight of the XL RG 300. I want to be able to leave skid marks if I'm too ham-handed to nail the numbers on a really short field. In addition to stopping ability, the extra load put on the brakes for the differential braking for steering certainly adds to the heat load and fading of more marginal breaks. Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of OddJ@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:27 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. Install by drilling 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate. I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable. Odd Jorgensen ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3417B.1B62C7B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Oh, by the way, anyone interested in buy some really good Matco brake and wheel assemblies. Their great!!! They'll stop on a dime and give you change. You can trust me. I wouldn't lie to you.

All kidding aside, I think the Matcos 600s with the "kit" is a fine fit for standards with smaller engines and all. Unfortunately, with the 300hp in a XL RG, the greater weight and higher landing speeds is just a greater challenge for the brakes that makes the Matcos a little more marginal on short fields.

All kidding aside, I will be selling the Matcos in the near future.

Chuck

N27GV

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:05 AM
To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes

I'm glad to hear they make a difference! Setting aside all the other issues, its obvious the Clevelands have a significant mechanical advantage over the Matcos in that they squeeze on the outer radius of the rotor while Matcos squeeze on the inner radius. By calculations on the back of the envelope, that's a 25% to 30% mechanical gain right there. In addition, with the Cleveland pads and hardware being out there in the air stream, cooling should be markedly better than the Matcos, which are kind of "internal" to the wheel and rotor.

And, as far as simplicity of installation, there certainly is no comparison. Replacing pads on a Matco makes you wish you had 3 hands instead of 10 thumbs.

The real driving force for the decision for me was the extra weight of the XL RG 300. I want to be able to leave skid marks if I'm too ham-handed to nail the numbers on a really short field. In addition to stopping ability, the extra load put on the brakes for the differential braking for steering certainly adds to the heat load and fading of more marginal breaks.

Chuck

N27GV

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of OddJ@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:27 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes

Yes, they help to shield the gear leg from the heat. Install by drilling 4 holes and install between gear leg and backing plate.
I just replaced my Matcos and the difference is remarkable.
Odd Jorgensen

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3417B.1B62C7B0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:24:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dan Smalley) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:24:44 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: "VV is it worth it?" References: Message-ID: <003101c34177$3b901d80$b9b841d8@daniel> Hi to all I will be happy to support the VV for years to come. It is of value to me for many reasons. Thank you to the Velocity Team for spending their time and effort to write the articles. It is always harder to be positive and support progress than it is to be critical of miner short commings. Thank you Velocity Team. Dan Smalley From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:30:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeff Barnes) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 10:30:18 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: Message-ID: <3F044C0A.F2EA3CF3@sbcglobal.net> Well said Jerry, with far more restraint than I might apply. I love every page of Velocity Views. I take it as a whole. I'm also taking two copies today for flight to ORD-PHX cuz that's where I catch up on my reading. Thanks for reminding me to RENEW to VV TODAY ! As for credit card companies and middleman services, many charge 7 and 8%. I hope I don't get so feeble in my old age as to complain about writing a check or posting a letter, both of which are still the mainstream 21st century techniques for paying bills. Complaining about the bills, that's human nature. As for your opinions Scott, how's your Eulogy looking these days ? Your entitled to them, of course, but please lighten up on the profanity. You're setting off my spam monitor, and we've always had an understanding to keep profanity off the Reflector. Besides, profanity is the crutch of inarticulate mother-f*&(%rs. Love ya all ! Happy Independence Day, and God Bless America ! Best Regards, Jeff Barnes XL-RG slow-building Jerry.Brainard@Anthem.com wrote: > > Scott, > > Thanks for the exposition of your views of the Velocity Views (V V). > > In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, V V provides a good value. > If one is looking at V V as solely a source of KPC's, then it is probably > not the vehicle of choice. > > I suggest the real extra value to me is what you inappropriately call Bull > Shit. Without the V V, I will not see the authoritative technical > information. I would not have the opportunity to better know those at the > factory. I would not know about what the factory is doing and planning. I > would not see the "stupid builder tricks" and from those learn how not to > do things. Without V V, what would be the factual source for those areas > that are important to the factory. > > V V is a place where I get information about people. V V is one place that > I get to know Velocity owners. I see this as a component of strengthening > the Velocity Owners community. This is an area where builders can share > ideas openly. > > Yes the Reflector does provide a conduit for the exchange of ideas. I > would suggest that an analysis of the Reflector postings shows a > significant content that you don't consider worthwhile. Even worse, the > Reflector can be intimidating because, without editorial control (and there > should not be editing in this type of forum) responses can become personal > attacks. The vitriolic responses that we often see do not promote free and > open communication. Rather, they attempt to beat the opposing opinion out > of existence with emotional intimidation rather than factual response. So > I would add those responses to the no value count. > > While I understand that the cost of kits to future builders may not be of > immediate concern to those who have already purchased a Velocity. I > suggest it will be a concern in the future viability of the company and > therefore, the owner community. Yes I understand that it seems like a > small addition, but it is an additional cost and higher cost means > decreasing buyers. The best way to ensure the continued evolution of the > breed is to continue selling kits. When the factory no longer sells kits, > the idea conduit will begin to close, interest in Velocity's will decline > and the value of the orphans we own will begin to decrease. > > Since this has been an area of much posturing and venom in the past, I have > worked to keep the tone of this note as neutral. If I have failed, I > apologize. What I am hoping to encourage is thoughtful responses that > provide open communication and meaningful feedback to Duane and Velocity. > I hope that others will look at the issues in the broader view and let > Duane know their thoughts. > > Jerry > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:38:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:38:34 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Message-ID: Yeah, but I agree with Scott.....even though I may use different verbiage. I like the VV and read most of it cover to cover. However, all that stuff on Williamsburg annoyed me. If I wanted to know about Williamsburg I would find it on the internet or even, dare a say, a travel magazine. I have noticed appeals to us about submitting articles to fill VV. I respect this request, but if I just want to read fluff, I will read Jana's "People Magazine". That is not the kind of reading I do......I like technical/how to articles and such. I want new developments (new rudder pedals), updates, pictures (like the twin building progress....or the two place version that was talked about), HOW TO's (like installing auto-pilot's or installing a headliner) and information on events. But focused on my dream....uh, Velocity. I enjoy VV, but I think the internet is a MUCH better forum. Even though I respect that not everyone has access, I feel this is an EXTREMELY weak argument for not more quickly moving to the web for business support. Especially since not everyone subscribes to VV.....they all can, but don't. Same thing with the internet, they can subscribe and get all of its benefits, but choose not to. IMHO, we are way past the point when the web is bleeding edge technology....or even leading edge (heck, I have had a web presence since the mid 90's, 9 years ago.....and I am not in technology as a business. Today it is just another, and IMHO, much more powerful tool) Folks move, sell, die etc, I understand. But, based on that, I do not see how VV serves a need better. (some folks don't have mail boxes....ok, very small percentage or the RV types. RV as in Recreational Vehicle, not Van's stuff but that is not who is being catered to). I think it was mentioned that about 450 kits have been sold. That being the case, it would take about $167.00 in postage and well less than a ream of paper to mail every kit purchaser a letter to find out if the web would be a more useful forum or if they have access.....but wait, we could just publish it in the VV. Oh, not everyone subscribes to that. Never mind. I know Mr. Swing made his appeal in the last issue and I am encouraged by the interest. It just seems at this point in time this is a no brainer. I do not think VV is a profit center for anyone (even though I hope money is made.....profit is good). I pay only $10.00 a month for my web hosting. The web seems to have EVERY advantage with the ONLY drawback other than the initial set-up being not everyone chooses to access the net......but, everyone can (i.e. can we say Library). I admit I like the net a lot. I go to the net before and usually instead of the yellow pages or Best Buy. So I admit a bias. But it is a bias based on experience. Also, I concede that most of y'all would agree with most of this since you are obviously already linked to the rest of the world via email. It seems the hold up is a resistance to what is now very established technology. Kinda ironic from a aviation firm. Finally, like I said, I like VV, and look forward to it and want it to continue, but I think it should be the back-up, not the focus. I even enjoy moderate fluff to add an overall flavor. I think the cost is a non issue....I have pissed away a lot more on a lot less....and I am sure I will again....probably tonight As to credit cards, it would make it easier but the extra charges bite. You don't need terminals anymore, programs like QuickBooks will do it online (but is still cost monthly fees and %). As to the not being allowed to give cash discounts.....I know it is only semantics, but I think, cash discounts ARE allowed, charging more for credit is not. Wow, this may be my longest post to this site....or maybe not....uh, sorry. FWIW. HAPPY FOURTH to all (in a country that lets us bitch about stuff like this). Now to call the factory....I gots me a question. All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milton Mersky Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Scott: Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. Milt Scott Derrick wrote: > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > Duane asked so here goes. > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > Here's how I broke them down. > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > 1/2 good stuff > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > stuff > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > good stuff > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > current implementation sucks. > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:49:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 09:49:07 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: Message-ID: <3F045073.7030404@tnstaafl.net> Jerry, Jerry.Brainard@Anthem.com wrote: > I suggest the real extra value to me is what you inappropriately call Bull > Shit. Without the V V, I will not see the authoritative technical > information. I listed the technical information as Good Stuff. > I would not know about what the factory is doing and planning. I listed that as Good Stuff too.. >I would not see the "stupid builder tricks" and from those learn how not to > do things. I listed that as Good Stuff too. Did you actually read my email?? > Without V V, what would be the factual source for those areas > that are important to the factory. Yes, I agree and said so. My point is the fluff out weighs the information about building, repairing and maintaining Velocity's. > V V is a place where I get information about people. V V is one place that > I get to know Velocity owners. I see this as a component of strengthening > the Velocity Owners community. This is an area where builders can share > ideas openly. What is this forum to you if VV is the "one place"?? Not much builder sharing going on in the current VV, that was one of my points. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 16:56:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 08:56:02 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030703084153.03f16e80@mail.adelphia.net> At 10:47 AM 7/3/03 -0400, you wrote: >Well, there is the percent that the credit card company takes from the >business. Some are as high as 6%. Jezuz, Mary and Joseph who are you using as your cc processor? I've never seen a rate over 3%, and that's for selling porn online from an overseas location and payments made to an offshore bank (meaning, a high fraud rate). Paypal is under 3% with no software, application or setup - they just send you a check! Normal rates are down around 1.5-1.75%. I'm not getting the VV 'cause I don't have a Velocity, but really, credit card processing is *simple.* From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 17:11:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 11:11:56 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: <026f01c34175$da770c80$9865fea9@tungsten.com> Message-ID: I think it is 3%- I got dinked by them when someone paid me for an EBAY sale with a credit card.... Still, not a big deal- -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of velocityxlfg Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:15 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Pay pall does charge the person getting the payment . I do not know how much but I have been charged in the past for Usage. But may be a good option For Rick. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > Ron, > > I suspect it's related to the cost and bother of keeping a Credit Card > Terminal. The cost for a CC account with a bank is $20-$25/mth and the CC > company, for small companies, keeps up to 3% of the transaction value as > their "fee." It may not sound like much but it does add up. > > Oddly, there is a law which makes it illegal for a merchant to offer a > discount for paying cash instead of by credit card. Guess who pushed that > legislation through! > > A compromise would be to be able to pay by PayPal. Since Lavoire probably > never receives a single payment greater than $500, there is no charge for > the transaction. > > Don't know what PayPal is?? Really! It's the 21century you know! Get with > it! (just joshing) > > Chuck > N27GV > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of velocityxlfg > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:29 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > > > Scott > As far as the VV are concerned I am on the same page > but maybe a with a little more tact. I would like to add on thing to the > list the way he collects payment leaves a little to be > desired. We have all made it to the 21century, and most people do use > credit cards for payments, Hell even > McDonalds takes them now . Why can't he? > Ron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Milton Mersky" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:10 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > > > > Scott: > > > > Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. > > > > Milt > > > > > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > > > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > > > Duane asked so here goes. > > > > > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > > > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > > > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > > > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > > > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > > > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > > > > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > > > > > Here's how I broke them down. > > > > > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > > > > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > > > > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > > > > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > > > 1/2 good stuff > > > > > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > > > stuff > > > > > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > > > good stuff > > > > > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > > > > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > > > > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > > > > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > > > > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > > > > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > > > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > > > > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > > > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > > > current implementation sucks. > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 17:12:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:12:52 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:VV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <028601c3417d$f5e26c00$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0287_01C34143.49839400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amen David! One night out at a restaurant with your family and you've = paid for a year of VV. My eyebrows have also been raised over the = perspectives so sensitively shared from time to time...no offense to anyone! =20 Personally, I enjoy getting every issue and read it cover to cover. One fine builder just made the point that the newsletter also serves to keep sales going. Owning my own biz I can tell you that part of the game is keeping revenue coming in the front door. I'm sure copies of the VV are made available to prospective buyers. Before I made my choice I = reviewed a number of old issues supplied by a friend who got me sucked in. VV = played a role in my decision. =20 As for all the X#$%@ about Williamsburg, I and my wife enjoyed the = prospects of going. It's a great place. Builders are more than just individuals = who just want relevant information (maybe some only want that). We are an camaraderie of unusual people with a passion for the air, the wonder of = the scenery and sky we see, and an enjoyment of taking a pile of silicon and turning it into a sleek flying machine. It's great on occasion to get together in such a wonderful place and X$%$$#@ among ourselves. This is = a lot of work for Velocity and builders to put together (we thank you).and while we're at it, let the factory make more sales. Good grief, it is future sales that pay the salaries so the guys can continue to be there = for tech support. Yes, our front end price should have paid for that, but = the truth is that future revenue always pays for salaries, not a sale 5 = years ago. Or would some of us rather pay an annual tech support fee, say = $2,500 annually. I doubt that! =20 =20 Yea, more fluff pages than usual for this one, but VV is a most valuable piece, with great articles. You can't please every one. =20 =20 Velocity, don't change a thing. =20 =20 For those who aren't happy with it, don't subscribe. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of David Doyle Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:54 AM To: 'REFLECTOR' Subject: REFLECTOR:VV =20 I am taken aback that so much is made about what people see wrong with = VV (including the price). The publication overall is very helpful and I = enjoy the "fluff". As to the price, give me a break!! I bet those = complaining about price think nothing of taking their significant other to the = movies (twice in a year) or buying their cafe lattes (only 18 in a year). =20 =20 If you are going to complain - make it constructive - how to make it = better. And finally - let's be civilized and respectful of others - especially = to those who put in a lot of work to put out VV =20 David Doyle ------=_NextPart_000_0287_01C34143.49839400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Amen David! One night out at = a restaurant with your family and you’ve paid for a year of VV. My eyebrows have also been raised over the = perspectives so sensitively shared from time to time...no offense to = anyone!

Personally, I enjoy getting every = issue and read it cover to cover. One fine builder just made the point = that the newsletter also serves to keep sales going. Owning my own biz I = can tell you that part of the game is keeping revenue coming in the front = door. I’m sure copies of the VV are made available to prospective buyers. = Before I made my choice I reviewed a number of old issues supplied by a friend = who got me sucked in. VV played a role in my decision.

As for all the X#$%@ about = Williamsburg, I and my wife enjoyed the prospects of going. It’s a great place. Builders are more than just individuals who just want = relevant information (maybe some only want that). We are an camaraderie of = unusual people with a passion for the air, the wonder of the scenery and sky we = see, and an enjoyment of taking a pile of silicon and turning it into a sleek = flying machine. It’s great on occasion to get together in such a = wonderful place and X$%$$#@ among ourselves. This is a lot of work for = Velocity and builders to put together (we thank you)…and while we’re at = it, let the factory make more sales. Good grief, it is future sales that = pay the salaries so the guys can continue to be there for tech support. = Yes, our front end price should = have paid for that, but the truth is that future revenue always pays for salaries, = not a sale 5 years ago. Or would some of us rather pay an annual tech = support fee, say $2,500 annually. I doubt that!

Yea, more fluff pages than usual = for this one, but VV is a most valuable piece, with great articles. You = can’t please every one.

Velocity, don’t change a thing.

For those who aren’t happy = with it, don’t subscribe.

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of David Doyle
Sent: Thursday, July 03, = 2003 7:54 AM
To: 'REFLECTOR'
Subject: = REFLECTOR:VV

I am taken aback that so = much is made about what people see wrong with VV (including the price). = The publication overall is very helpful and I enjoy the = "fluff". As to the price, give me = a break!! I bet those complaining about price think nothing of taking their = significant other to the movies (twice in a year) or buying their cafe lattes (only = 18 in a year).

If you are going to = complain - make it constructive - how to make it better. And finally - let's be = civilized and respectful of others - especially to those who put in a lot of = work to put out VV

David Doyle

------=_NextPart_000_0287_01C34143.49839400-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 18:02:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 11:02:15 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:VV References: <028601c3417d$f5e26c00$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> Message-ID: <3F046197.6040701@tnstaafl.net> Phil Hooper wrote: > For those who aren't happy with it, don't subscribe. I can't believe you said that? How about this Phil, If you don't like to fly Cessna Spam cans, Don't Fly! Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 18:31:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:31:46 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:VV References: <028601c3417d$f5e26c00$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> <3F046197.6040701@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <018d01c34188$fae364b0$0100a8c0@micron> Scott - If I may, I believe his point was, do what you want to do, but please move on. The discussion has been had, nobody's opinion has changed, the horse is dead - continued beating will not help. Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 1:02 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:VV > Phil Hooper wrote: > > For those who aren't happy with it, don't subscribe. > > I can't believe you said that? > > How about this Phil, If you don't like to fly Cessna Spam cans, Don't Fly! > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 18:52:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:52:46 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: Message-ID: <003d01c3418b$ea896bc0$7601a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Ok, here's my .016euros. The last issue went overboard on Williamsburg - I too counted 6 pages + and I stopped reading after the first couple of lines because getting there is just not feasible for me. I've already read and filed away this last issue so going from memory here - always a dangerous thing to do at my age. In that issue was a note from Duane asking us to contact him regarding various options. From the way the options and his comments were posed it was obvious that he was pushing us to support the current VV approach and not really asking an open question and I kind of object to being pushed in a particular direction. Velocity is not a democracy so if Duane has a preference he can do whatever he wants however if he's genuinely asking his customers for input a more neutral tone to the options and comments he offered would have been more appropriate. I will be very surprised if many or even any V builders do not have internet connectivity - if they don't they can always go to the local library for free - porn filters ought to let VV through - but you never know. Having said that I subscribe to Aviation Safety and Aviation Consumer and IFR and IFR Refresher all of which have a similar format to VV and arrive in the mail and I think they're all about the same price as VV. All of these mags end up in the bathroom and are read over several sittings. I hope I never get to the point of having a phone or terminal in the bathroom. VV is a little different from the other mags, to me it's more important and gets filed away in a binder, that said I'd prefer to be able to file it away electronically along with Reflector postings that I think may be useful in the future - it's much easier to find stuff electronically - especially stuff I forgot about completely until I did the search. Again going from memory I think Duane commented about extra costs of publishing online, frankly there are none. His staff are already creating the articles anyway and it takes just a couple of minutes to upload them and add a link - probably about as long as it takes someone to e-mail the articles to Rick. It seems to me that ongoing customer education is not only good sense but an excellent sales tool that Velocity could point it's potential customers to. Like many V builders, I suspect, this is the first and probably only airplane I'm going to build in my lifetime and the knowledge that there is continuing education and support available was an important factor when I chose Velocity. While VV continues to be the only way to get the factory written articles I'll continue to subscribe however I'd prefer to see it all available online, preferably free but if not I'll pay. Now where's my sanding block....... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Barber" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:38 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > Yeah, but I agree with Scott.....even though I may use different verbiage. > I like the VV and read most of it cover to cover. However, all that stuff > on Williamsburg annoyed me. If I wanted to know about Williamsburg I would > find it on the internet or even, dare a say, a travel magazine. > > I have noticed appeals to us about submitting articles to fill VV. I > respect this request, but if I just want to read fluff, I will read Jana's > "People Magazine". That is not the kind of reading I do......I like > technical/how to articles and such. > > I want new developments (new rudder pedals), updates, pictures (like the > twin building progress....or the two place version that was talked about), > HOW TO's (like installing auto-pilot's or installing a headliner) and > information on events. But focused on my dream....uh, Velocity. > > I enjoy VV, but I think the internet is a MUCH better forum. Even though I > respect that not everyone has access, I feel this is an EXTREMELY weak > argument for not more quickly moving to the web for business support. > Especially since not everyone subscribes to VV.....they all can, but don't. > Same thing with the internet, they can subscribe and get all of its > benefits, but choose not to. IMHO, we are way past the point when the web > is bleeding edge technology....or even leading edge (heck, I have had a web > presence since the mid 90's, 9 years ago.....and I am not in technology as a > business. Today it is just another, and IMHO, much more powerful tool) > > Folks move, sell, die etc, I understand. But, based on that, I do not see > how VV serves a need better. (some folks don't have mail boxes....ok, very > small percentage or the RV types. RV as in Recreational Vehicle, not Van's > stuff but that is not who is being catered to). I think it was mentioned > that about 450 kits have been sold. That being the case, it would take about > $167.00 in postage and well less than a ream of paper to mail every kit > purchaser a letter to find out if the web would be a more useful forum or if > they have access.....but wait, we could just publish it in the VV. Oh, not > everyone subscribes to that. Never mind. > > I know Mr. Swing made his appeal in the last issue and I am encouraged by > the interest. It just seems at this point in time this is a no brainer. I > do not think VV is a profit center for anyone (even though I hope money is > made.....profit is good). I pay only $10.00 a month for my web hosting. The > web seems to have EVERY advantage with the ONLY drawback other than the > initial set-up being not everyone chooses to access the net......but, > everyone can (i.e. can we say Library). I admit I like the net a lot. I go > to the net before and usually instead of the yellow pages or Best Buy. So I > admit a bias. But it is a bias based on experience. Also, I concede that > most of y'all would agree with most of this since you are obviously already > linked to the rest of the world via email. > > It seems the hold up is a resistance to what is now very established > technology. Kinda ironic from a aviation firm. > > Finally, like I said, I like VV, and look forward to it and want it to > continue, but I think it should be the back-up, not the focus. I even enjoy > moderate fluff to add an overall flavor. I think the cost is a non > issue....I have pissed away a lot more on a lot less....and I am sure I will > again....probably tonight > > As to credit cards, it would make it easier but the extra charges bite. You > don't need terminals anymore, programs like QuickBooks will do it online > (but is still cost monthly fees and %). As to the not being allowed to give > cash discounts.....I know it is only semantics, but I think, cash discounts > ARE allowed, charging more for credit is not. > > Wow, this may be my longest post to this site....or maybe not....uh, sorry. > > FWIW. > > HAPPY FOURTH to all (in a country that lets us bitch about stuff like > this). > > Now to call the factory....I gots me a question. > > All the best, > > Chris > > Christopher Barber > Attorney and Counselor at Law > 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E > Suite 103 > Houston, Texas 77089-4755 > 281-464-LAWS (5297) > 281-754-4168 (Fax) > > CBarber@TexasAttorney.net > www.TexasAttorney.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Milton Mersky > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:10 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > > > Scott: > > Why do you hold back. Please say what you really mean. > > Milt > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > > Duane asked so here goes. > > > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs > > and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to > > avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and > > modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service > > and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > > > Here's how I broke them down. > > > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit > > 1/2 good stuff > > > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > > stuff > > > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > > good stuff > > > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the > > current implementation sucks. > > > > Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 19:13:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dale W. Thomas) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 14:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question 'VV is it worth it?' In-Reply-To: <026f01c34175$da770c80$9865fea9@tungsten.com> References: <026f01c34175$da770c80$9865fea9@tungsten.com> Message-ID: <4926.216.28.67.85.1057256016.squirrel@email.web2e.com> > Pay pall does charge the person getting the payment . > I do not know how much but I have been charged in the past for Usage. > But may be a good option For Rick. I've sold things on EBay using PayPal and it sometimes takes as long as 6 weeks for me to receive payment -- via an electronic transfer of funds to my account. Not acceptable performance for my business.... Dale From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 20:53:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: <3F045073.7030404@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <20030703195339.8719.qmail@web41305.mail.yahoo.com> Statistics show that 96-98% of all pilots have PCs and access to the Internet so that pretty much ends the lack of access problem. For the time required to produce it on line argument one VERY Busy secretary at Sun'nFun produces a full color news letter (3-4 pages with pictures) every week in her spare time using Adobe. ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 23:19:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Noel Gattenby) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:19:37 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Views Message-ID: <200307031719.AA2186543364@mail.gbronline.com> I don't throw my 2 cents in very often but here goes... Yes, the last V views had a lot of fluff... If you don't like the fluff then write something that isn't fluff and send it to Rick. In every newsletter there is a request for us to send stuff. I'v done the newsletter thing before, most of the time your begging for new things to print. It doesn't have to be a 6 page epic, just something that some other builder would or might find interesting or helpful. Bottom line... Instead of throwing stones... try helping. Noel 3SUV103 From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 02:22:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 19:22:17 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --============_-1154840745==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin, Your bird is beautiful, and the performance numbers encouraging. I'm on my 6th year and hoping to lift off by fall. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >After 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike >Pollock, Velocity owner and test pilot, made the first flights of >our Velocity, N111VX. My wife and I flew chase with Milt Mersky and >Dave Bertram in Milt's & Mike's Velocity. > > > >Elite Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear > >Empty Weight 1505 > >Re-Man IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression pistons > >M-T Prop > >Single oil cooler (in front) > >Downdraft cooling > >Presently in primer, no interior (just seats) > > > >Saturday 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it's >hot in Scottsdale, AZ now). CHTs were high (over 400) on taxi. >She flew beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the >oil temp was slowly rising. At 245 degrees, Mike decided to land. >The lowest oil temp on descent was 230. Mike said that the wire >duct was quite hot. CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil >reached around 256 and CHTs reach around 467 by the time Mike taxied >back and shutdown. We were expecting high temps until the engine >was broken in but the oil temp was concerning. Duane Swing >suggested that a small NACA scoop in the fuselage at the forward end >of the pilot wire duct that holds both oil lines would help by >keeping the lines cooler in flight. We put in the NACA scoop (or >hole for the time being) and the next morning we flew again. CHTs >were below 425 (mostly around 370-380) and oil temp was below 245 >the entire time. Between the engine slowing breaking in and the >small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for >almost 2 hours in the local practice area around 6,000'. Mike did >slow flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests - everything went >fine - she flew beautifully. > > > >Pictures can be seen at: > >http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3D4291366131&code=3D5662024&mode= =3Dinvite > > > >I should have my transition training completed sometime this week >and will hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can't >wait and still can't find the words=8A > > > >Kevin --============_-1154840745==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:First Flight

Kevin,

Your bird is beautiful, and the performance numbers encouraging. I'm on my 6th year and hoping to lift off by fall.

Dennis Martin

N767DG FG

After 3 years and 4 months of building, this past weekend Mike Pollock, Velocity owner and test pilot, made the first flights of our Velocity, N111VX. My wife and I flew chase with Milt Mersky and Dave Bertram in Milt's & Mike's Velocity.

Elite Long-Wing, Fixed-Gear

Empty Weight 1505

Re-Man IO-360-C1E6 from Lycon (in CA) with high compression pistons

M-T Prop

Single oil cooler (in front)

Downdraft cooling

Presently in primer, no interior (just seats)

Saturday 6/28: The outside temp was about 90 (it was morning) (it's hot in Scottsdale, AZ now). CHTs were high (over 400) on taxi. She flew beautifully for about 15 minutes over the airport but the oil temp was slowly rising. At 245 degrees, Mike decided to land. The lowest oil temp on descent was 230. Mike said that the wire duct was quite hot. CHTs were high but under 425 in flight. Oil reached around 256 and CHTs reach around 467 by the time Mike taxied back and shutdown. We were expecting high temps until the engine was broken in but the oil temp was concerning. Duane Swing suggested that a small NACA scoop in the fuselage at the forward end of the pilot wire duct that holds both oil lines would help by keeping the lines cooler in flight. We put in the NACA scoop (or hole for the time being) and the next morning we flew again. CHTs were below 425 (mostly around 370-380) and oil temp was below 245 the entire time. Between the engine slowing breaking in and the small NACA for the oil lines all temps were in check. We flew for almost 2 hours in the local practice area around 6,000'. Mike did slow flight, stalls, steep turns and flutter tests - everything went fine - she flew beautifully.

Pictures can be seen at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3D4291366131&code=3D5662024&mode=3Dinvite

I should have my transition training completed sometime this week and will hopefully personally fly her before the weekend. Can't wait and still can't find the words=8A

Kevin

--============_-1154840745==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 02:43:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 19:43:43 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 02:46:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 19:46:00 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG main bearing problem In-Reply-To: <1056631423.3efaea7f34bb1@webmail.123mail.net> References: <1056631423.3efaea7f34bb1@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: I figured out a solution - make it impossible for the rubber seal to bulge out. I bought a much larger size (diameter) washer than the one provided in the Matko brake kit. It's almost as big as the inside diameter of the wheel. (I'll measure it if anyone's interested). The only problem: I had to use a carbide grinder tool to enlarge the hole in the center of the washer to fit over the axle. All the best, Dennis Martin N767DG FG >Dennis, > >I noticed this on one of my wheels recently, but since I'm not >flying, I don't have recommendations yet on what to do about it. > >Brett > >Quoting Dennis Martin : > >> As FG builders know, we have to tighten the castle nut >> on each main >> gear axle tight enough to keep the retaining washer >> (and both bearing >> housings) from rotating. Put another way, the race >> on the wheel >> must rotate around the Timken roller bearings while >> the housing and >> seal remain stationary. >> >> My problem: When I tighten the nut on the right main >> gear (enough to >> stop the washer and bearings from rotating), the >> rubber seal balloons >> out slightly around the outside diameter of the washer >> in one spot. >> I've removed it and replaced it at least six times. >> Always the same >> result. Has anyone else experienced this problem? >> Suggested >> solutions? >> >> Dennis Martin >> FG Long Wing >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 03:25:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 20:25:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port References: <1056631423.3efaea7f34bb1@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: <3F04E58A.1030205@tnstaafl.net> In this months Sport Aviation there is an article on how to calibrate your airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most often problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port not providing a true static pressure. I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower pressure than it should thus causing the airspeed indicator to register a higher indicated speed than it should. I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical pattern with a small aluminum block in front of the holes. This is located about 10 inches below the pilot side elevator on the fuselage. Any body else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 04:45:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 22:45:07 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they are in as good condition as the ones that you received... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 04:55:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:55:16 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port In-Reply-To: <3F04E58A.1030205@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Scott, I did some testing on our 173RG airspeed system back in 2000 to determine the difference in CAS, IAS, and TAS for N173DT. We also have the standard 3 hole static system under the left side of the canard, but we have our heated pitot tube mounted under the right canard about 8 inches down, but pointed in the direction of the fuselage side (not the direction of the centerline of the plane). The only problem with the data is at the lower end stall with the gear up. The error is greater at that end, but all in all, the system is within 3-5 knots accuracy. The actual numbers can be found on my server at http://mycozy.com/Performance.htm under the Data2 tab. Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:25 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port In this months Sport Aviation there is an article on how to calibrate your airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most often problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port not providing a true static pressure. I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower pressure than it should thus causing the airspeed indicator to register a higher indicated speed than it should. I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical pattern with a small aluminum block in front of the holes. This is located about 10 inches below the pilot side elevator on the fuselage. Any body else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes? Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 05:20:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (johnandmarywright) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:20:37 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: Views References: <200307031719.AA2186543364@mail.gbronline.com> Message-ID: <003301c341e3$9f139c30$e0fea8c0@VALUEDCB7D4C82> Noel, Appreciate your attitude and your solution ! Mary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Gattenby" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 3:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Views > > I don't throw my 2 cents in very often but here goes... > Yes, the last V views had a lot of fluff... > If you don't like the fluff then write something that isn't fluff > and send it to Rick. > In every newsletter there is a request for us to send stuff. > I'v done the newsletter thing before, most of the time your > begging for new things to print. > It doesn't have to be a 6 page epic, just something that some other > builder would or might find interesting or helpful. > > Bottom line... > Instead of throwing stones... try helping. > > Noel > 3SUV103 > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 09:03:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 04:03:28 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port References: <1056631423.3efaea7f34bb1@webmail.123mail.net> <3F04E58A.1030205@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <001401c34202$c15be9e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Applying a layer of duct tape over the bump should make it read higher. Sanding it off about 0.015 inch at a time should lower your indicated airspeed. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:25 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port > In this months Sport Aviation there is an article on how to calibrate > your airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most often > problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port not > providing a true static pressure. > > I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower pressure > than it should thus causing the airspeed indicator to register a higher > indicated speed than it should. > > I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical pattern with a small > aluminum block in front of the holes. This is located about 10 inches > below the pilot side elevator on the fuselage. > > Any body else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes? > > Scott > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 13:51:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:51:44 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Got the last 6. Man, he said he had 59 of them when I called. Guess they didn't last long. I hope they work well for you. Alex, are you going to be at OSH this year? Maybe see you at the Velocity dinner... Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they are in as good condition as the ones that you received... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 15:17:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 09:17:06 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andy, Actually 2 years ago Dave Bertram and I flew up to Osh on his Baron, at that time we said that in 2 years we would fly formation back there in our Velocities- Dave has the quick build stuff, and will be running a 350 Chevy, and, I was a lot further along at the time, and running the SVX...... now, 2 years later, we are both a lot closer, but neither of us is that close- maybe if I get cranking, I will make OSH next year!!! I decided to install low compression pistons now instead of after I'm flying, so that will set me back about a month right there, I'll let you know how the eyeballs work out, I am hoping that I will be able to repair the broken one........ I was thinking that I might make Reno this year - it is in September, and there is going to be a white lightning up there running a 350 hp Subaru SVX motor, so I thought that I would go up and talk to them about it....... Alex PS, taking advice from the group, I think I will try to write a short ( no fluff) article for the VV about how circumnavigated my extra large strake extensions with a flex cable and some bell cranks- the doors are finally installed, so now I know that the system works properly, and I have totally flush handles too! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Got the last 6. Man, he said he had 59 of them when I called. Guess they didn't last long. I hope they work well for you. Alex, are you going to be at OSH this year? Maybe see you at the Velocity dinner... Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they are in as good condition as the ones that you received... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 15:37:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:37:28 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alex, Sorry that I won't see you at OSH this year. I enjoyed talking with you at that Velocity dinner two years ago. A lot of building has happened since then. The article on the strakes and doors would be great. I would also like to hear more about your engine installation. I'm sure the whole group would appreciate it. Just make sure you still have time to build. Let us know about the 350 hp Subaru. Sounds interesting. Did you see that new 300 hp monster from Bombardier? Rotax 963. It has everything was have all been asking for in an aircraft engine. The only problem will be the price. I noticed they didn't print one. That can't be good. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:17 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Actually 2 years ago Dave Bertram and I flew up to Osh on his Baron, at that time we said that in 2 years we would fly formation back there in our Velocities- Dave has the quick build stuff, and will be running a 350 Chevy, and, I was a lot further along at the time, and running the SVX...... now, 2 years later, we are both a lot closer, but neither of us is that close- maybe if I get cranking, I will make OSH next year!!! I decided to install low compression pistons now instead of after I'm flying, so that will set me back about a month right there, I'll let you know how the eyeballs work out, I am hoping that I will be able to repair the broken one........ I was thinking that I might make Reno this year - it is in September, and there is going to be a white lightning up there running a 350 hp Subaru SVX motor, so I thought that I would go up and talk to them about it....... Alex PS, taking advice from the group, I think I will try to write a short ( no fluff) article for the VV about how circumnavigated my extra large strake extensions with a flex cable and some bell cranks- the doors are finally installed, so now I know that the system works properly, and I have totally flush handles too! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Got the last 6. Man, he said he had 59 of them when I called. Guess they didn't last long. I hope they work well for you. Alex, are you going to be at OSH this year? Maybe see you at the Velocity dinner... Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they are in as good condition as the ones that you received... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 21:12:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 14:12:59 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port References: <1056631423.3efaea7f34bb1@webmail.123mail.net> <3F04E58A.1030205@tnstaafl.net> <001401c34202$c15be9e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3F05DFCB.7090704@tnstaafl.net> Ok, let me get this straight... Raising the bump will raise the static pressure thus lowering your indicated airspeed? Lowering the bump will lower the static pressure thus raising your indicated airspeed? Scott Wayne Owens wrote: > Applying a layer of duct tape over the bump should make it read higher. > Sanding it off about 0.015 inch at a time should lower your indicated > airspeed. > Wayne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Derrick" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:25 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port > > > >>In this months Sport Aviation there is an article on how to calibrate >>your airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most often >>problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port not >>providing a true static pressure. >> >>I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower pressure >>than it should thus causing the airspeed indicator to register a higher >>indicated speed than it should. >> >>I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical pattern with a small >>aluminum block in front of the holes. This is located about 10 inches >>below the pilot side elevator on the fuselage. >> >>Any body else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes? >> >>Scott >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 21:50:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 16:50:24 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes Message-ID: Phenolic thermal isolation boards. Need advice from someone smarter than me (which qualifies just about everyone). In switching to the Clevelands, I understand that 1/8" phenolic board is cut out to fit on the gear to isolate the gear leg from the heat of the brakes. My question is, "does the phenolic board (trimmed and drilled to fit, naturally) go between the gear leg and axle, or does it go over the axle and is sandwiched between the outside of the axle root and the anchor plate for the calipers?" Or both places??? V sent enough board material that I could make two isolation spacers to fit in both positions discussed above, for each leg. That might be excellent for thermal isolation but I was concerned about pushing the wheel center line out even further from the gear leg attachment point. Any ideas on "the right way to do it", or at least the way you did it and it worked, would be appreciated. Thanks Chuck N27GV From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 21:43:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 13:43:10 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port References: <1056631423.3efaea7f34bb1@webmail.123mail.net> <3F04E58A.1030205@tnstaafl.net> <001401c34202$c15be9e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> <3F05DFCB.7090704@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002b01c3426c$e1ff1e00$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Raising a bump BEHIND the static port(s) will raise the static pressure and lower your indicated airspeed. However, raising a bump AHEAD of the port(s) will have the opposite effect. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 1:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Static Port > Ok, let me get this straight... > > Raising the bump will raise the static pressure thus lowering your > indicated airspeed? > > Lowering the bump will lower the static pressure thus raising your > indicated airspeed? > > Scott > > > Wayne Owens wrote: > > Applying a layer of duct tape over the bump should make it read higher. > > Sanding it off about 0.015 inch at a time should lower your indicated > > airspeed. > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Scott Derrick" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:25 PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port > > > > > > > >>In this months Sport Aviation there is an article on how to calibrate > >>your airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most often > >>problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port not > >>providing a true static pressure. > >> > >>I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower pressure > >>than it should thus causing the airspeed indicator to register a higher > >>indicated speed than it should. > >> > >>I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical pattern with a small > >>aluminum block in front of the holes. This is located about 10 inches > >>below the pilot side elevator on the fuselage. > >> > >>Any body else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes? > >> > >>Scott > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 21:50:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 13:50:34 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes References: Message-ID: <003101c3426d$ea395440$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> My understanding is that we are just trying to isolate the heat of the brakes from the gear leg. Therefore, the phenolic should be bedded in some microglass onto the gear leg itself. I have the Matco multi-plate internal brakes, which were originally designed to dissipate heat primarily through the axle to a metal gear leg. Therefore, I'm going to use a 3/16" thick aluminum plate "heat sink" and combination "wheel fairing mount bracket" between the axle and the phenolic board on the gear leg. I'm not flying yet, so it remains to be seen how well this will work. Keith Hallsten, XLFG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 1:50 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes > Phenolic thermal isolation boards. Need advice from someone smarter than me > (which qualifies just about everyone). In switching to the Clevelands, I > understand that 1/8" phenolic board is cut out to fit on the gear to isolate > the gear leg from the heat of the brakes. > > My question is, "does the phenolic board (trimmed and drilled to fit, > naturally) go between the gear leg and axle, or does it go over the axle and > is sandwiched between the outside of the axle root and the anchor plate for > the calipers?" Or both places??? > > V sent enough board material that I could make two isolation spacers to fit > in both positions discussed above, for each leg. That might be excellent > for thermal isolation but I was concerned about pushing the wheel center > line out even further from the gear leg attachment point. > > Any ideas on "the right way to do it", or at least the way you did it and it > worked, would be appreciated. > > Thanks > Chuck > N27GV > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 4 21:50:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 16:50:48 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port Message-ID: <004b01c3426d$f2cd11a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C3424C.6B4F1B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wasn't too clear was it. My TAS was reading higher than my average GPS ground speed over a = course. I experimented by adding a layer or two of duct tape to my bump to = confirm what happens. The static pressure was lowered so the delta P = over the airspeed indicator (scale) was greater. The air speed read = higher still. It confirmed I needed to sand off some more of my = fiberglass bump. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 4:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Static Port > Ok, let me get this straight... >=20 > Raising the bump will raise the static pressure thus lowering your=20 > indicated airspeed? >=20 > Lowering the bump will lower the static pressure thus raising your=20 > indicated airspeed? >=20 > Scott >=20 >=20 > Wayne Owens wrote: > > Applying a layer of duct tape over the bump should make it read = higher. > > Sanding it off about 0.015 inch at a time should lower your = indicated > > airspeed. > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Scott Derrick" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:25 PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >>In this months Sport Aviation there is an article on how to = calibrate > >>your airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most often > >>problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port not > >>providing a true static pressure. > >> > >>I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower = pressure > >>than it should thus causing the airspeed indicator to register a = higher > >>indicated speed than it should. > >> > >>I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical pattern with a small > >>aluminum block in front of the holes. This is located about 10 = inches > >>below the pilot side elevator on the fuselage. > >> > >>Any body else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes? > >> > >>Scott ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C3424C.6B4F1B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wasn't too clear was it.

My TAS was reading higher than my average GPS ground speed over a=20 course.

I experimented by adding a layer or two of duct tape to = my bump=20 to confirm what happens. The static pressure was lowered so the = delta P=20 over the airspeed indicator (scale) was greater. The air speed read higher still. It = confirmed I=20 needed to sand off some more of my fiberglass bump.

----- Original Message -----=20

From: "Scott Derrick" <scott@tnstaafl.net>

To: <reflector@tvbf.org>

Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 4:12 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Static Port

> Ok, let me get this straight...
>
> = Raising the=20 bump will raise the static pressure thus lowering your
> = indicated=20 airspeed?
>
> Lowering the bump will lower the static = pressure thus=20 raising your
> indicated airspeed?
>
> Scott
> =
>
> Wayne Owens wrote:
> > Applying a layer of = duct tape=20 over the bump should make it read higher.
> > Sanding it off = about=20 0.015 inch at a time should lower your indicated
> > = airspeed.
>=20 > Wayne
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: = "Scott=20 Derrick" <scott@tnstaafl.net>
> = > To:=20 <reflector@tvbf.org>
> = >=20 Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:25 PM
> > Subject: = REFLECTOR:Static=20 Port
> >
> >
> >
> >>In this = months=20 Sport Aviation there is an article on how to calibrate
> = >>your=20 airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most = often
>=20 >>problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port=20 not
> >>providing a true static pressure.
> = >>
>=20 >>I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower=20 pressure
> >>than it should thus causing the airspeed = indicator to=20 register a higher
> >>indicated speed than it = should.
>=20 >>
> >>I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical=20 pattern with a small
> >>aluminum block in front of = the=20 holes. This is located about 10 inches
> >>below = the=20 pilot side elevator on the fuselage.
> >>
> = >>Any body=20 else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes?
>=20 >>
> >>Scott

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C3424C.6B4F1B40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 01:04:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:04:13 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush Door Handles? References: Message-ID: <005401c34288$fe462060$5126fea9@greg> Hey Alex, Have you any pictures of your flush door handle treatment you could post? (...please) Greg in Sydney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Balic" To: Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents > Andy, > Actually 2 years ago Dave Bertram and I flew up to Osh on his Baron, at that > time we said that in 2 years we would fly formation back there in our > Velocities- Dave has the quick build stuff, and will be running a 350 Chevy, > and, I was a lot further along at the time, and running the SVX...... now, 2 > years later, we are both a lot closer, but neither of us is that close- > maybe if I get cranking, I will make OSH next year!!! I decided to install > low compression pistons now instead of after I'm flying, so that will set me > back about a month right there, > I'll let you know how the eyeballs work out, I am hoping that I will be able > to repair the broken one........ > I was thinking that I might make Reno this year - it is in September, and > there is going to be a white lightning up there running a 350 hp Subaru SVX > motor, so I thought that I would go up and talk to them about it....... > > Alex > > PS, taking advice from the group, I think I will try to write a short ( no > fluff) article for the VV about how circumnavigated my extra large strake > extensions with a flex cable and some bell cranks- the doors are finally > installed, so now I know that the system works properly, and I have totally > flush handles too! > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Andy Millin > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:52 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents > > > Got the last 6. Man, he said he had 59 of them when I called. Guess they > didn't last long. > > I hope they work well for you. > > Alex, are you going to be at OSH this year? Maybe see you at the Velocity > dinner... > > Best, > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Alexander Balic > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:45 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents > > > Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one > was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they > are in as good condition as the ones that you received... > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Dennis Martin > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents > > > Andy, > > Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are > "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from > factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold > air as needed to front and back. > > Dennis Martin > N767DG FG > > >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they > >were like so here is the report. > > > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are > >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > > > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > > > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem > >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > > > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to > >me, but not something I would have chosen. > > > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > > > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have > >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they > >will deliver a good volume of air. > > > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an > >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > > > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact > >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If > >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or > >so in stock. > > > >Hope this helps. > > > >Best, > > > >Andy > > > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy > >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a > while. > > > >_______________________________________________ > >To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 01:55:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (AnnSam) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 20:55:06 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Forced Landing Message-ID: To all Velocity owners and builders, In case you didn�t already know this I want to attest to the fact that the Velocity is a great plane and the people at the Velocity factory are even greater. On July 1st I flew my Velocity to Sebastian to pick up some parts. On the way home the engine seized at about 1,500 feet and I was forced to land in a rough and I do mean rough field. I thought it was going to be just a routine off field landing with a probable broken nose gear. When I was about 20ft off the ground I saw the 2ft. wide by about 2ft.deep drainage ditches running across the whole field at about 75ft. apart. They could not be seen from the air, as they were overgrown with vegetation. At that point I had no choice, I had to land straight ahead. Had it been a spam can we would have sustained a lot more serious injury. Although the nose of the aircraft looks pretty bad it can be repaired. I didn�t know what I was going to do to get the broken aircraft out of the cow pasture in the middle of nowhere. While, I was at the Emergency room waiting on my friend I called the Velocity factory and told Dwayne of my problem. He got a crew together picked up the broken aircraft placed it on a trailer and took it back to the factory. I will be forever grateful to the Velocity crew and especially to Dwayne Swing. The Velocity was a good strong design when Danny Maher designed it and it�s even better now with the continuous factory improvements and mods. Velocity Standard Uni door Flying over 800hrs. fixed gear 180HP Lyc. Sam DaSilva From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 02:07:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org ( Chris Martin) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 18:07:19 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto Pilots Message-ID: <410-220037651719744@earthlink.net>

I have been flying with the Navaid wing leveler for 340 hours. Works great as a wing leveler and for tracking the GPS. I am, however, interested in doing more IFR flying and feel it would be a good idea to switch over to a 2 axis auto pilot with GPS steering, pitch control, altitude hold and vertical speed select. I have been looking at the TruTrak equipment.

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html

Anyone have any experience with this equipment. At the minimum I could add a altitude hold system for $1495. That would be a nice option and takes no panel space other than a 3/" hole for the on/off button and I could leave the Navaid in place. On the other had, I could sell the Navaid for probably $1000 and go to a full auto pilot like the TruTrak 200vs with GPS steering for $4950. Net cost after sale of Navaid about $4000.

What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective".

And by the way. I had a very nice flight today. The Trans Pac Race, Los Angeles to Hawaii, left LA harbor at 1 PM today and I went out and photographed the 60 boat fleet as they approached Santa Catalina Island on their way out to sea. An absolutely beautiful scene on a beautiful day...... I love flying my Velocity XL RG!

Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America.

Chris Martin

Velocity XL RG

---

--- christophercmartin@earthlink.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 02:17:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 20:17:37 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: REFLECTOR:My thoughts on V V References: <003101c34177$3b901d80$b9b841d8@daniel> Message-ID: <3F062731.000022.03132@Medsker1> --------------Boundary-00=_D92J5BZ2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_D92J0L32QL8000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_D92J0L32QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D Second time I've posted on here but feel strongly enough on this issue t= o try it again. =0D =0D I consider the newsletter a great asset and source of very helpful information.. It's a hard copy of reliable information that is factual fo= r me to easily reference.. $45 ?? What does a subscription to EAA and/or AO= PA cost and what do they have specifically related to Velocity's?? No need t= o respond individually; just for a comparison example only..=0D =0D Williamsburg and all the others; fluffy?? Not to me.. Would love to be ab= le to attend, and will some day.. Someone has gone to all the time and troub= le to put together an outing or gathering for those with a common bond of Velocities and wants to get the information out to those interested in attending. Gheez, everything is all prearranged and all ya gotta do is sh= ow up and if you don't have a good time; it's your fault.. Perfect place for exchange of this type of information.. I also think the factory folks ar= e to be commended highly for their participation and support of these functions..=0D =0D Want to see more in the VV?? Simple, send it in; I have. Vol 11, page 13, not much of value other than an attempt at some humor.. =0D =0D Duane asked for idea's to problems of non subscriber's wanting and needin= g what has already been put out in the newsletter?? If you didn't buy the = kit nor subscribe to the newsletter then perhaps some type of consulting fee;= as in the computer industry for example.. Questions, ya pay for the answers.= =2E That idea is bound to whiz off a lot of folks also !! Then the charging a= nd accounting wouldn't be easy either.. Or put the information on the web si= te and put a fee for access with a password to the site. =0D =0D The reflector is great source of information but not the total answer eit= her =2E Which leads into my first innocent posting that dealt with what I tho= ught was a relatively simple question about weight and balance.. Never did get= an honest answer but did get flamed just magnificently by the way.. Yes I wa= s insulted, since I'd already been doing W & B on military helicopter's bef= ore BC (before calculators) and SS (spread sheets); which was before most of = you went to the dance with your dad!!! =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_D92J0L32QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Second time I've posted on here but feel strongly enough on th= is issue to try it again.

I consider the newsletter a great asset and source of very helpful i= nformation.. It's a hard copy of reliable information that is factual for= me to easily reference.. $45 ?? What does a subscription to EAA and= /or AOPA cost and what do they have specifically related to Velocity's?? = No need to respond individually; just for a comparison example = only..

Williamsburg and all the others; fluffy?? Not to me.. Would love to = be able to attend, and will some day.. Someone has gone to all = the time and trouble to put together an outing or gathering for thos= e with a common bond of Velocities and wants to get the information= out to those interested in attending. Gheez, everything is all prearrang= ed and all ya gotta do is show up and if you don't have a good time;= it's your fault.. Perfect place for exchange of this type of i= nformation.. I also think the factory folks are to be commended hig= hly for their participation and support of these functions..

Want to see more in the VV?? Simple, send it in; I have. Vol 11, pag= e 13, not much of value other than an attempt at some humor..

Duane asked for idea's to problems of non subscriber's wanting = and needing what has already been put out in the newsletter?? If yo= u didn't buy the kit nor subscribe to the newsletter then perhaps some ty= pe of consulting fee; as in the computer industry for example.. Questions= , ya pay for the answers.. That idea is bound to whiz off a lot of folks = also !! Then the charging and accounting wouldn't be easy either.. Or put= the information on the web site and put a fee for access = with a password to the site.

The reflector is great source of information but not the total answe= r either.. Which leads into my first innocent posting that dealt with wha= t I thought was a relatively simple question about weight and balance.. N= ever did get an honest answer but did get flamed just magnifice= ntly by the way.. Yes I was insulted, since I'd already been doing&n= bsp;W & B on military helicopter's before BC (before calculators) and= SS (spread sheets); which was before most of you went to the d= ance with your dad!!!

--------------Boundary-00=_D92J0L32QL8000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_D92J5BZ2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Image/jpeg; name="faint_grain1111.jpg" Content-ID: <2C6E30CA-894D-418E-86E7-BCA6FB052678> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAAMgAA/+4ADkFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAf/b AIQACAYGBgYGCAYGCAwIBwgMDgoICAoOEA0NDg0NEBEMDg0NDgwRDxITFBMSDxgYGhoYGCMiIiIj JycnJycnJycnJwEJCAgJCgkLCQkLDgsNCw4RDg4ODhETDQ0ODQ0TGBEPDw8PERgWFxQUFBcWGhoY GBoaISEgISEnJycnJycnJycn/8AAEQgAZQBzAwEiAAIRAQMRAf/EAGcAAQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAABAgcBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAICAQIFAwMEAgMAAAAAAAERACExQVFhcYECEpGhIrHB MvDR4UJSgqLC0hEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A7uT+RwjXPSK7dAO3tAPF m1DOSS8qCKQQ8jnkIC0PL8qrGQoOqO4+ktEhboM6byf45zdPQQGEsmhrzjJKD1a9pQX3A8NJLQFg HV3iA0JN8On8SnNVQS5xl6ADRmpGV5amwOTgCB5LihTzmHRtij7xgZzQPTMqyEn+rgR0O03/AGPr Aq8Yw9TD901x0gmtwgn1MBQGEyA9TGoYuzq7l1/2qTtCHaNXYsnWBVp0+8THj3Z1XvhRA1kbP7S4 N5aD1xI9at3jEuOI7VeHi4E2VgWa1MHqNs6axReuRnPSMOkQu0dVUC+vTe5ERaQz6xbGwbvVCKWH wOIAe4yToDGtnWzyv7xRJBtkPZCDubZMBZazxz0gJlF2uZ1gsHc5VcoPxyUiUNS4DAFYBJ5gXC+I PBAK8c4GEAuR1Nlxz2Z+sBqbohDm4slkNjfGu8dUiF2iDqdh9oFQTQy8aOIeniV9sxADN4BKkDo8 AT1qMojkOriudAknhiAObso1nJUHCoW/WAzf+x6ygo5tlnS4Epd1C9cZMrdimrOwkaHkLKP6EJFn ZLTeAyAMnUjGsag8Fy0lF3zA01MmlVWYDcLT5esYxSsnkINA1SNHJIhOhXlz37oDQ5OvRG4N2dgU JB8gSmwAvtKch5yV6KBfkWgrp8pCeqxpol1joB43R+8NCtGnUB4j/rmIV/lw1/JZzEBxdin0hZuk PQODgtcXsITrXU7NQLxIyUidnIMN6PriGB8je/ViLwyb5Y9YA/QN40cHVC3qfT3kIqy6sIzV65O2 RcAWPHyyGdmTJgrGgchQ4Esg6oL6mavkznhAgTHjxDPOzKDfke4EnBtVIx8TsyHoIaDLxb46QHaC O3tqt3xEbB2lCBrJP7yksFYqsc4E7h8SBXkKGd/3lpk5qHYRR0W36EgwDuUPpiA+WK365iGNxhRA YfEN3Fo8635xYoBGx7RQFcufibgW/wCoez1SkyybA/Wstkp+vCQWALQyTsIAkkWLNbAPjKRw0+qk xu2AdnUIf24vWgoBfIjtFpdr2dxVmt1wDhnJ1tbrAhOhmhxqzAWRzp+oheRI0CfpDt5sgARgEdFn hiAZ7jYI2/f3jfkBXU1B9KIBMcQzUBrrovrHXBqFhdVmKHA6wM/+H1ibt4+m0QIad2WqeYtoOtsX KkTdvPO5PdWQNb3gBZ6kwvxBtsrSLYGmwlAJa4DhmBk12+XXqhNEFrAazuZESCBWgKOMS0S1eerg SjxNV/PCDucF0Is+I0Z7u7atIsdoOpfHBgW8YA0rKkCwHkm/SMFadp9SpcIaC+g/mBnY0SB9cy/e hyX8QNFZLCxDF92SEBtcCui8V1Rkx2+OSaPTP1g+Q8iG8Bo684IdALtFMwNU83nTaJPIZ0ft+MQI NNa7XprFIY8b5dYiBdPjxxJS7dv1mIgNv+KX2jQLHyxz4xEAcDKXcvWK8hlREANN2G4Cd7F8nEQK Gxh6PeQfj27ePxe8RAV5Xnju4CXa9xnpEQF+3vERA//Z --------------Boundary-00=_D92J5BZ2QL8000000000-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 03:12:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 20:12:23 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port References: <004b01c3426d$f2cd11a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3F063407.9020705@tnstaafl.net> Got it, thanks Keith & Wayne. Scott Wayne Owens wrote: > Wasn't too clear was it. > > My TAS was reading higher than my average GPS ground speed over a course. > I experimented by adding a layer or two of duct tape to my bump to > confirm what happens. The static pressure was lowered so the delta P > over the airspeed indicator (scale) was greater. The air speed read > higher still. It confirmed I needed to sand off some more of my > fiberglass bump. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Derrick" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Static Port > > > Ok, let me get this straight... > > > > Raising the bump will raise the static pressure thus lowering your > > indicated airspeed? > > > > Lowering the bump will lower the static pressure thus raising your > > indicated airspeed? > > > > Scott > > > > > > Wayne Owens wrote: > > > Applying a layer of duct tape over the bump should make it read higher. > > > Sanding it off about 0.015 inch at a time should lower your indicated > > > airspeed. > > > Wayne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Scott Derrick" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:25 PM > > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port > > > > > > > > > > > >>In this months Sport Aviation there is an article on how to calibrate > > >>your airspeed indicator. The article mentions that the most often > > >>problem with incorrect airspeed indicators is the static port not > > >>providing a true static pressure. > > >> > > >>I'm sure mine is off at cruise speeds. I think it reads a lower > pressure > > >>than it should thus causing the airspeed indicator to register a higher > > >>indicated speed than it should. > > >> > > >>I have the standard 3 tiny holes in a vertical pattern with a small > > >>aluminum block in front of the holes. This is located about 10 inches > > >>below the pilot side elevator on the fuselage. > > >> > > >>Any body else determine theirs was not optimal? Any easy fixes? > > >> > > >>Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 03:15:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 20:15:43 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Forced Landing References: Message-ID: <3F0634CF.5020803@tnstaafl.net> Sam, Glad your all right and the plane is fixable. My experience with a Velocity mishap reinforces your assessment. Its a sturdy plane and if your have to off road in a GA plane, I'll pick my Velocity any day. Scott AnnSam wrote: > To all Velocity owners and builders, > In case you didn�t already know this I want to attest to the fact that the > Velocity is a great plane and the people at the Velocity factory are even > greater. > On July 1st I flew my Velocity to Sebastian to pick up some parts. On the > way home the engine seized at about 1,500 feet and I was forced to land in a > rough and I do mean rough field. I thought it was going to be just a routine > off field landing with a probable broken nose gear. When I was about 20ft > off the ground I saw the 2ft. wide by about 2ft.deep drainage ditches > running across the whole field at about 75ft. apart. They could not be seen > from the air, as they were overgrown with vegetation. At that point I had no > choice, I had to land straight ahead. Had it been a spam can we would have > sustained a lot more serious injury. Although the nose of the aircraft looks > pretty bad it can be repaired. > I didn�t know what I was going to do to get the broken aircraft out of the > cow pasture in the middle of nowhere. While, I was at the Emergency room > waiting on my friend I called the Velocity factory and told Dwayne of my > problem. He got a crew together picked up the broken aircraft placed it on a > trailer and took it back to the factory. > I will be forever grateful to the Velocity crew and especially to Dwayne > Swing. The Velocity was a good strong design when Danny Maher designed it > and it�s even better now with the continuous factory improvements and mods. > Velocity Standard Uni door Flying over 800hrs. fixed gear 180HP Lyc. > Sam DaSilva > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 07:02:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 23:02:22 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto Pilots References: <410-220037651719744@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001401c342bb$008464e0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C34280.53EA0A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, I am not flying yet, but I have been spending some time evaluating = equipment for my panel. I am impressed with the quality of the TruTrak = line of auutopilots, and when you consider price/performance ratios, I = think they are tough to beat. I have just about decided to order a = 200vs for my XL, so I'll be interested to see the comments from the rest = of the group. It's got to be a whole lot better than the Navaid! By the way, thanks for bringing your plane to the Golden West Fly-in a = couple of weeks ago. Seeing a real flying Velocity always helps get the = enthusiasm for building back up! Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Martin=20 To: reflector=20 Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:07 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto Pilots I have been flying with the Navaid wing leveler for 340 hours. Works = great as a wing leveler and for tracking the GPS. I am, however, = interested in doing more IFR flying and feel it would be a good idea to = switch over to a 2 axis auto pilot with GPS steering, pitch control, = altitude hold and vertical speed select. I have been looking at the = TruTrak equipment.=20 http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html Anyone have any experience with this equipment. At the minimum I could = add a altitude hold system for $1495. That would be a nice option and = takes no panel space other than a 3/" hole for the on/off button and I = could leave the Navaid in place. On the other had, I could sell the = Navaid for probably $1000 and go to a full auto pilot like the TruTrak = 200vs with GPS steering for $4950. Net cost after sale of Navaid about = $4000. What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective".=20 And by the way. I had a very nice flight today. The Trans Pac Race, = Los Angeles to Hawaii, left LA harbor at 1 PM today and I went out and = photographed the 60 boat fleet as they approached Santa Catalina Island = on their way out to sea. An absolutely beautiful scene on a beautiful = day...... I love flying my Velocity XL RG! Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America. Chris Martin Velocity XL RG ---=20 --- christophercmartin@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. _______________________________________________ To change your email = address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the = gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C34280.53EA0A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris,

I am not flying yet, but I have been spending = some time=20 evaluating equipment for my panel. I am impressed with the quality = of the=20 TruTrak line of auutopilots, and when you consider price/performance = ratios, I=20 think they are tough to beat. I have just about decided to order a = 200vs=20 for my XL, so I'll be interested to see the comments from the rest of = the=20 group. It's got to be a whole lot better than the = Navaid!

By the way, thanks for bringing your plane to = the Golden=20 West Fly-in a couple of weeks ago. Seeing a real flying Velocity = always=20 helps get the enthusiasm for building back up!

Keith Hallsten

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Chris Martin =

To: reflector

Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 = 6:07 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto = Pilots

I have been flying with the Navaid wing leveler for 340 hours. = Works=20 great as a wing leveler and for tracking the GPS. I am, however,=20 interested in doing more IFR flying and feel it would be a good = idea to=20 switch over to a 2 axis auto pilot with GPS steering, pitch = control,=20 altitude hold and vertical speed select. I have been looking at the = TruTrak=20 equipment.

http://www.trutra= kflightsystems.com/index.html

Anyone have any experience with this equipment. At the minimum I = could=20 add a altitude hold system for $1495. That would be a nice option and = takes no=20 panel space other than a 3/" hole for the on/off button and I could = leave the=20 Navaid in place. On the other had, I could sell the Navaid for = probably $1000=20 and go to a full auto pilot like the TruTrak 200vs with GPS steering = for=20 $4950. Net cost after sale of Navaid about $4000.

What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective".

And by the way. I had a very nice flight today. The Trans Pac = Race, Los=20 Angeles to Hawaii, left LA harbor at 1 PM today and I went out and=20 photographed the 60 boat fleet as they approached Santa Catalina = Island on=20 their way out to sea. An absolutely beautiful scene on a = beautiful=20 day...... I love flying my Velocity XL RG!

Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America.

Chris Martin

Velocity XL RG

---

--- christophercmartin@earth= link.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

_______________________________________________ To change your = email=20 address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit = the=20 gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C34280.53EA0A80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 15:45:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:45:13 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re:TruTrak Auto Pilots References: <410-220037651719744@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000e01c34304$0b291dc0$1648410c@BEATY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C342E2.83759870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am also considering TruTrak. Where did you get the price of $4950? = The last time I checked, it was much higher for the 2-axis version. = They were at about $7500 [street price?] 2 years ago, then raised the = price to about $9000. Maybe there's a discount price? =20 Pete Beaty RG-E a-buildin' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Martin=20 To: reflector=20 Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 9:07 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto Pilots I have been flying with the Navaid wing leveler for 340 hours. Works = great as a wing leveler and for tracking the GPS. I am, however, = interested in doing more IFR flying and feel it would be a good idea to = switch over to a 2 axis auto pilot with GPS steering, pitch control, = altitude hold and vertical speed select. I have been looking at the = TruTrak equipment.=20 http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html Anyone have any experience with this equipment. At the minimum I could = add a altitude hold system for $1495. That would be a nice option and = takes no panel space other than a 3/" hole for the on/off button and I = could leave the Navaid in place. On the other had, I could sell the = Navaid for probably $1000 and go to a full auto pilot like the TruTrak = 200vs with GPS steering for $4950. Net cost after sale of Navaid about = $4000. What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective".=20 And by the way. I had a very nice flight today. The Trans Pac Race, = Los Angeles to Hawaii, left LA harbor at 1 PM today and I went out and = photographed the 60 boat fleet as they approached Santa Catalina Island = on their way out to sea. An absolutely beautiful scene on a beautiful = day...... I love flying my Velocity XL RG! Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America. Chris Martin Velocity XL RG ---=20 --- christophercmartin@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. _______________________________________________ To change your email = address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the = gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C342E2.83759870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am also considering TruTrak. Where did = you get the=20 price of $4950? The last time I checked, it was much higher for = the 2-axis=20 version. They were at about $7500 [street price?] 2 years ago, = then raised=20 the price to about $9000. Maybe there's a discount price? =20

Pete Beaty

RG-E a-buildin'

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Chris Martin =

To: reflector

Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 = 9:07 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto = Pilots

http://www.trutra= kflightsystems.com/index.html

What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective".

Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America.

Chris Martin

Velocity XL RG

---

--- christophercmartin@earth= link.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

Pete,

The price I quoted was from the TruTrak web site. The digiflight 200 vs is $4575 plus 375 for GPS steering total of 4950.

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html

Chris

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: 7/5/2003 6:49:07 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Re:TruTrak Auto Pilots

I am also considering TruTrak. Where did you get the price of $4950? The last time I checked, it was much higher for the 2-axis version. They were at about $7500 [street price?] 2 years ago, then raised the price to about $9000. Maybe there's a discount price?

Pete Beaty

RG-E a-buildin'

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Martin

To: reflector

Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 9:07 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto Pilots

I have been flying with the Navaid wing leveler for 340 hours. Works great as a wing leveler and for tracking the GPS. I am, however, interested in doing more IFR flying and feel it would be a good idea to switch over to a 2 axis auto pilot with GPS steering, pitch control, altitude hold and vertical speed select. I have been looking at the TruTrak equipment.

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html

Anyone have any experience with this equipment. At the minimum I could add a altitude hold system for $1495. That would be a nice option and takes no panel space other than a 3/" hole for the on/off button and I could leave the Navaid in place. On the other had, I could sell the Navaid for probably $1000 and go to a full auto pilot like the TruTrak 200vs with GPS steering for $4950. Net cost after sale of Navaid about $4000.

What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective".

And by the way. I had a very nice flight today. The Trans Pac Race, Los Angeles to Hawaii, left LA harbor at 1 PM today and I went out and photographed the 60 boat fleet as they approached Santa Catalina Island on their way out to sea. An absolutely beautiful scene on a beautiful day...... I love flying my Velocity XL RG!

Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America.

Chris Martin

Velocity XL RG

---

--- christophercmartin@earthlink.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

_______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose

From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 17:02:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 11:02:16 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Forced Landing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Glad you are OK Sam.... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of AnnSam Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:55 PM To: Reflector@Tvbf. Org Subject: REFLECTOR:Forced Landing To all Velocity owners and builders, In case you didn�t already know this I want to attest to the fact that the Velocity is a great plane and the people at the Velocity factory are even greater. On July 1st I flew my Velocity to Sebastian to pick up some parts. On the way home the engine seized at about 1,500 feet and I was forced to land in a rough and I do mean rough field. I thought it was going to be just a routine off field landing with a probable broken nose gear. When I was about 20ft off the ground I saw the 2ft. wide by about 2ft.deep drainage ditches running across the whole field at about 75ft. apart. They could not be seen from the air, as they were overgrown with vegetation. At that point I had no choice, I had to land straight ahead. Had it been a spam can we would have sustained a lot more serious injury. Although the nose of the aircraft looks pretty bad it can be repaired. I didn�t know what I was going to do to get the broken aircraft out of the cow pasture in the middle of nowhere. While, I was at the Emergency room waiting on my friend I called the Velocity factory and told Dwayne of my problem. He got a crew together picked up the broken aircraft placed it on a trailer and took it back to the factory. I will be forever grateful to the Velocity crew and especially to Dwayne Swing. The Velocity was a good strong design when Danny Maher designed it and it�s even better now with the continuous factory improvements and mods. Velocity Standard Uni door Flying over 800hrs. fixed gear 180HP Lyc. Sam DaSilva _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 18:01:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (dean fitzbag) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:01:20 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C342ED.25EA4BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm still having difficulty finding and eliminating my fuel tank leaks. = Let me review what I have done. My two small bulkheads between the large rear bulkhead and the main spar = have already been installed, but I can get my hand through the opening. I reduce the pressure on my air tank/pump to a few psi (so I can easily = stop the flow with my finger) so as to not damage the tank. I can hear = the air escaping from behind the large bulkhead. When I first began = working on it, I could feel air coming from that area just by reaching = my hand in there. I have used a soapy solution, but cannot see any = bubbles. I have used this technique with tires before with good = results. However, the pressure in those cases were over 30psi. I then tried using the tubing as some of you suggested. The sound is = not localized and seems to be very steady all along the rear bulkhead. I have applied sealant all along the seam using a paint brush attached = to a pair of sticks so that I can adjust the paint brush after getting = it through the small bulkheads. It is hard to tell without quantitative measurement, but I think it is = improving some. I also tried to spray epoxy in the cavity using a water sprayer. The = epoxy and cabasil were too think to really spray. Any help would be appreciated. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C342ED.25EA4BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm still having difficulty finding and eliminating my fuel tank=20 leaks. Let me review what I have done.

My two small bulkheads between the large rear bulkhead and the main = spar=20 have already been installed, but I can get my hand through the = opening.

I reduce the pressure on my air tank/pump to a few psi (so I can = easily=20 stop the flow with my finger) so as to not damage the tank. I can = hear the=20 air escaping from behind the large bulkhead. When I first began = working on=20 it, I could feel air coming from that area just by reaching my hand in=20 there. I have used a soapy solution, but cannot see any = bubbles. I=20 have used this technique with tires before with good = results. =20 However, the pressure in those cases were over 30psi.

I then tried using the tubing as some of you suggested. The = sound is=20 not localized and seems to be very steady all along the rear=20 bulkhead.

I have applied sealant all along the seam using a paint brush = attached to a=20 pair of sticks so that I can adjust the paint brush after getting = it=20 through the small bulkheads.

It is hard to tell without quantitative measurement, but I think it = is=20 improving some.

I also tried to spray epoxy in the cavity using a water = sprayer. The=20 epoxy and cabasil were too think to really spray.

Any help would be appreciated.

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C342ED.25EA4BA0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 5 18:42:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:42:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing References: Message-ID: <00bb01c3431c$bea474e0$8ea2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01C342FB.37142F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would suggest lowering the pressure to nearly nothing - perhaps have a = friend blow into the hose, while you spray with dish detergent/water = solution. You should be able to make some good bubbles. If you use too = much pressure/flow, the bubbles will just burst before you can see them. Then as Dave Black suggests, make sure you pull a vacuum on the tank = (again a friend) while applying the epoxy. It really needs to flow into = the leak to be effective. If you just brush the surface you will get a = pretty light coating which can easily rupture. The flow into the crack = should be short. Don't suck it all the way into the tank. And be very careful about how much pressure you are putting on the tank = - no more than 1/2 to 3/4 psi. A good way to measure this is with a U = tube manometer made with 1/4 or 3/8 tubing. One end of the U tube = should be open. The other end connects to a tee. The one leg of the = tee connects to the tank, the other connects to a valve and hose that = you blow or suck depending on what you need. Each leg of the U needs to = go up at least 2 to 3 feet. Then by sucking or blowing, you can create = a differential water level of 12-18" of water. Good luck - don't give up - this has happened to a lots of folks! Ronnie Brown ----- Original Message -----=20 From: dean fitzbag=20 To: reflector=20 Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 1:01 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing I'm still having difficulty finding and eliminating my fuel tank = leaks. Let me review what I have done. My two small bulkheads between the large rear bulkhead and the main = spar have already been installed, but I can get my hand through the = opening. I reduce the pressure on my air tank/pump to a few psi (so I can = easily stop the flow with my finger) so as to not damage the tank. I = can hear the air escaping from behind the large bulkhead. When I first = began working on it, I could feel air coming from that area just by = reaching my hand in there. I have used a soapy solution, but cannot see = any bubbles. I have used this technique with tires before with good = results. However, the pressure in those cases were over 30psi. I then tried using the tubing as some of you suggested. The sound is = not localized and seems to be very steady all along the rear bulkhead. I have applied sealant all along the seam using a paint brush attached = to a pair of sticks so that I can adjust the paint brush after getting = it through the small bulkheads. It is hard to tell without quantitative measurement, but I think it is = improving some. I also tried to spray epoxy in the cavity using a water sprayer. The = epoxy and cabasil were too think to really spray. Any help would be appreciated. ------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01C342FB.37142F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would suggest lowering the pressure to nearly = nothing -=20 perhaps have a friend blow into the hose, while you spray with dish = detergent/water solution. You should be able to make some good = bubbles. If=20 you use too much pressure/flow, the bubbles will just burst before you = can see=20 them.

Then as Dave Black suggests, make sure you pull = a vacuum=20 on the tank (again a friend) while applying the epoxy. It really needs = to flow=20 into the leak to be effective. If you just brush the surface you = will get=20 a pretty light coating which can easily rupture. The flow into the = crack=20 should be short. Don't suck it all the way into the = tank.

And be very careful about how much pressure you = are=20 putting on the tank - no more than 1/2 to 3/4 psi. A good way to = measure=20 this is with a U tube manometer made with 1/4 or 3/8 tubing. One = end of=20 the U tube should be open. The other end connects to a tee. = The one=20 leg of the tee connects to the tank, the other connects to a valve and = hose that=20 you blow or suck depending on what you need. Each leg of the U = needs to go=20 up at least 2 to 3 feet. Then by sucking or blowing, you can = create a=20 differential water level of 12-18" of water.

Good luck - don't give up - this has happened to = a lots of=20 folks!

Ronnie Brown

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 dean = fitzbag=20
To: reflector

Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 = 1:01=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank = leak=20 testing

I'm still having difficulty finding and eliminating my fuel tank=20 leaks. Let me review what I have done.

My two small bulkheads between the large rear bulkhead and the = main spar=20 have already been installed, but I can get my hand through the = opening.

I reduce the pressure on my air tank/pump to a few psi (so I can = easily=20 stop the flow with my finger) so as to not damage the tank. I = can hear=20 the air escaping from behind the large bulkhead. When I first = began=20 working on it, I could feel air coming from that area just by reaching = my hand=20 in there. I have used a soapy solution, but cannot see any=20 bubbles. I have used this technique with tires before with = good=20 results. However, the pressure in those cases were over = 30psi.

I then tried using the tubing as some of you suggested. The = sound=20 is not localized and seems to be very steady all along the rear=20 bulkhead.

I have applied sealant all along the seam using a paint brush = attached to=20 a pair of sticks so that I can adjust the paint brush after = getting it=20 through the small bulkheads.

It is hard to tell without quantitative measurement, but I think = it is=20 improving some.

I also tried to spray epoxy in the cavity using a water = sprayer. =20 The epoxy and cabasil were too think to really spray.

Any help would be appreciated.

------=_NextPart_000_00B8_01C342FB.37142F00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 6 00:24:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:24:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re:TruTrak Auto Pilots References: <410-22003765151720960@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002001c3434c$906ace00$0200a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3432B.091DABA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By the way, Velocity is a dealer for TruTrak. Order through the factory = and save a few $$ off of the TruTrak price. Scott B. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Martin=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 11:17 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re:TruTrak Auto Pilots Pete, The price I quoted was from the TruTrak web site. The digiflight 200 = vs is $4575 plus 375 for GPS steering total of 4950. http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html Chris ----- Original Message -----=20 From:=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: 7/5/2003 6:49:07 AM=20 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re:TruTrak Auto Pilots I am also considering TruTrak. Where did you get the price of = $4950? The last time I checked, it was much higher for the 2-axis = version. They were at about $7500 [street price?] 2 years ago, then = raised the price to about $9000. Maybe there's a discount price? =20 Pete Beaty RG-E a-buildin' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Martin=20 To: reflector=20 Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 9:07 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak Auto Pilots I have been flying with the Navaid wing leveler for 340 hours. = Works great as a wing leveler and for tracking the GPS. I am, however, = interested in doing more IFR flying and feel it would be a good idea to = switch over to a 2 axis auto pilot with GPS steering, pitch control, = altitude hold and vertical speed select. I have been looking at the = TruTrak equipment.=20 http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html Anyone have any experience with this equipment. At the minimum I = could add a altitude hold system for $1495. That would be a nice option = and takes no panel space other than a 3/" hole for the on/off button and = I could leave the Navaid in place. On the other had, I could sell the = Navaid for probably $1000 and go to a full auto pilot like the TruTrak = 200vs with GPS steering for $4950. Net cost after sale of Navaid about = $4000. What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective".=20 And by the way. I had a very nice flight today. The Trans Pac = Race, Los Angeles to Hawaii, left LA harbor at 1 PM today and I went out = and photographed the 60 boat fleet as they approached Santa Catalina = Island on their way out to sea. An absolutely beautiful scene on a = beautiful day...... I love flying my Velocity XL RG! Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America. Chris Martin Velocity XL RG ---=20 --- christophercmartin@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. _______________________________________________ To change your = email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector = Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20 _______________________________________________ To change your email = address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the = gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3432B.091DABA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

By the way, Velocity is a dealer for = TruTrak. Order=20 through the factory and save a few $$ off of the TruTrak = price.

Scott B.

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Chris Martin =

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 = 11:17=20 AM

Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:Re:TruTrak Auto=20 Pilots

Pete,

The price I quoted was from the TruTrak web site. The digiflight = 200 vs=20 is $4575 plus 375 for GPS steering total of 4950.

http://www.trutra= kflightsystems.com/index.html

Chris

----- Original Message -----

From:=20

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: 7/5/2003 6:49:07 AM =

Subject: REFLECTOR:Re:TruTrak = Auto=20 Pilots

I am also considering TruTrak. Where = did you get=20 the price of $4950? The last time I checked, it was much = higher for=20 the 2-axis version. They were at about $7500 [street price?] 2 = years=20 ago, then raised the price to about $9000. Maybe there's a = discount=20 price?

Pete Beaty

RG-E a-buildin'

----- Original Message ----- =

From:=20 Chris Martin =

To: reflector

Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 = 9:07=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:TruTrak = Auto=20 Pilots

I have been flying with the Navaid wing leveler for 340 = hours. Works=20 great as a wing leveler and for tracking the GPS. I am, however,=20 interested in doing more IFR flying and feel it would be a = good idea=20 to switch over to a 2 axis auto pilot with GPS steering, = pitch=20 control, altitude hold and vertical speed select. I have been = looking at=20 the TruTrak equipment.

http://www.trutra= kflightsystems.com/index.html

Anyone have any experience with this equipment. At the = minimum I=20 could add a altitude hold system for $1495. That would be a nice = option=20 and takes no panel space other than a 3/" hole for the on/off = button and I=20 could leave the Navaid in place. On the other had, I could sell = the Navaid=20 for probably $1000 and go to a full auto pilot like the TruTrak = 200vs with=20 GPS steering for $4950. Net cost after sale of Navaid about = $4000.

What is the opinion of the "Great Reflector Collective". =

And by the way. I had a very nice flight today. The Trans Pac = Race,=20 Los Angeles to Hawaii, left LA harbor at 1 PM today and I went out = and=20 photographed the 60 boat fleet as they approached Santa Catalina = Island on=20 their way out to sea. An absolutely beautiful scene on a = beautiful=20 day...... I love flying my Velocity XL RG!

Happy 4th of July to all..... God Bless America.

Chris Martin

Velocity XL RG

---

--- christophercmartin@earth= link.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

_______________________________________________ To change = your=20 email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit=20 the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20 = ________________________________________= _______=20 To change your email address, visit=20 http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery!=20 tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3432B.091DABA0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 6 02:46:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 18:46:38 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030705182354.02c56340@mail.adelphia.net> If you're at a few PSI, you may have caused the leak blowing the skin off the spar. At a few psi you have thousands of pounds of peel force. As one of the other posters said, you shouldn't pressurize it more than by mouth - less than a PSI. You can get a gas detector cheaply at an RV supply place. Drip some propane in the tank, cover the fuel port with duct tape, run the detector around the area and play with the sensitivity, you'll get it isolated. For sealing it, you can put a slight vacuum on the tank with a shop vac (don't tape the hose in, you want the connection leaky) use a heat gun to get your epoxy very thin (it will exotherm, be careful) and dab it into the leak. Or use a syringe - good ones can be gotten from the Veterinary supply store. At 12:01 PM 7/5/03 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm still having difficulty finding and eliminating my fuel tank >leaks. Let me review what I have done. > >My two small bulkheads between the large rear bulkhead and the main spar >have already been installed, but I can get my hand through the opening. > >I reduce the pressure on my air tank/pump to a few psi (so I can easily >stop the flow with my finger) so as to not damage the tank. I can hear >the air escaping from behind the large bulkhead. When I first began >working on it, I could feel air coming from that area just by reaching my >hand in there. I have used a soapy solution, but cannot see any >bubbles. I have used this technique with tires before with good >results. However, the pressure in those cases were over 30psi. > >I then tried using the tubing as some of you suggested. The sound is not >localized and seems to be very steady all along the rear bulkhead. > >I have applied sealant all along the seam using a paint brush attached to >a pair of sticks so that I can adjust the paint brush after getting it >through the small bulkheads. > >It is hard to tell without quantitative measurement, but I think it is >improving some. > >I also tried to spray epoxy in the cavity using a water sprayer. The >epoxy and cabasil were too think to really spray. > >Any help would be appreciated. From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 6 03:09:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 21:09:29 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030705182354.02c56340@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: You can also use freon (134a) and a freon leak detector and the advantage of that is that freon is non flammable- not sure off hand how much the detectors are now, but if you can't borrow one from your friendly garage or Air Conditioning repair shop, O-Reilly has them. Yes, you need to be really careful with the pressure in that tank, we used to be able to move 5,000 pound injection molding dies with about 20 psi using an air pallet- basically it is just a steel pad with a rubber skirt at the bottom to keep the air in, and you lift the objects like a hovercraft, then all you need to do is push them around by hand- it always amazed us how much you can lift with just a few psi of air under there.... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of richard@riley.net Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 7:47 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing If you're at a few PSI, you may have caused the leak blowing the skin off the spar. At a few psi you have thousands of pounds of peel force. As one of the other posters said, you shouldn't pressurize it more than by mouth - less than a PSI. You can get a gas detector cheaply at an RV supply place. Drip some propane in the tank, cover the fuel port with duct tape, run the detector around the area and play with the sensitivity, you'll get it isolated. For sealing it, you can put a slight vacuum on the tank with a shop vac (don't tape the hose in, you want the connection leaky) use a heat gun to get your epoxy very thin (it will exotherm, be careful) and dab it into the leak. Or use a syringe - good ones can be gotten from the Veterinary supply store. At 12:01 PM 7/5/03 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm still having difficulty finding and eliminating my fuel tank >leaks. Let me review what I have done. > >My two small bulkheads between the large rear bulkhead and the main spar >have already been installed, but I can get my hand through the opening. > >I reduce the pressure on my air tank/pump to a few psi (so I can easily >stop the flow with my finger) so as to not damage the tank. I can hear >the air escaping from behind the large bulkhead. When I first began >working on it, I could feel air coming from that area just by reaching my >hand in there. I have used a soapy solution, but cannot see any >bubbles. I have used this technique with tires before with good >results. However, the pressure in those cases were over 30psi. > >I then tried using the tubing as some of you suggested. The sound is not >localized and seems to be very steady all along the rear bulkhead. > >I have applied sealant all along the seam using a paint brush attached to >a pair of sticks so that I can adjust the paint brush after getting it >through the small bulkheads. > >It is hard to tell without quantitative measurement, but I think it is >improving some. > >I also tried to spray epoxy in the cavity using a water sprayer. The >epoxy and cabasil were too think to really spray. > >Any help would be appreciated. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 6 19:02:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:02:44 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Static Port Message-ID: <39.3b0666e1.2c39be44@aol.com> --part1_39.3b0666e1.2c39be44_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott Why not trying a temporary single static port inside the cabin away from all air vents? Mack --part1_39.3b0666e1.2c39be44_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott
Why not trying a temporary single static port inside the cabin away from al= l air vents?
Mack --part1_39.3b0666e1.2c39be44_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 6 21:22:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:22:01 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing Message-ID: We move a 14,000 lb skid with 20 psi air in an air pallet. As Alexander noted, add up all the square inches and take it times a few psi and saaazzammm, up it goes. One power plant inadvertently sucked a 5 psi vacuum on a 25,000 gallon tank. It is now a 15,000 gallon stainless steel tank (can you visualize a crushed beer can?). I would think 5 psi air in a 50 gallon tank would try to make it a 70 gallon tank. The shop vacuum sounds like a good idea but DO NOT SEAL the nozzle around the tank opening. Ever see those commercials where they advertise a storage system for blankets and sweaters....you put the clothes in a bag, turn on this rinky-dink vacuum they provide and it sucks that bag down to nothing. Same things; small vacuum but many square inches of surface area. Good luck and goooo easyyyy. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 10:09 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing You can also use freon (134a) and a freon leak detector and the advantage of that is that freon is non flammable- not sure off hand how much the detectors are now, but if you can't borrow one from your friendly garage or Air Conditioning repair shop, O-Reilly has them. Yes, you need to be really careful with the pressure in that tank, we used to be able to move 5,000 pound injection molding dies with about 20 psi using an air pallet- basically it is just a steel pad with a rubber skirt at the bottom to keep the air in, and you lift the objects like a hovercraft, then all you need to do is push them around by hand- it always amazed us how much you can lift with just a few psi of air under there.... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of richard@riley.net Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 7:47 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing If you're at a few PSI, you may have caused the leak blowing the skin off the spar. At a few psi you have thousands of pounds of peel force. As one of the other posters said, you shouldn't pressurize it more than by mouth - less than a PSI. You can get a gas detector cheaply at an RV supply place. Drip some propane in the tank, cover the fuel port with duct tape, run the detector around the area and play with the sensitivity, you'll get it isolated. For sealing it, you can put a slight vacuum on the tank with a shop vac (don't tape the hose in, you want the connection leaky) use a heat gun to get your epoxy very thin (it will exotherm, be careful) and dab it into the leak. Or use a syringe - good ones can be gotten from the Veterinary supply store. At 12:01 PM 7/5/03 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm still having difficulty finding and eliminating my fuel tank >leaks. Let me review what I have done. > >My two small bulkheads between the large rear bulkhead and the main spar >have already been installed, but I can get my hand through the opening. > >I reduce the pressure on my air tank/pump to a few psi (so I can easily >stop the flow with my finger) so as to not damage the tank. I can hear >the air escaping from behind the large bulkhead. When I first began >working on it, I could feel air coming from that area just by reaching my >hand in there. I have used a soapy solution, but cannot see any >bubbles. I have used this technique with tires before with good >results. However, the pressure in those cases were over 30psi. > >I then tried using the tubing as some of you suggested. The sound is not >localized and seems to be very steady all along the rear bulkhead. > >I have applied sealant all along the seam using a paint brush attached to >a pair of sticks so that I can adjust the paint brush after getting it >through the small bulkheads. > >It is hard to tell without quantitative measurement, but I think it is >improving some. > >I also tried to spray epoxy in the cavity using a water sprayer. The >epoxy and cabasil were too think to really spray. > >Any help would be appreciated. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 03:35:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:35:42 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: Message-ID: <3F08DC7E.2060301@tnstaafl.net> I pulled my 4-into-1 exhaust system off today to wrap it with header tape. Trying to cool things down in this 100 degree heat! I found another(actually two) crack(s) where the 4 pipes go into 1. I have had this thing welded two times already for previous cracks, in 200+ hours. Third times the charm, its getting scraped. I looked on the Velocity web site and saw a rearward and a forward facing set advertised. Why would anybody want a forward facing set of exhaust stacks? Anybody have a few hundred hours on one of these sets with good service? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 13:39:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Milton Mersky) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 07:39:11 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <3F08DC7E.2060301@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F0969EF.8080505@airmail.net> Scott: We have 630 hours on our plane . IO 360. Both stacks, facing rearward toward the prop, have been replaced due to cracks in the same location as yours. How about sending them out for coating as the auto guys do. Not ceramic, but another type. Milt Scott Derrick wrote: > I pulled my 4-into-1 exhaust system off today to wrap it with header > tape. Trying to cool things down in this 100 degree heat! > > I found another(actually two) crack(s) where the 4 pipes go into 1. I > have had this thing welded two times already for previous cracks, in > 200+ hours. Third times the charm, its getting scraped. > > I looked on the Velocity web site and saw a rearward and a forward > facing set advertised. Why would anybody want a forward facing set of > exhaust stacks? Anybody have a few hundred hours on one of these sets > with good service? > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 15:07:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 10:07:07 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes In-Reply-To: <003101c3426d$ea395440$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> References: <003101c3426d$ea395440$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: Keith, I have the compound Matco brakes and have been flying for about 55 hours. I have not had the heat problems that were experienced with the early version. if you have not had the brakes reworked to the Rev A modification you need to send them back to Matco and get that done. I was the first one to install the heat shield ( phenolic) because of all the reported heat problems with the original compound brake problems. I am not sure they are really required. I put heat detection indicators (Tape) on each brake housing. the lowest indicator is at 130 degrees and it has not indicated that the brake has ever gotten to that temperature. I have just used the brakes in a routine manner and have not done any intentional panic stops etc. I disassembled the brakes after about 10 hours just to check and everything looked fine with very little wear. I feel like when landing I have as much brake as I need. my aircraft seem to decelerate pretty well once I touch down and only minor braking is necessary to turn off in about 2000 feet. I have been flying at sea level with density altitudes under 2000 feet and mostly light airplane configurations. Jack N55XL From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 15:13:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 08:13:03 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <3F08DC7E.2060301@tnstaafl.net> <3F0969EF.8080505@airmail.net> Message-ID: <3F097FEF.7070605@tnstaafl.net> The V Factory has rearward facing stacks for the IO360 for $400 Custom Aircraft parts(known for their excellent work) has them for $615. They offer 3 or 4 variants with different dimensions to fit your cowling, etc.. I don't know who makes the factory ones. Scott Milton Mersky wrote: > Scott: > > We have 630 hours on our plane . IO 360. Both stacks, facing rearward > toward the prop, have been replaced due to cracks in the same location > as yours. How about sending them out for coating as the auto guys do. > Not ceramic, but another type. > > Milt > > Scott Derrick wrote: > >> I pulled my 4-into-1 exhaust system off today to wrap it with header >> tape. Trying to cool things down in this 100 degree heat! >> >> I found another(actually two) crack(s) where the 4 pipes go into 1. I >> have had this thing welded two times already for previous cracks, in >> 200+ hours. Third times the charm, its getting scraped. >> >> I looked on the Velocity web site and saw a rearward and a forward >> facing set advertised. Why would anybody want a forward facing set of >> exhaust stacks? Anybody have a few hundred hours on one of these sets >> with good service? >> >> Scott >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 15:41:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 08:41:49 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <3F08DC7E.2060301@tnstaafl.net> <3F0969EF.8080505@airmail.net> <3F097FEF.7070605@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F0986AD.7090804@tnstaafl.net> I just got off the phone with Brendan at the factory and he certainly makes the forward facing system sound like a good choice. No exhaust stains on the prop... But the Custom Aircraft system is so well designed with each port a spring captured slip joint.. One year warrantee... Decisions decisions.. Scott Scott Derrick wrote: > The V Factory has rearward facing stacks for the IO360 for $400 > > Custom Aircraft parts(known for their excellent work) has them for $615. > They offer 3 or 4 variants with different dimensions to fit your > cowling, etc.. > > I don't know who makes the factory ones. > > Scott > > Milton Mersky wrote: > >> Scott: >> >> We have 630 hours on our plane . IO 360. Both stacks, facing rearward >> toward the prop, have been replaced due to cracks in the same location >> as yours. How about sending them out for coating as the auto guys do. >> Not ceramic, but another type. >> >> Milt >> >> Scott Derrick wrote: >> >>> I pulled my 4-into-1 exhaust system off today to wrap it with header >>> tape. Trying to cool things down in this 100 degree heat! >>> >>> I found another(actually two) crack(s) where the 4 pipes go into 1. I >>> have had this thing welded two times already for previous cracks, in >>> 200+ hours. Third times the charm, its getting scraped. >>> >>> I looked on the Velocity web site and saw a rearward and a forward >>> facing set advertised. Why would anybody want a forward facing set >>> of exhaust stacks? Anybody have a few hundred hours on one of these >>> sets with good service? >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 16:06:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Milton Mersky) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 10:06:49 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <3F08DC7E.2060301@tnstaafl.net> <3F0969EF.8080505@airmail.net> <3F097FEF.7070605@tnstaafl.net> <3F0986AD.7090804@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F098C89.2070703@airmail.net> Scott: If you use slip joints, can you replace just parts or do you have to replace the entire stack.? If just parts are to be replaced, go that way. Milt Scott Derrick wrote: > I just got off the phone with Brendan at the factory and he certainly > makes the forward facing system sound like a good choice. No exhaust > stains on the prop... > > But the Custom Aircraft system is so well designed with each port a > spring captured slip joint.. One year warrantee... > > Decisions decisions.. > > Scott > > Scott Derrick wrote: > >> The V Factory has rearward facing stacks for the IO360 for $400 >> >> Custom Aircraft parts(known for their excellent work) has them for >> $615. They offer 3 or 4 variants with different dimensions to fit >> your cowling, etc.. >> >> I don't know who makes the factory ones. >> >> Scott >> >> Milton Mersky wrote: >> >>> Scott: >>> >>> We have 630 hours on our plane . IO 360. Both stacks, facing >>> rearward toward the prop, have been replaced due to cracks in the >>> same location as yours. How about sending them out for coating as >>> the auto guys do. Not ceramic, but another type. >>> >>> Milt >>> >>> Scott Derrick wrote: >>> >>>> I pulled my 4-into-1 exhaust system off today to wrap it with >>>> header tape. Trying to cool things down in this 100 degree heat! >>>> >>>> I found another(actually two) crack(s) where the 4 pipes go into 1. >>>> I have had this thing welded two times already for previous >>>> cracks, in 200+ hours. Third times the charm, its getting scraped. >>>> >>>> I looked on the Velocity web site and saw a rearward and a forward >>>> facing set advertised. Why would anybody want a forward facing set >>>> of exhaust stacks? Anybody have a few hundred hours on one of >>>> these sets with good service? >>>> >>>> Scott >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To change your email address, visit >>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 16:43:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:43:44 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Matco Compound Brakes References: <003101c3426d$ea395440$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <002101c3449e$8c8d5520$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Jack, Thanks for the data point. I'm glad the compound brakes are working out for you. I have had my set of brakes brought up to "Rev. A", so that part is good to go. At this point it looks unlikely that I'll be using them before mid-2004; I just ordered an engine, which is supposed to arrive this October. Still lots of work to do! Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Sheehan" To: Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:07 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cleveland Brakes > Keith, > I have the compound Matco brakes and have been flying for about 55 > hours. I have not had the heat problems that were experienced with > the early version. if you have not had the brakes reworked to the Rev > A modification you need to send them back to Matco and get that done. > I was the first one to install the heat shield ( phenolic) because of > all the reported heat problems with the original compound brake > problems. I am not sure they are really required. I put heat > detection indicators (Tape) on each brake housing. the lowest > indicator is at 130 degrees and it has not indicated that the brake > has ever gotten to that temperature. I have just used the brakes in a > routine manner and have not done any intentional panic stops etc. I > disassembled the brakes after about 10 hours just to check and > everything looked fine with very little wear. I feel like when > landing I have as much brake as I need. my aircraft seem to > decelerate pretty well once I touch down and only minor braking is > necessary to turn off in about 2000 feet. I have been flying at sea > level with density altitudes under 2000 feet and mostly light > airplane configurations. > Jack > N55XL > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 20:37:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:37:21 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Led Lights Message-ID: <000c01c344bf$2f53f6e0$9865fea9@tungsten.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34495.461E90D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just saw this and thought some of you might be interested! http://www.luxaura.com ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34495.461E90D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I just saw this and thought some = of you might=20 be interested!

http://www.luxaura.com

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34495.461E90D0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 21:33:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 13:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems In-Reply-To: <3F098C89.2070703@airmail.net> Message-ID: <20030707203327.91351.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> Scott, Without slip joints you will almost always get cracking because each cylinder is expanding at a different rate due to uneven heating. As far as no stains on the prop, I have two to one on my IO-360 rear facing except that the rear end of the pipe has a 90 degree elbow which has been milled off flush with the bottom of the pipe leaving a large oval hole with a tip down end. This mixes the exhaust with the air passing around the fairing and turns it down slightly. At most after several hours I get a slight haze on the prop that just wipes off. I can send you a picture directly if you like. Jim --- Milton Mersky wrote: > > Scott: > > If you use slip joints, can you replace just parts or do > you have to > replace the entire stack.? > > If just parts are to be replaced, go that way. > > Milt > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > I just got off the phone with Brendan at the factory > and he certainly > > makes the forward facing system sound like a good > choice. No exhaust > > stains on the prop... > > > > But the Custom Aircraft system is so well designed with > each port a > > spring captured slip joint.. One year warrantee... > > > > Decisions decisions.. > > > > Scott > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > >> The V Factory has rearward facing stacks for the IO360 > for $400 > >> > >> Custom Aircraft parts(known for their excellent work) > has them for > >> $615. They offer 3 or 4 variants with different > dimensions to fit > >> your cowling, etc.. > >> > >> I don't know who makes the factory ones. > >> > >> Scott > >> > >> Milton Mersky wrote: > >> > >>> Scott: > >>> > >>> We have 630 hours on our plane . IO 360. Both stacks, > facing > >>> rearward toward the prop, have been replaced due to > cracks in the > >>> same location as yours. How about sending them out > for coating as > >>> the auto guys do. Not ceramic, but another type. > >>> > >>> Milt > >>> > >>> Scott Derrick wrote: > >>> > >>>> I pulled my 4-into-1 exhaust system off today to > wrap it with > >>>> header tape. Trying to cool things down in this 100 > degree heat! > >>>> > >>>> I found another(actually two) crack(s) where the 4 > pipes go into 1. > >>>> I have had this thing welded two times already for > previous > >>>> cracks, in 200+ hours. Third times the charm, its > getting scraped. > >>>> > >>>> I looked on the Velocity web site and saw a rearward > and a forward > >>>> facing set advertised. Why would anybody want a > forward facing set > >>>> of exhaust stacks? Anybody have a few hundred hours > on one of > >>>> these sets with good service? > >>>> > >>>> Scott > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> To change your email address, visit > >>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>>> > >>>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> To change your email address, visit > >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>> > >>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To change your email address, visit > >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 21:42:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 16:42:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Williamsburg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack, I don't know if I'll be able to make it to Williamsburg. It looks like it will be a great time. Either way I wanted to say thanks for all the time and planning you have put into it. It is appreciated. Best, Andy From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 21:44:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 13:44:21 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Franklin cross-over tubing. Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C344C8.8B2C0821" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C344C8.8B2C0821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to fit the bottom cowl on my SUV and am having a "fit" issue. The problem is that the Franklin has a pretty beefy pipe that goes between left and right induction manifold. The pipe hits the bottom cowl so that it will sit about 2 inches low at the tail end. I distinctly remember someone mentioning that they got a set that is turned "up" so that it clears the bottom cowl but I cannot find the reference or the source of such part in my mail archive. =20 How did others with Franklin get around this issue? =20 Hiroo ------_=_NextPart_001_01C344C8.8B2C0821 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am trying to fit the bottom cowl on my SUV and am = having a “fit” issue. The problem is that the = Franklin has a pretty beefy pipe that goes between left and right induction = manifold. The pipe hits the bottom cowl so that it will sit about 2 inches low at the = tail end. I distinctly remember someone mentioning that they got a set = that is turned “up” so that it clears the bottom cowl but I cannot = find the reference or the source of such part in my mail = archive.

How did others with Franklin get around this issue?

Hiroo

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C344C8.8B2C0821-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 00:37:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:37:40 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:fuel tank leak testing Message-ID: --part1_b6.1f8f89b6.2c3b5e44_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a similar problem with my tanks, 2 very small leaks. I ended up buying a couple of those large party balloons and put one inside the other (1 by itself didn't have enough pressure). I rubberbanded it to the fuel inlet tube, blocked off the vent, and found the leak using the soap trick. This allowed me to find the leaks by myself, and then I used a vacuum pulled on the tank with my mouth on a hose connected to the inlet line... and painted the leaks with warm epoxy & cabo. All sealed in an hour. Best of luck. Kurt Winker. --part1_b6.1f8f89b6.2c3b5e44_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had a similar problem with my tanks, 2 very small le= aks. I ended up buying a couple of those large party balloons and put=20= one inside the other (1 by itself didn't have enough pressure). I rubb= erbanded it to the fuel inlet tube, blocked off the vent, and found the leak= using the soap trick.

This allowed me to find the leaks by myself, and then I used a vacuum pulled= on the tank with my mouth on a hose connected to the inlet line... and pain= ted the leaks with warm epoxy & cabo. All sealed in an hour. =

Best of luck. Kurt Winker. --part1_b6.1f8f89b6.2c3b5e44_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 00:40:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:40:59 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems Message-ID: <152.21621b48.2c3b5f0b@aol.com> --part1_152.21621b48.2c3b5f0b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott, I had custom aircraft parts make the exhaust for my V-6 velocity. I liked it so much I had them rework the exhaust on the Cherokee 235, and again they did fantastic work. Thanks for your recommendation on them Kurt Winker --part1_152.21621b48.2c3b5f0b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, I had custom aircraft parts make th= e exhaust for my V-6 velocity. I liked it so much I had them rework th= e exhaust on the Cherokee 235, and again they did fantastic work.

Thanks for your recommendation on them

Kurt Winker --part1_152.21621b48.2c3b5f0b_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 00:51:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mark Means) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:51:24 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <152.21621b48.2c3b5f0b@aol.com> Message-ID: <001c01c344e2$ad792040$6fc46cd8@net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C344C1.2585ABC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kurt, Do you have pictures of your exhaust? Is it stainless? Thanks. Mark Means ----- Original Message -----=20 From: NMFlyer1@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems Scott, I had custom aircraft parts make the exhaust for my V-6 = velocity. I liked it so much I had them rework the exhaust on the = Cherokee 235, and again they did fantastic work. =20 Thanks for your recommendation on them =20 Kurt Winker=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C344C1.2585ABC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kurt,

Do you have pictures of your exhaust? Is it = stainless?=20 Thanks.

Mark Means

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 NMFlyer1@aol.com=20

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 = 7:40 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Exhuast=20 systems

Scott, I had custom aircraft parts = make the=20 exhaust for my V-6 velocity. I liked it so much I had them = rework the=20 exhaust on the Cherokee 235, and again they did fantastic work. =20

Thanks for your recommendation on them =

Kurt Winker=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C344C1.2585ABC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 01:21:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 16:21:57 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Franklin cross-over tubing. References: Message-ID: <001801c344e6$f1f29680$6bb070d1@jeffreyhome> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C344A3.E2FC7620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I made a new crosover pipe from some easy to bend copper tubing... tried = aluminum , but it was hard to bend 'just right '. The new crossover = goes over the top of the engine shaft instead of under it JC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hiroo Umeno=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:44 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Franklin cross-over tubing. I am trying to fit the bottom cowl on my SUV and am having a "fit" = issue. The problem is that the Franklin has a pretty beefy pipe that = goes between left and right induction manifold. The pipe hits the = bottom cowl so that it will sit about 2 inches low at the tail end. I = distinctly remember someone mentioning that they got a set that is = turned "up" so that it clears the bottom cowl but I cannot find the = reference or the source of such part in my mail archive. How did others with Franklin get around this issue? Hiroo ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C344A3.E2FC7620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I made a new crosover pipe from some easy to = bend=20 copper tubing... tried aluminum , but it was hard to bend 'just right = '. =20 The new crossover goes over the top of the engine shaft = instead of=20 under it JC

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Hiroo=20 Umeno
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 = 12:44=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Franklin = cross-over=20 tubing.

I am trying to fit the = bottom cowl=20 on my SUV and am having a =93fit=94 issue. The problem is that = the=20 Franklin has a=20 pretty beefy pipe that goes between left and right induction = manifold. =20 The pipe hits the bottom cowl so that it will sit about 2 inches low = at the=20 tail end. I distinctly remember someone mentioning that they got = a set=20 that is turned =93up=94 so that it clears the bottom cowl but I cannot = find the=20 reference or the source of such part in my mail = archive.

How did others with=20 Franklin get=20 around this issue?

Hiroo

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C344A3.E2FC7620-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 02:13:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 19:13:48 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <152.21621b48.2c3b5f0b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F0A1ACC.2040508@tnstaafl.net> Kurt, I'm leaning pretty heavily right now towards having Custom make up a set of rearward facing exhaust tubes for my IO360. They are $200 more than the factory pipes but they do such nice work. My rebuilt Bonanza exhaust looked better than new. One year guarantee from Custom also. http://www.customaircraft.com/ Scott NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote: > Scott, I had custom aircraft parts make the exhaust for my V-6 > velocity. I liked it so much I had them rework the exhaust on the > Cherokee 235, and again they did fantastic work. > > Thanks for your recommendation on them > > Kurt Winker From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 02:17:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 19:17:12 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <152.21621b48.2c3b5f0b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F0A1B98.40806@tnstaafl.net> I found out from the factory that one of the reasons they quite selling the 4-into-1 system that "was" on my plane was overheating. Having all those cross over tubes in an updraft system and they cross so close to the oil pan they cooked the oil. Be interesting to see how the temps run when I switch to a rearward 4 into 4 or 2 into 1 system. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 03:23:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:23:21 +0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Franklin cross-over tubing. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1781853046.20030708102321@yahoo.com.au> Hi Hiroo, Tuesday, July 8, 2003, 4:44:21 AM, you wrote: HU> I am trying to fit the bottom cowl on my SUV and am having a "fit" issue. HU> How did others with Franklin get around this issue? If I recall correctly, the original Franklin balance tube setup consists of; 2x aluminum 'funnels' that bolt on rear of manifolds 1x crossover pipe (straight with 90 degree elbow on each end) 2x rubber hose joiners and clamps I took the crossover tube and the 2 'funnels' to a welding shop, had them cut off the short lengths of tube from each 'funnel'. Also cut the 2 elbows off the crossover tube. Weld the elbows onto the funnels so that when you fit the modified parts to the engine you will have balance tube ports that 'point' towards the engine center line instead of straight back (in other words replace the straight funnel exits for 90deg elbows). Next bend some suitable ali pipe that goes *over* the engine and connect using the original 2 rubber hose joiners. This will free up considerable space so that lower cowl modification for the balance tubes is unnecessary. -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 14:02:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:02:08 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Diesel Engine Article Message-ID: <000f01c34551$239264d0$9865fea9@tungsten.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C34527.3A4C35E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.machinedesign.com/ASP/viewSelectedArticle.asp?strArticleId=3D5= 5900&strSite=3DMDSite&Screen=3DAEROSPACE&catId=3D379 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C34527.3A4C35E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.machinedesign.com/ASP/viewSelectedArticle.asp?strArticleId=3D= 55900&strSite=3DMDSite&Screen=3DAEROSPACE&catId=3D379

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C34527.3A4C35E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 14:42:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <20030707203327.91351.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F0ACA4B.392B72AE@dixie-net.com> Do the prop stains indicate inadequate mixture leaning? John Jim Agnew wrote: > Scott, > > Without slip joints you will almost always get cracking > because each cylinder is expanding at a different rate due > to uneven heating. As far as no stains on the prop, I have > two to one on my IO-360 rear facing except that the rear > end of the pipe has a 90 degree elbow which has been milled > off flush with the bottom of the pipe leaving a large oval > hole with a tip down end. This mixes the exhaust with the > air passing around the fairing and turns it down slightly. > At most after several hours I get a slight haze on the prop > that just wipes off. I can send you a picture directly if > you like. > > Jim > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 15:13:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 07:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems In-Reply-To: <3F0ACA4B.392B72AE@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <20030708141355.55328.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> No, it is just a light gray haze and covers about 4-5" of the back of the blades. It could occur during high power rich mixture during takeoff and landing. The prop is not stained, it is surface dust. Jim --- John Dibble wrote: > Do the prop stains indicate inadequate mixture leaning? > > John > > Jim Agnew wrote: > > > Scott, > > > > Without slip joints you will almost always get cracking > > because each cylinder is expanding at a different rate > due > > to uneven heating. As far as no stains on the prop, I > have > > two to one on my IO-360 rear facing except that the > rear > > end of the pipe has a 90 degree elbow which has been > milled > > off flush with the bottom of the pipe leaving a large > oval > > hole with a tip down end. This mixes the exhaust with > the > > air passing around the fairing and turns it down > slightly. > > At most after several hours I get a slight haze on the > prop > > that just wipes off. I can send you a picture directly > if > > you like. > > > > Jim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 15:43:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:43:30 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems Message-ID: <1ef.cd28094.2c3c3292@aol.com> In a message dated 7/7/03 6:19:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, scott@tnstaafl.net writes: << I found out from the factory that one of the reasons they quite selling the 4-into-1 system that "was" on my plane was overheating. Having all those cross over tubes in an updraft system and they cross so close to the oil pan they cooked the oil. >> I have been flying the 4into1s for almost 8 years and 600hrs. They do run close to the sump. I would run high oil temps at first with only the front cooler, then I installed a rear, and never have any oil temp problems now. One thing however, they do send all four pulses into the prop and leave residue on one blade. With a three blade, you can't clock it not to hit one. I really like the idea of the forward facing pipes. It would prevent the residue and heat on the prop however I have never noticed any "cooking" of the prop or paint. TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 16:08:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 09:08:36 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Forced Landing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Sam, I agree that we've got a very strong ship, but it does help if the pilot can keep his cool in such a high stress situation. Glad you're going to rebuild and be back up there soon. Highest regards, Dennis Martin >To all Velocity owners and builders, > In case you didn�t already know this I want to attest to the >fact that the >Velocity is a great plane and the people at the Velocity factory are even >greater. > On July 1st I flew my Velocity to Sebastian to pick up some >parts. On the >way home the engine seized at about 1,500 feet and I was forced to land in a >rough and I do mean rough field. I thought it was going to be just a routine >off field landing with a probable broken nose gear. When I was about 20ft >off the ground I saw the 2ft. wide by about 2ft.deep drainage ditches >running across the whole field at about 75ft. apart. They could not be seen >from the air, as they were overgrown with vegetation. At that point I had no >choice, I had to land straight ahead. Had it been a spam can we would have >sustained a lot more serious injury. Although the nose of the aircraft looks >pretty bad it can be repaired. > I didn�t know what I was going to do to get the broken >aircraft out of the >cow pasture in the middle of nowhere. While, I was at the Emergency room >waiting on my friend I called the Velocity factory and told Dwayne of my >problem. He got a crew together picked up the broken aircraft placed it on a >trailer and took it back to the factory. > I will be forever grateful to the Velocity crew and >especially to Dwayne >Swing. The Velocity was a good strong design when Danny Maher designed it >and it�s even better now with the continuous factory improvements and mods. > Velocity Standard Uni door Flying over 800hrs. fixed gear 180HP Lyc. > > Sam DaSilva > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 17:07:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 10:07:02 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <1ef.cd28094.2c3c3292@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F0AEC26.9030000@tnstaafl.net> TEC, Did you get this from the factory? Have you had any cracking problems? Scott HYTEC45@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/7/03 6:19:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > scott@tnstaafl.net writes: > > << I found out from the factory that one of the reasons they quite selling > the 4-into-1 system that "was" on my plane was overheating. Having all > those cross over tubes in an updraft system and they cross so close to > the oil pan they cooked the oil. > >> > I have been flying the 4into1s for almost 8 years and 600hrs. They do run > close to the sump. I would run high oil temps at first with only the front > cooler, then I installed a rear, and never have any oil temp problems now. One > thing however, they do send all four pulses into the prop and leave residue on > one blade. With a three blade, you can't clock it not to hit one. I really > like the idea of the forward facing pipes. It would prevent the residue and > heat on the prop however I have never noticed any "cooking" of the prop or paint. > > TEC > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 18:36:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:36:47 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Instrument Check Ride Checklist Message-ID: <016e01c34577$82175da0$3264ab44@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_016B_01C34555.FAAA3020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I swiped this off the Canard list from=20 Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder Oviedo, FL USA "I am getting ready to take the check ride for my instrument rating = later in the week, but I've been talking to a DE about it. He = emphasized that he already knows that I am an instrument pilot. When I = asked him how he knew this, he said "because the CFI-I that gave you = the endorsement to take the check ride said you are." He went on to say = that I should show up for the check ride confident that I will pass = because most likely I will. His only task is to provide the FAA with a = 2nd opinion. He also said that there are three levels of training that = I should be aware of. They are teacher, performance and evaluation. The = teacher training requires perfection, because the CFI-I is trying to = achieve perfection in the student. The next training level is that = required by me - my performance. I strive to be as near perfect as I = can, since that's what the CFI-I is expecting of me. The last one is = evaluation, which is the DE's job. He said that he doesn't require = perfection, because no one is perfect. He gave the written test as an = example. One can make a 70 on that test. The FAA will actually pass = someone who gets 30% - almost 1/3, of the questions wrong. He said that = as long as I can demonstrate proficiency in what the PTS requires, he = will pass me. He told me that I should not try to compete with his = experience, only to do my best when I'm up there proving to him that I = am indeed an instrument pilot. While with him, we started talking about the oral exam. He said that = the same thing holds true there. He volunteered an example on his own. = He said that most people teach and learn that the four things required = on an airplane can be remembered as AROW - Airworthiness certificate, = Registration, Operating limitations, and Weight and balance. I said = that this is what I have been taught. He then pulled out a sheet and = gave it to me. The sheet said as follows: CFI SPECIAL EMPHASIS PROGRAM AIRWORTHINESS CHECKLIST No secrets, No surprises: in addition to items required by FAR 91 for = General Operating and Flight Rules, the following items must be present = in order to render a Standard Airworthiness determination on an = aircraft: 1. Airworthiness Certification (FAR 91.203) 2. Registration Certificate (FAR 912.203) 3. Aircraft Flight manual or Pilot Operating Handbook (current revision), including current weight and balance data (FAR 91.9) 4. Annual and/or 100 hour inspection due date (FAR 91.409/417) 5. Current Status of Life - limited parts per T.C.D.S. (FAR 91.417) 6. VOR Equipment Check for IFR operations (FAR 91.171) 7. ELT - battery due date (FAR 91.207(c)) 8. ELT - ops inspection within last 12 months (FAR 91.207) 9. Static system inspection certification (FAR 91.411) 10. Altimeter Inspection Certification (FAR 91.411) 11. Transponder Inspection Certification (FAR 911.413) 12. Current status listing all application Airworthiness Directives including time or date of recurring action (91.417) 13. FAA form 337s for alterations or repairs (FAR 91.417) 14. Inoperative Equipment Certifications (FAR 91.405) 15. External data Plate/Serial Number (FAR 45.11) "Airworthy" means an aircraft or one of its component parts meets its = type design (or is properly altered) and is in a condition for safe = operation (FAR 21.31). The DE said that the old memory aid AROW is now obsolete because our = society has become a litigious society, and we need to adhere to the = FARs and include all requirements, since the lawyers will go through = them with a fine tooth comb. Although I've known about the above = requirements for a while, I've never seen them all written down = together. Hopefully all of us are aware of these requirements every = time we fly. Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder Oviedo, FL USA ------=_NextPart_000_016B_01C34555.FAAA3020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I swiped this off the Canard list from=20

Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard=20 Builder

Oviedo, FL =20 USA

"I am getting ready to take the check = ride for my=20 instrument rating later in the week, but I've been talking to a DE about = it. He emphasized that he already knows that I am an instrument=20 pilot. When I asked him how he knew this, he said "because = the=20 CFI-I that gave you the endorsement to take the check ride said you = are." He went on to say that I should show up for the check ride = confident=20 that I will pass because most likely I will. His only task is to = provide=20 the FAA with a 2nd opinion. He also said that there are three = levels of=20 training that I should be aware of. They are teacher, performance and=20 evaluation. The teacher training requires perfection, because the = CFI-I is=20 trying to achieve perfection in the student. The next training = level is=20 that required by me - my performance. I strive to be as near = perfect=20 as I can, since that's what the CFI-I is expecting of me. The last = one is=20 evaluation, which is the DE's job. He said that he doesn't require = perfection, because no one is perfect. He gave the written test as = an=20 example. One can make a 70 on that test. The FAA will = actually pass=20 someone who gets 30% - almost 1/3, of the questions wrong. He said = that as=20 long as I can demonstrate proficiency in what the PTS requires, he will = pass=20 me. He told me that I should not try to compete with his = experience, only=20 to do my best when I'm up there proving to him that I am indeed an = instrument=20 pilot.

While with him, we started talking = about the oral=20 exam. He said that the same thing holds true there. He = volunteered=20 an example on his own. He said that most people teach and learn = that the=20 four things required on an airplane can be remembered as AROW - = Airworthiness=20 certificate, Registration, Operating limitations, and Weight and = balance. =20 I said that this is what I have been taught. He then pulled out a = sheet=20 and gave it to me. The sheet said as follows:

CFI SPECIAL = EMPHASIS=20 PROGRAM AIRWORTHINESS CHECKLIST

No secrets, No surprises: = in addition=20 to items required by FAR 91 for General Operating and Flight Rules, the=20 following items must be present in order to render a Standard = Airworthiness=20 determination on an aircraft:

   = 1. =20 Airworthiness Certification (FAR 91.203)
   2. = Registration=20 Certificate (FAR 912.203)
   3. Aircraft Flight = manual or=20 Pilot Operating Handbook = (current
       =20 revision), including current weight and balance data (FAR = 91.9)
  =20 4. Annual and/or 100 hour inspection due date (FAR=20 91.409/417)
   5. Current Status of Life - limited = parts per=20 T.C.D.S. (FAR 91.417)
   6. VOR Equipment Check for = IFR=20 operations (FAR 91.171)
   7. ELT - battery due date = (FAR=20 91.207(c))
   8. ELT - ops inspection within last 12 = months=20 (FAR 91.207)
   9. Static system inspection = certification=20 (FAR 91.411)
10. Altimeter Inspection Certification (FAR = 91.411)
11. Transponder Inspection Certification (FAR=20 911.413)
12. Current status listing all application=20 Airworthiness = Directives
        =20 including time or date of recurring action (91.417)
13. = FAA form=20 337s for alterations or repairs (FAR 91.417)
14. = Inoperative=20 Equipment Certifications (FAR 91.405)
15. External data = Plate/Serial=20 Number (FAR 45.11)

"Airworthy" means an aircraft = or one of its=20 component parts meets its type design (or is properly altered) and is in = a=20 condition for safe operation (FAR 21.31).

The DE said that the old memory = aid AROW is=20 now obsolete because our society has become a litigious society, and we = need to=20 adhere to the FARs and include all requirements, since the lawyers will = go=20 through them with a fine tooth comb. Although I've known about the = above=20 requirements for a while, I've never seen them all written down = together. =20 Hopefully all of us are aware of these requirements every time we=20 fly.

Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard=20 Builder

Oviedo, FL =20 USA

------=_NextPart_000_016B_01C34555.FAAA3020-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 18:57:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (J.P. Brooks) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 10:57:25 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Instrument Check Ride Checklist In-Reply-To: <016e01c34577$82175da0$3264ab44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030708105402.009e9c60@mail.cwebs.com> --=====================_118450561==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed now don't forget the ones they are really looking for........ airmanship and judgement. Like life, instrument flying is always corrections back to the optimum conditions. The smaller the correction that need be made the less time and effort it takes. Good luck, safe travels. At 01:36 PM 7/8/2003 -0400, you wrote: >I swiped this off the Canard list from >Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder >Oviedo, FL USA > > > >"I am getting ready to take the check ride for my instrument rating later >in the week, but I've been talking to a DE about it. He emphasized that >he already knows that I am an instrument pilot. When I asked him how he >knew this, he said "because the CFI-I that gave you the endorsement to >take the check ride said you are." He went on to say that I should show >up for the check ride confident that I will pass because most likely I >will. His only task is to provide the FAA with a 2nd opinion. He also >said that there are three levels of training that I should be aware of. >They are teacher, performance and evaluation. The teacher training >requires perfection, because the CFI-I is trying to achieve perfection in >the student. The next training level is that required by me - my >performance. I strive to be as near perfect as I can, since that's what >the CFI-I is expecting of me. The last one is evaluation, which is the >DE's job. He said that he doesn't require perfection, because no one is >perfect. He gave the written test as an example. One can make a 70 on >that test. The FAA will actually pass someone who gets 30% - almost 1/3, >of the questions wrong. He said that as long as I can demonstrate >proficiency in what the PTS requires, he will pass me. He told me that I >should not try to compete with his experience, only to do my best when I'm >up there proving to him that I am indeed an instrument pilot. > >While with him, we started talking about the oral exam. He said that the >same thing holds true there. He volunteered an example on his own. He >said that most people teach and learn that the four things required on an >airplane can be remembered as AROW - Airworthiness certificate, >Registration, Operating limitations, and Weight and balance. I said that >this is what I have been taught. He then pulled out a sheet and gave it >to me. The sheet said as follows: > > CFI SPECIAL EMPHASIS PROGRAM AIRWORTHINESS CHECKLIST > >No secrets, No surprises: in addition to items required by FAR 91 for >General Operating and Flight Rules, the following items must be present in >order to render a Standard Airworthiness determination on an aircraft: > > 1. Airworthiness Certification (FAR 91.203) > 2. Registration Certificate (FAR 912.203) > 3. Aircraft Flight manual or Pilot Operating Handbook (current > revision), including current weight and balance data (FAR 91.9) > 4. Annual and/or 100 hour inspection due date (FAR 91.409/417) > 5. Current Status of Life - limited parts per T.C.D.S. (FAR 91.417) > 6. VOR Equipment Check for IFR operations (FAR 91.171) > 7. ELT - battery due date (FAR 91.207(c)) > 8. ELT - ops inspection within last 12 months (FAR 91.207) > 9. Static system inspection certification (FAR 91.411) > 10. Altimeter Inspection Certification (FAR 91.411) > 11. Transponder Inspection Certification (FAR 911.413) > 12. Current status listing all application Airworthiness Directives > including time or date of recurring action (91.417) > 13. FAA form 337s for alterations or repairs (FAR 91.417) > 14. Inoperative Equipment Certifications (FAR 91.405) > 15. External data Plate/Serial Number (FAR 45.11) > > >"Airworthy" means an aircraft or one of its component parts meets its type >design (or is properly altered) and is in a condition for safe operation >(FAR 21.31). > > >The DE said that the old memory aid AROW is now obsolete because our >society has become a litigious society, and we need to adhere to the FARs >and include all requirements, since the lawyers will go through them with >a fine tooth comb. Although I've known about the above requirements for a >while, I've never seen them all written down together. Hopefully all of >us are aware of these requirements every time we fly. > >Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder >Oviedo, FL USA --=====================_118450561==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
now don't forget the ones they are really looking for........
airmanship and judgement.
Like life, instrument flying is always corrections back to the optimum conditions. The smaller the correction that need be made the less time and effort it takes.
Good luck, safe travels.

At 01:36 PM 7/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:

I swiped this off t= he Canard list from
Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder
Oviedo, FL USA

"I am getting ready to take the check rid= e for my instrument rating later in the week, but I've been talking to a DE about it. He emphasized that he already knows that I am an instrument pilot. When I asked him how he knew this, he said "because the CFI-I that gave you the endorsement to take the check ride said you are." He went on to say that I should show up for the check ride confident that I will pass because most likely I will. His only task is to provide the FAA with a 2nd opinion. He also said that there are three levels of training that I should be aware of. They are teacher, performance and evaluation. The teacher training requires perfection, because the CFI-I is trying to achieve perfection in the student. The next training level is that required by me - my performance. I strive to be as near perfect as I can, since that's what the CFI-I is expecting of me. The last one is evaluation, which is the DE's job. He said that he doesn't require perfection, because no one is perfect. He gave the written test as an example. One can make a 70 on that test. The FAA will actually pass someone who gets 30% - almost 1/3, of the questions wrong. He said that as long as I can demonstrate proficiency in what the PTS requires, he will pass me. He told me that I should not try to compete with his experience, only to do my best when I'm up there proving to him that I am indeed an instrument pilot.

While with him, we started talking about the oral exam. He said that the same thing holds true there. He volunteered an example on his own. He said that most people teach and learn that the four things required on an airplane can be remembered as AROW - Airworthiness certificate, Registration, Operating limitations, and Weight and balance. I said that this is what I have been taught. He then pulled out a sheet and gave it to me. The sheet said as follows:

    CFI SPECIAL EMPHASIS PROGRAM AIRWORTHINESS CHECKLIST

No secrets, No surprises: in addition to items required by FAR 91 for General Operating and Flight Rules, the following items must be present in order to render a Standard Airworthiness determination on an aircraft:

   1. Airworthiness Certification (FAR 91.203)
   2. Registration Certificate (FAR 912.203)
   3. Aircraft Flight manual or Pilot Operating Handbook (current
        revision), including current weight and balance data (FAR 91.9)
   4. Annual and/or 100 hour inspection due date (FAR 91.409/417)
   5. Current Status of Life - limited parts per T.C.D.S. (FAR 91.417)
   6. VOR Equipment Check for IFR operations (FAR 91.171)
   7. ELT - battery due date (FAR 91.207(c))
   8. ELT - ops inspection within last 12 months (FAR 91.207)
   9. Static system inspection certification (FAR 91.411)
10. Altimeter Inspection Certification (FAR 91.411)
11. Transponder Inspection Certification (FAR 911.413)
12. Current status listing all application Airworthiness Directives
         including time or date of recurring action (91.417)
13. FAA form 337s for alterations or repairs (FAR 91.417)
14. Inoperative Equipment Certifications (FAR 91.405)
15. External data Plate/Serial Number (FAR 45.11)

"Airworthy" means an aircraft or one of its component parts meets its type design (or is properly altered) and is in a condition for safe operation (FAR 21.31).

The DE said that the old memory aid AROW is no= w obsolete because our society has become a litigious society, and we need to adhere to the FARs and include all requirements, since the lawyers will go through them with a fine tooth comb. Although I've known about the above requirements for a while, I've never seen them all written down together. Hopefully all of us are aware of these requirements every time we fly.

Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder
Oviedo, FL USA

--=====================_118450561==_.ALT-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 19:00:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:00:22 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: [Canards] Airworthiness Checklist References: <051501c34573$95226240$6501a8c0@CAFEF00D> Message-ID: <3F0B06B6.3010106@tnstaafl.net> Of course #5, #12, #13 don't apply to experimentals. #9 & #10 are duplicates. #14 is interesting since it refers back to Part 43 which is not applicable to experimentals.... One for the lawyers. #4 We don't have Annuals, or 100 hours inspections, so wrong FAR #11 I think you only need this if you fly in class A,B,C or above 12,000 ft. You were right in your AR(R)OW list. That's what you need on board. You don't need the rest of this stuff on the airplane. Scott S Ramirez wrote: > I am getting ready to take the checkride for my instrument rating later > in the week, but I've been talking to a DE about it. He emphasized that > he already knows that I am an instrument pilot. When I asked him how he > knew this, he said "because the CFI-I that gave you the endorsement to > take the checkride said you are." He went on to say that I should show > up for the checkride confident that I will pass because most likely I > will. His only task is to provide the FAA with a 2nd opinion. He also > said that there are three levels of training that I should be aware of. > They are teacher, performance and evaluation. The teacher training > requires perfection, because the CFI-I is trying to achieve perfection > in the student. The next training level is that required by me - my > performance. I strive to be as near perfect as I can, since that's what > the CFI-I is expecting of me. The last one is evaluation, which is the > DE's job. He said that he doesn't require perfection, because no one is > perfect. He gave the written test as an example. One can make a 70 on > that test. The FAA will actually pass someone who gets 30% - almost > 1/3, of the questions wrong. He said that as long as I can demonstrate > proficiency in what the PTS requires, he will pass me. He told me that > I should not try to compete with his experience, only to do my best when > I'm up there proving to him that I am indeed an instrument pilot. > > While with him, we started talking about the oral exam. He said that > the same thing holds true there. He volunteered an example on his own. > He said that most people teach and learn that the four things required > on an airplane can be remembered as AROW - Airworthiness certificate, > Registration, Operating limitations, and Weight and balance. I said > that this is what I have been taught. He then pulled out a sheet and > gave it to me. The sheet said as follows: > > CFI SPECIAL EMPHASIS PROGRAM AIRWORTHINESS CHECKLIST > > No secrets, No surprises: in addition to items required by FAR 91 for > General Operating and Flight Rules, the following items must be present > in order to render a Standard Airworthiness determination on an aircraft: > > 1. Airworthiness Certification (FAR 91.203) > 2. Registration Certificate (FAR 912.203) > 3. Aircraft Flight manual or Pilot Operating Handbook (current > revision), including current weight and balance data (FAR 91.9) > 4. Annual and/or 100 hour inspection due date (FAR 91.409/417) > 5. Current Status of Life - limited parts per T.C.D.S. (FAR 91.417) > 6. VOR Equipment Check for IFR operations (FAR 91.171) > 7. ELT - battery due date (FAR 91.207(c)) > 8. ELT - ops inspection within last 12 months (FAR 91.207) > 9. Static system inspection certification (FAR 91.411) > 10. Altimeter Inspection Certification (FAR 91.411) > 11. Transponder Inspection Certification (FAR 911.413) > 12. Current status listing all application Airworthiness Directives > including time or date of recurring action (91.417) > 13. FAA form 337s for alterations or repairs (FAR 91.417) > 14. Inoperative Equipment Certifications (FAR 91.405) > 15. External data Plate/Serial Number (FAR 45.11) > "Airworthy" means an aircraft or one of its component parts meets its > type design (or is properly altered) and is in a condition for safe > operation (FAR 21.31). > > > The DE said that the old memory aid AROW is now obsolete because our > society has become a litigious society, and we need to adhere to the > FARs and include all requirements, since the lawyers will go through > them with a fine tooth comb. Although I've known about the above > requirements for a while, I've never seen them all written down > together. Hopefully all of us are aware of these requirements every > time we fly. > > Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder > Oviedo, FL USA From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 19:24:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:24:49 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: [Canards] Airworthiness Checklist References: <051501c34573$95226240$6501a8c0@CAFEF00D> <3F0B06B6.3010106@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <01a801c3457e$37d4e1c0$3264ab44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Come on, Scott, you're a bit testy today, eh? Most instrument check rides aren't going to take place in an experimental (not to say that it can't be done), so Simon's list is probably more accurate than your chop job. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 2:00 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: [Canards] Airworthiness Checklist | Of course #5, #12, #13 don't apply to experimentals. | | #9 & #10 are duplicates. | | #14 is interesting since it refers back to Part 43 which is not | applicable to experimentals.... One for the lawyers. | | #4 We don't have Annuals, or 100 hours inspections, so wrong FAR | | #11 I think you only need this if you fly in class A,B,C or above 12,000 ft. | | You were right in your AR(R)OW list. That's what you need on board. | | You don't need the rest of this stuff on the airplane. | | Scott | | S Ramirez wrote: | > I am getting ready to take the checkride for my instrument rating later | > in the week, but I've been talking to a DE about it. He emphasized that | > he already knows that I am an instrument pilot. When I asked him how he | > knew this, he said "because the CFI-I that gave you the endorsement to | > take the checkride said you are." He went on to say that I should show | > up for the checkride confident that I will pass because most likely I | > will. His only task is to provide the FAA with a 2nd opinion. He also | > said that there are three levels of training that I should be aware of. | > They are teacher, performance and evaluation. The teacher training | > requires perfection, because the CFI-I is trying to achieve perfection | > in the student. The next training level is that required by me - my | > performance. I strive to be as near perfect as I can, since that's what | > the CFI-I is expecting of me. The last one is evaluation, which is the | > DE's job. He said that he doesn't require perfection, because no one is | > perfect. He gave the written test as an example. One can make a 70 on | > that test. The FAA will actually pass someone who gets 30% - almost | > 1/3, of the questions wrong. He said that as long as I can demonstrate | > proficiency in what the PTS requires, he will pass me. He told me that | > I should not try to compete with his experience, only to do my best when | > I'm up there proving to him that I am indeed an instrument pilot. | > | > While with him, we started talking about the oral exam. He said that | > the same thing holds true there. He volunteered an example on his own. | > He said that most people teach and learn that the four things required | > on an airplane can be remembered as AROW - Airworthiness certificate, | > Registration, Operating limitations, and Weight and balance. I said | > that this is what I have been taught. He then pulled out a sheet and | > gave it to me. The sheet said as follows: | > | > CFI SPECIAL EMPHASIS PROGRAM AIRWORTHINESS CHECKLIST | > | > No secrets, No surprises: in addition to items required by FAR 91 for | > General Operating and Flight Rules, the following items must be present | > in order to render a Standard Airworthiness determination on an aircraft: | > | > 1. Airworthiness Certification (FAR 91.203) | > 2. Registration Certificate (FAR 912.203) | > 3. Aircraft Flight manual or Pilot Operating Handbook (current | > revision), including current weight and balance data (FAR 91.9) | > 4. Annual and/or 100 hour inspection due date (FAR 91.409/417) | > 5. Current Status of Life - limited parts per T.C.D.S. (FAR 91.417) | > 6. VOR Equipment Check for IFR operations (FAR 91.171) | > 7. ELT - battery due date (FAR 91.207(c)) | > 8. ELT - ops inspection within last 12 months (FAR 91.207) | > 9. Static system inspection certification (FAR 91.411) | > 10. Altimeter Inspection Certification (FAR 91.411) | > 11. Transponder Inspection Certification (FAR 911.413) | > 12. Current status listing all application Airworthiness Directives | > including time or date of recurring action (91.417) | > 13. FAA form 337s for alterations or repairs (FAR 91.417) | > 14. Inoperative Equipment Certifications (FAR 91.405) | > 15. External data Plate/Serial Number (FAR 45.11) | > "Airworthy" means an aircraft or one of its component parts meets its | > type design (or is properly altered) and is in a condition for safe | > operation (FAR 21.31). | > | > | > The DE said that the old memory aid AROW is now obsolete because our | > society has become a litigious society, and we need to adhere to the | > FARs and include all requirements, since the lawyers will go through | > them with a fine tooth comb. Although I've known about the above | > requirements for a while, I've never seen them all written down | > together. Hopefully all of us are aware of these requirements every | > time we fly. | > | > Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder | > Oviedo, FL USA | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 19:46:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:46:52 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: [Canards] Airworthiness Checklist References: <051501c34573$95226240$6501a8c0@CAFEF00D> <3F0B06B6.3010106@tnstaafl.net> <01a801c3457e$37d4e1c0$3264ab44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F0B119C.2030007@tnstaafl.net> Ronnie, No chop job intended. Just pointing out the weak links, that list is not cast in stone. Scott Ronnie Brown wrote: > Come on, Scott, you're a bit testy today, eh? > > Most instrument check rides aren't going to take place in an experimental > (not to say that it can't be done), so Simon's list is probably more > accurate than your chop job. > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Derrick" > To: ; > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 2:00 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: [Canards] Airworthiness Checklist > > > | Of course #5, #12, #13 don't apply to experimentals. > | > | #9 & #10 are duplicates. > | > | #14 is interesting since it refers back to Part 43 which is not > | applicable to experimentals.... One for the lawyers. > | > | #4 We don't have Annuals, or 100 hours inspections, so wrong FAR > | > | #11 I think you only need this if you fly in class A,B,C or above 12,000 > ft. > | > | You were right in your AR(R)OW list. That's what you need on board. > | > | You don't need the rest of this stuff on the airplane. > | > | Scott > | > | S Ramirez wrote: > | > I am getting ready to take the checkride for my instrument rating later > | > in the week, but I've been talking to a DE about it. He emphasized that > | > he already knows that I am an instrument pilot. When I asked him how he > | > knew this, he said "because the CFI-I that gave you the endorsement to > | > take the checkride said you are." He went on to say that I should show > | > up for the checkride confident that I will pass because most likely I > | > will. His only task is to provide the FAA with a 2nd opinion. He also > | > said that there are three levels of training that I should be aware of. > | > They are teacher, performance and evaluation. The teacher training > | > requires perfection, because the CFI-I is trying to achieve perfection > | > in the student. The next training level is that required by me - my > | > performance. I strive to be as near perfect as I can, since that's what > | > the CFI-I is expecting of me. The last one is evaluation, which is the > | > DE's job. He said that he doesn't require perfection, because no one is > | > perfect. He gave the written test as an example. One can make a 70 on > | > that test. The FAA will actually pass someone who gets 30% - almost > | > 1/3, of the questions wrong. He said that as long as I can demonstrate > | > proficiency in what the PTS requires, he will pass me. He told me that > | > I should not try to compete with his experience, only to do my best when > | > I'm up there proving to him that I am indeed an instrument pilot. > | > > | > While with him, we started talking about the oral exam. He said that > | > the same thing holds true there. He volunteered an example on his own. > | > He said that most people teach and learn that the four things required > | > on an airplane can be remembered as AROW - Airworthiness certificate, > | > Registration, Operating limitations, and Weight and balance. I said > | > that this is what I have been taught. He then pulled out a sheet and > | > gave it to me. The sheet said as follows: > | > > | > CFI SPECIAL EMPHASIS PROGRAM AIRWORTHINESS CHECKLIST > | > > | > No secrets, No surprises: in addition to items required by FAR 91 for > | > General Operating and Flight Rules, the following items must be present > | > in order to render a Standard Airworthiness determination on an > aircraft: > | > > | > 1. Airworthiness Certification (FAR 91.203) > | > 2. Registration Certificate (FAR 912.203) > | > 3. Aircraft Flight manual or Pilot Operating Handbook (current > | > revision), including current weight and balance data (FAR 91.9) > | > 4. Annual and/or 100 hour inspection due date (FAR 91.409/417) > | > 5. Current Status of Life - limited parts per T.C.D.S. (FAR 91.417) > | > 6. VOR Equipment Check for IFR operations (FAR 91.171) > | > 7. ELT - battery due date (FAR 91.207(c)) > | > 8. ELT - ops inspection within last 12 months (FAR 91.207) > | > 9. Static system inspection certification (FAR 91.411) > | > 10. Altimeter Inspection Certification (FAR 91.411) > | > 11. Transponder Inspection Certification (FAR 911.413) > | > 12. Current status listing all application Airworthiness Directives > | > including time or date of recurring action (91.417) > | > 13. FAA form 337s for alterations or repairs (FAR 91.417) > | > 14. Inoperative Equipment Certifications (FAR 91.405) > | > 15. External data Plate/Serial Number (FAR 45.11) > | > "Airworthy" means an aircraft or one of its component parts meets its > | > type design (or is properly altered) and is in a condition for safe > | > operation (FAR 21.31). > | > > | > > | > The DE said that the old memory aid AROW is now obsolete because our > | > society has become a litigious society, and we need to adhere to the > | > FARs and include all requirements, since the lawyers will go through > | > them with a fine tooth comb. Although I've known about the above > | > requirements for a while, I've never seen them all written down > | > together. Hopefully all of us are aware of these requirements every > | > time we fly. > | > > | > Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder > | > Oviedo, FL USA > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 21:01:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants Message-ID: Has anyone installed or have a source for throttle quadrants similar to the throttle/prop/mixture quadrants that are supplied with some simulators (what I would call a horizontal base plate with a 70 degree throw). The quadrants installed on my XL are somewhat weird and "uncomfortable." The mixture is the traditional push/pull but the throttle and prop are on a unit with a vertical base plate mounted on the side of the cabin (joystick in the console). The throw is about 110 degrees. In other words, the first 20-30 degrees (from 7:00 o'clock), you kind of have to lift up on them, then they start moving forward as you go past the 9:00 position. They are full throttle at about the 12:00 position. Particularly annoying is they are not linear, but that's a different problem. I'd like to replace them with a quadrant that has a horizontal base and the throw starts at about 9:00 and moves up to 11:30, much like the kind on simulators. Any one have any suggested source or suggestions? Is it less hassle just to go to all push/pull controls? Chuck N27GV P.S. I know, I know, the degrees and clock positions don't add up but the idea is the same. From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 20:27:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:27:38 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems Message-ID: <6f.3aa89320.2c3c752a@aol.com> In a message dated 7/8/03 9:09:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, scott@tnstaafl.net writes: << TEC, Did you get this from the factory? Have you had any cracking problems? Scott >> I didn't get them from the factory. I got them in 94 from, SKY DYNAMICS CORP (703) 297-6754 At the time, the factory only had the 2 into 1, and these guys developed the 4 into 1. I think later the factory started selling Sky Dynamics. Know they may be knockoffs of the original now. It's been so long I don't even know if they are still there, or the # is good. They are thick wall SS with slip joints at all four cylinders, and haven't cracked yet (knock on wood). TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 20:48:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:48:32 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34589.E9573183 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBnb3QgbXkgcXVhZHJhbnRzIGF0IEFpcmNyYWZ0IFNwcnVjZSAtLSB0aHJlZSBsZXZlcnM6IHNo b3J0LCBtZWRpdW0gYW5kIGxvbmcgKHdpdGggYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgY29sb3JlZCBrbm9icykgLS0g aW50ZXJuYWxseSByZXZlcnNhYmxlIChmb3IgdXNlIG9uIGxlZnQgb3IgcmlnaHQgc2lkZSkgLi4u IGFuZCB0aGV5IHdvcmsgZ3JlYXQuDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglG cm9tOiBDaHVjayBKZW5zZW4gW21haWx0bzpjamVuc2VuQGR0czkwMDAuY29tXSANCglTZW50OiBU dWUgNy84LzIwMDMgMjowMSBQTSANCglUbzogJ3JlZmxlY3RvckB0dmJmLm9yZycgDQoJQ2M6IA0K CVN1YmplY3Q6IFJFRkxFQ1RPUjpUaHJvdHRsZSBRdWFkcmFudHMNCgkNCgkNCg0KCUhhcyBhbnlv bmUgaW5zdGFsbGVkIG9yIGhhdmUgYSBzb3VyY2UgZm9yIHRocm90dGxlIHF1YWRyYW50cyBzaW1p 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Before the bankruptcy, some kit buyers received straight stacks with their kits. There is information-not necessarily accurate or current-that Kevin Murray (Sky Dynamics, Smith Mountain Lake, VA 24121; 703 297-6754) made the tuned stacks for Questair. He might be available for repairs, or advice. It has been heard that tuned stacks don't crack if better supported. Tuned stacks give the Venture 7 additional HP. Editor How ever, ringing that number gives you a fast-busy signal which indicates it's not in service. Good luck and happy hunting. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of HYTEC45@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 3:28 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems In a message dated 7/8/03 9:09:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, scott@tnstaafl.net writes: << TEC, Did you get this from the factory? Have you had any cracking problems? Scott >> I didn't get them from the factory. I got them in 94 from, SKY DYNAMICS CORP (703) 297-6754 At the time, the factory only had the 2 into 1, and these guys developed the 4 into 1. I think later the factory started selling Sky Dynamics. Know they may be knockoffs of the original now. It's been so long I don't even know if they are still there, or the # is good. They are thick wall SS with slip joints at all four cylinders, and haven't cracked yet (knock on wood). TEC _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 20:54:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems In-Reply-To: <3F0A1ACC.2040508@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <20030708195425.40931.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Another thing to consider is the greater potential for fire damage from an exhaust failure with a forward facing system. If the stack breaks off just before the cantilevered tailpipe section (the typical failure location on the these systems), the hot exhaust gas is now pointing towards the engine mount, firewall, and lots of sensitive plumbing (fluid, electrical, and mechanical). You can get some protection by using fire barriers and shielding, but there is only so much you can do. Pat --- Scott Derrick wrote: > Kurt, > > I'm leaning pretty heavily right now towards having > Custom make up a set > of rearward facing exhaust tubes for my IO360. They > are $200 more than > the factory pipes but they do such nice work. My > rebuilt Bonanza > exhaust looked better than new. > > One year guarantee from Custom also. > > http://www.customaircraft.com/ > > Scott __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 04:10:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:10:29 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <20030708195425.40931.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003401c345c7$a6b20980$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Pat, I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes bent 45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still happy with yours? Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:54 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems > Another thing to consider is the greater potential > for fire damage from an exhaust failure with a forward > facing system. If the stack breaks off just before the > cantilevered tailpipe section (the typical failure > location on the these systems), the hot exhaust gas is > now pointing towards the engine mount, firewall, and > lots of sensitive plumbing (fluid, electrical, and > mechanical). You can get some protection by using fire > barriers and shielding, but there is only so much you > can do. > > Pat > > --- Scott Derrick wrote: > > Kurt, > > > > I'm leaning pretty heavily right now towards having > > Custom make up a set > > of rearward facing exhaust tubes for my IO360. They > > are $200 more than > > the factory pipes but they do such nice work. My > > rebuilt Bonanza > > exhaust looked better than new. > > > > One year guarantee from Custom also. > > > > http://www.customaircraft.com/ > > > > Scott > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 04:37:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:37:15 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <003401c345c7$a6b20980$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> References: <20030708195425.40931.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030708203501.02c2a870@mail.adelphia.net> Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve 540 Berkut, it sounds like they are very similar. I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic ignition or you'll cook the prop. At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: >Pat, >I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts >about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. >Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes bent >45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still happy with yours? >Keith Hallsten From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 06:03:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:03:29 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <20030708195425.40931.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030708203501.02c2a870@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <005901c345d7$70596da0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C3459C.C3C099E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, No, the Berkut exhaust shown on the Custom Aircraft website exits the cowl right next to the ring gear, aimed right at the root of the prop blades. The system I'm talking about exits directly below the #3 & #4 cylinders. The photos on their website http://www.customaircraft.com/images/VELOCITYP.JPG shows this clearly. After hearing others discuss their experience with burning the finish off their prop blades, I wouldn't want to go with the Berkut style. The modification I'm conteplating looks like the attached drawing. I am going with the LASER electronically-controlled magnetos. These do adjust the ignition timing with altitude & power setting, so they do help keep the EGTs down, like Electronic Ignition. However, even a total electrical failure would just make them revert to being standard fixed-timing Slick mags, which would be more than adequate to "limp" home. Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:37 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve 540 Berkut, it > sounds like they are very similar. > > I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic ignition or you'll > cook the prop. > > At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: > >Pat, > >I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts > >about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. > >Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes bent > >45 degrees towards the prop. 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<5.2.0.9.2.20030708203501.02c2a870@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030708220733.02c0ad70@mail.adelphia.net> Got it. Yes, turning the ends aft toward the prop would give you a couple of knots. At 10:03 PM 7/8/03 -0700, KeithHallsten wrote: >Richard, > >No, the Berkut exhaust shown on the Custom Aircraft website exits the cowl >right next to the ring gear, aimed right at the root of the prop blades. >The system I'm talking about exits directly below the #3 & #4 cylinders. >The photos on their website >http://www.customaircraft.com/images/VELOCITYP.JPG shows this clearly. >After hearing others discuss their experience with burning the finish off >their prop blades, I wouldn't want to go with the Berkut style. > >The modification I'm conteplating looks like the attached drawing. > >I am going with the LASER electronically-controlled magnetos. These do >adjust the ignition timing with altitude & power setting, so they do help >keep the EGTs down, like Electronic Ignition. However, even a total >electrical failure would just make them revert to being standard >fixed-timing Slick mags, which would be more than adequate to "limp" home. > >Keith Hallsten > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:37 PM >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve 540 Berkut, it > > sounds like they are very similar. > > > > I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic ignition or >you'll > > cook the prop. > > > > At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: > > >Pat, > > >I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts > > >about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. > > >Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes >bent > > >45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still happy with >yours? > > >Keith Hallsten > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 07:52:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dane White) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:52:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chuck, Check out the throttle quadrant in development by Infinity Aerospace mentioned on their web site at: http://www.infinityaerospace.com/ I had a chance to play around with their prototype while at Sun-N-Fun, and I plan to replace my current, awkward, engine controls with the Infinity unit when it becomes available. According to the web site, Infinity's engine control quadrant should be available by OSH. On Tuesday, Jul 8, 2003, at 15:01 US/Central, Chuck Jensen wrote: > Has anyone installed or have a source for throttle quadrants similar > to the > throttle/prop/mixture quadrants that are supplied with some simulators > (what > I would call a horizontal base plate with a 70 degree throw). > > > Chuck > N27GV > > Dane White VELO STD RG, FRANKLIN/CATTO Murfreesboro Tennessee From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 11:30:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Lanza) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 06:30:10 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <005901c345d7$70596da0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <51727083-B1F8-11D7-AD84-000393BC26D4@bellsouth.net> Hi Guys, Please note that the aircraft shown in the photos at the web site mentioned below is a standard body Elite NOT an XL. Looking at the last photo you will also see that this exhaust system will require a substantial blister (bulge) to fair in the pipes. I'd suspect that an installation on an XL would also require some fairing work... Fly Safe, Wayne Lanza Composite Design, Inc. I'll be at Oshkosh with Velocity this year, please stop by & visit. visit our web page: http://www.CompositeDesignInc.com ________________________________________________________________ On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 01:03 AM, KeithHallsten wrote: > Richard, > > No, the Berkut exhaust shown on the Custom Aircraft website exits the > cowl > right next to the ring gear, aimed right at the root of the prop > blades. > The system I'm talking about exits directly below the #3 & #4 > cylinders. > The photos on their website > http://www.customaircraft.com/images/VELOCITYP.JPG shows this clearly. > > Keith Hallsten From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 12:35:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 04:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <51727083-B1F8-11D7-AD84-000393BC26D4@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20030709113533.52495.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Keith/Richard/Wayne, I had Clinton at Custom Aircraft Parts design a new exhaust system specifically for the XL w/ an IO-540 that he felt would not be prone to cracking (obvious reasons), wasn't forward facing (fire concerns), and wasn't rearward facing (prop cooking issues w/ IO-540 & three blades). There is considerably more cowl clearance than my factory system w/ no blisters or bulges required. Keith, I'm not flying so no field report yet - Clinton might be able to give you a reference to someone who is flying w/ this system. As far as the 90* bends, that probably will be more aerodynamic - that exhaust plume exiting at least 90* to the airstream can't be pretty. I would think you'd want there to be 1 1/2" - 2" between the outside of the lower cowl and the top of the exhaust pipe after the bend to avoid permanent cowling stains, which means there's going to be 4"-5" of pipe exposed to the airstream. That shouldn't be an issue w/ this system, although I think that much pipe sticking could cause problems w/ a forward facing stack. Hopefully we can compare notes once we're both flying! Best, Pat --- Wayne Lanza wrote: > Hi Guys, > Please note that the aircraft shown in the photos > at the web site > mentioned below > is a standard body Elite NOT an XL. Looking at the > last photo you will > also see that > this exhaust system will require a substantial > blister (bulge) to fair > in the pipes. I'd > suspect that an installation on an XL would also > require some fairing > work... > > Fly Safe, > Wayne Lanza > Composite Design, Inc. > > I'll be at Oshkosh with Velocity this year, please > stop by & visit. > > visit our web page: > http://www.CompositeDesignInc.com > ________________________________________________________________ > > On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 01:03 AM, > KeithHallsten wrote: > > > Richard, > > > > No, the Berkut exhaust shown on the Custom > Aircraft website exits the > > cowl > > right next to the ring gear, aimed right at the > root of the prop > > blades. > > The system I'm talking about exits directly below > the #3 & #4 > > cylinders. > > The photos on their website > > > http://www.customaircraft.com/images/VELOCITYP.JPG > shows this clearly. > > > > Keith Hallsten > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 12:50:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 04:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030708203501.02c2a870@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20030709115052.5350.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. This sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have some pictures? Jim --- richard@riley.net wrote: > Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve > 540 Berkut, it > sounds like they are very similar. > > I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic > ignition or you'll > cook the prop. > > At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: > >Pat, > >I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at > Custom Aircraft Parts > >about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a > parallel-valve IO-540. > >Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the > 2.5" tailpipes bent > >45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still > happy with yours? > >Keith Hallsten > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 13:36:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:36:07 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: Enlighten a soul wandering in the desert of ignorance. Why will electronic ignition prevent BBQ the prop vs. mags? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of richard@riley.net Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:37 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve 540 Berkut, it sounds like they are very similar. I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic ignition or you'll cook the prop. At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: >Pat, >I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts >about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. >Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes bent >45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still happy with yours? >Keith Hallsten _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 13:20:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:20:17 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would like to know the answer to. I have used both electronic and mags and both do put a bit of soot on the prop, but neither cooks the prop. The soot can be wiped off with a rag. We have found that the amount of soot on the prop is directly proportional to the distance the prop is from the exhaust pipes and the clocking of the blades. Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:36 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Enlighten a soul wandering in the desert of ignorance. Why will electronic ignition prevent BBQ the prop vs. mags? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of richard@riley.net Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:37 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve 540 Berkut, it sounds like they are very similar. I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic ignition or you'll cook the prop. At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: >Pat, >I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts >about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. >Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes bent >45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still happy with yours? >Keith Hallsten _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 13:59:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 06:59:44 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F0C11C0.8040903@tnstaafl.net> In my case with one electronic ignition, 4 into 1 exhaust on an IO360. The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce your EGT's in combination of not having any burning exhaust plume that you get with ROP operations(still burning on the way out). Thus keeping the prop cleaner and cooler. I think I'm going to install a 4 into 4 rearward facing system and take back the 4 to 5 knots I lost when I changed my 4 into 1 systems exit direction from rearward to down. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > Enlighten a soul wandering in the desert of ignorance. Why will electronic > ignition prevent BBQ the prop vs. mags? > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of richard@riley.net > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:37 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve 540 Berkut, it > sounds like they are very similar. > > I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic ignition or you'll > cook the prop. > > At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: > >>Pat, >>I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts >>about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. >>Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes > > bent > >>45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still happy with yours? >>Keith Hallsten > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 15:10:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:10:59 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F0C11C0.8040903@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: I also run LOP with an IO-360, but only to a maximum of 50 degrees LOP. The soot is still there, but just not as dark. The EI does nothing for the max EGT reading though. I can get the same EGT with the mag as I can get with the EI. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:00 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In my case with one electronic ignition, 4 into 1 exhaust on an IO360. The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce your EGT's in combination of not having any burning exhaust plume that you get with ROP operations(still burning on the way out). Thus keeping the prop cleaner and cooler. I think I'm going to install a 4 into 4 rearward facing system and take back the 4 to 5 knots I lost when I changed my 4 into 1 systems exit direction from rearward to down. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > Enlighten a soul wandering in the desert of ignorance. Why will electronic > ignition prevent BBQ the prop vs. mags? > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of richard@riley.net > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:37 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve 540 Berkut, it > sounds like they are very similar. > > I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic ignition or you'll > cook the prop. > > At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: > >>Pat, >>I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at Custom Aircraft Parts >>about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a parallel-valve IO-540. >>Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the 2.5" tailpipes > > bent > >>45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still happy with yours? >>Keith Hallsten > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 14:31:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:31:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <20030707203327.91351.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F0C1934.BCE064C6@dixie-net.com> Do slip joints allow a slight movement? One of my 3 into 1 exhaust (Franklin engine) moves just a bit, the other feels rigid. John Jim Agnew wrote: > Scott, > > Without slip joints you will almost always get cracking > because each cylinder is expanding at a different rate due > to uneven heating. As far as no stains on the prop, I have > two to one on my IO-360 rear facing except that the rear > end of the pipe has a 90 degree elbow which has been milled > off flush with the bottom of the pipe leaving a large oval > hole with a tip down end. This mixes the exhaust with the > air passing around the fairing and turns it down slightly. > At most after several hours I get a slight haze on the prop > that just wipes off. I can send you a picture directly if > you like. > > Jim From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 16:33:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:33:01 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants Message-ID: <72.2fb02e9d.2c3d8fad@aol.com> --part1_72.2fb02e9d.2c3d8fad_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_72.2fb02e9d.2c3d8fad_alt_boundary" --part1_72.2fb02e9d.2c3d8fad_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=A0 =A0 I'd like to replace them with a quadrant that has a horizontal base= =20 > and the throw starts at about=A09:00 and moves up to 11:30, much=20 > like the kind on simulators.=A0 Any one have any suggested source=20 > or suggestions?=A0=20 Like Mr. Martino I bought the 3 lever quadrant from ASS (Aircraft Spruce and= =20 Specialty) At the time it was like $35. So it was really inexpensive. Once I= =20 got though I did not like the way they pivoted in the center. It caused a=20 direction reversal and it caused the knobs to come way aft of the quadrant h= ousing=20 which would have had the knobs in the door way. To top it all off it did not= =20 have enough throw for the IO-540 controls.=20 So we took the thing apart (VERY easy to do) and made new larger end plates=20 and pivoted the arms from the end. It worked out VERY well. It was very=20 ergonomic. It was easy to have your arm on the armrest and your hand on the=20= engine=20 controls. Lycoming hot starts were a breeze (pinkie on throttle- thumb on=20 mixture, then when it fires twist your wrist!) and the knobs stayed clear of= the=20 door way when fully aft. Notice how the inboard plate has the curved cutout=20= to=20 accommodate my knee during ingress/egress. (see attached pic) Talk about a=20 custom fit! :-) Still I would recommend buying the ASS unit and just think of it as a=20 quadrant kit then make your own end plates. The flat plates are easy, the "k= it" would=20 have the colored knobs, levers, spacers, hardware etc. Nothing you could not= =20 scrounge up on your own but I thought it was worth $35 to get it all the=20 little pieces in one shot.=20 > =A0 Is it less hassle just to go to all push/pull controls?=20 Well sure, but then again so is buying a Cessna instead of a Velocity! :-) DM Rob --part1_72.2fb02e9d.2c3d8fad_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=A0 =A0 I'd like to replace them with a quadrant t= hat has a horizontal base
>    and the throw starts at about=A09:00 and moves up to=20= 11:30, much
>    like the kind on simulators.=A0 Any one have any sugg= ested source
>    or suggestions?=A0

Like Mr. Martino I bought the 3 lever quadrant from ASS (Aircraft Spruce and= Specialty) At the time it was like $35. So it was really inexpensive. Once=20= I got though I did not like the way they pivoted in the center. It caused a=20= direction reversal and it caused the knobs to come way aft of the quadrant h= ousing which would have had the knobs in the door way. To top it all off it=20= did not have enough throw for the IO-540 controls.

So we took the thing apart (VERY easy to do) and made new larger end plates=20= and pivoted the arms from the end. It worked out VERY well. It was very ergo= nomic. It was easy to have your arm on the armrest and your hand on the engi= ne controls. Lycoming hot starts were a breeze (pinkie on throttle- thumb on= mixture, then when it fires twist your wrist!) and the knobs stayed clear o= f the door way when fully aft. Notice how the inboard plate has the curved c= utout to accommodate my knee during ingress/egress. (see attached pic) Talk=20= about a custom fit! :-)

Still I would recommend buying the ASS unit and just think of it as a quadra= nt kit then make your own end plates. The flat plates are easy, the "kit" wo= uld have the colored knobs, levers, spacers, hardware etc. Nothing you could= not scrounge up on your own but I thought it was worth $35 to get it all th= e little pieces in one shot.

> =A0 Is it less hassle just to go to all push/pull controls?

Well sure, but then again so is buying a Cessna instead of a Velocity! :-)
DM Rob

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XzwhPcd132XEkOodwnvRzHYhlbjjKoZLFcZwUOzXPdEIxaVy0cwQJXXxx7/ypEhyKsH+VAAD HKnspuez9PlIkruTn9kQPF37ZQTx+VZg9Q9ynKfouSXD0j8/4XVbcgfCsGiie9om0BnHPKre 0SANYA67/KO3c3HlW2gAUFH+20uIctXEgYw5ykJ5xZz+yvM52cpX/wDJ+FnbapQutxJOPK5w 3Zrtwqn9RVrNcqpd8LkAkaPjyqEG8cUru7qYgP6j8K5DmWoagBDADl1cBGAttkHCqMEIjAC5 1+FTDi9qjDSL90Oqsk/hXfySqVcZJ7G0pycTTTkZXIkeWn5XJ6D/2Q== --part1_72.2fb02e9d.2c3d8fad_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 16:38:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:38:35 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <20030709115052.5350.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030708203501.02c2a870@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030709083144.035e8cb0@mail.adelphia.net> I don't have any pictures but I can assure you it's NOT urban legend. The place we saw it bad was with a 540 engine and exhaust that's routed inboard, closer to the flywheel. It happened on 2 blade props, I believe it would be just as likely on 3 blades. Charles Bracken's Lightspeed 2 blade prop had seriously cracked, blistered and peeling paint and first layer of composite cloth. Having electronic ignition greatly reduced the incidence of charring, leaving a stain but no real damage. A longer prop extension also seems to help. Misha Kasyan, flying a Catto 3 blade and 2 electronic ignitions, also has the very tips of his pipes turned to blow outboard into the slipstream and shows no damage to his prop at all, but that does cost some speed, probably 2 knots or so. At 04:50 AM 7/9/03 -0700, you wrote: >All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not seen >any pictures of a charred or burning prop. This sounds a >lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have some pictures? > >Jim >--- richard@riley.net wrote: > > Take a look at the ones he does for the parallel valve > > 540 Berkut, it > > sounds like they are very similar. > > > > I'm very happy with mine, but you MUST use an electronic > > ignition or you'll > > cook the prop. > > > > At 08:10 PM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: > > >Pat, > > >I'm in serious discussion with Clinton Anderson at > > Custom Aircraft Parts > > >about a couple of "Y" manifolds for my XL with a > > parallel-valve IO-540. > > >Very similar to yours, except I'm thinking of having the > > 2.5" tailpipes bent > > >45 degrees towards the prop. I assume that you're still > > happy with yours? > > >Keith Hallsten > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >===== >James F. Agnew >Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com >Tampa, FL >Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 16:32:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:32:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> At 2300 rpm/22" map, my EGT is 30 degrees higher on EI compared to the mag. I'm thinking that the EI timing needs to be advanced. However the current EI "settings" are already 4-5 degrees advanced beyond the 28 degrees specified for the Franklin engine. If I adjust the EI "settings" to 28 degrees, it's much rougher and backfires on EI during run-up. Any thoughts about using EGT/CHT to fine tune the timing? John Mike Pollock wrote: > I also run LOP with an IO-360, but only to a maximum of 50 degrees LOP. The > soot is still there, but just not as dark. The EI does nothing for the max > EGT reading though. I can get the same EGT with the mag as I can get with > the EI. > > Mike From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 17:10:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:10:12 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: <9.150c4a7a.2c3d9864@aol.com> --part1_9.150c4a7a.2c3d9864_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce your EGT's Scott, I have nothing against EI here but they have nothing to do with LOP operations. The ability to run LOP is strictly a function of balanced injectors. For example an EI but carbureted engine can't run LOP. I ran LOP on the IO-540 in my XL with two mags and I still run LOP on TSIO-520 in the 210 with 2 mags. The 210 has GAMI's but the Lyc 540 in the XL did not. I was able to do it straight stock with Lycoming. DM Rob --part1_9.150c4a7a.2c3d9864_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatica= lly reduce your EGT's

Scott, I have nothing against EI here but they have nothing to do with LOP o= perations. The ability to run LOP is strictly a function of balanced injecto= rs. For example an EI but carbureted engine can't run LOP.=20

I ran LOP on the IO-540 in my XL with two mags and I still run LOP on TSIO-5= 20 in the 210 with 2 mags. The 210 has GAMI's but the Lyc 540 in the XL did=20= not. I was able to do it straight stock with Lycoming.

DM Rob
--part1_9.150c4a7a.2c3d9864_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 17:14:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:14:12 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: <1d5.d7e5e32.2c3d9954@aol.com> --part1_1d5.d7e5e32.2c3d9954_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I also run LOP with an IO-360, but only to a maximum of 50 degrees LOP. >=A0 The soot is still there, but just not as dark. Ditto but I do my take off and climb out full rich for cooling then I lean=20 for cruise ops. I think the remaining soot is from that phase of flight.=20 DM Rob --part1_1d5.d7e5e32.2c3d9954_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I also run LOP with an IO-360, but only to a maxi= mum of 50 degrees LOP.
>=A0 The soot is still there, but just not as dark.

Ditto but I do my take off and climb out full rich for cooling then I lean f= or cruise ops. I think the remaining soot is from that phase of flight.

DM Rob --part1_1d5.d7e5e32.2c3d9954_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 17:25:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:25:48 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <1d5.d7e5e32.2c3d9954@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C3460C.D8954940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think the remaining soot is from that phase (TO full rich) of flight. I can agree with that assessment... Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of RJohn15183@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 11:14 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > I also run LOP with an IO-360, but only to a maximum of 50 degrees LOP. > The soot is still there, but just not as dark. Ditto but I do my take off and climb out full rich for cooling then I lean for cruise ops. I think the remaining soot is from that phase of flight. DM Rob ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C3460C.D8954940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>I think the remaining soot is from = that=20 phase (TO full rich) of = flight.=20

I can agree with that = assessment...

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 RJohn15183@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 11:14=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: = Exhaust=20 systems

> I also run LOP with an IO-360, but = only to a=20 maximum of 50 degrees LOP.
> The soot is still there, but = just not=20 as dark.

Ditto but I do my take off and climb out full rich for = cooling=20 then I lean for cruise ops. I think the remaining soot is from that = phase of=20 flight.

DM Rob

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C3460C.D8954940-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 17:33:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:33:05 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot Message-ID: I have an STEC 30 autopilot installed in my XLRG. I have been working on other things and flying the airplane without the autopilot connected. I now have it connected and the autopilot has a steady roll oscillation . I have been told that the gain needs to be adjusted by changing the value of the resistor. Has anyone done this? Do I really need to have it done by a S-TEC dealer? Jack N55XL From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 17:33:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:33:45 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> Are you LOP or ROP? Scott John Dibble wrote: > At 2300 rpm/22" map, my EGT is 30 degrees higher on EI compared to the mag. I'm > thinking that the EI timing needs to be advanced. However the current EI "settings" > are already 4-5 degrees advanced beyond the 28 degrees specified for the Franklin > engine. If I adjust the EI "settings" to 28 degrees, it's much rougher and backfires > on EI during run-up. Any thoughts about using EGT/CHT to fine tune the timing? > > John > > Mike Pollock wrote: > > >>I also run LOP with an IO-360, but only to a maximum of 50 degrees LOP. The >>soot is still there, but just not as dark. The EI does nothing for the max >>EGT reading though. I can get the same EGT with the mag as I can get with >>the EI. >> >>Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 17:44:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:44:36 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <9.150c4a7a.2c3d9864@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F0C4674.6080802@tnstaafl.net> I guess we will have to agree to disagree. LOP operations are dependent on the most equal burning of fuel across all cylinders. This is accomplished by 1.) good to great fuel air mixture distribution, 2.) a good spark at the right time. If you have great distribution you can run LOP with mags. If you have good distribution an EI will improve your burn by virtue of a hotter spark at the right time, thus allowing you to run an engine LOP be it carburated or injected that you couldn't before. My engine is a perfect example. WIth the two mags my engine would start to stumble at about 25 LOP. 50 LOP was impossible. After installing the EI, I can now run at 75 LOP smooth as can be. This is a true story and has been duplicated by many. No changes to the injection system have been made. Scott RJohn15183@aol.com wrote: > > The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce your EGT's > > Scott, I have nothing against EI here but they have nothing to do with > LOP operations. The ability to run LOP is strictly a function of > balanced injectors. For example an EI but carbureted engine can't run LOP. > > I ran LOP on the IO-540 in my XL with two mags and I still run LOP on > TSIO-520 in the 210 with 2 mags. The 210 has GAMI's but the Lyc 540 in > the XL did not. I was able to do it straight stock with Lycoming. > > DM Rob From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 18:51:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:51:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> Don't know. That's a good point. I'll check the next time I fly. Is your question for both mag and EI, or each separately? Compared to both, the EGT is higher with either the mag or the EI (highest with EI) and the CHT is about 20 degrees lower with either one. John Scott Derrick wrote: > Are you LOP or ROP? > > Scott > > John Dibble wrote: > > At 2300 rpm/22" map, my EGT is 30 degrees higher on EI compared to the mag. I'm > > thinking that the EI timing needs to be advanced. However the current EI "settings" > > are already 4-5 degrees advanced beyond the 28 degrees specified for the Franklin > > engine. If I adjust the EI "settings" to 28 degrees, it's much rougher and backfires > > on EI during run-up. Any thoughts about using EGT/CHT to fine tune the timing? > > > > John > > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 19:07:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:07:30 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: The Great LOP/EI Debate! :-) Message-ID: <190.1d0af9d8.2c3db3e2@aol.com> --part1_190.1d0af9d8.2c3db3e2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I changed the thread heading so those of you who are bored by in depth geek=20 debate over engine theory just delete away! In the mean time Scott and I wil= l=20 have an interesting discussion! I hope others jump in too! :-) > I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Well, maybe, maybe not, lets not give up just yet.... You said "The EI allows you to run LOP" The nit picky PITA geek in me wants=20 accuracy so I pointed out that it can be done and is being done on regular=20 basis by thousands of pilots who DO NOT have an EI. If you have a set of the= =20 notoriously bad TCM injectors/log runner intakes then EI alone is not going=20= to let=20 you run LOP. So perhaps you overstated on that sentence? =20 >>LOP operations are dependent on the most equal burning of fuel across=20 all cylinders.=A0 This is accomplished by 1.) good to great fuel air=20 mixture distribution, 2.) a good spark at the right time.<< Mostly agreed, but neither of those points REQUIRE an EI to accomplish.=20 However, I clearly understated when I said "The ability to run LOP is strict= ly a=20 function of balanced injectors." See? The whole nit picky PITA geek thing w= orks=20 both ways! :-) >>If you have good distribution an EI will improve your burn by virtue of=20 a hotter spark at the right time,<< Certainly no disagreement there!=20 >>thus allowing you to run an engine LOP be it carburated or injected that=20 you couldn't before.<< Ah, now here we might have to disagree or maybe not.=20 1) If you have a very unbalanced set of injectors then EI alone will not=20 allow LOP.=20 2) If you know of a flat or "pancake" style engine running LOP with a=20 carburetor we need documentation! This would be a major breakthrough in engi= ne theory=20 as the existing body of engineering knowledge and theory to date states that= =20 it is not possible without something else to more evenly distribute the fuel= =20 and hold it in vapor.=20 For example, the old radials with a centrifugal supercharger DOWNSTREAM of=20 the carb could and did run LOP. Perhaps some other device downstream could=20 accomplish the same thing but so far no one has done it that we know of with= out=20 some other device at work in the system. Carburetors in and off themselves s= imply=20 do not provide the "good to great fuel air mixture distribution" required. A= t=20 least that is what current engine theory states. So if you know of an=20 exception please have that person come forward as a number of engineers woul= d love to=20 see this! (not to mention a whole bunch of 182 drivers! )=20 Another aspect of carbureted engines is that the fuel vapor condenses out on= =20 the walls on the intake manifold on the way to the cylinder. That condensati= on=20 will form little streams that will go hither and yon in the intake depending= =20 on airflow. "Round and round she goes-where she stops nobody knows!" You ju= st=20 never know which cylinder the condensate will end up in or when it will end=20 up there almost guaranteeing uneven fuel distribution.=20 Again radials where the exception to this rule because the trip from the end= =20 of the very large impeller wheel at the back of the engine to the intake val= ve=20 was very very short AND there is only one intake tube from the impeller to=20 the cylinder. So any condensate ended up in the cylinder it was intended for= .=20 Also if the condensate worked it's way back to the impeller the impeller wou= ld=20 re-vaporize it.=20 >>My engine is a perfect example.=A0 WIth the two mags my engine would start= =20 to stumble at about 25 LOP.=A0 50 LOP was impossible. After installing the=20 EI, I can now run at 75 LOP smooth as can be.=A0=A0 This is a true story and= =20 has been duplicated by many.=A0 << I don't doubt you for second but that is hardly conclusive proof that the EI= =20 and the EI alone made LOP possible on your engine. I can come up with severa= l=20 other explanations.=20 Again none of this is meant to denigrate EI. I love it and we as a community= =20 are way over due for it. Personally, I'm just too cheap buy it! :-) Dm Rob=20 RJohn15183@aol.com wrote: >=A0 > The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce your EGT'= s >=20 > Scott, I have nothing against EI here but they have nothing to do with=20 > LOP operations. The ability to run LOP is strictly a function of=20 > balanced injectors. For example an EI but carbureted engine can't run LOP. >=20 > I ran LOP on the IO-540 in my XL with two mags and I still run LOP on=20 > TSIO-520 in the 210 with 2 mags. The 210 has GAMI's but the Lyc 540 in=20 > the XL did not. I was able to do it straight stock with Lycoming. >=20 > DM Rob --part1_190.1d0af9d8.2c3db3e2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I changed the thread heading so those of you who are b= ored by in depth geek debate over engine theory just delete away! In the mea= n time Scott and I will have an interesting discussion! I hope others jump i= n too! :-)

> I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Well, maybe, maybe not, lets not give up just yet....

You said "The EI allows you to run LOP" The nit picky PITA geek in me= wants accuracy so I pointed out that it can be done and is being done on re= gular basis by thousands of pilots who DO NOT have an EI. If you have a set=20= of the notoriously bad TCM injectors/log runner intakes then EI alone is not= going to let you run LOP. So perhaps you overstated on that sentence? =

>>LOP operations are dependent on the most equal burning of fuel acros= s
all cylinders.=A0 This is accomplished by 1.) good to great fuel air
mixture distribution, 2.) a good spark at the right time.<<

Mostly agreed, but neither of those points REQUIRE an EI to accomplish. Howe= ver, I clearly understated when I said "The ability to run LOP is str= ictly a function of balanced injectors." See? The whole nit picky PITA= geek thing works both ways! :-)

>>If you have good distribution an EI will improve your burn by virtue= of
a hotter spark at the right time,<<

Certainly no disagreement there!

>>thus allowing you to run an engine LOP be it carburated or injected=20= that you couldn't before.<<

Ah, now here we might have to disagree or maybe not.

1) If you have a very unbalanced set of injectors then EI alone will not all= ow LOP.

2) If you know of a flat or "pancake" style engine running LOP with a carbur= etor we need documentation! This would be a major breakthrough in engine the= ory as the existing body of engineering knowledge and theory to date states=20= that it is not possible without something else to more evenly distribute the= fuel and hold it in vapor.

For example, the old radials with a centrifugal supercharger DOWNSTREAM of t= he carb could and did run LOP. Perhaps some other device downstream could ac= complish the same thing but so far no one has done it that we know of withou= t some other device at work in the system. Carburetors in and off themselves= simply do not provide the "good to great fuel air mixture distribution" req= uired. At least that is what current engine theory states. So if you know of= an exception please have that person come forward as a number of engineers=20= would love to see this! (not to mention a whole bunch of 182 drivers! )

Another aspect of carbureted engines is that the fuel vapor condenses out on= the walls on the intake manifold on the way to the cylinder. That condensat= ion will form little streams that will go hither and yon in the intake depen= ding on airflow. "Round and round she goes-where she stops nobody knows!"&nb= sp; You just never know which cylinder the condensate will end up in or when= it will end up there almost guaranteeing uneven fuel distribution.

Again radials where the exception to this rule because the trip from the end= of the very large impeller wheel at the back of the engine to the intake va= lve was very very short AND there is only one intake tube from the impeller=20= to the cylinder. So any condensate ended up in the cylinder it was intended=20= for. Also if the condensate worked it's way back to the impeller the impelle= r would re-vaporize it.

>>My engine is a perfect example.=A0 WIth the two mags my engine would= start
to stumble at about 25 LOP.=A0 50 LOP was impossible. After installing the <= BR> EI, I can now run at 75 LOP smooth as can be.=A0=A0 This is a true story and=
has been duplicated by many.=A0 <<

I don't doubt you for second but that is hardly conclusive proof that the EI= and the EI alone made LOP possible on your engine. I can come up with sever= al other explanations.

Again none of this is meant to denigrate EI. I love it and we as a community= are way over due for it. Personally, I'm just too cheap buy it! :-)

Dm Rob

RJohn15183@aol.com wrote:
>=A0 > The EI allows you to run LOP which will dramatically reduce you= r EGT's
>
> Scott, I have nothing against EI here but they have nothing to do with=20=
> LOP operations. The ability to run LOP is strictly a function of
> balanced injectors. For example an EI but carbureted engine can't run L= OP.
>
> I ran LOP on the IO-540 in my XL with two mags and I still run LOP on <= BR> > TSIO-520 in the 210 with 2 mags. The 210 has GAMI's but the Lyc 540 in=20=
> the XL did not. I was able to do it straight stock with Lycoming.
>
> DM Rob

--part1_190.1d0af9d8.2c3db3e2_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 20:45:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <20030709115052.5350.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030709194556.43266.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Agnew wrote: > All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not > seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. This > sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have > some pictures? > > Jim No pics but... Rodney Brim and the late Steve Drybread made a serious attempt at a rear exiting exhaust for Rodney's XL (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT and I think one EI). They tried many different configurations (pipes exiting out the existing cowl openings, pipes exiting back thru lower & outboard openings, pipe tips turned out...) but were unable to prevent the exhaust from damaging the blades. Steve did have success getting a similar engine/exhaust combination to work on the Berkut, but since they run a 2 blade fixed pitch prop there are multiple clocking positions. There are only two positions for clocking the MT on this motor. Also, Scott Swing briefly tried a Berkut style rear exiting exhaust on the XL prototype (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT) and blistered the prop. Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 21:01:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:01:43 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34654.EB6AB813 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U28gaXMgdGhlIGNvbmNsdXNpb24gdHJ1bHkgdGhhdCB3ZSBjYW5ub3QgaGF2ZSBhIGR1YWwgcmVh ciBleGl0aW5nIGV4aGF1c3Qgc3lzdGVtIHdpdGggYW4gTVQgcHJvcCBiZWNhdXNlIGl0IHdpbGwg ZGFtYWdlIHRoZSBibGFkZXM/ICBUaGF0IGlzIGEgbWFqb3IgZGlzYXBwb2ludG1lbnQuDQoNCgkt LS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBQYXQgU2hlYSBbbWFpbHRvOnhsMzQw aHBAeWFob28uY29tXSANCglTZW50OiBXZWQgNy85LzIwMDMgMTo0NSBQTSANCglUbzogcmVmbGVj dG9yQHR2YmYub3JnIA0KCUNjOiANCglTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUkVGTEVDVE9SOiBFeGhhdXN0IHN5 c3RlbXMNCgkNCgkNCg0KCS0tLSBKaW0gQWduZXcgPGppbV9hZ25ld18yQHlhaG9vLmNvbT4gd3Jv 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AAASAAAAVABNAEEAUgBUAEkATgBPAAAAAAAfADFAAQAAABIAAABUAE0AQQBSAFQASQBOAE8AAAAA AB8AMkABAAAAJAAAAHgAbAAzADQAMABoAHAAQAB5AGEAaABvAG8ALgBjAG8AbQAAAB8AM0ABAAAA JAAAAHgAbAAzADQAMABoAHAAQAB5AGEAaABvAG8ALgBjAG8AbQAAAB8AOEABAAAAEgAAAFQATQBB AFIAVABJAE4ATwAAAAAAHwA5QAEAAAAEAAAALgAAAAsAKQAAAAAACwAjAAAAAAADAAYQmMIvkwMA BxDcBAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAFNPSVNUSEVDT05DTFVTSU9OVFJVTFlU SEFUV0VDQU5OT1RIQVZFQURVQUxSRUFSRVhJVElOR0VYSEFVU1RTWVNURU1XSVRIQU5NVFBST1BC RUNBVVNFSVRXSUxMREFNQUdFVEgAAAAAAgF/AAEAAAA/AAAAPEM5OTA4MUY1NDUzN0FGNDFBQTMy NUZBRjlDNTkxMUQ2MTMxOEVCQGsyLnRyb3VibGVzaG9vdGVyLmNvbT4AAIzj ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34654.EB6AB813-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 21:28:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems In-Reply-To: <3F0C1934.BCE064C6@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <20030709202849.70405.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> That is one purpose and to allow for slight misalignment. Jim --- John Dibble wrote: > Do slip joints allow a slight movement? One of my 3 into > 1 exhaust (Franklin engine) > moves just a bit, the other feels rigid. > > John > > Jim Agnew wrote: > > > Scott, > > > > Without slip joints you will almost always get cracking > > because each cylinder is expanding at a different rate > due > > to uneven heating. As far as no stains on the prop, I > have > > two to one on my IO-360 rear facing except that the > rear > > end of the pipe has a 90 degree elbow which has been > milled > > off flush with the bottom of the pipe leaving a large > oval > > hole with a tip down end. This mixes the exhaust with > the > > air passing around the fairing and turns it down > slightly. > > At most after several hours I get a slight haze on the > prop > > that just wipes off. I can send you a picture directly > if > > you like. > > > > Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 22:34:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ueli Christen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:34:02 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c34661$d3f44940$7c52fed4@ChristenAir> Hi Jack See the Picture on my Home-Page www.christen-air.ch klick on Monate 13+14, then Wochen 55-56, then Woche 56 and then Fotos-56. It works perfect. Best regards Ueli -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----- Von: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Jack Sheehan Gesendet: Mittwoch, 9. Juli 2003 17:33 An: reflector@tvbf.org Betreff: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot I have an STEC 30 autopilot installed in my XLRG. I have been working on other things and flying the airplane without the autopilot connected. I now have it connected and the autopilot has a steady roll oscillation . I have been told that the gain needs to be adjusted by changing the value of the resistor. Has anyone done this? Do I really need to have it done by a S-TEC dealer? Jack N55XL _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 22:46:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 17:46:48 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot Message-ID: <179.1d06ff2c.2c3de748@aol.com> --part1_179.1d06ff2c.2c3de748_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, When I was building at Velocity Wayne Lanza told me of an electronic fix (Inserting a resistor in a curcuit as I recall). When I was ready to fly I asked him to do it for me and he denied ever having said anything about it. So I rigged a coupling with about 1/4 inch slide on the aileron bell crank where the roll servo attaches. Works well. If you do fine an electronic fix, I would like to learn of it. Also would like one for pitch. Bob Wood --part1_179.1d06ff2c.2c3de748_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jack,

When I was building at Velocity Wayne Lanza told me of an electronic fix (In= serting a resistor in a curcuit as I recall). When I was ready to fly I aske= d him to do it for me and he denied ever having said anything about it. So I= rigged a coupling with about 1/4 inch slide on the aileron bell crank where= the roll servo attaches. Works well.

If you do fine an electronic fix, I would like to learn of it. Also would li= ke one for pitch.

Bob Wood --part1_179.1d06ff2c.2c3de748_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 23:02:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:02:06 EDT Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot Message-ID: <1c1.c53055d.2c3deade@aol.com> --part1_1c1.c53055d.2c3deade_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/9/03 5:37:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ueli@christen-air.ch writes: > www.christen-air.ch Jack, The arrangement Ueli fashioned functions like mine, though the design is a bit more elegant. It simply introduces a bit of slack into the control and then allows the STEC servo to cycle slowly within the slack range. Bob --part1_1c1.c53055d.2c3deade_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/9/03 5:37:59 PM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, ueli@christen-air.ch writes:

www.christen-air.ch

Jack, The arrangement Ueli fashioned functions like mine, though the design=20= is a bit more elegant. It simply introduces a bit of slack into the control=20= and then allows the STEC servo to cycle slowly within the slack range.

Bob --part1_1c1.c53055d.2c3deade_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 23:16:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:16:15 -0400 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: <000001c34661$d3f44940$7c52fed4@ChristenAir> References: <000001c34661$d3f44940$7c52fed4@ChristenAir> Message-ID: Hi Uli! where are you ? Switzerland? I remember your spring solution but S-Tec says I need to change a resistor to increase the gain. When I turn on the system the stick just wags side to side.Did yours do the same/ My pitch seems to be Ok. I have the servo on the inside connected to the torque tube bell crank in the center of the aircraft. Jack From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 9 23:18:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:18:07 -0400 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: <1c1.c53055d.2c3deade@aol.com> References: <1c1.c53055d.2c3deade@aol.com> Message-ID: --============_-1154333405==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" thanks Bob I will let you know --============_-1154333405==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot
thanks Bob

I will let you know
--============_-1154333405==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 00:39:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:39:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Andy, Got the vents today- the "broken" has only a bent stem on the disk plate, should be able to fix it, I did get 2 types, one has a (dried out and crusty) rubber rim around the disk (5 of those) and the other has a close tolerance disk that doesn't need the rubber (only one of those unfortunately) I don't think that I will be able to replace the rubber easily- thought it might be an o-ring at first, but it is not..... have you been able to disassemble yours for cleaning/adjustment?- I have been playing with them for a while, but can only remove the 2 snap rings in the rear. If I can get them apart, I can probably make them work like new- good deal- 6 vents for a hundred bucks....... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 8:37 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Alex, Sorry that I won't see you at OSH this year. I enjoyed talking with you at that Velocity dinner two years ago. A lot of building has happened since then. The article on the strakes and doors would be great. I would also like to hear more about your engine installation. I'm sure the whole group would appreciate it. Just make sure you still have time to build. Let us know about the 350 hp Subaru. Sounds interesting. Did you see that new 300 hp monster from Bombardier? Rotax 963. It has everything was have all been asking for in an aircraft engine. The only problem will be the price. I noticed they didn't print one. That can't be good. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:17 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Actually 2 years ago Dave Bertram and I flew up to Osh on his Baron, at that time we said that in 2 years we would fly formation back there in our Velocities- Dave has the quick build stuff, and will be running a 350 Chevy, and, I was a lot further along at the time, and running the SVX...... now, 2 years later, we are both a lot closer, but neither of us is that close- maybe if I get cranking, I will make OSH next year!!! I decided to install low compression pistons now instead of after I'm flying, so that will set me back about a month right there, I'll let you know how the eyeballs work out, I am hoping that I will be able to repair the broken one........ I was thinking that I might make Reno this year - it is in September, and there is going to be a white lightning up there running a 350 hp Subaru SVX motor, so I thought that I would go up and talk to them about it....... Alex PS, taking advice from the group, I think I will try to write a short ( no fluff) article for the VV about how circumnavigated my extra large strake extensions with a flex cable and some bell cranks- the doors are finally installed, so now I know that the system works properly, and I have totally flush handles too! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Got the last 6. Man, he said he had 59 of them when I called. Guess they didn't last long. I hope they work well for you. Alex, are you going to be at OSH this year? Maybe see you at the Velocity dinner... Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they are in as good condition as the ones that you received... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 01:12:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 20:12:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <002301c34677$f29f8920$54a2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed prop. No way to clock it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder IO 360's. No pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a Velocity and a Cozy, both with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred spots on one blade of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, then extinguished. Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he pronounced it dead and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it misses, but as someone mentioned, there are only two positions that a three blade can be installed, both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No soot on the prop but some on the cowl. Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG 55 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:01 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | So is the conclusion truly that we cannot have a dual rear exiting exhaust system with an MT prop because it will damage the blades? That is a major disappointment. | | -----Original Message----- | From: Pat Shea [mailto:xl340hp@yahoo.com] | Sent: Wed 7/9/2003 1:45 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Cc: | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | | | | --- Jim Agnew wrote: | > All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not | > seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. | This | > sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have | > some pictures? | > | > Jim | | No pics but... | | Rodney Brim and the late Steve Drybread made a | serious attempt at a rear exiting exhaust for Rodney's | XL (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT and I think one EI). They | tried many different configurations (pipes exiting out | the existing cowl openings, pipes exiting back thru | lower & outboard openings, pipe tips turned out...) | but were unable to prevent the exhaust from damaging | the blades. Steve did have success getting a similar | engine/exhaust combination to work on the Berkut, but | since they run a 2 blade fixed pitch prop there are | multiple clocking positions. There are only two | positions for clocking the MT on this motor. | Also, Scott Swing briefly tried a Berkut style rear | exiting exhaust on the XL prototype (IO-540 w/ 3 blade | MT) and blistered the prop. | | Pat | | | | | | | __________________________________ | Do you Yahoo!? | SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! | http://sbc.yahoo.com | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | | From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 03:30:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:30:30 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alex, I haven't been able to get mine apart. I don't know enough about how they are put together and don't want to damage them. The rubber seals on mine are in fair shape and don't look like they need replacing. I would like to take them apart and clean them. I'm sure I could get them apart. I'm not sure I could put them back together. I thought they were a great deal as well. Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:40 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Hey Andy, Got the vents today- the "broken" has only a bent stem on the disk plate, should be able to fix it, I did get 2 types, one has a (dried out and crusty) rubber rim around the disk (5 of those) and the other has a close tolerance disk that doesn't need the rubber (only one of those unfortunately) I don't think that I will be able to replace the rubber easily- thought it might be an o-ring at first, but it is not..... have you been able to disassemble yours for cleaning/adjustment?- I have been playing with them for a while, but can only remove the 2 snap rings in the rear. If I can get them apart, I can probably make them work like new- good deal- 6 vents for a hundred bucks....... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 8:37 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Alex, Sorry that I won't see you at OSH this year. I enjoyed talking with you at that Velocity dinner two years ago. A lot of building has happened since then. The article on the strakes and doors would be great. I would also like to hear more about your engine installation. I'm sure the whole group would appreciate it. Just make sure you still have time to build. Let us know about the 350 hp Subaru. Sounds interesting. Did you see that new 300 hp monster from Bombardier? Rotax 963. It has everything was have all been asking for in an aircraft engine. The only problem will be the price. I noticed they didn't print one. That can't be good. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:17 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Actually 2 years ago Dave Bertram and I flew up to Osh on his Baron, at that time we said that in 2 years we would fly formation back there in our Velocities- Dave has the quick build stuff, and will be running a 350 Chevy, and, I was a lot further along at the time, and running the SVX...... now, 2 years later, we are both a lot closer, but neither of us is that close- maybe if I get cranking, I will make OSH next year!!! I decided to install low compression pistons now instead of after I'm flying, so that will set me back about a month right there, I'll let you know how the eyeballs work out, I am hoping that I will be able to repair the broken one........ I was thinking that I might make Reno this year - it is in September, and there is going to be a white lightning up there running a 350 hp Subaru SVX motor, so I thought that I would go up and talk to them about it....... Alex PS, taking advice from the group, I think I will try to write a short ( no fluff) article for the VV about how circumnavigated my extra large strake extensions with a flex cable and some bell cranks- the doors are finally installed, so now I know that the system works properly, and I have totally flush handles too! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Got the last 6. Man, he said he had 59 of them when I called. Guess they didn't last long. I hope they work well for you. Alex, are you going to be at OSH this year? Maybe see you at the Velocity dinner... Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they are in as good condition as the ones that you received... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 04:09:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:09:53 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andy, I finally figured it out - in the rear, there is a circular clip, using a pair of needle nose pliers I removed that, then underneath that there is the clip that has the slot that the rod rides in, it is removed the same way, with the needle nose, then there is a little spring washer under that that will come out, then push the barrel out the rear of the sphere, then you can turn the sphere about 90 degrees- from the rear, you will see that the socket has a small shape cut into it, so when the sphere is turned, it will line up, then push the sphere out the rear. I am still trying to figure out how to get the disk out of the barrel, there is a pin that it pivots on, but it might be fixed in there with a staking operation, I have them all soaking on wd-40 right now, and I will try to pull the pins tomorrow. As a second operation, I removed the felt rings and the spring strips that force them against the sphere, the felt was crushed for the most part, making the sphere turn too easily (not allowing the disk to turn) so I am going to soak them on some hot soapy water for a while to see if I can rejuvenate them. I'll let you know how that goes. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:31 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Alex, I haven't been able to get mine apart. I don't know enough about how they are put together and don't want to damage them. The rubber seals on mine are in fair shape and don't look like they need replacing. I would like to take them apart and clean them. I'm sure I could get them apart. I'm not sure I could put them back together. I thought they were a great deal as well. Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:40 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Hey Andy, Got the vents today- the "broken" has only a bent stem on the disk plate, should be able to fix it, I did get 2 types, one has a (dried out and crusty) rubber rim around the disk (5 of those) and the other has a close tolerance disk that doesn't need the rubber (only one of those unfortunately) I don't think that I will be able to replace the rubber easily- thought it might be an o-ring at first, but it is not..... have you been able to disassemble yours for cleaning/adjustment?- I have been playing with them for a while, but can only remove the 2 snap rings in the rear. If I can get them apart, I can probably make them work like new- good deal- 6 vents for a hundred bucks....... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 8:37 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Alex, Sorry that I won't see you at OSH this year. I enjoyed talking with you at that Velocity dinner two years ago. A lot of building has happened since then. The article on the strakes and doors would be great. I would also like to hear more about your engine installation. I'm sure the whole group would appreciate it. Just make sure you still have time to build. Let us know about the 350 hp Subaru. Sounds interesting. Did you see that new 300 hp monster from Bombardier? Rotax 963. It has everything was have all been asking for in an aircraft engine. The only problem will be the price. I noticed they didn't print one. That can't be good. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:17 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Actually 2 years ago Dave Bertram and I flew up to Osh on his Baron, at that time we said that in 2 years we would fly formation back there in our Velocities- Dave has the quick build stuff, and will be running a 350 Chevy, and, I was a lot further along at the time, and running the SVX...... now, 2 years later, we are both a lot closer, but neither of us is that close- maybe if I get cranking, I will make OSH next year!!! I decided to install low compression pistons now instead of after I'm flying, so that will set me back about a month right there, I'll let you know how the eyeballs work out, I am hoping that I will be able to repair the broken one........ I was thinking that I might make Reno this year - it is in September, and there is going to be a white lightning up there running a 350 hp Subaru SVX motor, so I thought that I would go up and talk to them about it....... Alex PS, taking advice from the group, I think I will try to write a short ( no fluff) article for the VV about how circumnavigated my extra large strake extensions with a flex cable and some bell cranks- the doors are finally installed, so now I know that the system works properly, and I have totally flush handles too! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Got the last 6. Man, he said he had 59 of them when I called. Guess they didn't last long. I hope they work well for you. Alex, are you going to be at OSH this year? Maybe see you at the Velocity dinner... Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Yes, thanks Andy, I got the last 6 of them, not arrived yet, they said one was inop, but they threw that one in, so I'm not complaining, hope that they are in as good condition as the ones that you received... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Eyeball vents Andy, Thanks for posting the information. I bought four vents and they are "as advertised." This gives me a total of six vents, two from factory for the panel, and four others to deliver either hot or cold air as needed to front and back. Dennis Martin N767DG FG >I received the eyeball vents on Thursday. Some wanted to know what they >were like so here is the report. > >They are used and do show wear, but are in great working shape and are >constructed out of sturdy stuff. > >A little dirt, but nothing a little soap and a brush won't clean right up. > >They will need to be stripped and either painted or polished. No problem >for me, I would rather spend the time than the money. > >The eyeball itself seems to be dyed? a pinkish shade. Not objectionable to >me, but not something I would have chosen. > >The bases are either black or zinc chromate. > >The opening is .871 diameter (digital caliper on e-bay $24 ) They have >the disk type valve that turns 90 degrees. When opened they look like they >will deliver a good volume of air. > >I will gladly use them in the overhead plenum. The bases are set at an >angle and I don't believe they would work well for fresh air in the panel. > >I'm writing this one from home, not work, and I don't have the contact >information for Ripeau. If you are interested, I hope you saved it. If >not, I can get it at work on Monday. Either way, they said they had 50 or >so in stock. > >Hope this helps. > >Best, > >Andy > >P.S. Yes, I'm still working on the plane. Life has gotten pretty busy >lately so not MUCH working on the plane. Sorry no new pictures for a while. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 04:39:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 21:39:35 -0600 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot Message-ID: <410-22003741033935520@earthlink.net> ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This has been covered in detail some time ago on the Reflector. If you will check the archives, you will find that the solution goes all the way back to Tim Crawford's early work on N6Q. To prevent the osculations, the gain in the servos must be reduced either mechanically or electronically. My roll servo works perfectly with not electronic modification at all. I simply discarded the arm that was sent to go on the servo and connected the link to the bell crank to the servo using one of the holes that was supposed hold the arm. It works with no feedback problems at all. I did add mechanical stops to prevent the servo from going "over center". I have it set up so that an 180 degree rotation of the servo takes the aileron from full up to full down. In all of the conditions that I have tried so far, the unit tracks true with no osculation and not noticeable slop. Don Royer ----- Original Message ----- From: To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: 7/9/03 4:02:07 PM Subject: Re: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In a message dated 7/9/03 5:37:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ueli@christen-air.ch writes: www.christen-air.ch Jack, The arrangement Ueli fashioned functions like mine, though the design is a bit more elegant. It simply introduces a bit of slack into the control and then allows the STEC servo to cycle slowly within the slack range. Bob ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This has been covered in detail some time ago on the Reflector. If you will check the archives, you will find that the solution goes all the way back to Tim Crawford's early work on N6Q. To prevent the osculations, the gain in the servos must be reduced either mechanically or electronically.

My roll servo works perfectly with not electronic modification at all. I simply discarded the arm that was sent to go on the servo and connected the link to the bell crank to the servo using one of the holes that was supposed hold the arm. It works with no feedback problems at all. I did add mechanical stops to prevent the servo from going "over center". I have it set up so that an 180 degree rotation of the servo takes the aileron from full up to full down. In all of the conditions that I have tried so far, the unit tracks true with no osculation and not noticeable slop.

Don Royer

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: 7/9/03 4:02:07 PM

Subject: Re: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot

In a message dated 7/9/03 5:37:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ueli@christen-air.ch writes:

www.christen-air.ch

Jack, The arrangement Ueli fashioned functions like mine, though the design is a bit more elegant. It simply introduces a bit of slack into the control and then allows the STEC servo to cycle slowly within the slack range.

Bob
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 04:25:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Lanza) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:25:40 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: <179.1d06ff2c.2c3de748@aol.com> Message-ID: <2E624009-B286-11D7-AD84-000393BC26D4@bellsouth.net> --Apple-Mail-8-43445488 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi Bob, What did I do now!? I don't remember denying anything... The deal with the STec 30 is that you've got to change a couple of resistors to adjust the gain (sensitivity) of the pitch and/or roll amplifiers in the main unit. The first unit that I did this to (as per STec) was on Lynn Elsner's airplane. The roll axis would be OK and go bonkers once in a while and then slowly stop oscillating. The same phenomenon has occurred with the pitch axis - usually not as bad. Lynn's airplane finally ended up with a small potentiometer hanging out of the 30's T/C gyro that is kept tucked away under the panel. This was the recommended fix after several resistor values were tried and abandoned. This really bugs me! We even tried replacing the pot with an equal fixed resistor after the issue seemed resolved - it worked for a while then acted up again. I've installed about a dozen Stec 30's and a couple of 55's, I'm not too impressed with the 30's. Three units had to be sent back for gyro failures and two of those hadn't even flown yet! What the heck are they doing? Once the STec's are in and 'tweaked' they seem to do fine, it's just unsettling to have to fool with them so that you don't have the stick slapping about! Again, as far as my denying the fix procedure - I'm defenseless (I can't remember any more...) Give me a yell after Oshkosh if you've got time to fly to the shop. I have the STec schematics and we can try to get it right. Regards to All, Wayne Lanza P.S. I'll be at Oshkosh with Velocity. please stop by & say hello- ________________________________________________________________________ _____________ On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 05:46 PM, SlvEgl99@aol.com wrote: > Jack, > > When I was building at Velocity Wayne Lanza told me of an electronic > fix (Inserting a resistor in a curcuit as I recall). When I was ready > to fly I asked him to do it for me and he denied ever having said > anything about it. So I rigged a coupling with about 1/4 inch slide on > the aileron bell crank where the roll servo attaches. Works well. > > If you do fine an electronic fix, I would like to learn of it. Also > would like one for pitch. > > Bob Wood > --Apple-Mail-8-43445488 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Hi Bob, What did I do now!? I don't remember denying anything... The deal with the STec 30 is that you've got to change a couple of resistors to adjust the gain (sensitivity) of the pitch and/or roll amplifiers in the main unit. The first unit that I did this to (as per STec) was on Lynn Elsner's airplane. The roll axis would be OK and go bonkers once in a while and then slowly stop oscillating. The same phenomenon has occurred with the pitch axis - usually not as bad. Lynn's airplane finally ended up with a small potentiometer hanging out of the 30's T/C gyro that is kept tucked away under the panel. This was the recommended fix after several resistor values were tried and abandoned. This really bugs me! We even tried replacing the pot with an equal fixed resistor after the issue seemed resolved - it worked for a while then acted up again. I've installed about a dozen Stec 30's and a couple of 55's, I'm not too impressed with the 30's. Three units had to be sent back for gyro failures and two of those hadn't even flown yet! What the heck are they doing? Once the STec's are in and 'tweaked' they seem to do fine, it's just unsettling to have to fool with them so that you don't have the stick slapping about! Again, as far as my denying the fix procedure - I'm defenseless (I can't remember any more...) Give me a yell after Oshkosh if you've got time to fly to the shop. I have the STec schematics and we can try to get it right. Regards to All, Wayne Lanza P.S. I'll be at Oshkosh with Velocity. please stop by & say hello- _____________________________________________________________________________________ On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 05:46 PM, SlvEgl99@aol.com wrote: ArialJack, When I was building at Velocity Wayne Lanza told me of an electronic fix (Inserting a resistor in a curcuit as I recall). When I was ready to fly I asked him to do it for me and he denied ever having said anything about it. So I rigged a coupling with about 1/4 inch slide on the aileron bell crank where the roll servo attaches. Works well. If you do fine an electronic fix, I would like to learn of it. Also would like one for pitch. Bob Wood --Apple-Mail-8-43445488-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 05:05:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:05:28 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <002301c34677$f29f8920$54a2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: The best way not to cook your prop is to get it further away from the exhaust. This can be done with a longer extension or changing where the exhaust is dumped out. We chose the longer 8" extension and we have never burned a prop. We do have a little soot, but no burns in 620 hours with an IO-360 with 3-blade Performance propeller. I guess some are lucky and some are not. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:12 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed prop. No way to clock it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder IO 360's. No pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a Velocity and a Cozy, both with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred spots on one blade of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, then extinguished. Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he pronounced it dead and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it misses, but as someone mentioned, there are only two positions that a three blade can be installed, both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No soot on the prop but some on the cowl. Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG 55 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:01 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | So is the conclusion truly that we cannot have a dual rear exiting exhaust system with an MT prop because it will damage the blades? That is a major disappointment. | | -----Original Message----- | From: Pat Shea [mailto:xl340hp@yahoo.com] | Sent: Wed 7/9/2003 1:45 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Cc: | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | | | | --- Jim Agnew wrote: | > All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not | > seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. | This | > sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have | > some pictures? | > | > Jim | | No pics but... | | Rodney Brim and the late Steve Drybread made a | serious attempt at a rear exiting exhaust for Rodney's | XL (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT and I think one EI). They | tried many different configurations (pipes exiting out | the existing cowl openings, pipes exiting back thru | lower & outboard openings, pipe tips turned out...) | but were unable to prevent the exhaust from damaging | the blades. Steve did have success getting a similar | engine/exhaust combination to work on the Berkut, but | since they run a 2 blade fixed pitch prop there are | multiple clocking positions. There are only two | positions for clocking the MT on this motor. | Also, Scott Swing briefly tried a Berkut style rear | exiting exhaust on the XL prototype (IO-540 w/ 3 blade | MT) and blistered the prop. | | Pat | | | | | | | __________________________________ | Do you Yahoo!? | SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! | http://sbc.yahoo.com | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | | _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 05:21:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:21:26 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: Ronnie wrote: ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) Ronnie... The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets further from the exhaust valve... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 06:58:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:58:26 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: <000001c34661$d3f44940$7c52fed4@ChristenAir> Message-ID: <000001c346a8$478bf330$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3466D.9B2D1B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jack See the Picture on my Home-Page www.christen-air.ch klick on Monate 13+14, then Wochen 55-56, then Woche 56 and then Fotos-56. It works perfect. Best regards Ueli Ueli; Actually it is under Monate 15-15. Now we need to know dimensions and spring rate of the springs. Did it take some trial and error to get it right? 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Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:04:04 +0200 Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c346b1$75f8c820$465afed4@ChristenAir> Hi Uli! where are you ? Switzerland? I remember your spring solution but S-Tec says I need to change a resistor to increase the gain. When I turn on the system the stick just wags side to side.Did yours do the same/ My pitch seems to be Ok. I have the servo on the inside connected to the torque tube bell crank in the center of the aircraft. Jack Hi Jack I am in Switzerland I have had the exact the same and it stop's after the spring solution. I have also the servo inside. Only with the pitch i have a problem in level over 8'000 feet. For this i will ask S-Tec. Ueli From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 08:19:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ueli Christen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:19:33 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: <000001c346a8$478bf330$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <000001c346b3$9f9fdbd0$465afed4@ChristenAir> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C346C4.6328ABD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al You'r right it is under 15-16. Sorry, i have not a idee about the dimensions. I pick't up the next usable spring and i have testet it. The spring is only, to give the servo time to move. Ueli ----- Hi Jack See the Picture on my Home-Page www.christen-air.ch klick on Monate 13+14, then Wochen 55-56, then Woche 56 and then Fotos-56. It works perfect. Best regards Ueli Ueli; Actually it is under Monate 15-15. Now we need to know dimensions and spring rate of the springs. Did it take some trial and error to get it right? 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Message-ID: <001201c346da$544f3dc0$6ac46cd8@net> Some are talking about longer prop extensions solving the problem but if one is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't help define what we really need to know....... is there any consensus on how far the prop needs to be from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. Mark Means ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > Ronnie wrote: > ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) > > > > > Ronnie... > > The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets > further from the exhaust valve... > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 13:24:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:24:20 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <001201c346da$544f3dc0$6ac46cd8@net> Message-ID: Ours is about 11 inches from the prop. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mark Means Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Some are talking about longer prop extensions solving the problem but if one is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't help define what we really need to know....... is there any consensus on how far the prop needs to be from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. Mark Means ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > Ronnie wrote: > ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) > > > > > Ronnie... > > The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets > further from the exhaust valve... > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 13:27:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <002301c34677$f29f8920$54a2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20030710122717.28803.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Acording to the standard rule for EGT probes the temperature drops about 100 degrees per inch away from the valve so to get a "1400 degree blast" your prop would have to be inside the exhaust pipe about an inch from the valve. Anyone got an IR heat detector that can read the end of the pipe temperature? Jim --- Ronnie Brown wrote: > Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed > prop. No way to clock > it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder > IO 360's. No > pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a > Velocity and a Cozy, both > with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred > spots on one blade > of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, > then extinguished. > Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he > pronounced it dead > and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it > misses, but as someone > mentioned, there are only two positions that a three > blade can be installed, > both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. > > I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No > soot on the prop > but some on the cowl. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG 55 hours > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:01 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > | So is the conclusion truly that we cannot have a dual > rear exiting exhaust > system with an MT prop because it will damage the blades? > That is a major > disappointment. > | > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Pat Shea [mailto:xl340hp@yahoo.com] > | Sent: Wed 7/9/2003 1:45 PM > | To: reflector@tvbf.org > | Cc: > | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > | > | > | > | --- Jim Agnew wrote: > | > All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not > | > seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. > | This > | > sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have > | > some pictures? > | > > | > Jim > | > | No pics but... > | > | Rodney Brim and the late Steve Drybread made a > | serious attempt at a rear exiting exhaust for Rodney's > | XL (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT and I think one EI). They > | tried many different configurations (pipes exiting out > | the existing cowl openings, pipes exiting back thru > | lower & outboard openings, pipe tips turned out...) > | but were unable to prevent the exhaust from damaging > | the blades. Steve did have success getting a similar > | engine/exhaust combination to work on the Berkut, but > | since they run a 2 blade fixed pitch prop there are > | multiple clocking positions. There are only two > | positions for clocking the MT on this motor. > | Also, Scott Swing briefly tried a Berkut style rear > | exiting exhaust on the XL prototype (IO-540 w/ 3 blade > | MT) and blistered the prop. > | > | Pat > | > | > | > | > | > | > | __________________________________ > | Do you Yahoo!? > | SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > | http://sbc.yahoo.com > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > | > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 13:45:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:45:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <20030710122717.28803.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Radio shack sells one now, can't remember how much it is, but as I recall it was fairly inexpensive...... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jim Agnew Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:27 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Acording to the standard rule for EGT probes the temperature drops about 100 degrees per inch away from the valve so to get a "1400 degree blast" your prop would have to be inside the exhaust pipe about an inch from the valve. Anyone got an IR heat detector that can read the end of the pipe temperature? Jim --- Ronnie Brown wrote: > Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed > prop. No way to clock > it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder > IO 360's. No > pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a > Velocity and a Cozy, both > with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred > spots on one blade > of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, > then extinguished. > Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he > pronounced it dead > and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it > misses, but as someone > mentioned, there are only two positions that a three > blade can be installed, > both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. > > I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No > soot on the prop > but some on the cowl. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG 55 hours > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:01 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > | So is the conclusion truly that we cannot have a dual > rear exiting exhaust > system with an MT prop because it will damage the blades? > That is a major > disappointment. > | > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Pat Shea [mailto:xl340hp@yahoo.com] > | Sent: Wed 7/9/2003 1:45 PM > | To: reflector@tvbf.org > | Cc: > | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > | > | > | > | --- Jim Agnew wrote: > | > All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not > | > seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. > | This > | > sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have > | > some pictures? > | > > | > Jim > | > | No pics but... > | > | Rodney Brim and the late Steve Drybread made a > | serious attempt at a rear exiting exhaust for Rodney's > | XL (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT and I think one EI). They > | tried many different configurations (pipes exiting out > | the existing cowl openings, pipes exiting back thru > | lower & outboard openings, pipe tips turned out...) > | but were unable to prevent the exhaust from damaging > | the blades. Steve did have success getting a similar > | engine/exhaust combination to work on the Berkut, but > | since they run a 2 blade fixed pitch prop there are > | multiple clocking positions. There are only two > | positions for clocking the MT on this motor. > | Also, Scott Swing briefly tried a Berkut style rear > | exiting exhaust on the XL prototype (IO-540 w/ 3 blade > | MT) and blistered the prop. > | > | Pat > | > | > | > | > | > | > | __________________________________ > | Do you Yahoo!? > | SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > | http://sbc.yahoo.com > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > | > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 13:52:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mark Means) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:52:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <001d01c346e2$0feab8a0$25c46cd8@net> Mike, So does this mean 11" is okay or do you have the burnt prop problem? Did you start closer to the prop and cut it back to where 11" is the minimum? I'm trying to design a custom exhaust and since this is a "hot" topic wanted to find out what the general experience is with "minimum acceptable" distance to avoid the problem. Thanks for anyone's input. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pollock" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:24 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > Ours is about 11 inches from the prop. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Mark Means > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:57 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Some are talking about longer prop extensions solving the problem but if one > is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't help define what we really > need to know....... is there any consensus on how far the prop needs to be > from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. > > Mark Means > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve korney" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > Ronnie wrote: > > ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie... > > > > The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets > > further from the exhaust valve... > > > > > > Best... Steve > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 14:28:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:28:47 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F0D6A0F.1080703@tnstaafl.net> Mike, How far from your exhaust exit and the prop. Also how wide(far apart) are the stacks? I would think keeping both theses distances at a maximum would minimize the heat problem. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > The best way not to cook your prop is to get it further away from the > exhaust. This can be done with a longer extension or changing where the > exhaust is dumped out. We chose the longer 8" extension and we have never > burned a prop. We do have a little soot, but no burns in 620 hours with an > IO-360 with 3-blade Performance propeller. > > I guess some are lucky and some are not. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:12 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed prop. No way to clock > it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder IO 360's. No > pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a Velocity and a Cozy, both > with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred spots on one blade > of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, then extinguished. > Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he pronounced it dead > and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it misses, but as someone > mentioned, there are only two positions that a three blade can be installed, > both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. > > I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No soot on the prop > but some on the cowl. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG 55 hours > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:01 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > | So is the conclusion truly that we cannot have a dual rear exiting exhaust > system with an MT prop because it will damage the blades? That is a major > disappointment. > | > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Pat Shea [mailto:xl340hp@yahoo.com] > | Sent: Wed 7/9/2003 1:45 PM > | To: reflector@tvbf.org > | Cc: > | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > | > | > | > | --- Jim Agnew wrote: > | > All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not > | > seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. > | This > | > sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have > | > some pictures? > | > > | > Jim > | > | No pics but... > | > | Rodney Brim and the late Steve Drybread made a > | serious attempt at a rear exiting exhaust for Rodney's > | XL (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT and I think one EI). They > | tried many different configurations (pipes exiting out > | the existing cowl openings, pipes exiting back thru > | lower & outboard openings, pipe tips turned out...) > | but were unable to prevent the exhaust from damaging > | the blades. Steve did have success getting a similar > | engine/exhaust combination to work on the Berkut, but > | since they run a 2 blade fixed pitch prop there are > | multiple clocking positions. There are only two > | positions for clocking the MT on this motor. > | Also, Scott Swing briefly tried a Berkut style rear > | exiting exhaust on the XL prototype (IO-540 w/ 3 blade > | MT) and blistered the prop. > | > | Pat > | > | > | > | > | > | > | __________________________________ > | Do you Yahoo!? > | SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > | http://sbc.yahoo.com > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > | > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 14:41:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:41:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <001d01c346e2$0feab8a0$25c46cd8@net> Message-ID: <3F0D6CFA.2020107@tnstaafl.net> Mark, From my limited experience, I burnt a 3 blade Performance prop on Velocity. Actual charring. The more cylinders you have going into a collector the hotter the exit stream. The closer the exit stream is the the prop the hotter your prop. My 4-into-1 was pointed straight back and about 6-8 inches from the prop. The more perpendicular the exhaust exit to the air stream the more mixing of exhaust to ambient you get, thus a cooler exhaust. This is a drag(sic!) because the more perpendicular your exhaust is to the air stream the more drag you get. If you have more than one exhaust exit(ie. 2-into-1 or 4-into-4 oe 3-into-1) the wider they are apart the cooler the prop. Running LOP greatly reduces your exhaust exit temps. Diffusers on the ends of the exhaust tubes can reduce the temps. We need to put them all together to get a consistent result. Scott Mark Means wrote: > Mike, > > So does this mean 11" is okay or do you have the burnt prop problem? > > Did you start closer to the prop and cut it back to where 11" is the > minimum? > > I'm trying to design a custom exhaust and since this is a "hot" topic wanted > to find out what the general experience is with "minimum acceptable" > distance to avoid the problem. Thanks for anyone's input. > > Mark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Pollock" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:24 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > >>Ours is about 11 inches from the prop. >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Mark Means >>Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:57 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>Some are talking about longer prop extensions solving the problem but if > > one > >>is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't help define what we > > really > >>need to know....... is there any consensus on how far the prop needs to > > be > >>from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. >> >>Mark Means >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "steve korney" >>To: >>Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >> >>>Ronnie wrote: >>> ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Ronnie... >>> >>>The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets >>>further from the exhaust valve... >>> >>> >>>Best... Steve >>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 14:43:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:43:09 +0800 Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> Hi John, This is very interesting...... Question: You are at the run up bay, set RPM to xxxrpm ready to do a mag check. You turn off one mag (or EI). The RPM drops by some value (50-100rpm??)What happens to your EGT ??? Does it; a) stay the same b) Decrease to reflect the small loss of power (rpm drop) c) Increase I thought the answer would be b) but guess what, the correct answer is c). I have asked many, some apparent 'experts' but have never had a satisfactory answer to why this is so. I can understand (I think) why the EGT increases when you switch the mag OFF and run on only the EI. We know that the egt will increase when you are on a single spark plug firing as outlined above. Now take into consideration that the EI has some 'smarts' and can both detect the power drop when you turn off the mag and can adjust the timing to try to recover some lost power. This adjusting of the timing probably accounts for the extra difference you see when running on the EI only as compared to the mag only. Just don't ask me to explain it..... case I don't know. Maybe its simply that the EI is more *efficient**. More EI ramblings (sorry)..... The EI's are advertised as 'More power from your engine' or 'Saves you fuel' and to a degree this is true ... you will produce more power with EI than mags for a certain fuel flow or, you can power back a bit to duplicate the performance you saw using Mags and of course you are now using less fuel (cause you powered back). Light Speed EI claim as much as 10% fuel saving if you switch out 2 mags for a dual EI. Some round the worlders back up this claim. All of this goes to prove that EI allow the engine to be more *efficient* (we knew that already). I have 1 EI and 1 mag on my Franklin Velocity, I can guarantee that most people are amazed at the different 'mag drops' I get during run ups .... turn the mag off....small rpm drop (about 30-50 rpm) ....turn the EI off Huge rpm drop 250-300 rpm !! used to be concerned that the mag was faulty, replaced it with the other new mag, timed it ..... no difference! On an early test flight climbed to 2000' after T/O in moderate turbulence (bouncing around) suddenly felt/heard power loss guessed about 20% ....... noticed all 6 egt's rising significantly, must be something serious..... pucker factor also on the rise, decided to get down asap ..... uneventful landing..... long story short, I had knocked the overhead switch panel with my headset in all the bumping around whilst leaning forward to check for other traffic and knocked the EI OFF !!!! something to be aware of EI or Mags (unless you have a key type ignition/starter). Thursday, July 10, 2003, 1:51:21 AM, you wrote: JD> Don't know. That's a good point. I'll check the next time I fly. Is JD> your question for both mag and EI, or each separately? Compared to JD> both, the EGT is higher with either the mag or the EI (highest with EI) JD> and the CHT is about 20 degrees lower with either one. JD> John JD> Scott Derrick wrote: >> Are you LOP or ROP? >> >> Scott >> >> John Dibble wrote: >> > At 2300 rpm/22" map, my EGT is 30 degrees higher on EI compared to the mag. I'm >> > thinking that the EI timing needs to be advanced. However the current EI "settings" >> > are already 4-5 degrees advanced beyond the 28 degrees specified for the Franklin >> > engine. If I adjust the EI "settings" to 28 degrees, it's much rougher and backfires >> > on EI during run-up. Any thoughts about using EGT/CHT to fine tune the timing? >> > >> > John >> > JD> _______________________________________________ JD> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector JD> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 14:58:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:58:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: Has anyone looked into an air augmentation system? I recall a Long Eze at OSH last year that had this and I think he exited his exhaust very close to the hub. He had lots of other stuff too. Auto Engine , very long prop fiber wrapped extension requiring a support frame. Also the T-34's has this as a HP increase mod. Could we use a big NACA to add mixing air around the exit of the exhaust? "Mark Means" et> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/10/03 07:56 AM Please respond to reflector Some are talking about longer prop extensions solving the problem but if one is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't help define what we really need to know....... is there any consensus on how far the prop needs to be from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. Mark Means ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > Ronnie wrote: > ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) > > > > > Ronnie... > > The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets > further from the exhaust valve... > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 15:26:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:26:48 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: This whole thing is giving me a headache! I have a custom cowling (provided by Alan Shaw) with left and right holes exiting straight out the back. It was part of his conversion package for the IO-540 on the 173RG. It looks so cool! Each side has three into one ... but it blows right through the prop (of course nothing has been fired up yet). I would hate to change all that! I was told that the way the exhaust stacks fit through the exit holes ... creates a "air mix" with a jacket of air around the exhaust. Who knows? Bottom line: I don't want to burn a prop! Does anyone have experience with this cowling? Will a four-blade prop make a difference? -----Original Message----- From: Mark Means [mailto:rgvelocity@lmf.net] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Mike, So does this mean 11" is okay or do you have the burnt prop problem? Did you start closer to the prop and cut it back to where 11" is the minimum? I'm trying to design a custom exhaust and since this is a "hot" topic wanted to find out what the general experience is with "minimum acceptable" distance to avoid the problem. Thanks for anyone's input. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pollock" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:24 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > Ours is about 11 inches from the prop. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Mark Means > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:57 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Some are talking about longer prop extensions solving the problem but if one > is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't help define what we really > need to know....... is there any consensus on how far the prop needs to be > from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. > > Mark Means > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve korney" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > Ronnie wrote: > > ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie... > > > > The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets > > further from the exhaust valve... > > > > > > Best... Steve > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 16:05:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:05:31 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: <64.31f34760.2c3edabb@aol.com> In a message dated 7/9/03 9:07:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, m.pollock@verizon.net writes: << We chose the longer 8" extension and we have never burned a prop. We do have a little soot, but no burns in 620 hours with an IO-360 with 3-blade Performance propeller. >> Same set-up with 600hrs, no burns, a little soot. TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 16:39:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dale W. Thomas) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F0D6CFA.2020107@tnstaafl.net> References: <001d01c346e2$0feab8a0$25c46cd8@net> <3F0D6CFA.2020107@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <1981.216.28.64.27.1057851591.squirrel@email.web2e.com> Some fodder for a philisophical discussion... As a disclaimer, I know absolutely nothing about the subject... but sometimes that is an advantage because I can think 'outside the box' without realizing it... What I have been seeing is that it is relatively easy to clock a 2-blade prop to coordinate with an exhaust with 2 exit ports. I understand there are several clocking positions that are not available with the 3-blades, but I wonder if we might be missing something... specifically, I am thinking of the 3-blade props and 6-cyl engines. 2 blades, 2 exhaust ports = clean prop 3 blades, 2 exhaust ports = dirty/burned prop Could the reason (or at least part of it) be that 2 will divide evenly into 2 while division using the numbers 2 and 3 never work no matter how you slice it? If someone with the technical know-how were to develop an exhaust for the 6-cyl engine with 3 exhaust ports, could that be clocked and located on the cowl to avoid the blades? Even taking into consideration the availability of only two clocking positions for the 3-blader? After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. I am sure there would be considerable technical challenges to overcome, and there is the basic physical structure and space limitations, but could it be done? And if it could, would it really be worth the effort? And please, if you want to insult me for my ignorance, please do so off the list. My private email is dthomas@web2e.com. But I would be interested to hear any thoughts from those of you with expertise in the area as to whether or not this might even be possible. Dale Thomas From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 17:32:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:32:26 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Andy's Ribs....Blatant Promotion Message-ID: Andy, Thanks. I just got your package of "Andy's Ribs". I had to question myself before I opened the package because I have almost ordered from you on a couple of occasions. I just have to get permission from SWMBO for BBQ stuff. She is from Fort Worth and may take it as a slight to her heritage and ability . I will give them a try VERY soon (well, when Jana returns from a dog show in San Antonio. She is there as a "handler, not a contestant. That way she can use her special touch ;)) Ok, how do I make this personal message pertain (so as to only get flamed a little) to the Velocity project. Oh, I will be sure to eat them as I sit in my dry fitted seats, testing the dry fitted yoke.....making airplane noises with my mouth full. Also, I am having EAA Chapter 12 visit my project for our August meeting (8-13-03)....maybe a larger order for that. Also, I will let y'all know if they really are "all that" . >From the Great State of Texas. All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 17:59:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:59:35 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: If I extend the prop it will have tremendous disadvantages. I am already pushing it (no pun intended) as it is ... because of the short fuselage. I am afraid of a prop strike. -----Original Message----- From: HYTEC45@aol.com [mailto:HYTEC45@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:06 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In a message dated 7/9/03 9:07:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, m.pollock@verizon.net writes: << We chose the longer 8" extension and we have never burned a prop. We do have a little soot, but no burns in 620 hours with an IO-360 with 3-blade Performance propeller. >> Same set-up with 600hrs, no burns, a little soot. TEC _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 18:17:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:17:56 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Andy's Ribs....Blatant Promotion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and the rest of y'all go buy Andy's Ribs too so he can finish his project. Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:32 AM To: Reflector-Velocity Reflector-Velocity List Subject: REFLECTOR:Andy's Ribs....Blatant Promotion Andy, Thanks. I just got your package of "Andy's Ribs". I had to question myself before I opened the package because I have almost ordered from you on a couple of occasions. I just have to get permission from SWMBO for BBQ stuff. She is from Fort Worth and may take it as a slight to her heritage and ability . I will give them a try VERY soon (well, when Jana returns from a dog show in San Antonio. She is there as a "handler, not a contestant. That way she can use her special touch ;)) Ok, how do I make this personal message pertain (so as to only get flamed a little) to the Velocity project. Oh, I will be sure to eat them as I sit in my dry fitted seats, testing the dry fitted yoke.....making airplane noises with my mouth full. Also, I am having EAA Chapter 12 visit my project for our August meeting (8-13-03)....maybe a larger order for that. Also, I will let y'all know if they really are "all that" . >From the Great State of Texas. All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 18:26:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:26:54 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <3F0DA1DE.D854B4@dixie-net.com> I see the same big drop only it is REVERSED. I get the big drop when I turn the mag off, so I question the EI. However I just read in the Franklin manual that the mag/EI should be tested ONLY at 1100-1200 rpm and at 2300-2400 rpm as other speeds will result in large drops. So I will check this out. My EGT increases with either the mag of EI off. This seems logical since the combustion will be less complete during the power stroke and more will occur in the exhaust cycle. My Rose EI has some "smarts", but not as much as you suggest. It simply adjusts timing depending on both rpm and map (higher rpm=more advance, lower map=more advance). The maximum advance is supposed to be 28 degrees which is where the mag runs all the time except for starting. The EI is supposed to be better because it gives a stronger spark of longer duration. To take full advantage of this I understand that the plug gap should be increased to .028, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet because the available tools gap to about .018 only. That's all I know so far..... My mag/EI toggle switches must be pulled out before they can be moved to protect from accidental bumping. John steve wrote: > Hi John, > > This is very interesting...... > > Question: You are at the run up bay, set RPM to xxxrpm ready to do a mag check. > You turn off one mag (or EI). The RPM drops by some value (50-100rpm??)What > happens to your EGT ??? Does it; > > a) stay the same > > b) Decrease to reflect the small loss of power (rpm drop) > > c) Increase > > I thought the answer would be b) but guess what, the correct answer is c). > > I have asked many, some apparent 'experts' but have never had a satisfactory > answer to why this is so. > > I can understand (I think) why the EGT increases when you switch the mag OFF and > run on only the EI. We know that the egt will increase when you are on a single > spark plug firing as outlined above. Now take into consideration that the EI has > some 'smarts' and can both detect the power drop when you turn off the mag and > can adjust the timing to try to recover some lost power. This adjusting of the > timing probably accounts for the extra difference you see when running on the EI > only as compared to the mag only. Just don't ask me to explain it..... case I > don't know. Maybe its simply that the EI is more *efficient**. > > More EI ramblings (sorry)..... > > The EI's are advertised as 'More power from your engine' or 'Saves you fuel' > and to a degree this is true ... you will produce more power with EI than mags > for a certain fuel flow or, you can power back a bit to duplicate the > performance you saw using Mags and of course you are now using less fuel (cause > you powered back). > > Light Speed EI claim as much as 10% fuel saving if you switch out 2 mags for a > dual EI. Some round the worlders back up this claim. All of this goes to prove > that EI allow the engine to be more *efficient* (we knew that already). > > I have 1 EI and 1 mag on my Franklin Velocity, I can guarantee that most people > are amazed at the different 'mag drops' I get during run ups .... turn the mag > off....small rpm drop (about 30-50 rpm) ....turn the EI off Huge rpm drop > 250-300 rpm !! used to be concerned that the mag was faulty, replaced it with > the other new mag, timed it ..... no difference! On an early test flight > climbed to 2000' after T/O in moderate turbulence (bouncing around) suddenly > felt/heard power loss guessed about 20% ....... noticed all 6 egt's rising > significantly, must be something serious..... pucker factor also on the rise, > decided to get down asap ..... uneventful landing..... long story short, I had > knocked the overhead switch panel with my headset in all the bumping around > whilst leaning forward to check for other traffic and knocked the EI OFF !!!! > something to be aware of EI or Mags (unless you have a key type > ignition/starter). > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 18:55:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:21 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: <32.3b54cb8d.2c3f0289@aol.com> In a message dated 7/10/03 10:02:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tmartino@troubleshooter.com writes: << f I extend the prop it will have tremendous disadvantages. I am already pushing it (no pun intended) as it is ... because of the short fuselage. I am afraid of a prop strike. >> As I remember, Velocity at the time (1993) recommended the 8" extension for the STD. I have never felt close at all to a prop strike. By the way, as someone who has made over a hundred extensions, be sure and get a 6" dia. on the crank end and a 7" dia. on the prop end with a 7" dia X 1/2" thick crush plate(for Lycomings). By the way, I don't sell them any more as now days, I have deeper pockets for some rat ass attorney (sorry Chris) to get into in the event of a liability issue. TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 19:16:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030710181636.48977.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, Try contacting Alan Shaw directly (www.wingco.com). I believe he's running an IO-540 in a standard fuselage Velocity. Alan is a really bright guy w/ lots o' experience - he should be able to give you some straight scoop for your application. Pat --- Tom Martino wrote: > This whole thing is giving me a headache! I have a > custom cowling > (provided by Alan Shaw) with left and right holes > exiting straight out > the back. It was part of his conversion package for > the IO-540 on the > 173RG. > > It looks so cool! Each side has three into one ... > but it blows right > through the prop (of course nothing has been fired > up yet). > > I would hate to change all that! I was told that > the way the exhaust > stacks fit through the exit holes ... creates a "air > mix" with a jacket > of air around the exhaust. Who knows? > > Bottom line: I don't want to burn a prop! Does > anyone have experience > with this cowling? Will a four-blade prop make a > difference? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Means [mailto:rgvelocity@lmf.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:52 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > Mike, > > So does this mean 11" is okay or do you have the > burnt prop problem? > > Did you start closer to the prop and cut it back to > where 11" is the > minimum? > > I'm trying to design a custom exhaust and since this > is a "hot" topic > wanted > to find out what the general experience is with > "minimum acceptable" > distance to avoid the problem. Thanks for anyone's > input. > > Mark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Pollock" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:24 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > Ours is about 11 inches from the prop. > > > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Mark Means > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:57 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > > > Some are talking about longer prop extensions > solving the problem but > if > one > > is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't > help define what we > really > > need to know....... is there any consensus on how > far the prop needs > to > be > > from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. > > > > Mark Means > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steve korney" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > > > > Ronnie wrote: > > > ( both incur the wrath of the > 1400 degree > exhaust.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie... > > > > > > The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It > cools rapidly as it > gets > > > further from the exhaust valve... > > > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 > months FREE* > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! 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What is the compression ratio for your engine? What is the minimum recommended octane for your engine? I feel like I must be from another planet. The highest EGT temperature I have seen (during takeoff, max power, Franklin engine) is 970 degrees. Maybe my RMI monitor is off, but my other temps seem right. My IVO prop is 9.5 inches from the 3 into 1 exhaust that exits striaght back. No indication of overheating, just the light "dust" that wipes off. John Ronnie Brown wrote: > Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed prop. No way to clock > it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder IO 360's. No > pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a Velocity and a Cozy, both > with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred spots on one blade > of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, then extinguished. > Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he pronounced it dead > and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it misses, but as someone > mentioned, there are only two positions that a three blade can be installed, > both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. > > I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No soot on the prop > but some on the cowl. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG 55 hours From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 19:56:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:56:29 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: John wrote: I feel like I must be from another planet. The highest EGT temperature I have seen (during takeoff, max power, Franklin engine) is 970 degrees. Maybe my RMI monitor is off, but my other temps seem right. My IVO prop is 9.5 inches from the 3 into 1 exhaust that exits striaght back. No indication of overheating, just the light "dust" that wipes off. John... Your RMI Monitor reads in Celsius not Fahrenheit...Your C to F conversion is 1778 ...Id'e say that's on the hot side... Best...Steve... _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 19:55:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mark Means) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:55:39 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <64.31f34760.2c3edabb@aol.com> Message-ID: <002901c34714$dc290660$d6c46cd8@net> I reiterate, how far from the prop to the exhaust tip? Thanks. Mark > << We chose the longer 8" extension and we have never > burned a prop. We do have a little soot, but no burns in 620 hours with an > IO-360 with 3-blade Performance propeller. >> > > Same set-up with 600hrs, no burns, a little soot. > TEC > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 20:11:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:11:19 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F0DBA57.B7232A7C@dixie-net.com> I already did the conversion since everyone else is using F, the actual reading was 521 C. John steve korney wrote: > John wrote: > > I feel like I must be from another planet. The highest EGT temperature I > have seen > (during takeoff, max power, Franklin engine) is 970 degrees. Maybe my RMI > monitor is > off, but my other temps seem right. My IVO prop is 9.5 inches from the 3 > into 1 > exhaust that exits striaght back. No indication of overheating, just the > light "dust" > that wipes off. > > John... > > Your RMI Monitor reads in Celsius not Fahrenheit...Your C to F conversion is > 1778 ...Id'e say that's on the hot side... > > Best...Steve... > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 20:57:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:57:33 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <002301c34677$f29f8920$54a2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> <3F0DAE32.D67A8A69@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <000b01c3471d$816c7be0$54a2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Steve Korney is correct, the RMI reads out in deg Centigrade. My GRT EIS reads out in Degrees F. I normally see about 1200 deg on take off, leaned out it runs 1350-1400 degrees F. The exhaust temp at the end of the stack would be lower, but apparently for some, it is still hot enough to char a wooden prop if the pipes are close enough. I'll ask the Cozy IV builder what he did about the problem. He had chopped some of the 2 into 1 pipes off but I haven't seen him lately. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | Ronnie, | | What fuel (octane) do you use? | What is the compression ratio for your engine? | What is the minimum recommended octane for your engine? | | I feel like I must be from another planet. The highest EGT temperature I have seen | (during takeoff, max power, Franklin engine) is 970 degrees. Maybe my RMI monitor is | off, but my other temps seem right. My IVO prop is 9.5 inches from the 3 into 1 | exhaust that exits striaght back. No indication of overheating, just the light "dust" | that wipes off. | | John | | Ronnie Brown wrote: | | > Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed prop. No way to clock | > it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder IO 360's. No | > pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a Velocity and a Cozy, both | > with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred spots on one blade | > of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, then extinguished. | > Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he pronounced it dead | > and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it misses, but as someone | > mentioned, there are only two positions that a three blade can be installed, | > both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. | > | > I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No soot on the prop | > but some on the cowl. | > | > Ronnie Brown | > 173 Elite RG 55 hours | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 21:06:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:06:09 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> If the EI is operating normally your EGT's should remain almost the same operating on the EI alone, and EGT's should increase operating on the MAG alone. Something is fishy here. EI mistimed maybe? Scott steve wrote: > Hi John, > > This is very interesting...... > > Question: You are at the run up bay, set RPM to xxxrpm ready to do a mag check. > You turn off one mag (or EI). The RPM drops by some value (50-100rpm??)What > happens to your EGT ??? Does it; > > a) stay the same > > b) Decrease to reflect the small loss of power (rpm drop) > > c) Increase > > I thought the answer would be b) but guess what, the correct answer is c). > > I have asked many, some apparent 'experts' but have never had a satisfactory > answer to why this is so. > > > > I can understand (I think) why the EGT increases when you switch the mag OFF and > run on only the EI. We know that the egt will increase when you are on a single > spark plug firing as outlined above. Now take into consideration that the EI has > some 'smarts' and can both detect the power drop when you turn off the mag and > can adjust the timing to try to recover some lost power. This adjusting of the > timing probably accounts for the extra difference you see when running on the EI > only as compared to the mag only. Just don't ask me to explain it..... case I > don't know. Maybe its simply that the EI is more *efficient**. > > More EI ramblings (sorry)..... > > The EI's are advertised as 'More power from your engine' or 'Saves you fuel' > and to a degree this is true ... you will produce more power with EI than mags > for a certain fuel flow or, you can power back a bit to duplicate the > performance you saw using Mags and of course you are now using less fuel (cause > you powered back). > > Light Speed EI claim as much as 10% fuel saving if you switch out 2 mags for a > dual EI. Some round the worlders back up this claim. All of this goes to prove > that EI allow the engine to be more *efficient* (we knew that already). > > I have 1 EI and 1 mag on my Franklin Velocity, I can guarantee that most people > are amazed at the different 'mag drops' I get during run ups .... turn the mag > off....small rpm drop (about 30-50 rpm) ....turn the EI off Huge rpm drop > 250-300 rpm !! used to be concerned that the mag was faulty, replaced it with > the other new mag, timed it ..... no difference! On an early test flight > climbed to 2000' after T/O in moderate turbulence (bouncing around) suddenly > felt/heard power loss guessed about 20% ....... noticed all 6 egt's rising > significantly, must be something serious..... pucker factor also on the rise, > decided to get down asap ..... uneventful landing..... long story short, I had > knocked the overhead switch panel with my headset in all the bumping around > whilst leaning forward to check for other traffic and knocked the EI OFF !!!! > something to be aware of EI or Mags (unless you have a key type > ignition/starter). > > > Thursday, July 10, 2003, 1:51:21 AM, you wrote: > > JD> Don't know. That's a good point. I'll check the next time I fly. Is > JD> your question for both mag and EI, or each separately? Compared to > JD> both, the EGT is higher with either the mag or the EI (highest with EI) > JD> and the CHT is about 20 degrees lower with either one. > > JD> John > > JD> Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>>Are you LOP or ROP? >>> >>>Scott >>> >>>John Dibble wrote: >>> >>>>At 2300 rpm/22" map, my EGT is 30 degrees higher on EI compared to the mag. I'm >>>>thinking that the EI timing needs to be advanced. However the current EI "settings" >>>>are already 4-5 degrees advanced beyond the 28 degrees specified for the Franklin >>>>engine. If I adjust the EI "settings" to 28 degrees, it's much rougher and backfires >>>>on EI during run-up. Any thoughts about using EGT/CHT to fine tune the timing? >>>> >>>>John >>>> >>> > > JD> _______________________________________________ > JD> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > JD> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 21:09:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:09:47 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: John... In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of about 1250 to 1300 (f) on take-off... Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it out...Keep the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the fuel and it will foul your plugs... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 23:02:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:02:41 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3472e$fc10c110$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Jack, I shortened the radius of the drive servo arm by about 3/4" to eliminate this in my S-Tec 30. Be sure it can not go over center and lock or reverse drive the ailerons. Rene' Dugas XL RG -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:33 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot I have an STEC 30 autopilot installed in my XLRG. I have been working on other things and flying the airplane without the autopilot connected. I now have it connected and the autopilot has a steady roll oscillation . I have been told that the gain needs to be adjusted by changing the value of the resistor. Has anyone done this? Do I really need to have it done by a S-TEC dealer? Jack N55XL _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 00:42:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mark Means) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:42:34 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <002c01c3473c$f07dec20$4bc16cd8@net> Steve, Don't tell me you another one of those suicidal fools flying with an IvoProp (aka DEATH-PROP!!!!) Good luck and make sure the life insurance is paid up. Mark Means 173RG (with Ivoprop :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:56 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > John wrote: > > I feel like I must be from another planet. The highest EGT temperature I > have seen > (during takeoff, max power, Franklin engine) is 970 degrees. Maybe my RMI > monitor is > off, but my other temps seem right. My IVO prop is 9.5 inches from the 3 > into 1 > exhaust that exits striaght back. No indication of overheating, just the > light "dust" > that wipes off. > > John... > > > Your RMI Monitor reads in Celsius not Fahrenheit...Your C to F conversion is > 1778 ...Id'e say that's on the hot side... > > Best...Steve... > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 22:05:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:05:28 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F0DD517.4140D018@dixie-net.com> Thanks, Steve. I'll try that. steve korney wrote: > John... > > In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of about 1250 > to 1300 (f) on take-off... > Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it out...Keep > the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the > fuel and it will foul your plugs... > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 10 22:09:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:09:38 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> I'm thinking the same thing. It's nice to have a second opinion before I go experimenting. John Scott Derrick wrote: > If the EI is operating normally your EGT's should remain almost the same > operating on the EI alone, and EGT's should increase operating on the > MAG alone. > > Something is fishy here. EI mistimed maybe? > > Scott > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 01:45:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:45:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F0D6A0F.1080703@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: We are using the standard exhaust headers that velocity supplied with the 173RG back in 1993. We cut off about 4" of the pipes at the rear to make them flush with our header exits. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:29 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Mike, How far from your exhaust exit and the prop. Also how wide(far apart) are the stacks? I would think keeping both theses distances at a maximum would minimize the heat problem. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > The best way not to cook your prop is to get it further away from the > exhaust. This can be done with a longer extension or changing where the > exhaust is dumped out. We chose the longer 8" extension and we have never > burned a prop. We do have a little soot, but no burns in 620 hours with an > IO-360 with 3-blade Performance propeller. > > I guess some are lucky and some are not. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:12 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Not only true with the M/T but also any three bladed prop. No way to clock > it such that it misses the exhaust, even for 4 cylinder IO 360's. No > pictures but I saw with my two beady little eyes a Velocity and a Cozy, both > with 360's, both with Performance props, both had charred spots on one blade > of the prop, looked like a wooden match that had burned, then extinguished. > Not pretty. The Velocity prop was returned to Clark, he pronounced it dead > and unusable. A two blade can be turned such that it misses, but as someone > mentioned, there are only two positions that a three blade can be installed, > both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust. > > I have a three blade Catto and forward exit exhausts. No soot on the prop > but some on the cowl. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG 55 hours > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:01 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > | So is the conclusion truly that we cannot have a dual rear exiting exhaust > system with an MT prop because it will damage the blades? That is a major > disappointment. > | > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Pat Shea [mailto:xl340hp@yahoo.com] > | Sent: Wed 7/9/2003 1:45 PM > | To: reflector@tvbf.org > | Cc: > | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > | > | > | > | --- Jim Agnew wrote: > | > All of this talk about cooking props yet I have not > | > seen any pictures of a charred or burning prop. > | This > | > sounds a lot like an urban legend. Does anyone have > | > some pictures? > | > > | > Jim > | > | No pics but... > | > | Rodney Brim and the late Steve Drybread made a > | serious attempt at a rear exiting exhaust for Rodney's > | XL (IO-540 w/ 3 blade MT and I think one EI). They > | tried many different configurations (pipes exiting out > | the existing cowl openings, pipes exiting back thru > | lower & outboard openings, pipe tips turned out...) > | but were unable to prevent the exhaust from damaging > | the blades. Steve did have success getting a similar > | engine/exhaust combination to work on the Berkut, but > | since they run a 2 blade fixed pitch prop there are > | multiple clocking positions. There are only two > | positions for clocking the MT on this motor. > | Also, Scott Swing briefly tried a Berkut style rear > | exiting exhaust on the XL prototype (IO-540 w/ 3 blade > | MT) and blistered the prop. > | > | Pat > | > | > | > | > | > | > | __________________________________ > | Do you Yahoo!? > | SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > | http://sbc.yahoo.com > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > | > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 01:45:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:45:37 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <001d01c346e2$0feab8a0$25c46cd8@net> Message-ID: No burnt problem on our prop at 11". That is where we started and have not changed it. I do not know what the minimum would be, but the farther away the better. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mark Means Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Mike, So does this mean 11" is okay or do you have the burnt prop problem? Did you start closer to the prop and cut it back to where 11" is the minimum? I'm trying to design a custom exhaust and since this is a "hot" topic wanted to find out what the general experience is with "minimum acceptable" distance to avoid the problem. Thanks for anyone's input. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pollock" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:24 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > Ours is about 11 inches from the prop. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Mark Means > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:57 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Some are talking about longer prop extensions solving the problem but if one > is using a different exhaust scheme this doesn't help define what we really > need to know....... is there any consensus on how far the prop needs to be > from the pipe to avoid burning? Thanks. > > Mark Means > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve korney" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:21 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > Ronnie wrote: > > ( both incur the wrath of the 1400 degree exhaust.) > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie... > > > > The exhaust is only 1400 (f) at the probe...It cools rapidly as it gets > > further from the exhaust valve... > > > > > > Best... Steve > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 02:01:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:01:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Our prop is only 66 inches in diameter, and the 173RG stands a little taller than the standard velocity. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems If I extend the prop it will have tremendous disadvantages. I am already pushing it (no pun intended) as it is ... because of the short fuselage. I am afraid of a prop strike. -----Original Message----- From: HYTEC45@aol.com [mailto:HYTEC45@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:06 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In a message dated 7/9/03 9:07:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, m.pollock@verizon.net writes: << We chose the longer 8" extension and we have never burned a prop. We do have a little soot, but no burns in 620 hours with an IO-360 with 3-blade Performance propeller. >> Same set-up with 600hrs, no burns, a little soot. TEC _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 02:35:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:35:12 +0800 Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <25669718.20030711093512@yahoo.com.au> Hi Scott, Friday, July 11, 2003, 4:06:09 AM, you wrote: SD> If the EI is operating normally your EGT's should remain almost the same SD> operating on the EI alone, and EGT's should increase operating on the SD> MAG alone. SD> Something is fishy here. EI mistimed maybe? SD> Scott Exactly the same phenomena on the Bonanza and every other aircraft I've flown where there is an Eng Mon to confirm it. (bonanza does not have EI). -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 13:48:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:48:28 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot Message-ID: I found the comments about the S-TEC and its oscillation phenomena particularly interesting. I'm running a Naviad AP and Wing Leveler and see the same type of behavior, especially above approx. 8,000'. When the WL is turned on, it rapidly oscillates L/R. I really didn't have a clue what was wrong and hadn't had it looked at yet, but now I wonder if this is, in fact, the same thing that occurs in the S-TEC. Has anyone had a similar behavior with the Navaid? Solution? Is this problem likely similar/same as with the S-TEC? Chuck N27GV From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 13:44:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:44:20 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot Message-ID: <5EA99398.76B5D1A2.0086622B@aol.com> I've had a navaid for over two years and 200 hrs, it works fine. Bill From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 14:14:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:14:57 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where does the Navaid get it's inputs from? This is a classic coupled oscillation problem. If you gyro lags the actual orientation of the aircraft, then the Navaid is always going to correct (overcorrect) for a condition that existed in the past. If turbulence upsets our airplane, we want the autopilot to immediately correct, just like we do. However, unless there's a good PID algorithm in the autopilot, it's going to correct nice and easy. I doubt they have a CPU controlling this, as it's got to meet a whole other set of rules for certified installation. I could be wrong, I don't know if the S-tec is approved for certified aircraft. Anyway, it could still be a hardware PID, and PID's can be difficult to tune. Back to turbulence. If he have it be nice and snappy in turbulence, then when we are in calm air, it will tend to oscillate, because it is trying to quickly bring the plane back to level. However, if the gyro is lagging the actual state, then the AP will overcorrect, causing the oscillation. It's actually a lot more complicated, but that's the gyst. Other culprits are slack in the control surfaces. Even though some people have added damping to the mechanical output, slack could have been the original problem. All you need to do is move the oscillating frequencies of the aircraft and control system away from each other such that they tend to damp each other out. PID algorithms are pretty cool. P---- proportional: move a proportional distance towards the target The main parameter that makes the PID work. If I have 10PSI of pressure, and an air cylinder moved a weight 50% to my target, set the pressure to 15PSI. I---- integral: the longer I've been off target, move more forcefully towards the target This one keeps one from being "almost" at the target. If there's friction in the system, you need a little bit of push to move small distances to get right on top of the target. D---- derivative: The quicker I'm getting to the target (actually increasing rate of error), move less forcefully. This one keeps us from overshooting the target. If I am a mile away from a stopsign, going 60miles per hour, my error rate is fairly low, it's the error from second to second. At a mile away, it's 1/60. However as I approach the stopsign without reducing speed, then the rate of error becomes 1. I'll overshoot unless I pay attention to the error rate. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:48 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot > > > I found the comments about the S-TEC and its oscillation phenomena > particularly interesting. I'm running a Naviad AP and Wing > Leveler and see > the same type of behavior, especially above approx. 8,000'. When > the WL is > turned on, it rapidly oscillates L/R. > > I really didn't have a clue what was wrong and hadn't had it > looked at yet, > but now I wonder if this is, in fact, the same thing that occurs in the > S-TEC. > > Has anyone had a similar behavior with the Navaid? Solution? Is this > problem likely similar/same as with the S-TEC? > > Chuck > N27GV > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 14:17:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030711131755.77771.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> The oscillation almost always occurs when there is slop in the control system between the servo and control surface. Have someone hold the aileron flush with the wing and move the servo arm back and forth and look for slop. It doesn't take a lot. If you don't have slop then the sensitivity of the unit (the dead zone) may have to be turned down. Jim --- Chuck Jensen wrote: > I found the comments about the S-TEC and its oscillation > phenomena > particularly interesting. I'm running a Naviad AP and > Wing Leveler and see > the same type of behavior, especially above approx. > 8,000'. When the WL is > turned on, it rapidly oscillates L/R. > > I really didn't have a clue what was wrong and hadn't had > it looked at yet, > but now I wonder if this is, in fact, the same thing that > occurs in the > S-TEC. > > Has anyone had a similar behavior with the Navaid? > Solution? Is this > problem likely similar/same as with the S-TEC? > > Chuck > N27GV > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 14:21:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:21:00 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F0EB9BC.3040500@tnstaafl.net> I don't know if you have the lightspeed EI or not. Their manual is online at http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/ and has detailed instructions on how to time any ignition. Scott John Dibble wrote: > I'm thinking the same thing. It's nice to have a second opinion before I go experimenting. > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>If the EI is operating normally your EGT's should remain almost the same >>operating on the EI alone, and EGT's should increase operating on the >>MAG alone. >> >>Something is fishy here. EI mistimed maybe? >> >>Scott >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 15:22:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:22:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot Message-ID: Is there some reason the oscillation would be barely perceptible, if present at all, at low altitudes but fairly aggressive at higher alt (+8,000)? Does the higher altitude induce behavior that mimics, or aggravates, having slop in the servo/control surface or incorrect sensitivity? Brian's comments about PIDs and their associated alogorithms being interesting creatures is certainly true. We control heating in an industrial process with a heater that's driven by a controller that uses Fuzzy Logic. I assume this is the same type of alogorithm application. The closer the heater gets to the desired target, the slower it goes, until it stops right on the target without overshoot. Then it stays there so consistently you'd think the indicator was stuck. As a side note, I understand my parents practiced the alogorithm method but there was too much slack in the controls and that's why I'm here now. But that's another story for another day. Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jim Agnew Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:18 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot The oscillation almost always occurs when there is slop in the control system between the servo and control surface. Have someone hold the aileron flush with the wing and move the servo arm back and forth and look for slop. It doesn't take a lot. If you don't have slop then the sensitivity of the unit (the dead zone) may have to be turned down. Jim --- Chuck Jensen wrote: > I found the comments about the S-TEC and its oscillation > phenomena > particularly interesting. I'm running a Naviad AP and > Wing Leveler and see > the same type of behavior, especially above approx. > 8,000'. When the WL is > turned on, it rapidly oscillates L/R. > > I really didn't have a clue what was wrong and hadn't had > it looked at yet, > but now I wonder if this is, in fact, the same thing that > occurs in the > S-TEC. > > Has anyone had a similar behavior with the Navaid? > Solution? Is this > problem likely similar/same as with the S-TEC? > > Chuck > N27GV > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 14:56:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:56:05 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Brian, About the PID control, I have used them regularly in industrial applications- usually for temperature controllers, but for other things as well, they are great when they have the chance to tune themselves to the oscillations of the system that they are connected to, to reduce undershoot and overshoot. What they are designed to do as you said is to reduce the amount of oscillations that occur within a corrective action- as in a curing oven for example, the unit tunes to the mass of the oven, and the lag in the heating system, so if the oven is under temp, it will turn the elements on with the proper amount of amperage and the proper amount of time so that as the temp approaches the set temp, the elements will turn off just at the correct moment to prevent the temp from overshooting ( thermostats overshoot) we used them for viscosity control with great success also. The problems that all of the PID controllers that I have used (Omron and AB) is that they are not that good at correcting rapid oscillation, nor are they good if you change the system in which they are controlling on a regular basis. I suspect that this is what might be happening if indeed the AP uses this technology to determine servo throw. If the turbulence was the same every time the aircraft was upset, and the aircraft CG and trim situation was the same, then the PID system would have the required number of oscillations to tune. but since none of those elements are constants, I would think that the PID system would remain in a tuning state, and have great difficulty determining the correct outputs to send to the servos to dampen the pitch oscillations properly. But if the AP can not even keep the aircraft level in a non-turbulence state, then it seems that there is something else wrong, since the PID system should have no trouble keeping things in order. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brian Michalk Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:15 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot Where does the Navaid get it's inputs from? This is a classic coupled oscillation problem. If you gyro lags the actual orientation of the aircraft, then the Navaid is always going to correct (overcorrect) for a condition that existed in the past. If turbulence upsets our airplane, we want the autopilot to immediately correct, just like we do. However, unless there's a good PID algorithm in the autopilot, it's going to correct nice and easy. I doubt they have a CPU controlling this, as it's got to meet a whole other set of rules for certified installation. I could be wrong, I don't know if the S-tec is approved for certified aircraft. Anyway, it could still be a hardware PID, and PID's can be difficult to tune. Back to turbulence. If he have it be nice and snappy in turbulence, then when we are in calm air, it will tend to oscillate, because it is trying to quickly bring the plane back to level. However, if the gyro is lagging the actual state, then the AP will overcorrect, causing the oscillation. It's actually a lot more complicated, but that's the gyst. Other culprits are slack in the control surfaces. Even though some people have added damping to the mechanical output, slack could have been the original problem. All you need to do is move the oscillating frequencies of the aircraft and control system away from each other such that they tend to damp each other out. PID algorithms are pretty cool. P---- proportional: move a proportional distance towards the target The main parameter that makes the PID work. If I have 10PSI of pressure, and an air cylinder moved a weight 50% to my target, set the pressure to 15PSI. I---- integral: the longer I've been off target, move more forcefully towards the target This one keeps one from being "almost" at the target. If there's friction in the system, you need a little bit of push to move small distances to get right on top of the target. D---- derivative: The quicker I'm getting to the target (actually increasing rate of error), move less forcefully. This one keeps us from overshooting the target. If I am a mile away from a stopsign, going 60miles per hour, my error rate is fairly low, it's the error from second to second. At a mile away, it's 1/60. However as I approach the stopsign without reducing speed, then the rate of error becomes 1. I'll overshoot unless I pay attention to the error rate. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:48 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot > > > I found the comments about the S-TEC and its oscillation phenomena > particularly interesting. I'm running a Naviad AP and Wing > Leveler and see > the same type of behavior, especially above approx. 8,000'. When > the WL is > turned on, it rapidly oscillates L/R. > > I really didn't have a clue what was wrong and hadn't had it > looked at yet, > but now I wonder if this is, in fact, the same thing that occurs in the > S-TEC. > > Has anyone had a similar behavior with the Navaid? Solution? Is this > problem likely similar/same as with the S-TEC? > > Chuck > N27GV > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 15:17:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Simon Aegerter) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:17:07 +0200 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <1981.216.28.64.27.1057851591.squirrel@email.web2e.com> References: <001d01c346e2$0feab8a0$25c46cd8@net> <3F0D6CFA.2020107@tnstaafl.net> <1981.216.28.64.27.1057851591.squirrel@email.web2e.com> Message-ID: >After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. You are absolutely right, Dale. A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them, depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts (3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least two blades are hit every two turns. Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 15:40:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (AnnSam) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:40:23 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhaust gas temps Message-ID: All these questions about the temps. of the hot exhaust exiting the pipes. Has anyone considered temporarily installing an EGT probe About 1/2 to 1 inch from the tip of the exhaust pipe and getting an actual reading of the exhaust as it leaves the pipe? Might be enlightening. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 15:45:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:45:53 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? (Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? -----Original Message----- From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. You are absolutely right, Dale. A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them, depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts (3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least two blades are hit every two turns. Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 16:20:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dale W. Thomas) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1283.216.28.64.137.1057936853.squirrel@email.web2e.com> It seems it could probably be done. Just design, build and install an exhaust consisting of three parts. Each will serve two cylinders and exit the cowling at different places that will allow the exhaust to pulse between the blades. Seems to work on paper, but like many other things, it may be a daunting task to make it work in real life. But, then again, most new things are like that. It comes down to how bad you want it and is it really worth the effort. Dale > So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? > (Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >>After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. > > You are absolutely right, Dale. > > A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 > degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 deg. > That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. So. > with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the blast in > one of two places: onto the blades or between them, > depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! > > I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts > (3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. > > Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different > result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless > you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least > two blades are hit every two turns. > > Best > Simon > -- > Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 16:32:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:32:41 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F0ED899.7080503@tnstaafl.net> You can always use the forward facing exhaust system sold by the factory. or: Custom Arcraft Parts sells a cool 3-into-1 downward facing exhaust for 6cyl velocity. Both are burn proof for a big 6 with a 3 bladed prop on a pusher. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? > (Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > >>After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. > > > You are absolutely right, Dale. > > A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 > degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 > deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. > So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the > blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them, > depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! > > I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts > (3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. > > Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different > result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless > you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least > two blades are hit every two turns. > > Best > Simon From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 17:36:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:36:57 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: My custom cowling was expensive and I would have to do way more than just a new exhaust. The cowling would basically have to be custom made because I am using a non-standard engine for this airframe (IO-540 on a 173RG) -----Original Message----- From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:33 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems You can always use the forward facing exhaust system sold by the factory. or: Custom Arcraft Parts sells a cool 3-into-1 downward facing exhaust for 6cyl velocity. Both are burn proof for a big 6 with a 3 bladed prop on a pusher. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? > (Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > >>After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. > > > You are absolutely right, Dale. > > A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 > degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 > deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. > So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the > blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them, > depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! > > I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts > (3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. > > Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different > result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless > you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least > two blades are hit every two turns. > > Best > Simon _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 20:35:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Seat belts Message-ID: <20030711193545.57155.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Is anyone using seat belts (three point type with inertia reel) where the receiving side is simi-rigid like in modern cars? Maybe someone has already found some that are size appropriate and adapt well to the standard hard points. I think David Karas had these in his XL, but the my last e-mail address for him is not valid. Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks, Pat (XL) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 18:05:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:05:59 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> <3F0EB9BC.3040500@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F0EEE77.4031DA09@dixie-net.com> Thanks. Lightspeed says to use a timing light which is what I would expect. I was told by Rose, however, that a timing light can not be used with my Rose EI, so I'm looking for other ways to confirm the correct timing. John Scott Derrick wrote: > I don't know if you have the lightspeed EI or not. > > Their manual is online at http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/ and has > detailed instructions on how to time any ignition. > > Scott > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 21:30:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhaust gas temps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030711203042.2030.qmail@web41301.mail.yahoo.com> --0-172245505-1057955442=:1582 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline As a follow up to Sam's comments, he has seen the rear facing exhaust on my plane (since he is in the hanger next to me) and can attest to the no burning with an IO-360 and a Catto 3 blade. Someone asked for dimensions, my pipes are 30" center to center so about 15" out the blade and the pipe tips are 9" from the closest part of the prop. Remember, the tips of my exhaust turn down slightly and are behind the fairing so no drag. See the attached picture. Jim --- AnnSam wrote: > All these questions about the temps. of the hot exhaust > exiting the pipes. > Has anyone considered temporarily installing an EGT probe > About 1/2 to 1 > inch from the tip of the exhaust pipe and getting an > actual reading of the > exhaust as it leaves the pipe? Might be enlightening. > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. 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<177.1d5c825d.2c4092b0@aol.com> --part1_177.1d5c825d.2c4092b0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tom: Both you and I have the same engine on the 173RGE. My exhausts were made by Custom Aircraft Parts in El Cajon. They made the three into one downward facing exhausts and we custom fit them to insure clearance. My suggestion is to contact Clinton Anderson at (619) 561-5757 and he'll solve your problem. Chuck Lehrer N629CL 173RGE w/I/O540 --part1_177.1d5c825d.2c4092b0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tom:
Both you and I have the same engine on the 173RGE. My exhausts were made by=20= Custom Aircraft Parts in El Cajon. They made the three into one downward fac= ing exhausts and we custom fit them to insure clearance. My suggestion is to= contact Clinton Anderson at (619) 561-5757 and he'll solve your problem. Chuck Lehrer
N629CL
173RGE w/I/O540 --part1_177.1d5c825d.2c4092b0_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 04:21:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:21:55 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F0F7ED3.3050505@tnstaafl.net> Tom, You should take a look at the 3-into-1 by Custom Aircraft Parts. Pictures and drawings are on the web site. I'd at lesat do some measuring before throwing in the towel. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > My custom cowling was expensive and I would have to do way more than just a new exhaust. The cowling would basically have to be custom made because I am using a non-standard engine for this airframe (IO-540 on a 173RG) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:33 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > You can always use the forward facing exhaust system sold by the factory. > > or: > > Custom Arcraft Parts sells a cool 3-into-1 downward facing exhaust for > 6cyl velocity. > > Both are burn proof for a big 6 with a 3 bladed prop on a pusher. > > Scott > > Tom Martino wrote: > >>So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? >>(Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net] >>Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >> >>>After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. >> >> >>You are absolutely right, Dale. >> >>A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 >>degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 >>deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. >>So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the >>blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them, >>depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! >> >>I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts >>(3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. >> >>Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different >>result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless >>you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least >>two blades are hit every two turns. >> >>Best >>Simon > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 04:28:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:28:19 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> <3F0EB9BC.3040500@tnstaafl.net> <3F0EEE77.4031DA09@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F0F8053.4060109@tnstaafl.net> Rose must have some way of timing it? Any induction type timing light will work?? How could it not? You just clip the inductor over the plug wire, connect up your power(battery) and that's it? It works with any spark plug wire, it doesn't matter if it powered by a mag, mechanical distributor or an EI. I know the engine must be running to do this which is a drag, but its doable. Scott John Dibble wrote: > Thanks. Lightspeed says to use a timing light which is what I would expect. I was told by Rose, > however, that a timing light can not be used with my Rose EI, so I'm looking for other ways to > confirm the correct timing. > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>I don't know if you have the lightspeed EI or not. >> >>Their manual is online at http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/ and has >>detailed instructions on how to time any ignition. >> >>Scott >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 04:43:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:43:57 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F0F7ED3.3050505@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: How about installing a 2 or 3 element supertrapp muffler there at the end of each pipe. My experience with them is that there is very little restriction created, and the exhaust would not be flowing directly against the prop..... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:22 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Tom, You should take a look at the 3-into-1 by Custom Aircraft Parts. Pictures and drawings are on the web site. I'd at lesat do some measuring before throwing in the towel. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > My custom cowling was expensive and I would have to do way more than just a new exhaust. The cowling would basically have to be custom made because I am using a non-standard engine for this airframe (IO-540 on a 173RG) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:33 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > You can always use the forward facing exhaust system sold by the factory. > > or: > > Custom Arcraft Parts sells a cool 3-into-1 downward facing exhaust for > 6cyl velocity. > > Both are burn proof for a big 6 with a 3 bladed prop on a pusher. > > Scott > > Tom Martino wrote: > >>So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? >>(Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net] >>Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >> >>>After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. >> >> >>You are absolutely right, Dale. >> >>A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 >>degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 >>deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. >>So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the >>blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them, >>depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! >> >>I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts >>(3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. >> >>Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different >>result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless >>you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least >>two blades are hit every two turns. >> >>Best >>Simon > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 04:46:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:46:03 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F0F8053.4060109@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: I agree, the pickup should work on any high tension lead, regardless of the source... unless the shielding on the wire is so good that it prevents the pickup from grabbing enough flux to fire the strobe..... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:28 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Rose must have some way of timing it? Any induction type timing light will work?? How could it not? You just clip the inductor over the plug wire, connect up your power(battery) and that's it? It works with any spark plug wire, it doesn't matter if it powered by a mag, mechanical distributor or an EI. I know the engine must be running to do this which is a drag, but its doable. Scott John Dibble wrote: > Thanks. Lightspeed says to use a timing light which is what I would expect. I was told by Rose, > however, that a timing light can not be used with my Rose EI, so I'm looking for other ways to > confirm the correct timing. > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>I don't know if you have the lightspeed EI or not. >> >>Their manual is online at http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/ and has >>detailed instructions on how to time any ignition. >> >>Scott >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 13:38:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeff Barnes) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 07:38:37 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:OSHKOSH Lodging 2003 Message-ID: <3F10014D.B606B8FD@sbcglobal.net> Hi Folks, I have a few air conditioned room/days for us canardians in Oshkosh. They are available between July 28 and Aug 3rd. If interested, email me back PRIVATE or give me a call. ALSO, if you've saved my email address from earlier postings or correspondence, please replace it with my new address from this email. Regards, Jeff Barnes, Velocity XL-RG buildin' 847 549-7765 home 847 331-2567 cell From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 13:48:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:48:51 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> <3F0EB9BC.3040500@tnstaafl.net> <3F0EEE77.4031DA09@dixie-net.com> <3F0F8053.4060109@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F1003B2.17F8D2B@dixie-net.com> I'll give the light a try. Any suggestions on how to do this safely? The mark is at the top of the engine case. John Scott Derrick wrote: > Rose must have some way of timing it? > > Any induction type timing light will work?? How could it not? You just > clip the inductor over the plug wire, connect up your power(battery) and > that's it? It works with any spark plug wire, it doesn't matter if it > powered by a mag, mechanical distributor or an EI. > > I know the engine must be running to do this which is a drag, but its > doable. > > Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 17:24:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:24:40 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:STEC 30 autopilot Message-ID: <1cb.db0fb13.2c419048@aol.com> --part1_1cb.db0fb13.2c419048_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jack We have just installed the S-TEC system Do you know about set up procedure document 0570? If you are? using any heading system other than S-TEC the auto pilot must be modified. What heading system are you using? I will FAX. you the info. Mack Murphree --part1_1cb.db0fb13.2c419048_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Jack
We have just installed the S-TEC system Do you know about set up procedure=20= document 0570? If you are? using any heading system other than S-TEC the aut= o pilot must be modified. What heading system are you using? I will FAX. you= the info.
Mack Murphree --part1_1cb.db0fb13.2c419048_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 22:23:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:23:11 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:exhaust system, my solution Message-ID: See photos at "photos.yahoo.com/n19dw", click on "Velocity" folder, then on each picture to enlarge. System is 3 individual pipes on each side that direct exhaust down, then bend 45degrees up to exit cowl in an aft direction. Each pipe is one piece rigid with no slip joints, springs or supports, but each has a safety cable. Pipe lengths are from 10 inches long to maximum 20 inches, minimizing heat expelled inside cowling. Advantages: 1) No hot pipes in fwd section of cowl and therefore no possible breaking pipes and fire in fwd cowl. 2) 6 individual pipes minimize exhaust back pressure to give best breathing for each cylinder. 3) Closest pipe exit to MT prop blade is 15 1/2 inches which produces almost no deposit on cowl and very slight glaze on prop.(See photo 6) Note: crankcase breather exit tube clamped to right fwd exhaust pipe. Don't have to worry about that tube freezing. So far 43 hrs on this system with no problems or cracks. Don White N19DW XL/RG From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 22:54:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 14:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:exhaust system, my solution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030712215429.67793.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Actually Don #2 is wrong, 2) 6 individual pipes minimize exhaust back pressure to give best breathing for each cylinder. Properly designed headers actually lower back pressure since each exhaust pulse helps to scavenge the next cylinder by creating a vacuum in the pipe. Jim --- Don19dw@aol.com wrote: > See photos at "photos.yahoo.com/n19dw", click on > "Velocity" folder, then on > each picture to enlarge. > System is 3 individual pipes on each side that direct > exhaust down, then bend > 45degrees up to exit cowl in an aft direction. Each pipe > is one piece rigid > with no slip joints, springs or supports, but each has a > safety cable. Pipe > lengths are from 10 inches long to maximum 20 inches, > minimizing heat expelled > inside cowling. > Advantages: > 1) No hot pipes in fwd section of cowl and therefore no > possible breaking > pipes and fire in fwd cowl. > 2) 6 individual pipes minimize exhaust back pressure to > give best breathing > for each cylinder. > 3) Closest pipe exit to MT prop blade is 15 1/2 inches > which produces almost > no deposit on cowl and very slight glaze on prop.(See > photo 6) Note: crankcase > breather exit tube clamped to right fwd exhaust pipe. > Don't have to worry > about that tube freezing. > So far 43 hrs on this system with no problems or cracks. > Don White N19DW XL/RG > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 00:59:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:59:47 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:exhaust system, my solution Message-ID: Generally speaking, Jim, your right...But, in our case, the cam timing and compression is such, that there is not much gain over individually separated pipes...As long as there approximately 18 inches long...Lycoming rates their engine with straight pipes that our 18 inches long... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 01:39:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:39:32 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> <3F0EB9BC.3040500@tnstaafl.net> <3F0EEE77.4031DA09@dixie-net.com> <3F0F8053.4060109@tnstaafl.net> <3F1003B2.17F8D2B@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F10AA44.6030300@tnstaafl.net> John, I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the brakes on. Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 feet away. Scott John Dibble wrote: > I'll give the light a try. Any suggestions on how to do this safely? The mark is at the top of the > engine case. > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>Rose must have some way of timing it? >> >>Any induction type timing light will work?? How could it not? You just >>clip the inductor over the plug wire, connect up your power(battery) and >>that's it? It works with any spark plug wire, it doesn't matter if it >>powered by a mag, mechanical distributor or an EI. >> >>I know the engine must be running to do this which is a drag, but its >>doable. >> >>Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 04:12:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 03:12:37 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:External aircraft data plate Message-ID: Does any one know the minimum requirements for the External Data Plate on an Experimental Aircraft..?? Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 05:21:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:21:43 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:External aircraft data plate References: Message-ID: <000601c348f6$4453c080$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Steve, See AC20-27E (downloadable from FAA or EAA websites). On page 10, Section 11 is abour identification and registration marking. It says (paraphrasing), a.) The data plate must be as "fireproof" as steel, and must be secured in such a way as to remain attached, even in a wreck. Attachment by riveting or bonding is acceptable. The ID plate must be located on the exterior of the fuselage either adjacent to and aft of the rear-most entrance door or near the tail surfaces, and must be legible to a person standing on the ground. b.) The info on the data plate must include the name of the amateur builder, the model designation, and the serial number of the aircraft. (The model number and serial number should be as provided by the kit manufactuer or dsesigner.) All information should agree with the information submitted on AC form 8050-88 (Affidavit of Ownership for Amateur-Built Aircraft). ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 8:12 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:External aircraft data plate > > Does any one know the minimum requirements for the External Data Plate on an > Experimental Aircraft..?? > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 05:34:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:34:55 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Clearances to flight-control surfaces Message-ID: <001101c348f8$1c46d800$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C348BD.6FBECD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's discuss another imponderable: =20 How much clearance should we be shooting for between the ends of the = aileron (or elevator) and the adjacent parts of the wings? I am aiming = for about a tongue-depressor thickness at this point, but I was talking = to an RV builder, and he said that Van's specifies 0.25 inch! I have heard of at least one case of control surface binding due to = inadequate clearance on a composite aircraft, which resulted in a fatal = crash. We need to provide enough clearance to allow for in-flight = flexing of the components, as well as extra space for bits of debris = (including ice). On the other hand, it's obvious that extra clearance = will induce more drag and loss of lift. Besides, extra-wide gaps look = bad! So, how much clearance is "just enough"?!?!? Keith Hallsten ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C348BD.6FBECD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let's discuss another = imponderable:

How much clearance should we be = shooting for=20 between the ends of the aileron (or elevator) and the adjacent parts of = the=20 wings? I am aiming for about a tongue-depressor thickness at = this=20 point, but I was talking to an RV builder, and he said that Van's = specifies 0.25=20 inch!

I have heard of at least one case of = control=20 surface binding due to inadequate clearance on a composite aircraft, = which=20 resulted in a fatal crash. We need to provide enough clearance to = allow=20 for in-flight flexing of the components, as well as extra space for bits = of=20 debris (including ice). On the other hand, it's obvious that extra = clearance will induce more drag and loss of lift. Besides, = extra-wide gaps=20 look bad!

So, how much clearance is "just=20 enough"?!?!?

Keith = Hallsten
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C348BD.6FBECD20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 07:23:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 06:23:57 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:External aircraft data plate Message-ID: Keith... I appreciate that a lot...Thanks for the right information... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 15:48:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 10:48:10 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:External aircraft data plate Message-ID: <12a.2dd0fd47.2c42cb2a@aol.com> --part1_12a.2dd0fd47.2c42cb2a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve FAR 45.11(d) The exterior placard must have model designation and builder's serial number.Wag Aero list a plate with more information than required. Please note two additional pla cards are required for experimental. Mack Murphree --part1_12a.2dd0fd47.2c42cb2a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve
FAR 45.11(d) The exterior placard must have model designation and builder's= serial number.Wag Aero list a plate with more information than required. Pl= ease note two
additional pla cards are required for experimental.
Mack Murphree
--part1_12a.2dd0fd47.2c42cb2a_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 13 15:05:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 10:05:48 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> <3F0EB9BC.3040500@tnstaafl.net> <3F0EEE77.4031DA09@dixie-net.com> <3F0F8053.4060109@tnstaafl.net> <3F1003B2.17F8D2B@dixie-net.com> <3F10AA44.6030300@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F11673C.C023BAB@dixie-net.com> Scott, Thanks. I thought I would have to get closer. Glad I don't have to. Were you able to pick up the signal through the insulated wire, or did you have to insert something more conductive? John Scott Derrick wrote: > John, > > I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white > stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. > > Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the > brakes on. > > Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the > wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the > gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 > feet away. > > Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 03:42:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 20:42:30 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F0C3581.F0E58397@dixie-net.com> <3F0C43E9.3040502@tnstaafl.net> <3F0C5619.D2390BA2@dixie-net.com> <7618206312.20030710214309@yahoo.com.au> <3F0DC731.9060108@tnstaafl.net> <3F0DD612.85A9F459@dixie-net.com> <3F0EB9BC.3040500@tnstaafl.net> <3F0EEE77.4031DA09@dixie-net.com> <3F0F8053.4060109@tnstaafl.net> <3F1003B2.17F8D2B@dixie-net.com> <3F10AA44.6030300@tnstaafl.net> <3F11673C.C023BAB@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F121896.8030805@tnstaafl.net> My EI uses regular automotive ignition wires. You just clip the sensor over the wire. I'm not sure how it would work on shielded wires, though I think it would work fine. Scott John Dibble wrote: > Scott, > > Thanks. I thought I would have to get closer. Glad I don't have to. Were you able to pick up the signal > through the insulated wire, or did you have to insert something more conductive? > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>John, >> >>I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white >>stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. >> >>Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the >>brakes on. >> >>Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the >>wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the >>gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 >>feet away. >> >>Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 13:36:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:36:47 +0200 Subject: REFLECTOR:+ Beni Werfeli + In-Reply-To: <001d01c33e38$f33c1e80$91a2aa44@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <003901c34a04$97fbebe0$aa23a2d9@ah1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C34A15.5B84BBE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen I am very sad to inform you, that one of our very good friends - Beni Werfely - has passed away. Last Thursday, he was on a flight from Switzerland to Germany when he got technical problemes.=20 He turned back and tried to reach his homebase Grenchen. =20 Short before reaching Grenchen, an explosion occured and the Velocity was falling down.=20 The Aircraft is completely detroyed and burned out! Beni had his co-builder - Bruno Sutter - on Board of Velocity HB-YHB. My thoughts are with Beni, his family and with Bruno.=20 Yours faithfully Alfons Hubmann PS: I shall inform you, as soon as details of this fatal occurence are available.=20 CAT City Air Team HB-YHV - Velocity173FG - S/N92 Sterneng=E4sschen 1 P.O. Box 6620=20 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C34A15.5B84BBE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nachricht

Gentlemen

I am very sad to inform you, that one of our very good friends - = Beni=20 Werfely - has passed away.

Last Thursday, he was on a = flight from Switzerland to Germany when he = got=20 technical problemes.
He=20 turned back and tried to reach his homebase Grenchen.
Short before reaching = Grenchen, an=20 explosion occured and the Velocity was falling down.
The Aircraft is = completely detroyed and burned out!

Beni had his co-builder - Bruno Sutter - on = Board of=20 Velocity HB-YHB.

My thoughts are with Beni, his family and = with=20 Bruno.

Yours faithfully

Alfons Hubmann

PS: I shall inform you, as soon = as=20 details of this fatal occurence are available. =

CAT City Air Team
HB-YHV   - = Velocity173FG  =20 - S/N92
Sterneng=E4sschen=20 1
P.O. Box 6620
CH-3001=20 Berne, Switzerland

Tel:     =20 +41 31 901 22 66
Fax:     +41 31 901 = 11 40
Mob:    = +41=20 79 344 83 83

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C34A15.5B84BBE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 13:36:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:36:33 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F121896.8030805@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: You will not get an induction type pickup timing light to work with shielded wires. I have shielded wires for my mag and the induction timing light will not work. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:43 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems My EI uses regular automotive ignition wires. You just clip the sensor over the wire. I'm not sure how it would work on shielded wires, though I think it would work fine. Scott John Dibble wrote: > Scott, > > Thanks. I thought I would have to get closer. Glad I don't have to. Were you able to pick up the signal > through the insulated wire, or did you have to insert something more conductive? > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>John, >> >>I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white >>stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. >> >>Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the >>brakes on. >> >>Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the >>wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the >>gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 >>feet away. >> >>Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 15:41:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:41:21 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:VELOCITY SAFETY RECORD Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A15.FE400BAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone ever compared the Velocity safety record to other homebuilts and experimentals? =20 =20 Is it my imagination that they have more problems than others (say like a Lancair) or am I just keyed to Velocities? =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A15.FE400BAE Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Has anyone ever compared the = Velocity safety record to other homebuilts and experimentals?

Is it my imagination that they have more problems = than others (say like a Lancair) or am I just keyed to = Velocities?

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A15.FE400BAE-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 15:47:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (David Doyle) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:47:59 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:VELOCITY SAFETY RECORD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C349E4.A3ED60C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might want to monitor the NTSB accident site. Lots on interesting info there -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 8:41 AM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:VELOCITY SAFETY RECORD Has anyone ever compared the Velocity safety record to other homebuilts and experimentals? Is it my imagination that they have more problems than others (say like a Lancair) or am I just keyed to Velocities? ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C349E4.A3ED60C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
You=20 might want to monitor the NTSB accident site. Lots on interesting = info=20 there

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 8:41 AM
To:=20 reflector@www.tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:VELOCITY SAFETY=20 RECORD

Has anyone ever compared = the=20 Velocity safety=20 record to other homebuilts and experimentals?

Is it my imagination that = they have=20 more problems than others (say like a Lancair) or am I just keyed to=20 Velocities?

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C349E4.A3ED60C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 17:06:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:06:23 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: perhaps you could temporarily swap out the number one plug wire for an unshielded one to do your timing.... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:37 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems You will not get an induction type pickup timing light to work with shielded wires. I have shielded wires for my mag and the induction timing light will not work. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:43 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems My EI uses regular automotive ignition wires. You just clip the sensor over the wire. I'm not sure how it would work on shielded wires, though I think it would work fine. Scott John Dibble wrote: > Scott, > > Thanks. I thought I would have to get closer. Glad I don't have to. Were you able to pick up the signal > through the insulated wire, or did you have to insert something more conductive? > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>John, >> >>I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white >>stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. >> >>Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the >>brakes on. >> >>Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the >>wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the >>gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 >>feet away. >> >>Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 3 14:57:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:57:20 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Message-ID: Scott, Thanks for the exposition of your views of the Velocity Views (V V). In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, V V provides a good value. If one is looking at V V as solely a source of KPC's, then it is probably not the vehicle of choice. I suggest the real extra value to me is what you inappropriately call Bull Shit. Without the V V, I will not see the authoritative technical information. I would not have the opportunity to better know those at the factory. I would not know about what the factory is doing and planning. I would not see the "stupid builder tricks" and from those learn how not to do things. Without V V, what would be the factual source for those areas that are important to the factory. V V is a place where I get information about people. V V is one place that I get to know Velocity owners. I see this as a component of strengthening the Velocity Owners community. This is an area where builders can share ideas openly. Yes the Reflector does provide a conduit for the exchange of ideas. I would suggest that an analysis of the Reflector postings shows a significant content that you don't consider worthwhile. Even worse, the Reflector can be intimidating because, without editorial control (and there should not be editing in this type of forum) responses can become personal attacks. The vitriolic responses that we often see do not promote free and open communication. Rather, they attempt to beat the opposing opinion out of existence with emotional intimidation rather than factual response. So I would add those responses to the no value count. While I understand that the cost of kits to future builders may not be of immediate concern to those who have already purchased a Velocity. I suggest it will be a concern in the future viability of the company and therefore, the owner community. Yes I understand that it seems like a small addition, but it is an additional cost and higher cost means decreasing buyers. The best way to ensure the continued evolution of the breed is to continue selling kits. When the factory no longer sells kits, the idea conduit will begin to close, interest in Velocity's will decline and the value of the orphans we own will begin to decrease. Since this has been an area of much posturing and venom in the past, I have worked to keep the tone of this note as neutral. If I have failed, I apologize. What I am hoping to encourage is thoughtful responses that provide open communication and meaningful feedback to Duane and Velocity. I hope that others will look at the issues in the broader view and let Duane know their thoughts. Jerry Scott Derrick cc: Sent by: Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/02/03 10:55 PM Please respond to reflector I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but Duane asked so here goes. Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. Here's how I broke them down. 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit 1/2 good stuff 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good stuff 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 good stuff 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff 1 page Electronics, good stuff 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the current implementation sucks. Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 7 16:03:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ralph Pierce) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 09:03:18 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems Message-ID: <001e01c34498$e6cb3260$d0ae7518@ralph> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C34466.9BD3AE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been trying to get in the air for the past several weeks, but = keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. I have checked the = wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no avail. I taxi out and during the runup checks, the light will come on. So I = taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I can get the light to go out = is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have gas in both wings and = they seem to be feeding evenly. Has anybody experienced a similar problem? Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C34466.9BD3AE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been trying to get in the air = for the past=20 several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. = I have=20 checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no=20 avail.

I taxi out and during the runup checks, = the light=20 will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I = can get=20 the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have = gas in=20 both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly.

    Has anybody = experienced a=20 similar problem?

       =20             =    =20             =    =20     Ralph
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C34466.9BD3AE40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 16:54:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Rourke) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 10:54:29 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <1ef.cd28094.2c3c3292@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F0AE935.3030903@allied-computer.com> It might be interesting to put some strips of the "temperature-tape" in that area, see if there is any appreciable heating of the blade... has anyone heard of anyone doing that? On another note, I'd think a 4into1 would be a candidate for exhaust thrust augmentation (smoother flow - and of course it would have to be rear-facing)... has anyone done anything with exhaust augmentation on any exhaust on a Velocity? I've always wondered if that might help "fill-in" the low-pressure area between the cowl and the prop... -John Rourke HYTEC45@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/7/03 6:19:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >scott@tnstaafl.net writes: > ><< I found out from the factory that one of the reasons they quite selling > the 4-into-1 system that "was" on my plane was overheating. Having all > those cross over tubes in an updraft system and they cross so close to > the oil pan they cooked the oil. > >> >I have been flying the 4into1s for almost 8 years and 600hrs. They do run >close to the sump. I would run high oil temps at first with only the front >cooler, then I installed a rear, and never have any oil temp problems now. One >thing however, they do send all four pulses into the prop and leave residue on >one blade. With a three blade, you can't clock it not to hit one. I really >like the idea of the forward facing pipes. It would prevent the residue and >heat on the prop however I have never noticed any "cooking" of the prop or paint. > >TEC >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 8 21:49:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:49:12 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants Message-ID: <7f.39d3fde0.2c3c8848@aol.com> --part1_7f.39d3fde0.2c3c8848_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7f.39d3fde0.2c3c8848_alt_boundary" --part1_7f.39d3fde0.2c3c8848_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=A0 =A0 I'd like to replace them with a quadrant that has a horizontal base= and=20 the >=A0 =A0 throw starts at about=A0=A0 9:00 and moves up to 11:30, much like t= he kind=20 on >=A0 =A0 simulators.=A0 Any one have any suggested source or suggestions?= =A0 Is it=20 less >=A0 =A0 hassle just to go to all push/pull controls? Like Mr. Martino I bought the 3 lever quadrant from ASS (Aircraft Spruce and Specialty) At=20 the time it was like $35. So it was really cheap. I did not like the way the= y=20 pivoted in the center. It caused a direction reversal and it caused the knob= s to=20 come way aft of the quadrant housing which would have had the knobs in the=20 door way. To top it all off it did not have enough throw for the IO-540.=20 So we took the thing apart (VERY easy to do) and made new larger end plates=20 and pivoted the arms from the end. It worked out VERY well. It was very=20 ergonomic. It was easy to have your arm on the armrest and reach the engine=20= controls.=20 Lycoming hot starts were a breeze (pinkie on throttle thumb on mixture then=20 when it fires twist your wrist!) and the knobs stayed clear of the door way=20 when fully aft. Notice how the inboard plate has the curved cutout to accomm= odate=20 my knee during ingress/egress. Talk about a custom fit! :-) Still I would recommend buying the ASS unit and just think of it as a=20 quadrant kit then make your own end plates. The flat plates are easy, the "k= it" would=20 have the colored knobs, levers, spacers, hardware etc. Nothing you could not= =20 scrounge up on your own but I thought it was worth $35 to get it all in one=20 shot.=20 Rob J. --part1_7f.39d3fde0.2c3c8848_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=A0 =A0 I'd like to replace them with a quadrant t= hat has a horizontal base and the
>=A0 =A0 throw starts at about=A0=A0 9:00 and moves up to 11:30, much lik= e the kind on
>=A0 =A0 simulators.=A0 Any one have any suggested source or suggestions?= =A0 Is it less
>=A0 =A0 hassle just to go to all push/pull controls?

Like Mr. Martino I bought the 3 lever quadrant from ASS (Aircraft Spruce and Specialty) At t= he time it was like $35. So it was really cheap. I did not like the way they= pivoted in the center. It caused a direction reversal and it caused the kno= bs to come way aft of the quadrant housing which would have had the knobs in= the door way. To top it all off it did not have enough throw for the IO-540= .

So we took the thing apart (VERY easy to do) and made new larger end plates=20= and pivoted the arms from the end. It worked out VERY well. It was very ergo= nomic. It was easy to have your arm on the armrest and reach the engine cont= rols. Lycoming hot starts were a breeze (pinkie on throttle thumb on mixture= then when it fires twist your wrist!) and the knobs stayed clear of the doo= r way when fully aft. Notice how the inboard plate has the curved cutout to=20= accommodate my knee during ingress/egress. Talk about a custom fit! :-)

Still I would recommend buying the ASS unit and just think of it as a quadra= nt kit then make your own end plates. The flat plates are easy, the "kit" wo= uld have the colored knobs, levers, spacers, hardware etc. Nothing you could= not scrounge up on your own but I thought it was worth $35 to get it all in= one shot.

Rob J.
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v3SSUW0Y4ze2gKbQz3QWPCSSmtYZ1haw7IQbJJKKW+UbwCVUqtAmLRKSSU7XFZwlzhyeUtoA JyOySSqnOe0jQIlPthrRJukknOjFF1IywHqkkot4TRmA0iFE914gx7pJJXpM5qJzQ63HooHN /wBwkkoxrWK5J2zx2QEbiZ/5SSWkP4iiSe4wUD/ICTf2skkrxL4Q/USLKRggnv3hJJXE9C3R TIgmM3yo3jnlJJJGPPafQgeIfx6K3FyMD0SSWuKMrSAO6Z/Ck3Hft/KSSVTJB06bTVR6hrXP Y0jPPZJJPR3jpE2luAAdHwrek1FTS1N1N1xZJJOX+2mefHS06s6oC536nZKz6lQ3PHZJJAlS 6KkK1VsmxW2QKTdrBDeySSJ2rLjpFwSpWON8JJJ1P1//2Q== --part1_7f.39d3fde0.2c3c8848_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 11 15:56:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (douglas holub) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:56:40 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot References: Message-ID: <002801c347bc$a38f3100$431a570c@Workshop> One explanation might be that the thinner air adds some delay to the control loop, just like a loose cable would. When the air is thinner, it will take more aileron deflection to get the same roll force. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:22 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot > Is there some reason the oscillation would be barely perceptible, if present > at all, at low altitudes but fairly aggressive at higher alt (+8,000)? Does > the higher altitude induce behavior that mimics, or aggravates, having slop > in the servo/control surface or incorrect sensitivity? > > Brian's comments about PIDs and their associated alogorithms being > interesting creatures is certainly true. We control heating in an > industrial process with a heater that's driven by a controller that uses > Fuzzy Logic. I assume this is the same type of alogorithm application. The > closer the heater gets to the desired target, the slower it goes, until it > stops right on the target without overshoot. Then it stays there so > consistently you'd think the indicator was stuck. > > As a side note, I understand my parents practiced the alogorithm method but > there was too much slack in the controls and that's why I'm here now. But > that's another story for another day. > > Chuck > N27GV > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Jim Agnew > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:18 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Navaid Autopilot > > > The oscillation almost always occurs when there is slop in > the control system between the servo and control surface. > Have someone hold the aileron flush with the wing and move > the servo arm back and forth and look for slop. It doesn't > take a lot. If you don't have slop then the sensitivity of > the unit (the dead zone) may have to be turned down. > > Jim > > --- Chuck Jensen wrote: > > I found the comments about the S-TEC and its oscillation > > phenomena > > particularly interesting. I'm running a Naviad AP and > > Wing Leveler and see > > the same type of behavior, especially above approx. > > 8,000'. When the WL is > > turned on, it rapidly oscillates L/R. > > > > I really didn't have a clue what was wrong and hadn't had > > it looked at yet, > > but now I wonder if this is, in fact, the same thing that > > occurs in the > > S-TEC. > > > > Has anyone had a similar behavior with the Navaid? > > Solution? Is this > > problem likely similar/same as with the S-TEC? > > > > Chuck > > N27GV > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 07:00:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:00:19 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3483A.DFEC90FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK ... here is my bottom cowling. Notice the holes for the exhaust? Am I asking for trouble on my prop? Are there disadvantages to a small extension on the shaft?=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net]=20 Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:22 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Tom, You should take a look at the 3-into-1 by Custom Aircraft Parts.=20 Pictures and drawings are on the web site. I'd at lesat do some measuring before throwing in the towel. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > My custom cowling was expensive and I would have to do way more than just a new exhaust. The cowling would basically have to be custom made because I am using a non-standard engine for this airframe (IO-540 on a 173RG) >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:33 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >=20 >=20 > You can always use the forward facing exhaust system sold by the factory. >=20 > or: >=20 > Custom Arcraft Parts sells a cool 3-into-1 downward facing exhaust for > 6cyl velocity. >=20 > Both are burn proof for a big 6 with a 3 bladed prop on a pusher. >=20 > Scott >=20 > Tom Martino wrote: >=20 >>So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? >>(Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? >> >>=20 >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net]=20 >>Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >> >>>After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. >> >> >>You are absolutely right, Dale. >> >>A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720=20 >>degrees. 720/6 =3D 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120=20 >>deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop.=20 >>So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the=20 >>blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them,=20 >>depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! >> >>I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts=20 >>(3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. >> >>Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different=20 >>result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless=20 >>you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least=20 >>two blades are hit every two turns. >> >>Best >>Simon >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >=20 > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >=20 > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >=20 > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >=20 _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3483A.DFEC90FE Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Bottom Cowling.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Bottom Cowling.jpg Content-Disposition: attachment; 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G7tStMpZGUZbByD247VSIZU06aZMRCDo/OWwQPWrOrNuQwqVZiOfT2qqJ1YkFW3MOKWb50YP8rDg Z71djNy0OeYTbJBKCH5Q+3pirGmCNlAZS2V4yPzqW4jXLLKzfMOVA5+uaqpOighCHTGMDqPetehh sy3PaRJiOIhd4/I+1UpYyXywUt059KZd7ri6hIlLYAOwnFWLbezlGwd1NKwnqyiiwee0ZkaNlHfm pvtGwtGXRlI+XHU+1R6jAfMMu3ayn161FDExjx5m7H94fpVkEVz5bIDNG6nHIUdTXNayk8N2l1A0 q9umAK6m8hjeMYUdelZ9zaeY27y1KbeVPQ1SM5IworoNlLiWPdIuPmPJ/CrG4NEAYzIq4G4jp7Y7 1iagPKuMNAyiM5U46VuWl1HeKJIGZQuBMDx+NUyIgP/Z ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3483A.DFEC90FE-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 12 18:47:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rodney Brim) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 10:47:12 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems - Supertrapp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c3489d$a0a35570$1101a8c0@pst.local> I used a supertrapp for approximately 6 months on a 540. It does reduce the sound very well, and does not impact the prop with heat. It does create quite a bit of turbulence that impacts the prop and is most noticeable in a climb. I can't remember specifically, but I believe it resulted in a loss of more than 200/fpm of climb. It's draggy in cruise as well. I've tested various configurations of rear-facing exhausts within the cowling on a 3 bladed prop. I also tried simply chopping the factory forward facing exhausts, and reversing them to flow directly back. I've never had any charring. When exiting from within the cowl exit holes it did raise bubbles on the skin of the MT prop, indicating the existence of heat, and I did get the grey haze or dust which could be wiped away. Directing the exhaust down and back at a 45 (sideways and back would work as well) so the sound foot print gets broken up by the prop, and having enough air space (as the factory or Custom Aircraft Parts design provides) to defuse the heat seems to work best. Rodney Brim, -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems How about installing a 2 or 3 element supertrapp muffler there at the end of each pipe. My experience with them is that there is very little restriction created, and the exhaust would not be flowing directly against the prop..... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:22 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Tom, You should take a look at the 3-into-1 by Custom Aircraft Parts. Pictures and drawings are on the web site. I'd at lesat do some measuring before throwing in the towel. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > My custom cowling was expensive and I would have to do way more than just a new exhaust. The cowling would basically have to be custom made because I am using a non-standard engine for this airframe (IO-540 on a 173RG) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:33 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > You can always use the forward facing exhaust system sold by the factory. > > or: > > Custom Arcraft Parts sells a cool 3-into-1 downward facing exhaust for > 6cyl velocity. > > Both are burn proof for a big 6 with a 3 bladed prop on a pusher. > > Scott > > Tom Martino wrote: > >>So, can the three bladed prop be mounted on an IO-540 to avoid burning? >>(Sorry if I seem dense) If so, how? >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Simon Aegerter [mailto:simon@aegerter.net] >>Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:17 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >> >>>After all, 3 does divide evenly into 6. >> >> >>You are absolutely right, Dale. >> >>A 6-cylinder engine fires 6 times during 2 full turns, that is 720 >>degrees. 720/6 = 120. That means, the blasts are seperated by 120 >>deg. That happens to be the spacing of the blades of a 3-blade prop. >>So. with a 6 cyl. engine and a three bladed prop you can have the >>blast in one of two places: onto the blades or between them, >>depending on how you mount the prop. Presto! >> >>I have not flown a whole lot of hours since I turned my exhausts >>(3-in-1) backwards but I see no charring, just some soot. >> >>Somebody asked about a 4-bladed prop. Same argument, different >>result: a 4-cyl fires 4 times in two turns - so 180 deg apart. unless >>you have 8 ways to mount your prop, you are making sure that at least >>two blades are hit every two turns. >> >>Best >>Simon > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 18:47:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:47:22 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:+ Beni Werfeli + References: <003901c34a04$97fbebe0$aa23a2d9@ah1> Message-ID: <001d01c34a2f$fb060560$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C34A0E.736E1E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NachrichtVery sad to hear this. =20 I did a search on the tail number and got a nice site that he had done: http://www.topline-electronic.ch/hb-yhb.htm We will miss them. Ronnie Brown ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alfons Hubmann=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 8:36 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:+ Beni Werfeli + Gentlemen I am very sad to inform you, that one of our very good friends - Beni = Werfely - has passed away. Last Thursday, he was on a flight from Switzerland to Germany when he = got technical problemes.=20 He turned back and tried to reach his homebase Grenchen. =20 Short before reaching Grenchen, an explosion occured and the Velocity = was falling down.=20 The Aircraft is completely detroyed and burned out! Beni had his co-builder - Bruno Sutter - on Board of Velocity HB-YHB. My thoughts are with Beni, his family and with Bruno.=20 Yours faithfully Alfons Hubmann PS: I shall inform you, as soon as details of this fatal occurence = are available.=20 CAT City Air Team HB-YHV - Velocity173FG - S/N92 Sterneng=E4sschen 1 P.O. Box 6620=20 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C34A0E.736E1E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nachricht
Very sad to hear this.

I did a search on the tail number and got a nice = site that he=20 had done:

http://www.topline-e= lectronic.ch/hb-yhb.htm

We will miss them.

Ronnie Brown

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alfons = Hubmann=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 = 8:36 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:+ Beni = Werfeli +

Gentlemen

I am very sad to inform you, that one of our very good friends = - Beni=20 Werfely - has passed away.

Last Thursday, he was on a = flight from Switzerland to Germany when he = got=20 technical problemes.
He=20 turned back and tried to reach his homebase Grenchen.
Short before reaching = Grenchen, an=20 explosion occured and the Velocity was falling down.
The Aircraft = is=20 completely detroyed and burned out!

Beni had his co-builder - Bruno Sutter - on = Board of=20 Velocity HB-YHB.

My thoughts are with Beni, his family and with=20 Bruno.

Yours faithfully

Alfons Hubmann

PS: I shall inform you, as = soon as=20 details of this fatal occurence are available.=20

CAT City Air Team
HB-YHV   - = Velocity173FG  =20 - = S/N92
Sterneng=E4sschen=20 1
P.O. Box 6620
CH-3001=20 Berne, Switzerland

Tel:      +41 = 31 901 22=20 66
Fax:     = +41=20 31 901 11 40
Mob:   =20 +41 79 344 83 83

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C34A0E.736E1E60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 18:56:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:56:50 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <004101c34a31$4d81a1e0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> But if you are trying to time the Jeff Rose, non shielded wires are used and your induction pickup should work. The key will be disabling the "vacuum" and "mechanical" advances so that you can get a static timing reading. Again, give Jeff Rose a call if you haven't already - he should be very happy to help you - I got lots of info from him in just two phone calls. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Balic" To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:06 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | perhaps you could temporarily swap out the number one plug wire for an | unshielded one to do your timing.... | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Mike Pollock | Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:37 AM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | | | You will not get an induction type pickup timing light to work with shielded | wires. I have shielded wires for my mag and the induction timing light will | not work. | | Mike | | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Derrick | Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:43 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | | | My EI uses regular automotive ignition wires. You just clip the sensor | over the wire. | | I'm not sure how it would work on shielded wires, though I think it | would work fine. | | Scott | | John Dibble wrote: | > Scott, | > | > Thanks. I thought I would have to get closer. Glad I don't have to. | Were you able to pick up the signal | > through the insulated wire, or did you have to insert something more | conductive? | > | > John | > | > Scott Derrick wrote: | > | > | >>John, | >> | >>I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white | >>stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. | >> | >>Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the | >>brakes on. | >> | >>Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the | >>wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the | >>gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 | >>feet away. | >> | >>Scott | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 19:06:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:06:42 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems References: <001e01c34498$e6cb3260$d0ae7518@ralph> Message-ID: <008b01c34a32$ae3169c0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C34A11.26C43C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you haven't checked your flow from your fuel system, take the line = loose going into the mechanical fuel pump and verify that you have good = gravity flow through your systems - at least 20-30 gallons per hour. If = you have good flow, then I suggest you start trouble shooting the level = sensor in the sump tank. What kind of sensor is it? Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ralph Pierce=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems I have been trying to get in the air for the past several weeks, but = keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. I have checked the = wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no avail. I taxi out and during the runup checks, the light will come on. So I = taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I can get the light to go out = is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have gas in both wings and = they seem to be feeding evenly. Has anybody experienced a similar problem? Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C34A11.26C43C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you haven't checked your flow from your fuel = system, take=20 the line loose going into the mechanical fuel pump and verify that = you have=20 good gravity flow through your systems - at least 20-30 gallons per = hour. =20 If you have good flow, then I suggest you start trouble shooting the = level=20 sensor in the sump tank. What kind of sensor is it?

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ralph=20 Pierce
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 = 11:03=20 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank = Low Level=20 Light Problems

I have been trying to get in the air = for the past=20 several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump = tank. I=20 have checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank = to no=20 avail.

I taxi out and during the runup = checks, the light=20 will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I = can get=20 the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I = have gas in=20 both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly.

    Has anybody = experienced a=20 similar problem?

        =             =    =20             =    =20     Ralph
------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C34A11.26C43C40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 19:46:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:46:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Message-ID: Jerry, Thoughtful comments and well taken. I'm definitely in favor of neutral, civilized debate, however, when someone disagrees with me, I feel that they are probably ALL A BUNCH OF SODOMITES AND I HOPE THEY GET AIDS AND DIE!!!!!! Chuck N27GV P.S. If you've never had the estimable pleasure of listening to the Savage Nation radio (and formerly TV) program, you wouldn't understand, so you are permitted to ignore my posting (which most do anyhow). -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jerry.Brainard@anthem.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Cc: duanes@velocityaircraft.com; reflector@tvbf.org; reflector-admin@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" Scott, Thanks for the exposition of your views of the Velocity Views (V V). In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, V V provides a good value. If one is looking at V V as solely a source of KPC's, then it is probably not the vehicle of choice. I suggest the real extra value to me is what you inappropriately call Bull Shit. Without the V V, I will not see the authoritative technical information. I would not have the opportunity to better know those at the factory. I would not know about what the factory is doing and planning. I would not see the "stupid builder tricks" and from those learn how not to do things. Without V V, what would be the factual source for those areas that are important to the factory. V V is a place where I get information about people. V V is one place that I get to know Velocity owners. I see this as a component of strengthening the Velocity Owners community. This is an area where builders can share ideas openly. Yes the Reflector does provide a conduit for the exchange of ideas. I would suggest that an analysis of the Reflector postings shows a significant content that you don't consider worthwhile. Even worse, the Reflector can be intimidating because, without editorial control (and there should not be editing in this type of forum) responses can become personal attacks. The vitriolic responses that we often see do not promote free and open communication. Rather, they attempt to beat the opposing opinion out of existence with emotional intimidation rather than factual response. So I would add those responses to the no value count. While I understand that the cost of kits to future builders may not be of immediate concern to those who have already purchased a Velocity. I suggest it will be a concern in the future viability of the company and therefore, the owner community. Yes I understand that it seems like a small addition, but it is an additional cost and higher cost means decreasing buyers. The best way to ensure the continued evolution of the breed is to continue selling kits. When the factory no longer sells kits, the idea conduit will begin to close, interest in Velocity's will decline and the value of the orphans we own will begin to decrease. Since this has been an area of much posturing and venom in the past, I have worked to keep the tone of this note as neutral. If I have failed, I apologize. What I am hoping to encourage is thoughtful responses that provide open communication and meaningful feedback to Duane and Velocity. I hope that others will look at the issues in the broader view and let Duane know their thoughts. Jerry Scott Derrick cc: Sent by: Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/02/03 10:55 PM Please respond to reflector I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but Duane asked so here goes. Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs and tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to avail myself of all available information to help me maintain and modify my aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service and the service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. Here's how I broke them down. 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit 1/2 good stuff 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good stuff 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 good stuff 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff 1 page Electronics, good stuff 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the current implementation sucks. Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 19:23:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:23:35 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cowl back end Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34A35.09953C29" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A35.09953C29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How are others dealing with the back end of the cowl? I have seen nice circular vents some have created. Did they do it themselves? How? =20 I have factory standard cowl that have been lopped at the back to clear the prop. Needless to say, there are big gaping hole at back where you can just about see the entire engine if you look in. I am sure I could leave it open but it makes me feel like I am going on a parade without pants on. (a bit exposed, you know) =20 Hiroo ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A35.09953C29 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

How are others dealing with the back end of the = cowl? I have seen nice circular vents some have created. Did they do it themselves? How?

I have factory standard cowl that have been lopped at = the back to clear the prop. Needless to say, there are big gaping hole = at back where you can just about see the entire engine if you look = in. I am sure I could leave it open but it makes me feel like I am going on a = parade without pants on. (a bit exposed, you know)

Hiroo

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A35.09953C29-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 19:27:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Velocity_AZ) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:27:12 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cowl back end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C349FA.DEEE0BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hiroo, The circular vents come on the XLs. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:24 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Cowl back end How are others dealing with the back end of the cowl? I have seen nice circular vents some have created. Did they do it themselves? How? I have factory standard cowl that have been lopped at the back to clear the prop. Needless to say, there are big gaping hole at back where you can just about see the entire engine if you look in. I am sure I could leave it open but it makes me feel like I am going on a parade without pants on. (a bit exposed, you know) Hiroo ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C349FA.DEEE0BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi= roo,

Th= e circular vents come on the XLs.

Ke= vin

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno
Sent: Monday, July 14, = 2003 11:24 AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Cowl = back end

How are others dealing with the back end of the cowl? I have seen nice = circular vents some have created. Did they do it themselves? = How?<= /p>
<= /p>
I have factory standard cowl that have been lopped at the back to clear the prop. Needless to say, there are big gaping hole at back where you = can just about see the entire engine if you look in. I am sure I could = leave it open but it makes me feel like I am going on a parade without pants = on. (a bit exposed, you know)<= /p>
<= /p>
Hiroo<= /p>
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C349FA.DEEE0BA0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:00:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:00:10 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: I don't know about the cowl, but it doesn't look like you mow you lawn very often... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:09:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Doug Kanczuzewski) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:09:57 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Weight and Balance In-Reply-To: <3F04E58A.1030205@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <001e01c34a3b$9a65e200$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> Just did the weight and balance and the plane is showing 369 pounds more then the owners manual. Ended up with 2009 pounds (US) on an XLRG with the IO-540. I know where some of the weight is coming from, but still have an extra 300 pounds. What are other velocity owners showing with similar planes? From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:20:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:20:34 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:EXHAUST SYSTEMS Message-ID: With exhaust exiting straight out the back ... what would be a safe distance from the end of the exhaust pipe and the prop disk. From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:47:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Gilles Gratton) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:47:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems In-Reply-To: <001e01c34498$e6cb3260$d0ae7518@ralph> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C34A1F.437A0E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ralph, I just experienced the same problem a few weeks ago. I had the low level switch that came from Velocity with the kit. Turns out the float was taking in fuel and was sinking thus indicating low fuel level. Just replace the switch. I was ordering from Wicks and that where I got a replacement this time. Works fine (even without hiting the sump tank) Gilles -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ralph Pierce Sent: 7 juillet 2003 11:03 To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems I have been trying to get in the air for the past several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. I have checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no avail. I taxi out and during the runup checks, the light will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I can get the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have gas in both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly. Has anybody experienced a similar problem? Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C34A1F.437A0E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ralph, I just experienced the same problem a few weeks = ago. I=20 had the low level switch that came from Velocity with the kit. =20

          &nbs= p;  =20 Turns out the float was taking in fuel and was sinking thus indicating = low fuel=20 level. Just replace the switch.

          I was = ordering=20 from Wicks and that where I got a replacement this time.   = Works fine=20 (even without hiting the sump tank)

Gilles

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ralph=20 Pierce
Sent: 7 juillet 2003 11:03
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level = Light=20 Problems

I have been trying to get in the air = for the past=20 several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump = tank. I=20 have checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank = to no=20 avail.

I taxi out and during the runup = checks, the light=20 will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I = can get=20 the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I = have gas in=20 both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly.

    Has anybody = experienced a=20 similar problem?

        =             =    =20             =    =20     Ralph
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C34A1F.437A0E60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:42:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:42:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F1307A8.7C0411A7@dixie-net.com> Steve, My airport is 1020' and the altimeter setting was 30.2 today. During taxi I leaned it with the mixture about 2/3 out which seemed like a lot. The EGT got up to 930 F druing taxi. I did the mag check at 1150 rpm and the EI did run stronger than the mag like it should. When I gave it full throttle for take-off, it cut out so I richened the mixture to 1/3 out. Do I need to add throttle more slowly? My fuel pressure normally runs 8-9 psig. Today it fluctuated in the 11-20 psig range. Has anyone seen the fuel pressure run that high? John steve korney wrote: > John... > > In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of about 1250 > to 1300 (f) on take-off... > Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it out...Keep > the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the > fuel and it will foul your plugs... > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:50:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:50:24 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems Message-ID: --part1_cb.35301db4.2c446380_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ralph, How far from the sump top is the sending unit? Which AC model? Bob Wood --part1_cb.35301db4.2c446380_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ralph,

How far from the sump top is the sending unit? Which AC model?

Bob Wood --part1_cb.35301db4.2c446380_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:56:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:56:16 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Weight and Balance Message-ID: <129.2df1894a.2c4464e0@aol.com> --part1_129.2df1894a.2c4464e0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit XL FG -- 1661 lbs (Before painting) Bob Wood --part1_129.2df1894a.2c4464e0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable XL FG -- 1661 lbs (Before painting)

Bob Wood --part1_129.2df1894a.2c4464e0_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 21:43:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:43:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Weight and Balance Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A48.994DD2C0 Content-Type: text/plain XL RG 540-300, painted and finished, 1870# Chuck Jensen ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A48.994DD2C0 Content-Type: text/html
XL RG 540-300, painted and finished, 1870#

Chuck Jensen

------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A48.994DD2C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 20:54:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:54:55 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: Message-ID: <3F130A8F.72587E0B@dixie-net.com> For those who didn't notice, Duane discussed these VV issues in the current (3Q) VV and solocited our comments for proposed changes. John Jerry.Brainard@anthem.com wrote: > Scott, > > Since this has been an area of much posturing and venom in the past, I have > worked to keep the tone of this note as neutral. If I have failed, I > apologize. What I am hoping to encourage is thoughtful responses that > provide open communication and meaningful feedback to Duane and Velocity. > I hope that others will look at the issues in the broader view and let > Duane know their thoughts. > > Jerry > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 21:06:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:06:12 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <004101c34a31$4d81a1e0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F130D34.FAA37E4B@dixie-net.com> I believe the Velocity people replaced my wires with shielded ones during a conditional inspection. Is this a problem? When I talked to Jeff, he mentioned the wires were shielded as well. The vacuum is easily disabled by unplugging a wire and the "mechanical" can't be isolated so I need to check the timing at full rpm. John Ronnie Brown wrote: > But if you are trying to time the Jeff Rose, non shielded wires are used and > your induction pickup should work. The key will be disabling the "vacuum" > and "mechanical" advances so that you can get a static timing reading. > > Again, give Jeff Rose a call if you haven't already - he should be very > happy to help you - I got lots of info from him in just two phone calls. > > Ronnie From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 21:20:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:20:41 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Weight and Balance In-Reply-To: <001e01c34a3b$9a65e200$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <001e01c34a3b$9a65e200$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: Doug, Seems a little heavy, You may want to make sure the aircraft was level so that the weight was distributed correctly but I suppose the total would be the same. My aircraft N55XL (XL-RG) was 1770# empty with trapped fuel and oil. The aircraft was unpainted but pretty heavy primer. I would guess that after sanding and then painting I probably increased the weight another 20-25 #. Jack N55XL From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 21:30:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (johnward) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:30:28 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems References: <001e01c34498$e6cb3260$d0ae7518@ralph> Message-ID: <003201c34a46$c4a63960$bb8066d1@johnward> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C34A1C.DAE53520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ralph, I was told to paint the float with epoxy before installing due to the = porous nature of the float. =20 John ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ralph Pierce=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems I have been trying to get in the air for the past several weeks, but = keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. I have checked the = wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no avail. I taxi out and during the runup checks, the light will come on. So I = taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I can get the light to go out = is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have gas in both wings and = they seem to be feeding evenly. Has anybody experienced a similar problem? Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C34A1C.DAE53520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ralph,

I was told to paint the float with = epoxy before=20 installing due to the porous nature of the float.

John

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ralph=20 Pierce
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 = 10:03=20 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank = Low Level=20 Light Problems

I have been trying to get in the air = for the past=20 several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump = tank. I=20 have checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank = to no=20 avail.

I taxi out and during the runup = checks, the light=20 will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I = can get=20 the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I = have gas in=20 both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly.

    Has anybody = experienced a=20 similar problem?

        =             =    =20             =    =20     Ralph
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C34A1C.DAE53520-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 23:06:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:06:18 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F1307A8.7C0411A7@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <005301c34a54$272bdc40$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Something doesn't sound right. If your engine cut off or stumbled when applying full power, then it is running too lean. It sounds like your EGT's aren't reading correctly? Perhaps get an A/P or someone familiar with aircraft engines to help out. You can ruin your engine by running it too lean at full power - that is when detonation occurs and it can literally destroy your heads and pistons. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:42 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | Steve, | My airport is 1020' and the altimeter setting was 30.2 today. During taxi I leaned it | with the mixture about 2/3 out which seemed like a lot. The EGT got up to 930 F | druing taxi. I did the mag check at 1150 rpm and the EI did run stronger than the mag | like it should. When I gave it full throttle for take-off, it cut out so I richened | the mixture to 1/3 out. Do I need to add throttle more slowly? | My fuel pressure normally runs 8-9 psig. Today it fluctuated in the 11-20 psig | range. Has anyone seen the fuel pressure run that high? | | John | | steve korney wrote: | | > John... | > | > In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of about 1250 | > to 1300 (f) on take-off... | > Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it out...Keep | > the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the | > fuel and it will foul your plugs... | > | > Best... Steve | > | > _________________________________________________________________ | > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. | > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 23:59:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:59:58 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems References: <001e01c34498$e6cb3260$d0ae7518@ralph> Message-ID: <004501c34a5b$a6a29ca0$0300a8c0@DAD> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C34A3A.1F1B5770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it's not too much of a problem, I suggest that you remove the float = switch and inspect it for proper function. The hollow bulb may be = filled (or partially filled) with fuel. Some of the older float = switches were design for designed to float in water and not necessarily = in fuel. The specific gravity of fuel is, of course, less than water = (water sinks in fuel) ... and with that in mind, the float while working = great in water, is not quite a buoyant in fuel ... which means that any = collection (even a little bit) of fuel in the bowl - or - maybe the flow = disturbance of fresh fuel entering into the sump tank, might cause the = floaty thing to "bob it's head" down and give you an indication of Low = Fuel. When you test the float, dunk it in fuel (rather than water) to = see if it has a strong "float" action. If not, I suggest replacing the = float switch with a new unit. Best regards, Scott B. By the way, the factory XL prototype N97XL had a similar problem (the = "low fuel" light coming on in flight). Scared the bejesus out of you = when the light came on ... solution was to kick a rudder to force the = fuel in the sump tank to "slosh" and the light would blink "out". Oh = well. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ralph Pierce=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems I have been trying to get in the air for the past several weeks, but = keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. I have checked the = wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no avail. I taxi out and during the runup checks, the light will come on. So I = taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I can get the light to go out = is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have gas in both wings and = they seem to be feeding evenly. Has anybody experienced a similar problem? Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C34A3A.1F1B5770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If it's not too much of a problem, I = suggest that=20 you remove the float switch and inspect it for proper function. = The hollow=20 bulb may be filled (or partially filled) with fuel. Some of the = older=20 float switches were design for designed to float in water and not = necessarily in=20 fuel. The specific gravity of fuel is, of course, less than water = (water=20 sinks in fuel) ... and with that in mind, the float while working great = in=20 water, is not quite a buoyant in fuel ... which means that any = collection (even=20 a little bit) of fuel in the bowl - or - maybe the flow disturbance of = fresh=20 fuel entering into the sump tank, might cause the floaty thing to "bob = it's=20 head" down and give you an indication of Low Fuel. When you test = the=20 float, dunk it in fuel (rather than water) to see if it has a strong = "float"=20 action. If not, I suggest replacing the float switch with a new=20 unit.

Best regards,

Scott B.

By the way, the factory XL prototype = N97XL had a=20 similar problem (the "low fuel" light coming on in flight). Scared = the=20 bejesus out of you when the light came on ... solution was to kick a = rudder to=20 force the fuel in the sump tank to "slosh" and the light would blink=20 "out". Oh well.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ralph=20 Pierce
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 = 11:03=20 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank = Low Level=20 Light Problems

I have been trying to get in the air = for the past=20 several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump = tank. I=20 have checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank = to no=20 avail.

I taxi out and during the runup = checks, the light=20 will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I = can get=20 the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I = have gas in=20 both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly.

    Has anybody = experienced a=20 similar problem?

        =             =    =20             =    =20     Ralph
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C34A3A.1F1B5770-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 00:49:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Milton Mersky) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:49:09 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:+ Beni Werfeli + References: <003901c34a04$97fbebe0$aa23a2d9@ah1> Message-ID: <3F134175.7040900@airmail.net> Please inform the families of Beni Werfely and Bruno Sutter that we all extend our deepest sympathy for their loss. Mr. & Mras. Milton Mersky Alfons Hubmann wrote: > Gentlemen > > I am very sad to inform you, that one of our very good friends - Beni > Werfely - has passed away. > > Last Thursday, he was on a flight from Switzerland to Germany when he > got technical problemes. > He turned back and tried to reach his homebase Grenchen. > Short before reaching Grenchen, an explosion occured and the Velocity > was falling down. > The Aircraft is completely detroyed and burned out! > > Beni had his co-builder - Bruno Sutter - on Board of Velocity HB-YHB. > > My thoughts are with Beni, his family and with Bruno. > > Yours faithfully > > Alfons Hubmann > > PS: I shall inform you, as soon as details of this fatal occurence > are available. > > CAT City Air Team > HB-YHV - Velocity173FG - S/N92 > Sterneng�sschen 1 > P.O. Box 6620 > > CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland > > Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 > Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 > Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 01:06:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Milton Mersky) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:06:17 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:explosion Message-ID: <3F134579.2030705@airmail.net> how does a composite plane explode? milt From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 01:21:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Overman) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715002131.14968.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jerry.Brainard@anthem.com wrote: > > Scott, > > Thanks for the exposition of your views of the > Velocity Views (V V). > > In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, V V > provides a good value. I know this subject has been beat to death over the past months, and I for one find value in the "views" and intend to continue subscribing. However, on another note I would hope that every owner of a velocity is a member (subscriber)of the Central States Association. Terry Schubert has published the newsletter since its inception and he does a fabulous job. If I had to choose between it and the velocity views I would keep the CSA. It is for all canard people, is printed on cheap paper every issue has very informative articles concerning canard planes and their modification and upkeep. The last issue was 32 pages. Annual subscription is I've forgotten but I think somewhere around $20. If anyone is interested e-mail me and I'll send you his address. I'm not connected with CSA except as a member subscriber. John __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 02:16:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:16:37 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems In-Reply-To: <001e01c34498$e6cb3260$d0ae7518@ralph> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_IseBFoM82rzc39oKl62XDg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ralph, I assume that you are using the float type switch- you will probably need to remove it, and clean the pivot points of foreign debris, I used to spec these in equipment that we designed, but changed to the solid state liquid detecting switches instead for the exact reason that you are stating- the float types hang up sometimes, an sometimes the floats will leak, and then they sink..... if you are interested in the solid state units, "Gems" makes them, and you can get them from McMaster Carr for about $80. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ralph Pierce Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:03 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems I have been trying to get in the air for the past several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. I have checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no avail. I taxi out and during the runup checks, the light will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I can get the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have gas in both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly. Has anybody experienced a similar problem? Ralph --Boundary_(ID_IseBFoM82rzc39oKl62XDg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Ralph,

I assume that you are using the float type switch- you will probably need to remove it, and clean the pivot points of foreign debris, I used to spec these in equipment that we designed, but changed to the solid state liquid detecting switches instead for the exact reason that you are stating- the float types hang up sometimes, an sometimes the floats will leak, and then they sink..... if you are interested in the solid state units, "Gems" makes them, and you can get them from McMaster Carr for about $80.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ralph Pierce
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:03 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems

I have been trying to get in the air for the past several weeks, but keep getting a low level light on my sump tank. I have checked the wiring, and blew our my vent line from the sump tank to no avail.

I taxi out and during the runup checks, the light will come on. So I taxi back to the hanger - and the only way I can get the light to go out is to hit the sump tank good and hard. I have gas in both wings and they seem to be feeding evenly.

    Has anybody experienced a similar problem?

                                            Ralph
--Boundary_(ID_IseBFoM82rzc39oKl62XDg)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 03:30:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:30:12 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Sump Tank Low Level Light Problems Message-ID: --part1_ac.44279827.2c44c134_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ralph Some early floats would not tolerate AV gas and would stick. Also some times the incoming fuel stream from the main tank to the sump strikes the float and turns on the light. Mack Murphree --part1_ac.44279827.2c44c134_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ralph
Some early floats would not tolerate AV gas and would stick. Also some time= s the incoming fuel stream from the main tank to the sump strikes the float=20= and turns on the light.
Mack Murphree --part1_ac.44279827.2c44c134_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 03:36:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:36:52 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:explosion Message-ID: <1d1.dbfd28d.2c44c2c4@aol.com> --part1_1d1.dbfd28d.2c44c2c4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would never fly another Velocity with out a fire warning system. Mack --part1_1d1.dbfd28d.2c44c2c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would never fly another Veloci= ty with out a fire warning system.
Mack --part1_1d1.dbfd28d.2c44c2c4_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 05:33:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 06:33:42 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion In-Reply-To: <3F134579.2030705@airmail.net> Message-ID: <000801c34a8a$45cd98b0$aa23a2d9@ah1> Milt We have very strong regulations under Far 23 in most countries of Europe: One of them is noise-level. Therefore we have to install sophisticated exhaust-systems with silencers. This means, you have glowing steel tubes in the engine compartment. It must be a very highquality steel to ensure it does not get damages by corrosion to quick. These glowing tubes are very close to the fuel system as well. Aircraft which are not complying with the noise limits are grounded. And this law will be enforced very soon even more than up to now. Can you imagine? Yours, Alfons Alfons Hubmann - Treuhandpraxis STV /HFW - Wirtschaftsinformatik - Consulting Tel: +4131 901 22 66 Fax: +4131 901 11 40 Mob: +4179 344 83 83 Sternengasschen 1 Postfach 6620 CH-3001 Bern www.hubmann.ch <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Message-ID: <01e401c34a94$2e5a7040$5126fea9@greg> Jerry, There are others out here - particularly in distant countries that share Scott's base analysis of VV content and putting VV out only via the printed medium. I have previously put my thoughts to Duane Swing via email but fear, as indicated by another Reflectorite, that the request for feedback in this regard is only pertinent when it contains the answers that the factory wants to hear. I have a friend with a long finished Lancair 360 that still receives a posted complimentary newsletter update despite that his aircraft has been finished for 5 years. On principle, I sorely resent only being able to obtain KPC's and technical developments via VV (- certainly not client friendly and a form of extortion IMHO) - especially when the majority of us have access (even via a relative or friend) to this very modern means that I am currently using to communicate with you. I appreciate there are those that have an aversion to computers, but why should we cater to the lowest denominator (i.e.: minority)? For timeliness and production cost nothing beats this medium ....and I cannot stand the argument that the cost of production is going to be any greater than currently as the technical info and articles have to be typed anyway and can be simply uploaded to the web. The factory has a web site already - why is it not possible to put VV issues on it? ...and those that want hard copy can have them printed off. On principle, I do not want to pay for international mail and 4 issues of VV per year at the prevailing exchange rates. I subscribed to VV for several years and bought all the back issues to ensure I got all the technical info necessary to build a Velocity safely. Most of this information would have optimally been readily available in updated manuals (thank goodness they finally got around to doing it) and in searchable digests instead of having to trudge through allot of event material that is of limited relevance to most of us (perhaps not all!) overseas Velocity people. At one stage due to exchange rate effects, I effectively paid AUD$20 per issue....when I analysed several editions and took the repetitious advertisements, the U.S. event reports/promotional stuff out, and some factory editorial out , it was costing me something like $2.37 per page! Do I want strong technical articles on building and flying Velocity aircraft, and factory updates? You bet! ....should I pay for paper and postage when there is a more modern and convenient medium?? Well, I believe the silent majority has been voting with their feet and hence the urgings to subscribe. I speak regularly with Velocity friends in the U.S. and regularly check if there is anything new that I should know about - if it is important, I get to hear about it. Now I know my view is not shared by my friend Jeff Barnes and several others including yourself Jerry, but you should know that Scott is not alone in wanting change for the better in this area. Regards from Down Under, Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:57 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > > Scott, > > Thanks for the exposition of your views of the Velocity Views (V V). > > In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, V V provides a good value. > If one is looking at V V as solely a source of KPC's, then it is probably > not the vehicle of choice. > > I suggest the real extra value to me is what you inappropriately call Bull > Shit. Without the V V, I will not see the authoritative technical > information. I would not have the opportunity to better know those at the > factory. I would not know about what the factory is doing and planning. I > would not see the "stupid builder tricks" and from those learn how not to > do things. Without V V, what would be the factual source for those areas > that are important to the factory. > > V V is a place where I get information about people. V V is one place that > I get to know Velocity owners. I see this as a component of strengthening > the Velocity Owners community. This is an area where builders can share > ideas openly. > > Yes the Reflector does provide a conduit for the exchange of ideas. I > would suggest that an analysis of the Reflector postings shows a > significant content that you don't consider worthwhile. Even worse, the > Reflector can be intimidating because, without editorial control (and there > should not be editing in this type of forum) responses can become personal > attacks. The vitriolic responses that we often see do not promote free and > open communication. Rather, they attempt to beat the opposing opinion out > of existence with emotional intimidation rather than factual response. So > I would add those responses to the no value count. > > While I understand that the cost of kits to future builders may not be of > immediate concern to those who have already purchased a Velocity. I > suggest it will be a concern in the future viability of the company and > therefore, the owner community. Yes I understand that it seems like a > small addition, but it is an additional cost and higher cost means > decreasing buyers. The best way to ensure the continued evolution of the > breed is to continue selling kits. When the factory no longer sells kits, > the idea conduit will begin to close, interest in Velocity's will decline > and the value of the orphans we own will begin to decrease. > > Since this has been an area of much posturing and venom in the past, I have > worked to keep the tone of this note as neutral. If I have failed, I > apologize. What I am hoping to encourage is thoughtful responses that > provide open communication and meaningful feedback to Duane and Velocity. > I hope that others will look at the issues in the broader view and let > Duane know their thoughts. > > Jerry > > > > Scott Derrick > et> cc: > Sent by: Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > reflector-admin@t > vbf.org > > > 07/02/03 10:55 PM > Please respond to > reflector > > > > > > > I think this topic has been run through the mill numerous times, but > Duane asked so here goes. > > Last year about this time I was on the fence about re-subscribing. I > bought my V already built though it was in need of numerous repairs and > tweaking t get it fly able. I want to fly a safe plane and try to avail > myself of all available information to help me maintain and modify my > aircraft. SO the question is does VV provide this service and the > service it provides is it worth the cost of $45 a year. > > There were 20 pages in this quarters news letter. > > Here's how I broke them down. > > 6 pages on the Williamsburg Fly In, Wasted bull shit. > > 1/3 page on KPC's, Good stuff! > > 1 page Builders hints, good stuff. > > 2 pages Factory News, 1 page on the WIlliamsburg Flyin, 1/2 bullshit 1/2 > good stuff > > 1.5 Factory notices, most a repeat every issue, 2/3 bullshit 1/3 good > stuff > > 1.5 pages Scott Baker, 1.2 on Williamsburg/Oshkosh, 1.2 bull shit, 1/2 > good stuff > > 2 pages A&P Talks, good stuff > > 1 page Electronics, good stuff > > 2 pages Subscription info, all bull shit > > 1.5 builders Forums, good stuff > > 1.5 ads, most repeats good stuff > > so we have about 11 pages of bull shit and 9 pages of good stuff all > printed on very nice paper in a magazine format. > > The last issue I noticed had a large amount of fluff(bull shit). I > realize that the intrinsic worth of the VV is very large but the current > implementation sucks. > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 07:08:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:08:58 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity Message-ID: <001b01c34a97$9558ae80$17b070d1@jeffreyhome> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C34A54.866414C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it = is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going = down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in = AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the = engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an = upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber = to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity = fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the = trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of = this road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one = way or the other, THANX Jeff Clough ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C34A54.866414C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok...I give up....I will never complete my = Velocity=20 173 RG as long as it is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in=20 Alaska...soooooo...I am going down to put it on trailer and truck it = 3500 miles=20 to my house here in AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I = gut it=20 and remove the engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the = launch pad=20 in an upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 = lumber=20 to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the = Velocity=20 fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to = the=20 trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load = problems....

Does anyone have any idea if the = firewall can=20 take the stresses of this road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not = know.... Moving=20 it ...one way or the other,   THANX    Jeff=20 Clough
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C34A54.866414C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 07:23:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:23:54 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity In-Reply-To: <001b01c34a97$9558ae80$17b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714231723.03b3cec0@mail.adelphia.net> At 10:08 PM 7/14/03 -0800, you wrote: >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of this > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or > the other, THANX Jeff Clough If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 miles without being able to go through an underpass. Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing attach points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle for the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the trailer sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're only 14' tall, not 20'. From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 07:35:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:35:18 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714231723.03b3cec0@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000b01c34a9b$47368ed0$17b070d1@jeffreyhome> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C34A58.33B281E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the = nose to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or = less isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in = the hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up = and the hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing = flying after 10 years! =20 >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long = as it=20 > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am = going=20 > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in = > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove = the=20 > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in = an=20 > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 = lumber=20 > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the = Velocity=20 > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the = > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of = this=20 > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way = or=20 > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough >=20 > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 = miles=20 > without being able to go through an underpass. >=20 > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing = attach=20 > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle = for=20 > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the = trailer=20 > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way = you're=20 > only 14' tall, not 20'. =20 > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C34A58.33B281E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good thoughts I may have to do=20 that ...thanx....but I think from the nose to the firewall (without = the=20 cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less isn't it?... I do not = know for=20 sure...all the manuals etc are in the hangar .   I have only=20 one or two days to get this thing loaded up and the hangar emptied = and to=20 get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying after 10=20 years!

>> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my = Velocity 173 RG=20 as long as it
> >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in=20 Alaska...soooooo...I am going
> >down to put it on trailer and = truck=20 it 3500 miles to my house here in
> >AK.......wide load and = all...I am=20 wondering...if I gut it and remove the
> >engine and mount if = I can=20 move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an
> >upright=20 position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber =
> >to=20 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity =
>=20 >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to = the=20
> >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load = problems....
>=20 >   Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the = stresses=20 of this
> > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... = Moving it=20 ...one way or
> > the other,   = THANX    Jeff=20 Clough
>
> If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is = hard,=20 imagine 3500 miles
> without being able to go through an=20 underpass.
>
> Make your box, but bolt it to one side of = the main=20 spar. The wing attach
> points are the second strongest = points on=20 the airplane. Make a cradle for
> the nose (attach to the = canard=20 attach points) and put it on the trailer
> sideways, nose forward = but=20 rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're
> only 14' = tall, not=20 20'.
> Visit = the=20 gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C34A58.33B281E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 07:46:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:46:06 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity In-Reply-To: <000b01c34a9b$47368ed0$17b070d1@jeffreyhome> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714231723.03b3cec0@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714234014.03b33ac0@mail.adelphia.net> The number I have in my sleep deprived head is 16 feet - if I'm wrong, nose up might be good way to go. I would have never thought of it. If you go that way, take advantage of the spar hard points to secure it for and aft, the leverage on the firewall from starting and stopping would be wicked. And, obviously, diagonal ties from the nose to the sides of the trailer. One thing to be careful of is lookie loos, that are so busy looking at the "rocket ship" on the trailer that they forget to drive. We always used to move airplanes at night just to avoid the curious truck drivers. Congrats on getting back to building! Too bad Oshkosh isn't on the way. :) At 10:35 PM 7/14/03 -0800, you wrote: >Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the nose >to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less >isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the >hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and the >hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying >after 10 years! > > > >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it > > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going > > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in > > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the > > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an > > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber > > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity > > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the > > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of > this > > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or > > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough > > > > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 miles > > without being able to go through an underpass. > > > > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing attach > > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle for > > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the trailer > > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're > > only 14' tall, not 20'. > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 08:20:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:20:38 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714231723.03b3cec0@mail.adelphia.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030714234014.03b33ac0@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000d01c34aa1$98174dc0$47b070d1@jeffreyhome> Hmmm all very good suggestions ...things to think about and figure out quickly when I arrive there..sideways may be the easiest way to travel, but most complicated to build cradle.... Any Velocitites in the Greeley CO area any longer? > The number I have in my sleep deprived head is 16 feet - if I'm wrong, nose > up might be good way to go. I would have never thought of it. > > If you go that way, take advantage of the spar hard points to secure it for > and aft, the leverage on the firewall from starting and stopping would be > wicked. And, obviously, diagonal ties from the nose to the sides of the > trailer. > > One thing to be careful of is lookie loos, that are so busy looking at the > "rocket ship" on the trailer that they forget to drive. We always used to > move airplanes at night just to avoid the curious truck drivers. > > Congrats on getting back to building! Too bad Oshkosh isn't on the way. :) > > > At 10:35 PM 7/14/03 -0800, you wrote: > >Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the nose > >to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less > >isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the > >hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and the > >hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying > >after 10 years! > > > > > > >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it > > > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going > > > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in > > > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the > > > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an > > > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber > > > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity > > > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the > > > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of > > this > > > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or > > > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough > > > > > > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 miles > > > without being able to go through an underpass. > > > > > > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing attach > > > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle for > > > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the trailer > > > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're > > > only 14' tall, not 20'. > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 12:56:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mark Means) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:56:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714231723.03b3cec0@mail.adelphia.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030714234014.03b33ac0@mail.adelphia.net> <000d01c34aa1$98174dc0$47b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <003901c34ac8$16984b60$09c16cd8@net> When I moved mine I made a "right triangle" out of glued and bolted 2"X12"'s, with the hypotenuse going from one set of outboard wing bolts to the other. This was done to cant the fuselage at about a 60 degree angle in a compromise between height and width for trailering. I also nailed/glued plywood gussets in the corner of the right angle. The "downhill" end of the long 2x12 has to extend beyond the strake some distance to so the leading edge of the strake does not hit the trailer. This distance can be figured out easily with a string and tape measure. I did not build any nose support but had an old futon (?) that I just laid it on and strapped it down good. You will find that the holes in the long 2x12 accepting the wing attach bolts need to be oversize as they are not parellel due to wing sweep. We strapped this thing down as described and it was legal and made it unscathed much to everyone's surprise. If done with care this could work for you I suppose. We only had to go 10 miles not 3500. I called the police about wire/overpass clearance and I am not exactly sure but it seems like it was around 14' 10" (don't quote me on this). In your previous post is doesn't seem like you were factoring in the height of the trailer itself which will be 1 to 2 feet. Another option is Dan Fast who moves these things as a business in an enclosed trailer (772-473-6090). You might want to call him and avoid at least some of the hassle. Mark Means ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Clough" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:20 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity > Hmmm all very good suggestions ...things to think about and figure out > quickly when I arrive there..sideways may be the easiest way to travel, but > most complicated to build cradle.... Any Velocitites in the Greeley CO area > any longer? > > > > The number I have in my sleep deprived head is 16 feet - if I'm wrong, > nose > > up might be good way to go. I would have never thought of it. > > > > If you go that way, take advantage of the spar hard points to secure it > for > > and aft, the leverage on the firewall from starting and stopping would be > > wicked. And, obviously, diagonal ties from the nose to the sides of the > > trailer. > > > > One thing to be careful of is lookie loos, that are so busy looking at the > > "rocket ship" on the trailer that they forget to drive. We always used to > > move airplanes at night just to avoid the curious truck drivers. > > > > Congrats on getting back to building! Too bad Oshkosh isn't on the way. > :) > > > > > > At 10:35 PM 7/14/03 -0800, you wrote: > > >Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the nose > > >to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less > > >isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the > > >hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and > the > > >hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying > > >after 10 years! > > > > > > > > > >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long > as it > > > > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am > going > > > > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in > > > > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove > the > > > > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in > an > > > > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 > lumber > > > > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the > Velocity > > > > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the > > > > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > > > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of > > > this > > > > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way > or > > > > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough > > > > > > > > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 > miles > > > > without being able to go through an underpass. > > > > > > > > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing > attach > > > > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle > for > > > > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the > trailer > > > > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way > you're > > > > only 14' tall, not 20'. > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 13:15:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:15:24 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714231723.03b3cec0@mail.adelphia.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030714234014.03b33ac0@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <002201c34aca$c5038fa0$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> The width of the strakes is 12.5 inches, if you set the plane at an angle in a flatbed you can reduce the effective width to 9 - 10 inches. Problem is when the flat brakes, you can solve this problem by running a line from the wing attach hard point bushing to the flatbed. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:46 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity > The number I have in my sleep deprived head is 16 feet - if I'm wrong, nose > up might be good way to go. I would have never thought of it. > > If you go that way, take advantage of the spar hard points to secure it for > and aft, the leverage on the firewall from starting and stopping would be > wicked. And, obviously, diagonal ties from the nose to the sides of the > trailer. > > One thing to be careful of is lookie loos, that are so busy looking at the > "rocket ship" on the trailer that they forget to drive. We always used to > move airplanes at night just to avoid the curious truck drivers. > > Congrats on getting back to building! Too bad Oshkosh isn't on the way. :) > > > At 10:35 PM 7/14/03 -0800, you wrote: > >Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the nose > >to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less > >isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the > >hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and the > >hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying > >after 10 years! > > > > > > >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it > > > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going > > > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in > > > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the > > > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an > > > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber > > > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity > > > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the > > > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of > > this > > > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or > > > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough > > > > > > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 miles > > > without being able to go through an underpass. > > > > > > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing attach > > > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle for > > > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the trailer > > > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're > > > only 14' tall, not 20'. > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 13:20:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:20:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: <20030715002131.14968.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004401c34acb$6aa32880$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> John, I ma interested in the newsletter please forward me the address. Fred N244FM ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Overman" To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 8:21 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > --- Jerry.Brainard@anthem.com wrote: > > > > Scott, > > > > Thanks for the exposition of your views of the > > Velocity Views (V V). > > > > In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, V V > > provides a good value. > > > I know this subject has been beat to death over the > past months, and I for one find value in the "views" > and intend to continue subscribing. > However, on another note I would hope that every > owner of a velocity is a member (subscriber)of the > Central States Association. Terry Schubert has > published the newsletter since its inception and he > does a fabulous job. If I had to choose between it and > the velocity views I would keep the CSA. It is for all > canard people, is printed on cheap paper every issue > has very informative articles concerning canard > planes and their modification and upkeep. The last > issue was 32 pages. Annual subscription is I've > forgotten but I think somewhere around $20. > If anyone is interested e-mail me and I'll send you > his address. I'm not connected with CSA except as a > member subscriber. > > > John > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 14:21:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:21:55 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity In-Reply-To: <001b01c34a97$9558ae80$17b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_JBkYctxTD8zPI9O0blrang) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jeff, If the firewall can not withstand the loads imposed by the weight of the aircraft, plus the inertial loads caused by the movement of the trailer, and a reasonable amount of wind loading. then it should be re-designed- but from my guestimation, it is by far the strongest area of the aircraft, just make sure that you use grade 8 fasteners to attach it to the trailer, and a few tie down straps should help too- one thing though- about the short platform for the firewall to sit on, since the center spar outboard sections trail the firewall by I am guessing 8-10 inches or so, but keep in mind that there will be some good loading on this platform, so build it robustly-, and make it as large as possible so that the load will be transferred to the fuselage without long spans of the firewall to support the load. -I would build a box from 2x10s, and 3/4 plywood and use glue and screws (not nails) to hold it together... I thought about moving it that way too actually, but I didn't have that far to go to get to my hanger (about 3,490 miles less than you have) so it wasn't worth the extra hassle for me- I just moved during the early morning to avoid traffic and the cops..... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:09 AM To: reflector@awpi.com Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of this road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or the other, THANX Jeff Clough --Boundary_(ID_JBkYctxTD8zPI9O0blrang) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Jeff,

If the firewall can not withstand the loads imposed by the weight of the aircraft, plus the inertial loads caused by the movement of the trailer, and a reasonable amount of wind loading. then it should be re-designed-      but from my guestimation, it is by far the strongest area of the aircraft, just make sure that you use grade 8 fasteners to attach it to the trailer, and a few tie down straps should help too- one thing though- about the short platform for the firewall to sit on, since the center spar outboard sections trail the firewall by I am guessing 8-10 inches or so, but keep in mind that there will be some good loading on this platform, so build it robustly-, and make it as large as possible so that the load will be transferred to the fuselage without long spans of the firewall to support the load. -I would build a box from 2x10s, and 3/4 plywood and use glue and screws (not nails) to hold it together... I thought about moving it that way too actually, but I didn't have that far to go to get to my hanger (about 3,490 miles less than you have) so it wasn't worth the extra hassle for me- I just moved during the early morning to avoid traffic and the cops.....

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:09 AM
To: reflector@awpi.com
Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity

Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems....

Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of this road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or the other,   THANX    Jeff Clough
--Boundary_(ID_JBkYctxTD8zPI9O0blrang)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 14:09:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:09:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity References: <001b01c34a97$9558ae80$17b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <3F13FD1F.59C039D1@dixie-net.com> --------------4AC4C1E8D839C321D17C671F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff, Two years ago I sold a kit with spar attached. The buyer was concerned about the width, but when he contacted authorities, it turned out that moving a wide load was not a big deal. John Jeffrey Clough wrote: > Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as > it is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am > going down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house > here in AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and > remove the engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the > launch pad in an upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' > out of 2x10 lumber to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and > setting the Velocity fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' > and gear down to the trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load > problems.... Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the > stresses of this road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... > Moving it ...one way or the other, THANX Jeff Clough --------------4AC4C1E8D839C321D17C671F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff,
Two years ago I sold a kit with spar attached. The buyer was concerned about the width, but when he contacted authorities, it turned out that moving a wide load was not a big deal.
John
Jeffrey Clough wrote:
Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of this road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or the other,   THANX    Jeff Clough
--------------4AC4C1E8D839C321D17C671F-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 14:19:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:19:03 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: <01e401c34a94$2e5a7040$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <3F13FF47.79353258@dixie-net.com> Greg, Nicely put. I agree and have emailed Duane. John Greg Poole wrote: > Jerry, > > There are others out here - particularly in distant countries that share > Scott's base analysis of VV content and putting VV out only via the printed > medium............ From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 14:32:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:32:16 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity Message-ID: There is one flying out of your airport. John Sauer. In the old round hangar. -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Clough [mailto:jclough@alaska.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:21 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity Hmmm all very good suggestions ...things to think about and figure out quickly when I arrive there..sideways may be the easiest way to travel, but most complicated to build cradle.... Any Velocitites in the Greeley CO area any longer? > The number I have in my sleep deprived head is 16 feet - if I'm wrong, nose > up might be good way to go. I would have never thought of it. > > If you go that way, take advantage of the spar hard points to secure it for > and aft, the leverage on the firewall from starting and stopping would be > wicked. And, obviously, diagonal ties from the nose to the sides of the > trailer. > > One thing to be careful of is lookie loos, that are so busy looking at the > "rocket ship" on the trailer that they forget to drive. We always used to > move airplanes at night just to avoid the curious truck drivers. > > Congrats on getting back to building! Too bad Oshkosh isn't on the way. :) > > > At 10:35 PM 7/14/03 -0800, you wrote: > >Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the nose > >to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less > >isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the > >hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and the > >hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying > >after 10 years! > > > > > > >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it > > > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going > > > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in > > > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the > > > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an > > > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber > > > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity > > > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the > > > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of > > this > > > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one way or > > > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough > > > > > > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 miles > > > without being able to go through an underpass. > > > > > > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing attach > > > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle for > > > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the trailer > > > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're > > > only 14' tall, not 20'. > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 14:46:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:46:23 -0600 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion References: <000801c34a8a$45cd98b0$aa23a2d9@ah1> Message-ID: <3F1405AF.5030508@tnstaafl.net> All those exhaust tubes should be wrapped. And of course all your fuel and oil lines fire sleeved, right? THe more complicated the exhaust system the more failure points and failure modes there are. Scott Alfons Hubmann wrote: > Milt > We have very strong regulations under Far 23 in most countries of > Europe: > > One of them is noise-level. Therefore we have to install sophisticated > exhaust-systems with silencers. > This means, you have glowing steel tubes in the engine compartment. > It must be a very highquality steel to ensure it does not get damages by > corrosion to quick. > These glowing tubes are very close to the fuel system as well. > > Aircraft which are not complying with the noise limits are grounded. > And this law will be enforced very soon even more than up to now. > > Can you imagine? > > Yours, > Alfons > > > > > > Alfons Hubmann - Treuhandpraxis STV /HFW - Wirtschaftsinformatik - > Consulting > > Tel: +4131 901 22 66 > Fax: +4131 901 11 40 > Mob: +4179 344 83 83 > > Sternengasschen 1 > Postfach 6620 > CH-3001 Bern > > www.hubmann.ch > > > > <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > <[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Milton Mersky > < > < > < > < > <_______________________________________________ > < > < > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 15:35:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:35:58 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity In-Reply-To: <000b01c34a9b$47368ed0$17b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <000001c34ade$685ce760$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34AA3.BBFE0F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Firewall to nose is very close to 12 ft; the sweep-back of the strakes adds about 6=94. Add height of trailer; then see if you can find info = on lowest overpass on your route. =20 These numbers are for a std elite, but I believe are the same for the 173: could be your spar is a bit wider. Width of wing spar is 11=92 9=94, so setting vertically on edge gains = about 9=94. Setting at a 45 degree angle give you about 8 =BD=92 high and = wide. 69 degrees from horizontal cuts the width in half. Limits may vary place to place, but 105=94 (8=92 9=94) wide comes to mind; is that right? =20 Considering the possibility of moving my airframe (Southern Cal.) a while back I checked with Caltrans, Highway patrol, sheriff, etc; and got transferred around a lot and got conflicting information. Finally a highway patrol officer told me =91put it on a trailer, go early Sunday morning, stay off the main roads as much as you can=92. Seemed like a good approach to me. Of course this was for a local 15 mile trip. 3500 miles across state lines and two countries probably requires more planning. =20 Al =20 =20 Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the nose to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and the hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying after 10 years! =20 =20 =20 >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long as it=20 > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going=20 > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the=20 > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an=20 > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber=20 > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity=20 > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of this=20 > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ..one way or=20 > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough >=20 > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 miles=20 > without being able to go through an underpass. >=20 > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing attach=20 > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle for=20 > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the trailer=20 > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're=20 > only 14' tall, not 20'. =20 > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34AA3.BBFE0F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Firewall to nose is very close to = 12 ft; the sweep-back of the strakes adds about 6”.=A0 Add height of = trailer; then see if you can find info on lowest overpass on your = route.

These numbers are for a std = elite, but I believe are the same for the 173: could be your spar is a bit = wider.

Width of wing spar is 11’ = 9”, so setting vertically on edge gains about 9”.=A0 Setting at a 45 = degree angle give you about 8 =BD’ high and wide.=A0 69 degrees from = horizontal cuts the width in half.=A0 Limits may vary place to place, but 105” = (8’ 9”) wide comes to mind; is that right?

Considering the possibility of = moving my airframe (Southern = Cal.) a while back I checked with Caltrans, Highway patrol, = sheriff, etc; and got transferred around a lot and got conflicting = information.=A0 Finally a highway patrol officer told me =A0‘put it on a trailer, go early = Sunday morning, stay off the main roads as much as you can’.=A0 Seemed = like a good approach to me.=A0 Of course this was for a local 15 mile trip. =A03500 = miles across state lines and two countries probably requires more = planning.

Al

Good = thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from = the nose to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less = isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the = hangar .   I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded = up and the hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing = flying after 10 years!

>> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my = Velocity 173 RG as long as it
> = >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going =
> = >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here in =
> >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove = the
> = >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad in an =
> = >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber =
> = >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the Velocity =
> = >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the =
> = >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load = problems....
> >   Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of this
> = > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ..one way or =
> = > the other,   THANX    Jeff = Clough
> =
> If = you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 miles =
> = without being able to go through an underpass.
> =
> = Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing attach =
> = points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a cradle for =
> the = nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the trailer =
> = sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're =
> = only 14' tall, not 20'.
> = Visit the gallery! = tvbf:jamaicangoose

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34AA3.BBFE0F60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 15:45:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:45:01 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: <004401c34acb$6aa32880$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Message-ID: <000501c34adf$abc17290$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C34AA4.FF629A90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW; this is my response to Duane Duane; I appreciate your dilemma, perhaps some of which is generated by you = being too close to the issue and involved in its history. My thinking is that = the matter isn't that complicated. It may not fit the options you = delineated, but here is my opinion. As supplier of these kits, Velocity has a responsibility to provide the owners of the kits (airplanes) any information that it believes relevant = to safety and performance issues. And I say 'responsibility' not in the = sense of legal implications (although there may be some), but just from the standpoint of good business practice. It enhances the reputation of = your company and the airplane; maintains a sense of loyalty and goodwill = among the owners. Providing this information in a plain vanilla format, four to six times = a year does not need to be a costly undertaking, and obviously can be (is) built into the price of the products you sell. I include 'is' because certainly a significant part of the cost of providing this information = is already being incurred - the man-hours of time spent by you and other employees in generating the information included in the Views. Publication of safety and performance information, and whatever other information you chose to provide as general interest regarding = construction tips, maintenance suggestions; and promotional information for your = product, should be approached primarily as electronic media. Certainly the = majority of owners currently have e-mail or will be getting it. Once a bulk = e-mail list is generated, dissemination is simple and costs nothing. For those = who must get it by regular mail (and you can use whatever measures you deem appropriate to encourage changing to e-mail, perhaps at some point a = small fee) just a plain paper copy in a bulk mail format. It is the owner's responsibility to maintain a correct address with Velocity. You send it to the address of record. As far as Rick Lavoie's Newsletter is concerned, I like it and have = always subscribed. But, unless you decide to contract with him to provide the information, it has to stand on its own. He will get the same = information you provide to all the owners. If he can incorporate that into a = somewhat polished newsletter that has other information of interest, and some advertising, and whatever, and continue that as a "product"; that's his decision. A sort of "forced" subscription to a periodical that also generates some advertising revenue in order to get relevant information = on your product is; well, I think - inappropriate. Best wishes, Al Gietzen ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C34AA4.FF629A90 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IgEOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHBwAPAAgALQAAAAIAJwEB A5AGABwSAAAtAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAmAAAAU2NvdHQncyBxdWVzdGlvbiAiVlYgaXMgaXQgd29ydGggaXQ/IgAAAAIB cQABAAAAFgAAAAHDSt+rT0nPwo+c60I9keLYzGfsoq8AAAIBHQwBAAAAGAAAAFNNVFA6QUxWRU5U VVJFU0BNU04uQ09NAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgDmjQzoSsMBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAPMG/D9T0xBM ux1mXQc3eLfCgAAAAwAUDgAAAAALAB8OAQAAAB4AKA4BAAAAIAAAADAwMDAwMDA2AWFsdmVudHVy ZXNAbXNuLmNvbQFNU04AHgApDgEAAAAgAAAAMDAwMDAwMDYBYWx2ZW50dXJlc0Btc24uY29tAU1T TgACAQkQAQAAAC0NAAApDQAA5BoAAExaRnWhwNBrAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUaMgxgYwBQAQRzdHPiaAVw YmNoDvUJAA+HZmgN4A+WYmkBQwtgbpEOEDAzMxGmZmUSIj8B9wKkA2MCAA+ACsBzZUJ0AtFwcnEy 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I suggest a group of those living in Europe go to Sebastian & work out the interior design of the cowl to prevent this from ever occurring again. Not one of you should ever take to the air with your present cowl & stack system. Milt Alfons Hubmann wrote: >Milt >We have very strong regulations under Far 23 in most countries of >Europe: > >One of them is noise-level. Therefore we have to install sophisticated >exhaust-systems with silencers. >This means, you have glowing steel tubes in the engine compartment. >It must be a very highquality steel to ensure it does not get damages by >corrosion to quick. >These glowing tubes are very close to the fuel system as well. > >Aircraft which are not complying with the noise limits are grounded. >And this law will be enforced very soon even more than up to now. > >Can you imagine? > >Yours, >Alfons > > > > > >Alfons Hubmann - Treuhandpraxis STV /HFW - Wirtschaftsinformatik - >Consulting > >Tel: +4131 901 22 66 >Fax: +4131 901 11 40 >Mob: +4179 344 83 83 > >Sternengasschen 1 >Postfach 6620 >CH-3001 Bern > >www.hubmann.ch > > > ><-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- ><[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Milton Mersky >< >< >< >< ><_______________________________________________ >< >< > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 16:08:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Overman) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: <004401c34acb$6aa32880$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Message-ID: <20030715150832.42176.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Marconi wrote: > John, > > I ma interested in the newsletter please forward me > the address. > > Fred > N244FM > Central States Newsleter Terry Schubert 9283 Lindbergh Blvd. Olmstead Falls, OH 44138-2407 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Overman" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it > worth it?" > > > > --- Jerry.Brainard@anthem.com wrote: > > > > > > Scott, > > > > > > Thanks for the exposition of your views of the > > > Velocity Views (V V). > > > > > > In my opinion, at the current subscription cost, > V V > > > provides a good value. > > > > > > I know this subject has been beat to death over > the > > past months, and I for one find value in the > "views" > > and intend to continue subscribing. > > However, on another note I would hope that > every > > owner of a velocity is a member (subscriber)of the > > Central States Association. Terry Schubert has > > published the newsletter since its inception and > he > > does a fabulous job. If I had to choose between it > and > > the velocity views I would keep the CSA. It is for > all > > canard people, is printed on cheap paper every > issue > > has very informative articles concerning canard > > planes and their modification and upkeep. The last > > issue was 32 pages. Annual subscription is I've > > forgotten but I think somewhere around $20. > > If anyone is interested e-mail me and I'll send > you > > his address. I'm not connected with CSA except as > a > > member subscriber. > > > > > > John > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 16:16:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:16:19 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F141AC3.62A14D63@dixie-net.com> I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He says I should not expect my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. John steve korney wrote: > John... > > In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of about 1250 > to 1300 (f) on take-off... > Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it out...Keep > the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the > fuel and it will foul your plugs... > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 17:09:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:09:21 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F141AC3.62A14D63@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F142731.6060706@tnstaafl.net> This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. Its the trend that is of prime importance. Scott John Dibble wrote: > I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He says I should not expect > my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > > John > > steve korney wrote: > > >>John... >> >>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of about 1250 >>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it out...Keep >>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the >>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >> >>Best... Steve >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 17:13:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:13:29 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: <000501c34adf$abc17290$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <002c01c34aec$07eb1510$0300a8c0@DAD> Just wanted to remind everyone that all KPC's (historical and current) are available on the Velocity web site - so this shouldn't enter the argument (of purchasing the Views only because of KPC information) as things go forward. SB ----- Original Message ----- From: "alventures" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:45 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" ... As supplier of these kits, Velocity has a responsibility to provide the owners of the kits (airplanes) any information that it believes relevant to safety and performance issues. And I say 'responsibility' not in the sense of legal implications (although there may be some), but just from the standpoint of good business practice. It enhances the reputation of your company and the airplane; maintains a sense of loyalty and goodwill among the owners... From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 17:45:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:45:36 +0200 Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion In-Reply-To: <3F1405AF.5030508@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <006a01c34af0$844f45a0$aa23a2d9@ah1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C34B01.47D815A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes Scott, you are so right! Best, Alfons <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Milt <> We have very strong regulations under Far 23 in most countries of <> Europe: <> <> One of them is noise-level. Therefore we have to install exhaust-systems with silencers. <> This means, you have glowing steel tubes in the engine compartment. <> It must be a very highquality steel to ensure it does not corrosion to quick. <> These glowing tubes are very close to the fuel system as well. <> <> Aircraft which are not complying with the noise limits are grounded. <> And this law will be enforced very soon even more than up to now. <> <> Can you imagine? <> <> Yours, <> Alfons <> <> <> <> <> <> Alfons Hubmann - Treuhandpraxis STV /HFW - Wirtschaftsinformatik - <> Consulting <> <> Tel: +4131 901 22 66 <> Fax: +4131 901 11 40 <> Mob: +4179 344 83 83 <> <> Sternengasschen 1 <> Postfach 6620 <> CH-3001 Bern <> <> www.hubmann.ch <> <> <> <> <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- <> <[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Milton Mersky <> < <> < <> < <> < <> <_______________________________________________ <> < <> < <> <> <> _______________________________________________ <> To change your email address, visit <> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector <> <> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose <> < < <_______________________________________________ Message-ID: Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic inches, and are rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high valve overlap. There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > > Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > Its the trend that is of prime importance. > > Scott > > John Dibble wrote: > > I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > says I should not expect > > my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > > > > John > > > > steve korney wrote: > > > > > >>John... > >> > >>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > about 1250 > >>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > >>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > out...Keep > >>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the > >>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > >> > >>Best... Steve > >> > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 18:38:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:38:56 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <008901c34af7$f7dae040$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Brian, That makes sense. That also explains the rough idle, sort of like a hot cam from a Corvette - lots of exhaust and intake valve overlap which allows some of the intake air to go out the exhaust valve at low rpms. And might contribute to rough mag checks at lower rpms. And that would lower the EGT's at lower rpms. But shouldn't make much difference at static or cruise rpms - right? Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Michalk" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic inches, and are | rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming | 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. | The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high valve overlap. | There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing | volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Scott Derrick | > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | > | > | > This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal | > mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its | > in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. | > | > Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really | > of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the | > exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. | > Its the trend that is of prime importance. | > | > Scott | > | > John Dibble wrote: | > > I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He | > says I should not expect | > > my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. | > > | > > John | > > | > > steve korney wrote: | > > | > > | > >>John... | > >> | > >>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of | > about 1250 | > >>to 1300 (f) on take-off... | > >>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it | > out...Keep | > >>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the | > >>fuel and it will foul your plugs... | > >> | > >>Best... Steve | > >> | > >>_________________________________________________________________ | > >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. | > >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail | > >> | > >>_______________________________________________ | > >>To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > >> | > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > > | > > | > > | > > _______________________________________________ | > > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > > | > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 18:46:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:46:42 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Speaking of moving... Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34AF9.0D6A83AB" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34AF9.0D6A83AB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My project is getting close to moving from a garage to the airport. =20 My thinking is roll the fuselage onto a flatbed people use to transport race cars, tie it down good and drive it down to the airport. The airport is about 20 miles away. =20 I could take the freeway most of the way, or I can go entirely on the surface road. Both has pros and cons. =20 Interstate: * Smoother rides * Constant speeds * Shorter transit times * More speed =3D=3D dynamic aerodynamic force * Encounters with heavies (18 wheelers, etc) * State patrolled. =20 Surface Roads: * Bumpier and irregular rides * Many starts and stops * Less large vehicles * Municipally patrolled * Less dynamic stress * Longer transit times =20 Are there opinions on what works better for doing this? Obviously, I will be doing this in the wee hours of the morning when traffic is less of a factor. With the Strake about 11ft wide, I am guessing I would need a wide load permit. Would that be the cities that are involved (3-4 of them)? Or the state DoT? =20 Would it be better to load it tail forward? (Will not try to take off?) or nose first (Less chance for the center section spar to snag something?) Canard off or not? =20 Any tips or tricks? =20 Hiroo =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34AF9.0D6A83AB Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My project is getting close to moving from a garage = to the airport.

My thinking is roll the fuselage onto a flatbed = people use to transport race cars, tie it down good and drive it down to the = airport. The airport is about 20 miles away.

I could take the freeway most of the way, or I can go entirely on the surface road. Both has pros and = cons.

Interstate:

Smoother rides

Constant speeds

Shorter transit times

More speed =3D=3D dynamic aerodynamic = force

Encounters with heavies (18 wheelers, = etc)

State patrolled.

Surface Roads:

Bumpier and irregular rides

Many starts and stops

Less large vehicles

Municipally patrolled

Less dynamic stress

Longer transit times

Are there opinions on what works better for doing = this? Obviously, I will be doing this in the wee hours of the morning when traffic is = less of a factor. With the Strake about 11ft wide, I am guessing I would = need a wide load permit. Would that be the cities that are involved (3-4 = of them)? Or the state DoT?

Would it be better to load it tail forward? (Will not = try to take off?) or nose first (Less chance for the center section spar to = snag something?) Canard off or not?

Any tips or tricks?

Hiroo

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34AF9.0D6A83AB-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 18:54:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:54:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh References: Message-ID: <009101c34afa$2750ec00$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I am considering flying my new 173 Elite RG to Oshkosh this year and camping out. As I recall (its been a couple of years since I went to Oshkosh), there is Canard parking near the forum area? Where would I camp if I parked my plane there? I have flown to Oshkosh several times in a 172 and camped out in the North 40 under the wings, but I'm not familar with the situation if I park my Velocity in the Canard only area. THANKS Ronnie Brown From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 18:54:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:54:55 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030714231723.03b3cec0@mail.adelphia.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030714234014.03b33ac0@mail.adelphia.net> <000d01c34aa1$98174dc0$47b070d1@jeffreyhome> <003901c34ac8$16984b60$09c16cd8@net> Message-ID: <001a01c34afa$3475ca40$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> When Velocity ships fuselages with the strakes completed that's what they do, the fuselage is in a steep bank to one side but horizontal. Then they add packing and straps to hold it in place. Good luck. Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Means" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:56 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity > When I moved mine I made a "right triangle" out of glued and bolted > 2"X12"'s, with the hypotenuse going from one set of outboard wing bolts to > the other. This was done to cant the fuselage at about a 60 degree angle in > a compromise between height and width for trailering. I also nailed/glued > plywood gussets in the corner of the right angle. > > The "downhill" end of the long 2x12 has to extend beyond the strake some > distance to so the leading edge of the strake does not hit the trailer. This > distance can be figured out easily with a string and tape measure. I did not > build any nose support but had an old futon (?) that I just laid it on and > strapped it down good. You will find that the holes in the long 2x12 > accepting the wing attach bolts need to be oversize as they are not parellel > due to wing sweep. We strapped this thing down as described and it was legal > and made it unscathed much to everyone's surprise. If done with care this > could work for you I suppose. We only had to go 10 miles not 3500. > > I called the police about wire/overpass clearance and I am not exactly sure > but it seems like it was around 14' 10" (don't quote me on this). In your > previous post is doesn't seem like you were factoring in the height of the > trailer itself which will be 1 to 2 feet. > > Another option is Dan Fast who moves these things as a business in an > enclosed trailer (772-473-6090). You might want to call him and avoid at > least some of the hassle. > > Mark Means > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeffrey Clough" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:20 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity > > > > Hmmm all very good suggestions ...things to think about and figure out > > quickly when I arrive there..sideways may be the easiest way to travel, > but > > most complicated to build cradle.... Any Velocitites in the Greeley CO > area > > any longer? > > > > > > > The number I have in my sleep deprived head is 16 feet - if I'm wrong, > > nose > > > up might be good way to go. I would have never thought of it. > > > > > > If you go that way, take advantage of the spar hard points to secure it > > for > > > and aft, the leverage on the firewall from starting and stopping would > be > > > wicked. And, obviously, diagonal ties from the nose to the sides of the > > > trailer. > > > > > > One thing to be careful of is lookie loos, that are so busy looking at > the > > > "rocket ship" on the trailer that they forget to drive. We always used > to > > > move airplanes at night just to avoid the curious truck drivers. > > > > > > Congrats on getting back to building! Too bad Oshkosh isn't on the way. > > :) > > > > > > > > > At 10:35 PM 7/14/03 -0800, you wrote: > > > >Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the > nose > > > >to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less > > > >isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the > > > >hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and > > the > > > >hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying > > > >after 10 years! > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long > > as it > > > > > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am > > going > > > > > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here > in > > > > > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and > remove > > the > > > > > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad > in > > an > > > > > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 > > lumber > > > > > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the > > Velocity > > > > > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to > the > > > > > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > > > > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses > of > > > > this > > > > > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ...one > way > > or > > > > > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough > > > > > > > > > > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 > > miles > > > > > without being able to go through an underpass. > > > > > > > > > > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing > > attach > > > > > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a > cradle > > for > > > > > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the > > trailer > > > > > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way > > you're > > > > > only 14' tall, not 20'. > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 19:01:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:01:30 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity References: <000001c34ade$685ce760$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <002c01c34afb$203fe190$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C34AC0.725E6130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just went to the garage and measured my Std FG which I think is the same = fuselage as the 173, it's 12 feet firewall to nose - maybe an inch or = two longer difficult to tell exactly. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alventures=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:35 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Moving the non-flying Velocity Firewall to nose is very close to 12 ft; the sweep-back of the strakes = adds about 6". Add height of trailer; then see if you can find info on = lowest overpass on your route. These numbers are for a std elite, but I believe are the same for the = 173: could be your spar is a bit wider. Width of wing spar is 11' 9", so setting vertically on edge gains = about 9". Setting at a 45 degree angle give you about 8 =BD' high and = wide. 69 degrees from horizontal cuts the width in half. Limits may = vary place to place, but 105" (8' 9") wide comes to mind; is that right? Considering the possibility of moving my airframe (Southern Cal.) a = while back I checked with Caltrans, Highway patrol, sheriff, etc; and = got transferred around a lot and got conflicting information. Finally a = highway patrol officer told me 'put it on a trailer, go early Sunday = morning, stay off the main roads as much as you can'. Seemed like a = good approach to me. Of course this was for a local 15 mile trip. 3500 = miles across state lines and two countries probably requires more = planning. Al Good thoughts I may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the = nose to the firewall (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or = less isn't it?... I do not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in = the hangar . I have only one or two days to get this thing loaded up = and the hangar emptied and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing = flying after 10 years! =20 >> >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long = as it=20 > >is in a hangar in Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am = going=20 > >down to put it on trailer and truck it 3500 miles to my house here = in=20 > >AK.......wide load and all...I am wondering...if I gut it and = remove the=20 > >engine and mount if I can move it like a rocket on the launch pad = in an=20 > >upright position.....was thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 = lumber=20 > >to 'mount' on the firewall engine mount holes and setting the = Velocity=20 > >fuselage upright on that and strapping the 'box' and gear down to = the=20 > >trailer for the long haul..thus no wide load problems.... > > Does anyone have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses = of this=20 > > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but do not know.... Moving it ..one = way or=20 > > the other, THANX Jeff Clough >=20 > If you think making 3500 miles as a wide load is hard, imagine 3500 = miles=20 > without being able to go through an underpass. >=20 > Make your box, but bolt it to one side of the main spar. The wing = attach=20 > points are the second strongest points on the airplane. Make a = cradle for=20 > the nose (attach to the canard attach points) and put it on the = trailer=20 > sideways, nose forward but rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way = you're=20 > only 14' tall, not 20'. =20 > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C34AC0.725E6130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just went to the garage and measured my = Std FG=20 which I think is the same fuselage as the 173, it's 12 feet firewall to = nose -=20 maybe an inch or two longer difficult to tell exactly.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 alventures=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 = 7:35=20 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Moving = the=20 non-flying Velocity

Firewall = to nose is=20 very close to 12 ft; the sweep-back of the strakes adds about = 6”. Add=20 height of trailer; then see if you can find info on lowest overpass on = your=20 route.

These = numbers are=20 for a std elite, but I believe are the same for the 173: could be your = spar is=20 a bit wider.

Width of = wing spar=20 is 11’ 9”, so setting vertically on edge gains about = 9”. Setting at a 45=20 degree angle give you about 8 =BD’ high and wide. 69 = degrees from=20 horizontal cuts the width in half. Limits may vary place to = place, but=20 105” (8’ 9”) wide comes to mind; is that = right?

Considering the=20 possibility of moving my airframe (Southern=20 Cal.) a while = back I=20 checked with Caltrans, Highway patrol, sheriff, etc; and got = transferred=20 around a lot and got conflicting information. Finally a highway = patrol=20 officer told me ‘put it on a trailer, go early Sunday = morning, stay off=20 the main roads as much as you can’. Seemed like a good = approach to=20 me. Of course this was for a local 15 mile trip. 3500 = miles across=20 state lines and two countries probably requires more=20 planning.

Al

Good=20 thoughts I=20 may have to do that ...thanx....but I think from the nose to the = firewall=20 (without the cowling) is only about 13 feet(?) or less isn't = it?... I do=20 not know for sure...all the manuals etc are in the hangar = .   I have=20 only one or two days to get this thing loaded up and the hangar = emptied=20 and to get on the road ...Ready to get this thing flying after 10=20 years!

>> = >Ok...I give up....I will never complete my Velocity 173 RG as long = as it=20
> >is in a = hangar in=20 Colorado and I live in Alaska...soooooo...I am going=20
> >down to put it on trailer and = truck it=20 3500 miles to my house here in =
> >AK.......wide = load and=20 all...I am wondering...if I gut it and remove the=20
> >engine and mount if I can move = it like a=20 rocket on the launch pad in an =
> >upright = position.....was=20 thinking of building a 'box' out of 2x10 lumber=20
> >to 'mount' on the firewall = engine mount=20 holes and setting the Velocity =
> >fuselage = upright on that=20 and strapping the 'box' and gear down to the=20
> >trailer for the long haul..thus = no wide=20 load problems....
> >   = Does anyone=20 have any idea if the firewall can take the stresses of this=20
> > road trip? I BELIEVE it can but = do not=20 know.... Moving it ..one way or=20
> > the other,  =20 THANX    Jeff=20 Clough
>=20
> If you think making 3500 miles as a = wide load=20 is hard, imagine 3500 miles =
> without being = able to go=20 through an underpass.
>=20
> Make your box, but bolt it to one = side of the=20 main spar. The wing attach=20
> points are the second strongest = points on the=20 airplane. Make a cradle for=20
> the nose (attach to the canard = attach points)=20 and put it on the trailer =
> sideways, nose = forward but=20 rolled 90 degrees to the side. That way you're=20
> only 14' tall, not 20'.  =20
> Visit the gallery! =20 = tvbf:jamaicangoose
=
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C34AC0.725E6130-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 19:07:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:07:53 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Speaking of moving... References: Message-ID: <009b01c34afc$03b03740$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C34ADA.7BD52CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suggest the lesser traveled roads. I used a flat bed trailer similar = to what you are talking about. =20 My first trip was to carry the fuselage, nose first with the canard = under the fuselage. Then the 2nd trip we carried the wings. Here in NC, I had to get a $12 permit from the state DOT for the wider = than 8'-6" load. It was good for 10 days in case of rain, etc. I had to = have a "Wide Load" banner on the front of my pickup and rear of the = trailer and red flags on the ends of the strake. =20 See http://home.sprintmail.com/~rolandbrown/page60.html I had an escort vehicle in front by 100' or so with flashers going to = get folks awake before meeting the wider load behind. All went well. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hiroo Umeno=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:46 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Speaking of moving... My project is getting close to moving from a garage to the airport. My thinking is roll the fuselage onto a flatbed people use to = transport race cars, tie it down good and drive it down to the airport. = The airport is about 20 miles away. I could take the freeway most of the way, or I can go entirely on the = surface road. Both has pros and cons. Interstate: a.. Smoother rides=20 b.. Constant speeds=20 c.. Shorter transit times=20 d.. More speed =3D=3D dynamic aerodynamic force=20 e.. Encounters with heavies (18 wheelers, etc)=20 f.. State patrolled.=20 Surface Roads: a.. Bumpier and irregular rides=20 b.. Many starts and stops=20 c.. Less large vehicles=20 d.. Municipally patrolled=20 e.. Less dynamic stress=20 f.. Longer transit times=20 Are there opinions on what works better for doing this? Obviously, I = will be doing this in the wee hours of the morning when traffic is less = of a factor. With the Strake about 11ft wide, I am guessing I would = need a wide load permit. Would that be the cities that are involved = (3-4 of them)? Or the state DoT? Would it be better to load it tail forward? (Will not try to take = off?) or nose first (Less chance for the center section spar to snag = something?) Canard off or not? Any tips or tricks? Hiroo ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C34ADA.7BD52CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I suggest the lesser traveled roads. I used a = flat bed=20 trailer similar to what you are talking about.

My first trip was to carry the fuselage, nose first = with the=20 canard under the fuselage. Then the 2nd trip we carried the=20 wings.

Here in NC, I had to get a $12 permit from the state = DOT for=20 the wider than 8'-6" load. It was good for 10 days in case of = rain, etc. I=20 had to have a "Wide Load" banner on the front of my pickup and rear of = the=20 trailer and red flags on the ends of the strake.

See http://home.= sprintmail.com/~rolandbrown/page60.html

I had an escort vehicle in front by 100' or so with = flashers=20 going to get folks awake before meeting the wider load behind. All = went=20 well.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Hiroo=20 Umeno
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 = 1:46=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Speaking of=20 moving...

My project is getting = close to=20 moving from a garage to the airport.

My thinking is roll the = fuselage=20 onto a flatbed people use to transport race cars, tie it down good and = drive=20 it down to the airport. The airport is about 20 miles=20 away.

I could take the freeway = most of=20 the way, or I can go entirely on the surface road. Both has pros = and=20 cons.

Interstate:

Smoother = rides=20
Constant = speeds=20
Shorter transit=20 times=20
More speed =3D=3D = dynamic=20 aerodynamic force=20
Encounters with = heavies (18=20 wheelers, etc)=20
State = patrolled.=20

Surface = Roads:

Bumpier and irregular=20 rides=20
Many starts and=20 stops=20
Less large=20 vehicles=20
Municipally=20 patrolled=20
Less dynamic=20 stress=20
Longer transit=20 times

Are there opinions on = what works=20 better for doing this? Obviously, I will be doing this in the = wee hours=20 of the morning when traffic is less of a factor. With the Strake = about=20 11ft wide, I am guessing I would need a wide load permit. Would = that be=20 the cities that are involved (3-4 of them)? Or the state=20 DoT?

Would it be better to = load it tail=20 forward? (Will not try to take off?) or nose first (Less chance for = the center=20 section spar to snag something?) Canard off or = not?

Any tips or=20 tricks?

Hiroo

------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C34ADA.7BD52CC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 19:11:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:11:00 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <008901c34af7$f7dae040$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: Correct. Given the same airspeed of two identitical velocities, one with Franklin, one with Lycoming, I'd expect lower EGT's on the Franklin, higher EGT on the Lycoming, with similar CHT's on both. Of course this depends on cylinder fin design that would determine heat dissipation. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:39 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Brian, > > That makes sense. That also explains the rough idle, sort of > like a hot cam > from a Corvette - lots of exhaust and intake valve overlap which > allows some > of the intake air to go out the exhaust valve at low rpms. And might > contribute to rough mag checks at lower rpms. > > And that would lower the EGT's at lower rpms. But shouldn't make much > difference at static or cruise rpms - right? > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Michalk" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:58 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > | Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic inches, and > are > | rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming > | 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > | The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > valve overlap. > | There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > | volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > | > | > -----Original Message----- > | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > | > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > | > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > | > To: reflector@tvbf.org > | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > | > > | > > | > This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > | > mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > | > in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > | > > | > Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > | > of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > | > exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > | > Its the trend that is of prime importance. > | > > | > Scott > | > > | > John Dibble wrote: > | > > I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > | > says I should not expect > | > > my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > | > > > | > > John > | > > > | > > steve korney wrote: > | > > > | > > > | > >>John... > | > >> > | > >>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > | > about 1250 > | > >>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > | > >>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > | > out...Keep > | > >>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in > the > | > >>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > | > >> > | > >>Best... Steve > | > >> > | > >>_________________________________________________________________ > | > >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > | > >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > | > >> > | > >>_______________________________________________ > | > >>To change your email address, visit > | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > >> > | > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > _______________________________________________ > | > > To change your email address, visit > | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > > > | > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > | > > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > To change your email address, visit > | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > | > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 20:05:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:05:34 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F14507E.1030604@tnstaafl.net> Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are considerably lower. Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. Scott There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! Brian Michalk wrote: > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic inches, and are > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high valve overlap. > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. >> >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. >> >>Scott >> >>John Dibble wrote: >> >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He >> >>says I should not expect >> >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. >>> >>>John >>> >>>steve korney wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>John... >>>> >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of >>> >>about 1250 >> >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it >>> >>out...Keep >> >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >>>> >>>>Best... Steve >>>> >>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 20:44:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Kuc) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:44:46 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" References: <3F130A8F.72587E0B@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <04db01c34b09$8b98c660$0401a8c0@win2k> I haven't receoved mine yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" > For those who didn't notice, Duane discussed these VV issues in the current (3Q) VV and solocited our > comments for proposed changes. > > John > > Jerry.Brainard@anthem.com wrote: > > > Scott, > > > > Since this has been an area of much posturing and venom in the past, I have > > worked to keep the tone of this note as neutral. If I have failed, I > > apologize. What I am hoping to encourage is thoughtful responses that > > provide open communication and meaningful feedback to Duane and Velocity. > > I hope that others will look at the issues in the broader view and let > > Duane know their thoughts. > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 20:47:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Speaking of moving... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715194746.1633.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Hiroo, I hired a flat bed truck (car carrier type) to move my XL w/ spar attached a couple times (don't ask...). It made for easy loading/unloading - just have some extra help so you can supervise. Once on the flatbed, the spar is well above most passenger vehicles. Nose wheel first, canard off, and plenty of weight to keep the nose down during loading/unloading/transporting (I used sand bags in front of the front seats). I chose the roads less traveled w/ the option to pull over and stop if necessary. I ran escort in front to evaluate any potential problems. Pat --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > My project is getting close to moving from a garage > to the airport. > > > > My thinking is roll the fuselage onto a flatbed > people use to transport > race cars, tie it down good and drive it down to the > airport. The > airport is about 20 miles away. > > > > I could take the freeway most of the way, or I can > go entirely on the > surface road. Both has pros and cons. > > > > Interstate: > > * Smoother rides > * Constant speeds > * Shorter transit times > * More speed == dynamic aerodynamic force > * Encounters with heavies (18 wheelers, etc) > * State patrolled. > > > > Surface Roads: > > * Bumpier and irregular rides > * Many starts and stops > * Less large vehicles > * Municipally patrolled > * Less dynamic stress > * Longer transit times > > > > Are there opinions on what works better for doing > this? Obviously, I > will be doing this in the wee hours of the morning > when traffic is less > of a factor. With the Strake about 11ft wide, I am > guessing I would > need a wide load permit. Would that be the cities > that are involved > (3-4 of them)? Or the state DoT? > > > > Would it be better to load it tail forward? (Will > not try to take off?) > or nose first (Less chance for the center section > spar to snag > something?) Canard off or not? > > > > Any tips or tricks? > > > > Hiroo > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 20:52:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:52:10 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: My experience with EGT's is that they are sensitive to the distance from the valve. I don't remember my sources, but I think ideal is about 3". If you are greater than the ideal distance, the temp falls. As someone said earlier, the air/fuel system has a theoretical efficient burn EGT. I have observed that peak EGT is about 1400 degrees on engines as diverse as A/C and two-cycle motorcycles, so I will be surprised if the Franklin engine is really 500 degrees cooler. If you want to try an alternate analysis, you might try a CO2 monitor. Easier still is do what is called a "hot cutoff" on the engine after a power run. If you can find the right situation, you just run the engine at full power down the runway a short ways and cut the ignition. Coast to a safe location and tow the plane back and pull the plugs. Do a plug reading. This is the way the best way to understand the real cylinder mixture during max power. This can also be used to calibrate your observed EGT to the engine performance. I always (with engines that have mixture adjustment) find peak (ignore absolute value) and go from that point, not worrying about the absolute value. Has worked for many years on different engines. -jerry "Ronnie Brown" net> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/15/03 01:38 PM Please respond to reflector Brian, That makes sense. That also explains the rough idle, sort of like a hot cam from a Corvette - lots of exhaust and intake valve overlap which allows some of the intake air to go out the exhaust valve at low rpms. And might contribute to rough mag checks at lower rpms. And that would lower the EGT's at lower rpms. But shouldn't make much difference at static or cruise rpms - right? Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Michalk" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic inches, and are | rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming | 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. | The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high valve overlap. | There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing | volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Scott Derrick | > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | > | > | > This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal | > mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its | > in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. | > | > Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really | > of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the | > exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. | > Its the trend that is of prime importance. | > | > Scott | > | > John Dibble wrote: | > > I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He | > says I should not expect | > > my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. | > > | > > John | > > | > > steve korney wrote: | > > | > > | > >>John... | > >> | > >>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of | > about 1250 | > >>to 1300 (f) on take-off... | > >>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it | > out...Keep | > >>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the | > >>fuel and it will foul your plugs... | > >> | > >>Best... Steve | > >> | > >>_________________________________________________________________ | > >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. | > >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail | > >> | > >>_______________________________________________ | > >>To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > >> | > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > > | > > | > > | > > _______________________________________________ | > > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > > | > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 20:45:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:45:48 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <3F14507E.1030604@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F1459EC.2440443B@dixie-net.com> Yes the burn temperature is the same. However the objective is to convert the energy (heat) of the burn into prop thrust energy. The more that is converted, the lower the residual temperature (EGT) of the combusted fuel. John Scott Derrick wrote: > Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > > I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > > We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > considerably lower. > > Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. > > Scott > > There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic inches, and are > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high valve overlap. > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >> > >> > >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > >> > >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > >> > >>Scott > >> > >>John Dibble wrote: > >> > >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > >> > >>says I should not expect > >> > >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > >>> > >>>John > >>> > >>>steve korney wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>John... > >>>> > >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > >>> > >>about 1250 > >> > >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > >>> > >>out...Keep > >> > >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the lead in the > >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > >>>> > >>>>Best... Steve > >>>> > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>To change your email address, visit > >>> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To change your email address, visit > >> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 21:06:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:06:54 +0200 Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe In-Reply-To: <3F141508.7070004@airmail.net> Message-ID: <007a01c34b0c$a3f2b970$aa23a2d9@ah1> Milt The three only flying Velocities with FAA-approval have met about a year ago at St. Gallen Airport, Switzerland I have sent a message with picture to the reflector. We have gone in contact with Velocity to convince them about the fact, that not one Velocity would ever get an final certificate If it is built in accordance to the manual. JAR / FAR 23 regulation will be enforced much stricter than up to now in due course. (Immediate grounding if out of tolerance.) We have made changes to the following: Canard, rudder, wing, Engine/Prop placement, Cowling, insulated exhaust system with resonanz- + interference silencers, cooling-system optimized for long climbs. The most important results are: (and you are invited to test them with your Velocity) -Vs < 58 KTIAS - Gliding# >18 - Noiselevel < 75dB(A) D15 < 450m ROC 1100 ft/min In addition we have re-engineered the front-strut in order to eliminate shimmy. We have proposed Velocity to integrate these improvements into the standard. As there is seemingly no necessity for the US-Market, we have come to the agreement, that we are under the name : Velocity Europe the representing partners and we sell Velocities and the Europe-Kit to the future builders over here. Last weekend we were three Velocities (Wilhelm Maul, Denis Wood and myself) in Kemble, UK and next weekend we are presenting Velocity at the fly-in at Chambley Bussiere, France. Whoever is crossing the atlantic is invited to join. Now you know most of our actions and intentions. Best, Alfons Alfons Hubmann Velocity Europe Sternengasschen 1 P.O. Box 6620 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Milt <>We have very strong regulations under Far 23 in most countries of <>Europe: <> <>One of them is noise-level. Therefore we have to install exhaust-systems with silencers. <>This means, you have glowing steel tubes in the engine compartment. <>It must be a very highquality steel to ensure it does not get corrosion to quick. <>These glowing tubes are very close to the fuel system as well. <> <>Aircraft which are not complying with the noise limits are grounded. <>And this law will be enforced very soon even more than up to now. <> <>Can you imagine? <> <>Yours, <>Alfons <> <> <> <> <> <>Alfons Hubmann - Treuhandpraxis STV /HFW - Wirtschaftsinformatik - <>Consulting <> <>Tel: +4131 901 22 66 <>Fax: +4131 901 11 40 <>Mob: +4179 344 83 83 <> <>Sternengasschen 1 <>Postfach 6620 <>CH-3001 Bern <> <>www.hubmann.ch <> <> <> <><-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- <><[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Milton Mersky <>< <>< <>< <>< <><_______________________________________________ <>< <>< <> <> <>_______________________________________________ <>To change your email address, visit <>Visit the <> <> < < <_______________________________________________ John... Less heat in the exhaust pipe does not translate into more thrust at the prop. Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 21:26:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:26:04 -0600 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34B0F.50B546D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q2FuIFVTIGJ1aWxkZXJzIGJ1eSBzb21lIG9mIHRoZSBpbm5vdmF0aW9ucyBkaXJlY3RseSBmcm9t IFZlbG9jaXR5IEV1cm9wZT8gIA0KDQoJLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQoJRnJv bTogQWxmb25zIEh1Ym1hbm4gW21haWx0bzpBbGZvbnNASHVibWFubi5jaF0gDQoJU2VudDogVHVl IDcvMTUvMjAwMyAyOjA2IFBNIA0KCVRvOiByZWZsZWN0b3JAdHZiZi5vcmcgDQoJQ2M6IA0KCVN1 YmplY3Q6IEFXOiBBVzogUkVGTEVDVE9SOmV4cGxvc2lvbiAvIFZlbG9jaXR5IEV1cm9wZQ0KCQ0K CQ0KDQoJTWlsdA0KCQ0KCVRoZSB0aHJlZSBvbmx5IGZseWluZyBWZWxvY2l0aWVzIHdpdGggRkFB 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the vacuum and mechanical advances disabled per Jeff Rose's instructions and an induction timing light works on those unshielded wires. Mike P.S. We get no RPM loss on mag check when running the Jeff Rose EI with vacuum and mechanical advances enabled and the MAG off. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:57 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems But if you are trying to time the Jeff Rose, non shielded wires are used and your induction pickup should work. The key will be disabling the "vacuum" and "mechanical" advances so that you can get a static timing reading. Again, give Jeff Rose a call if you haven't already - he should be very happy to help you - I got lots of info from him in just two phone calls. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Balic" To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:06 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | perhaps you could temporarily swap out the number one plug wire for an | unshielded one to do your timing.... | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Mike Pollock | Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:37 AM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | | | You will not get an induction type pickup timing light to work with shielded | wires. I have shielded wires for my mag and the induction timing light will | not work. | | Mike | | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Derrick | Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:43 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems | | | My EI uses regular automotive ignition wires. You just clip the sensor | over the wire. | | I'm not sure how it would work on shielded wires, though I think it | would work fine. | | Scott | | John Dibble wrote: | > Scott, | > | > Thanks. I thought I would have to get closer. Glad I don't have to. | Were you able to pick up the signal | > through the insulated wire, or did you have to insert something more | conductive? | > | > John | > | > Scott Derrick wrote: | > | > | >>John, | >> | >>I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white | >>stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. | >> | >>Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the | >>brakes on. | >> | >>Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the | >>wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the | >>gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 | >>feet away. | >> | >>Scott | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 22:01:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:01:11 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We just use a piece of wire connected to the end of the shielded lead and the induction pickup works then. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:06 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems perhaps you could temporarily swap out the number one plug wire for an unshielded one to do your timing.... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:37 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems You will not get an induction type pickup timing light to work with shielded wires. I have shielded wires for my mag and the induction timing light will not work. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:43 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems My EI uses regular automotive ignition wires. You just clip the sensor over the wire. I'm not sure how it would work on shielded wires, though I think it would work fine. Scott John Dibble wrote: > Scott, > > Thanks. I thought I would have to get closer. Glad I don't have to. Were you able to pick up the signal > through the insulated wire, or did you have to insert something more conductive? > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>John, >> >>I painted a white lines on the flywheel and quick epoxy'd a little white >>stick on the case that stuck out towards the flywheel. >> >>Chocked the plane and had a friend I trusted sit in the plane with the >>brakes on. >> >>Then I just stood in front of the strake(at the joining line to the >>wing) on a small step ladder, leaned towards the engine and pointed the >>gun at the flywheel. The white lines light up real well. from 4 or 5 >>feet away. >> >>Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 22:14:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:14:37 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F14507E.1030604@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin dyno data, but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the discussion. The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why? It's in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and most of the power difference. Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the same amount of air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The tradeoff is that the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out the tailpipe, higher EGT's. The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire inside the cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better intake charge for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely proportional. I can look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my BSFC. The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where can I get one of those? If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly carbon fiber, and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines siezing, due to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very expensive too. It had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > > I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > > We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > considerably lower. > > Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. > > Scott > > There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic > inches, and are > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > valve overlap. > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >> > >> > >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > >> > >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > >> > >>Scott > >> > >>John Dibble wrote: > >> > >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > >> > >>says I should not expect > >> > >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > >>> > >>>John > >>> > >>>steve korney wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>John... > >>>> > >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > >>> > >>about 1250 > >> > >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > >>> > >>out...Keep > >> > >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the > lead in the > >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > >>>> > >>>>Best... Steve > >>>> > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>To change your email address, visit > >>> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To change your email address, visit > >> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 22:19:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:19:40 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > observed that peak EGT is about 1400 degrees on engines as diverse as A/C > and two-cycle motorcycles, so I will be surprised if the Franklin > engine is > really 500 degrees cooler. I would be surprised if it were this much cooler as well. 50, okay. 100 degrees barely maybe. From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 22:31:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:31:16 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Speaking of moving... References: Message-ID: <3F1472A5.D5C79E4A@comcast.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------37CE5115FF0D5CB59F0E49AE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hiroo, > My thinking is roll the fuselage onto a flatbed people use to > transport race cars, tie it down good and drive it down to the > airport. I used exactly the method you described, for a move of approximately 20 miles. We did it early Sunday morning to avoid traffic and prying eyes. We did not have the Interstate option, but I believe this is best accomplished on surface roads. There you are more inconspicuous, and can drive at a more appropriate speed. You definitely don't want your bird making its maiden flight on the way to the airport. > With the Strake about 11ft wide, I am guessing I would need a > wide load permit. Would that be the cities that are involved > (3-4 of them)? Or the state DoT? Yes, 11 ft is officially a wide load. Start by calling the state and asking what permit you need. When we moved ours, the towing company opted not to worry about the permit and just did it. Which brings to mind another advantage of having someone else do the move -- you won't be the one who gets the ticket! But you can reduce the width to near legal dimensions by turning the plane 20� to the left or right after it's on the flatbed. So it's really no big deal. > Would it be better to load it tail forward? I can't see any advantage. It's easier to put it on nose forward. > Canard off or not? Definitely off! The canard is WIDER than the center section spar, and it's relatively delicate. Just carry it on the flatbed under the fuselage. Actually, we carried both wings and canard on a roof rack on our caravan. At separate times, of course! > Any tips or tricks? Just use the tilt-top and let the pros do the work. Make sure it's tied down well, and drive along behind to watch that nothing is shifting. Bottom line: The tilt-top flatbed truck is the best option I can imagine for reasonable distances. Colorado to Alaska may be a little expensive. 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p9C17pxsheeJJKfQ9E4jzXnaSSn0U7vko6rzxJJL6I2O/CM3bHt5XmqSSg+kHd5pa/3rzdJJ T6R8ZSEea83SSU+k6f70hHlPmvNkklPpHwT6/JebJJKfSCkfkvN0klPo+sp3bu8+S83SSQ+j pd/715wkkp9H0/3KQ/k8rzZJJL6Ud8+6P7SYzt1iPKJXmySSn0pkT2+amZ7R8l5kkgno+le6 Du4UR5fJebpIofSjPl8pSG/zXmqSSn0sbvL+P/RUx6sd/wAV5ikkp9QPq9+fkonf3mPKP++r zFJJL6b7P5SQ2ecrzJJJX2P/2Q== --------------37CE5115FF0D5CB59F0E49AE-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 22:49:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity Views comments and an on-line example Message-ID: <20030715214926.27513.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Duane, I have looked at your comments on Velocity Views and find that there is little to support a hard copy of VV. First is you feeling about those without computers; numerous surveys show that 96-98% of pilots have Internet access. For those that don't they can go to almost any library and get free access. If the Internet user wants a hard copy they can selectively print the information. As far as the factory time to produce the information, I'm sure that you at least have to write the articles so you already have it in computer form so their is little more effort to prepare it for on line use. Following is an example of a newsletter produced at least once a month by a very busy secretary and many times it is much longer with many high resolution pictures. It does not take that much time to produce an ADOBE document and the reader is available free to any Internet user who probably has it anyway. Note that it is in color and high quality graphics and pictures are possible. Obviously, there are no printing and mailing costs. http://www.sun-n-fun.org/content/writestuff/ws061203.pdf Instead of waiting for 3 months to get tips and KPC's they can be available every 30 days or immediately if required. Their are no downsides and costs to produce are far less. You really have little justification for not doing it on-line for the convenience of your kit owners and for the ability to disseminate critical information in seconds not months. Jim ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 22:56:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715215636.82415.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Careful Brian that 220 HP is at 3200 RPM and the data plate says 205HP at 2800 RPM so it is close to the lycoming 200 IO-360 given the tuned intakes & FI with a lower compression ratio. Jim --- Brian Michalk wrote: > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 > cubic inches, and are > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare > this to a Lycoming > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes > into the work. > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very > high valve overlap. > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin > cylinder, causing > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > > > This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > > mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't > matter whether its > > in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft > engine. > > > > Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute > temp is really > > of not much concern because where you stick the probe > in and how the > > exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe > temperature quite bit. > > Its the trend that is of prime importance. > > > > Scott > > > > John Dibble wrote: > > > I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin > engines. He > > says I should not expect > > > my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run > cooler. > > > > > > John > > > > > > steve korney wrote: > > > > > > > > >>John... > > >> > > >>In that case your running way to rich...You should > see temps of > > about 1250 > > >>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > > >>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on > run-up...Lean it > > out...Keep > > >>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't > vaporize the lead in the > > >>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > > >> > > >>Best... Steve > > >> > > > >>_________________________________________________________________ > > >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months > FREE*. > > >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > >> > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 23:19:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:19:01 -0400 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe References: Message-ID: <007d01c34b1f$185997e0$65354ed8@mshome.net> I would be interested in how you fixed the shimmy problem also Wayne Owens (testing my own fixes) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:26 PM Subject: RE: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe > Can US builders buy some of the innovations directly from Velocity Europe? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alfons Hubmann [mailto:Alfons@Hubmann.ch] > Sent: Tue 7/15/2003 2:06 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe > > > > Milt > > The three only flying Velocities with FAA-approval have met about a year > ago at St. Gallen Airport, Switzerland > I have sent a message with picture to the reflector. > > We have gone in contact with Velocity to convince them about the fact, > that not one Velocity would ever get an final certificate > If it is built in accordance to the manual. > > JAR / FAR 23 regulation will be enforced much stricter than up to now in > due course. (Immediate grounding if out of tolerance.) > > We have made changes to the following: > Canard, rudder, wing, Engine/Prop placement, Cowling, insulated exhaust > system with resonanz- + interference silencers, cooling-system > optimized for long climbs. > > The most important results are: (and you are invited to test them > with your Velocity) > -Vs < 58 KTIAS > - Gliding# >18 > - Noiselevel < 75dB(A) > D15 < 450m > ROC 1100 ft/min > In addition we have re-engineered the front-strut in order to eliminate > shimmy. > > We have proposed Velocity to integrate these improvements into the > standard. As there is seemingly no necessity for the US-Market, we have > come > to the agreement, that we are under the name : Velocity Europe the > representing partners and we sell Velocities and the Europe-Kit to the > future builders over here. > > Last weekend we were three Velocities (Wilhelm Maul, Denis Wood and > myself) in Kemble, UK and next weekend we are presenting Velocity at > the fly-in > at Chambley Bussiere, France. > Whoever is crossing the atlantic is invited to join. > > Now you know most of our actions and intentions. > > Best, > Alfons > > Alfons Hubmann > > Velocity Europe > Sternengasschen 1 > P.O. Box 6620 > CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland > > Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 > Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 > Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 > > <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > <[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Milton Mersky > < > < > < > < > <& stack system. > < > < > < > <>Milt > <>We have very strong regulations under Far 23 in most countries of > <>Europe: > <> > <>One of them is noise-level. Therefore we have to install > <>exhaust-systems with silencers. > <>This means, you have glowing steel tubes in the engine compartment. > <>It must be a very highquality steel to ensure it does not get > <>corrosion to quick. > <>These glowing tubes are very close to the fuel system as well. > <> > <>Aircraft which are not complying with the noise limits are grounded. > <>And this law will be enforced very soon even more than up to now. > <> > <>Can you imagine? > <> > <>Yours, > <>Alfons > <> > <> > <> > <> > <> > <>Alfons Hubmann - Treuhandpraxis STV /HFW - Wirtschaftsinformatik - > <>Consulting > <> > <>Tel: +4131 901 22 66 > <>Fax: +4131 901 11 40 > <>Mob: +4179 344 83 83 > <> > <>Sternengasschen 1 > <>Postfach 6620 > <>CH-3001 Bern > <> > <>www.hubmann.ch > <> > <> > <> > <><-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > <> <><[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Milton Mersky > <> <> <> <>< > <>< > <> <>< > <> <>< > <><_______________________________________________ > <> <> <>< > <> <> <>< > <> > <> > <>_______________________________________________ > <>To change your email address, visit > <> > <>Visit the > <> > <> > <> > < > < > <_______________________________________________ > < > < > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 23:21:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:21:13 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity Views comments and an on-line example In-Reply-To: <20030715214926.27513.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201c34b1f$68237750$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> Jim good thoughts, but may I weigh in? Gosh, I hate to, since we are beating a dead horse. One more blow: Just because one has computer access doesn't mean it is the most effective means of getting information from a screen or print-out into my pea brain. I find VV most valuable when I can insert myself on the couch at the end of a hard day, pickup up a cup of tea and spend time perusing the pages, absorbing and marking pages. I then place them in notebook for reference. I know I can print things out and that may work for many people to leave it there, but there is something that draws me when it is formatted nicely on good paper, 11 x 17, that I can hold in my hands. I always enjoy seeing the next issue in my mailbox. If I need timely, "latest and greatest data," such as the most recent version of the manuals in pdf format, then yes, that is CLEARLY the way to go. No dispute there. The point is that not all like the hard copy and not all get that much from a computer screen or print-out. When's the last time you read a novel on line. I for one am a hacker from way back, I live and breath microprocessors and Windows XP. My wife says I live in front of the terminal. So I understand the electronic perspective. But, I also get much out of a printed, friendly page. Duane, don't change it. Just make it available on line. BTW, my biz involves printing and mailing millions of pieces of mail per year (yes, I have a certain amount of bias) but I can testify that putting together, editing, proofing, printing and mailing a newsletter is a huge-I mean-huge amount of work. Placing it on-line doesn't necessarily make it easier. I join others on this fine builder list who have expressed appreciation to Rick for his hard work and faithfulness on VV. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Agnew Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:49 PM To: Duane Swing; Velocity Reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity Views comments and an on-line example Duane, I have looked at your comments on Velocity Views and find that there is little to support a hard copy of VV. First is you feeling about those without computers; numerous surveys show that 96-98% of pilots have Internet access. For those that don't they can go to almost any library and get free access. If the Internet user wants a hard copy they can selectively print the information. As far as the factory time to produce the information, I'm sure that you at least have to write the articles so you already have it in computer form so their is little more effort to prepare it for on line use. Following is an example of a newsletter produced at least once a month by a very busy secretary and many times it is much longer with many high resolution pictures. It does not take that much time to produce an ADOBE document and the reader is available free to any Internet user who probably has it anyway. Note that it is in color and high quality graphics and pictures are possible. Obviously, there are no printing and mailing costs. http://www.sun-n-fun.org/content/writestuff/ws061203.pdf Instead of waiting for 3 months to get tips and KPC's they can be available every 30 days or immediately if required. Their are no downsides and costs to produce are far less. You really have little justification for not doing it on-line for the convenience of your kit owners and for the ability to disseminate critical information in seconds not months. Jim ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 23:32:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:32:20 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was just going to post about that but you beat me to it Brian- the Franklin has lower exhaust temperatures and makes more horsepower with less displacement at the same rpm (effective displacement) because it extracts more energy from the fuel then Lycoming does, lycoming sends more energy out the exhaust system. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brian Michalk Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:15 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin dyno data, but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the discussion. The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why? It's in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and most of the power difference. Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the same amount of air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The tradeoff is that the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out the tailpipe, higher EGT's. The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire inside the cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better intake charge for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely proportional. I can look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my BSFC. The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where can I get one of those? If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly carbon fiber, and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines siezing, due to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very expensive too. It had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > > I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > > We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > considerably lower. > > Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. > > Scott > > There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic > inches, and are > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > valve overlap. > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >> > >> > >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > >> > >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > >> > >>Scott > >> > >>John Dibble wrote: > >> > >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > >> > >>says I should not expect > >> > >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > >>> > >>>John > >>> > >>>steve korney wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>John... > >>>> > >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > >>> > >>about 1250 > >> > >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > >>> > >>out...Keep > >> > >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the > lead in the > >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > >>>> > >>>>Best... Steve > >>>> > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>To change your email address, visit > >>> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To change your email address, visit > >> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 23:01:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:01:36 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F1479C0.6090800@tnstaafl.net> I can also easily get 220 HP out of my Lycomiong by installing high compression pistons. No magic there. It requires a high octane fuel and it does wear the engine out out a tad faster, probably not measurable unless you look at 100's of engines. I think the EGT's your seeing are lower because of probe placement alone. I have two holes in one of my exhaust pipes. Because the first placement was not in the main flow and showed 75 degrees cooler than the other probes. about 90 degrees around at the same distance and the temps were aligned. Scott Brian Michalk wrote: >>observed that peak EGT is about 1400 degrees on engines as diverse as A/C >>and two-cycle motorcycles, so I will be surprised if the Franklin >>engine is >>really 500 degrees cooler. > > > I would be surprised if it were this much cooler as well. 50, okay. 100 > degrees barely maybe. > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 15 23:47:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:47:20 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <20030715215636.82415.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F148478.2030105@tnstaafl.net> Now that is interesting! Now I see how they are getting 220 HP.. I'd figure a bit more than that considering I can get 210 in my Lyc with 10.5 to 1 pistons at 2700 RPM. Maybe its not as efficient as advertised? Scott Jim Agnew wrote: > Careful Brian that 220 HP is at 3200 RPM and the data plate > says 205HP at 2800 RPM so it is close to the lycoming 200 > IO-360 given the tuned intakes & FI with a lower > compression ratio. > > Jim > --- Brian Michalk wrote: > >>Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 >>cubic inches, and are >>rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare >>this to a Lycoming >>0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes >>into the work. >>The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very >>high valve overlap. >>There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin >>cylinder, causing >>volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org >> >>[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >> >>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM >>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>> >>> >>>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal >>>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't >> >>matter whether its >> >>>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft >> >>engine. >> >>>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute >> >>temp is really >> >>>of not much concern because where you stick the probe >> >>in and how the >> >>>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe >> >>temperature quite bit. >> >>>Its the trend that is of prime importance. >>> >>>Scott >>> >>>John Dibble wrote: >>> >>>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin >>> >>engines. He >> >>>says I should not expect >>> >>>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run >>> >>cooler. >> >>>>John >>>> >>>>steve korney wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>John... >>>>> >>>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should >>>> >>see temps of >> >>>about 1250 >>> >>>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on >>>> >>run-up...Lean it >> >>>out...Keep >>> >>>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't >>>> >>vaporize the lead in the >> >>>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >>>>> >>>>>Best... Steve >>>>> >>>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>> >>>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months >>>> >>FREE*. >> >>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>> >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>> >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 00:04:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity Views comments and an on-line example In-Reply-To: <001201c34b1f$68237750$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> Message-ID: <20030715230407.42359.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Phil, You can not only duplicate VV exactly in ADOBE, but in color and a lot of other things. The print out will exactly match the on-line. I think you will find that most catalogs, and newsletters are also done in ADOBE. Jim --- Phil Hooper wrote: > Jim good thoughts, but may I weigh in? Gosh, I hate to, > since we are > beating a dead horse. One more blow: > > Just because one has computer access doesn't mean it is > the most effective > means of getting information from a screen or print-out > into my pea brain. > I find VV most valuable when I can insert myself on the > couch at the end of > a hard day, pickup up a cup of tea and spend time > perusing the pages, > absorbing and marking pages. I then place them in > notebook for reference. > I know I can print things out and that may work for many > people to leave it > there, but there is something that draws me when it is > formatted nicely on > good paper, 11 x 17, that I can hold in my hands. I > always enjoy seeing the > next issue in my mailbox. > > If I need timely, "latest and greatest data," such as the > most recent > version of the manuals in pdf format, then yes, that is > CLEARLY the way to > go. No dispute there. > > The point is that not all like the hard copy and not all > get that much from > a computer screen or print-out. When's the last time you > read a novel on > line. I for one am a hacker from way back, I live and > breath > microprocessors and Windows XP. My wife says I live in > front of the > terminal. So I understand the electronic perspective. > > But, I also get much out of a printed, friendly page. > > Duane, don't change it. Just make it available on line. > > BTW, my biz involves printing and mailing millions of > pieces of mail per > year (yes, I have a certain amount of bias) but I can > testify that putting > together, editing, proofing, printing and mailing a > newsletter is a huge-I > mean-huge amount of work. Placing it on-line doesn't > necessarily make it > easier. I join others on this fine builder list who have > expressed > appreciation to Rick for his hard work and faithfulness > on VV. Thank you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf > Of Jim Agnew > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:49 PM > To: Duane Swing; Velocity Reflector > Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity Views comments and an on-line > example > > Duane, > > I have looked at your comments on Velocity Views and find > that there is little to support a hard copy of VV. > > First is you feeling about those without computers; > numerous surveys show that 96-98% of pilots have Internet > access. For those that don't they can go to almost any > library and get free access. If the Internet user wants > a > hard copy they can selectively print the information. > > As far as the factory time to produce the information, > I'm > sure that you at least have to write the articles so you > already have it in computer form so their is little more > effort to prepare it for on line use. > > Following is an example of a newsletter produced at least > once a month by a very busy secretary and many times it > is > much longer with many high resolution pictures. It does > not take that much time to produce an ADOBE document and > the reader is available free to any Internet user who > probably has it anyway. Note that it is in color and > high > quality graphics and pictures are possible. Obviously, > there are no printing and mailing costs. > > http://www.sun-n-fun.org/content/writestuff/ws061203.pdf > > Instead of waiting for 3 months to get tips and KPC's > they > can be available every 30 days or immediately if > required. > > Their are no downsides and costs to produce are far less. > > You really have little justification for not doing it > on-line for the convenience of your kit owners and for > the > ability to disseminate critical information in seconds > not > months. > > Jim > > > > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 01:48:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:48:03 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <20030715215636.82415.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You may be right, or you may be wrong. The engine was certified here in the states as a 220HP engine. The Poles did make some changes, but nothing that should have affected power. Now, we all know how marketers try to take advantage of these numbers. In my case, there is room for error to believe my engine can make either 205 HP, or 220 HP. I have the sheet here run on the dyno in Poland. The numbers are all in metric, but I've made the conversions. at 2800 RPM it shows 205.2 uncorrected metric horsepower. After correcting for temperature and pressure, the corrected metric horsepower is 209.3. However here in the states, we talk about English horsepower, which is 206.4 horsepower. This is on a brand new engine. Once it's broken in, it's possible the horsepower could go up another 5 or six horsepower. So, is it a 220HP, or 205HP engine? It's such a small difference, it's difficult to tell, and the average pilot probably couldn't tell the difference. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Jim Agnew > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:57 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Careful Brian that 220 HP is at 3200 RPM and the data plate > says 205HP at 2800 RPM so it is close to the lycoming 200 > IO-360 given the tuned intakes & FI with a lower > compression ratio. > > Jim > --- Brian Michalk wrote: > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 > > cubic inches, and are > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare > > this to a Lycoming > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes > > into the work. > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very > > high valve overlap. > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin > > cylinder, causing > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > > > > > > This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > > > mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't > > matter whether its > > > in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft > > engine. > > > > > > Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute > > temp is really > > > of not much concern because where you stick the probe > > in and how the > > > exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe > > temperature quite bit. > > > Its the trend that is of prime importance. > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > John Dibble wrote: > > > > I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin > > engines. He > > > says I should not expect > > > > my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run > > cooler. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > steve korney wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>John... > > > >> > > > >>In that case your running way to rich...You should > > see temps of > > > about 1250 > > > >>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > > > >>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on > > run-up...Lean it > > > out...Keep > > > >>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't > > vaporize the lead in the > > > >>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > > > >> > > > >>Best... Steve > > > >> > > > > > > >>_________________________________________________________________ > > > >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months > > FREE*. > > > >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > >> > > > >>_______________________________________________ > > > >>To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >> > > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 02:29:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Scott's question "VV is it worth it?" In-Reply-To: <000501c34adf$abc17290$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <20030716012928.3073.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> --- alventures wrote: > FWIW; this is my response to Duane Al, I respected your initial request and directed my response to Duane (vs. the reflector). As I think you foresaw, the arguments haven't changed and these posts only seem to increase the polarity in the group on this issue. Both wheels could use a little grease... Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 03:49:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:49:34 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Engine Combustion Theory ... was: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F1479C0.6090800@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Oh, this is going to be fun. Regarding EGT measurements, I quote John B. Heywood, "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals", Copyright 1988, ISBN 0-07-028637-X. Page 703-704: Increasing the compression ratio in an SI [spark ignition] engine decreases the total heat flux to the coolant until Rc [compression ratio] is around 10; thereafter heat flux increases slightly as Rc increases. The magnitude of the change is modest; e.g., a 10 percent decrease in the maximum heat flux (at the valve bridge) occurs for an increase in Rc from 7.1 to 9.4. Several gas properties change with increasing compression ratio (at fixed throttle setting): cylinder gas pressures and peak burned gas temperatures increase; gas motion increases; combustion is faster; the surface/volume ratio to TC increases; the gas temperature late in the expansion stroke and during the exhaust stroke is reduced. Measured mean exhaust temperatures confirm the last point, which probably dominates the trend at lower compression ratios. As the compression ratio increases further, the other factors (which all increase heat transfer) become important. The effect of changes in compression ratio on component temperatures depends on location. Generally, head and exhaust valve temperatures decrease with increasing compression ratio, due to lower expansion and exhaust stroke temperatures. The piston and spark plug electrode temperatures increase, at constant throttle setting due to the higher peakcombustion temperatures at higher compression ratios. If knock occurs (see Sec. 9.6), increases in heat flux and component temperatures result; see below. -------- All typos are mine. Unless you have a reference that indicates otherwise, I take these last to paragraphs to mean that increasing the compression ratio lowers the EGT. Also, since "combustion is faster", I conclude that more of the endgas is consumed before the exhaust stroke begins, therefore increasing efficiency. Also, since "cylinder gas pressures ... increase", I conclude that torque is increased, therefore increasing horsepower. The section 9.6 (page 450) referenced above is titled, "Abnormal Combustion: Knock And Surface Ignition". Regarding your remark below, "I can also easily get 220 HP out of my Lycomiong by installing high compression pistons." Maybe you can, but it might be a little difficult. Heywood does not wrap up cylinder geometry/burn rates/detonation factors as nicely as he does factors related to compression ratio. We have what he calls "slow burning engines", defined by the "rapid burning angle". The longer the rapid burning angle, the slower the flame burn rate. The Rapid Burning Angle is defined on p.389: "The crank angle interval required to burn the bulk of the charge. It is defined as interval between the end of the flame-development stage and the end of the flame-propogation process." On page 394, "Mixture burning rate is strongly influenced by engine speed. It is well established that the duration of combustion in crank angle degress [NOT TIME] only increases slowly with increasing engine speed." So burning rate is determined by 1) cylinder geometry, 2) RPMs, and 3) other environmental factors. As you increase the cylinder size, you lengthen the burn time. As you decrease the RPMS, you lengthen the burn time. Page 423, "One of the major advantages of fast burning engines is now apparent. The magnitude of the variations in the flame development process and subsequent flame propogation rate are decreased as the burning rate is increased ... Thus, these smaller combustion variations in fast burn engines, ... have little effect on torque. In contrast, the larger combustion variations of slow burning engines result in significant cyclic torque variations." Since cycle to cycle cylinder pressures are greatest for slow burning engines, we have to set our aviation engines up with a very conservative spark timing. We have the worst of all worlds. High cylinder pressures, large cylinders, and slow RPMS. These three are detonations playground. Remember how your old distributor ignition cars/trucks would clatter in low gear with the accelerator pedal mashed to the floor? (high pressure low RPM) As a contrast to a fast burning engine: Honda CBR929RR Bore and Stroke: 74mm x 54 mm Compression ratio: 11.3:1 Fuel: "regular pump gas" --- I couldn't find an octane requirement. Compare the Franklin to the Lycoming. The Franklin is 10 cubic inches smaller, and it has two more cylinders. This makes its cylinder geometry such that it has a higher burn rate, and therefore less cycle-to-cycle pressure variation. If there is a company making 10.5:1 compression ratio Lycoming IO360 engines, I would like to know. I think I've heard people going 10.1:1, but never as high as 10.5. I don't think high compression engines are in our best interest. This is why I'm turboing my Franklin. I gotta be nuts to turbo a 10.5 CR engine, right? Well, maybe. For now, it turbo normalized. I strongly feel that 100LL is going to get too expensive to burn. When that day comes, I'm going to remove the pistons and have them machined down so that I get about 8:1 compression ratio. Now the turbo really comes in handy, because it's essentially a variable compression ratio valve. If I ever fill up with 100LL, I'll be able to turn the boost up, and get my 205 (or 220) horsepower like I always did. If I fill up with 87 octane, then I won't be able to boost as much. How do I keep track of all of this? Monitor the Peak Pressure Position (PPP). There are a few people on the internet cobbling up circuits such that you can monitor on a per-cylinder basis, the pressure in that cylinder, and also detect detonation by a characteristic signature. It's called ionic cylinder pressure sensing, and it uses the spark plug for the sensor. Most of the work is taken from SAAB patents, and SAE papers. It's a surprisingly simple circuit. Total parts cost for six cylinder monitoring would be well under $200. One guy had a single cylinder system on his car with a laptop for about $15, but a complete embedded processor solution is perhaps a year away. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 5:02 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > I can also easily get 220 HP out of my Lycomiong by installing high > compression pistons. No magic there. It requires a high octane fuel and > it does wear the engine out out a tad faster, probably not measurable > unless you look at 100's of engines. > > I think the EGT's your seeing are lower because of probe placement > alone. I have two holes in one of my exhaust pipes. Because the first > placement was not in the main flow and showed 75 degrees cooler than the > other probes. about 90 degrees around at the same distance and the temps > were aligned. > > Scott > > > Brian Michalk wrote: > >>observed that peak EGT is about 1400 degrees on engines as > diverse as A/C > >>and two-cycle motorcycles, so I will be surprised if the Franklin > >>engine is > >>really 500 degrees cooler. > > > > > > I would be surprised if it were this much cooler as well. 50, > okay. 100 > > degrees barely maybe. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 04:04:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Robert Trent) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:04:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh References: <009101c34afa$2750ec00$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <008e01c34b46$eaf19280$6501a8c0@baycty1.mi.home.com> Ronnie You can park up with the canards in area 51 (accross form the forums) and the welcome wagons will run you down to Homebuilt Headquarters to register and then take you to tent camping in the trees behind the hanger cafe. And we'll do the reverse when you leave. I'll be driving one of the welcome wagons Tuesday afternoon. The parking guys will radio us if we are not already in the area. We tend to cover the Canards and the RV area pretty regularly. We'll be happy to take you guys anywhere on the grounds that you need to go. Bob Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Brown" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:54 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh > I am considering flying my new 173 Elite RG to Oshkosh this year and camping > out. As I recall (its been a couple of years since I went to Oshkosh), > there is Canard parking near the forum area? > > Where would I camp if I parked my plane there? I have flown to Oshkosh > several times in a 172 and camped out in the North 40 under the wings, but > I'm not familar with the situation if I park my Velocity in the Canard only > area. > > THANKS > Ronnie Brown > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 04:52:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:52:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh References: <009101c34afa$2750ec00$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <008e01c34b46$eaf19280$6501a8c0@baycty1.mi.home.com> Message-ID: <016201c34b4d$a32b6140$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Thanks Robert, I'll see you there! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Trent" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:04 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh | Ronnie | You can park up with the canards in area 51 (accross form the forums) and | the welcome wagons will run you down to Homebuilt Headquarters to register | and then take you to tent camping in the trees behind the hanger cafe. And | we'll do the reverse when you leave. | | I'll be driving one of the welcome wagons Tuesday afternoon. The parking | guys will radio us if we are not already in the area. We tend to cover the | Canards and the RV area pretty regularly. We'll be happy to take you guys | anywhere on the grounds that you need to go. | | Bob Trent | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Ronnie Brown" | To: | Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:54 PM | Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh | | | > I am considering flying my new 173 Elite RG to Oshkosh this year and | camping | > out. As I recall (its been a couple of years since I went to Oshkosh), | > there is Canard parking near the forum area? | > | > Where would I camp if I parked my plane there? I have flown to Oshkosh | > several times in a 172 and camped out in the North 40 under the wings, but | > I'm not familar with the situation if I park my Velocity in the Canard | only | > area. | > | > THANKS | > Ronnie Brown | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 05:06:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:06:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34B4F.994FBA0C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know what they say about opinions? They're like Assh---s ... everybody's got one! My problem is ... they're all different. =20 I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won't be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there. =20 He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. =20 He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually "suck out" air creating a cooling effect. =20 He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it - again aiding in the cooling of the engine. =20 He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. =20 =20 Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this: =20 DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE? =20 I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. =20 Thanks in advance. =20 Tom Martino www.troubleshoter.com =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34B4F.994FBA0C Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You know what they say about opinions? They’re like Assh---s ... = everybody’s got one! My problem is ... = they’re all different.

I have a 173 Elite RG with = an IO-540 engine. I just = spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not = worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance = won’t be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back = there.

He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a = five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he = designed.

He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling = because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it = will actually “suck out” air creating a cooling = effect.

He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out = the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi = effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it – again = aiding in the cooling of the engine.

He talked for a long time and sounded completely = confident and knowledgeable. =

Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of = other opinions ... my question to you is this:

DOES IT SOUND = REASONABLE?

I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback = will be appreciated. The = discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your = BRAINS.

Thanks in advance.

Tom = Martino
www.troubleshoter.com

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34B4F.994FBA0C-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 05:22:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:22:04 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION Message-ID: Tom... You just talked to the best source for Velocity information in the country...Alan Shaw is the Velocity Guru...He's been around forever and knows more about Velocity then anyone else...Take what he says for the truth about Velocity and go from there... Best...Steve... ============================================= Tom wrote: I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won't be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there. He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually "suck out" air creating a cooling effect. He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it - again aiding in the cooling of the engine. He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this: DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE? I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. Thanks in advance. Tom Martino www.troubleshoter.com _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 05:44:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:44:21 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030715213050.03716840@mail.adelphia.net> Disclaimer - I'm not a Velocity owner. I worked with Berkut for 8 years and have one of my own, so my experience is related, but it *is* different. >I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw >and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the >added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise >speeds a bit. He said climb performance wont be a problem with that >engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight >back there. We found the same. Performance (2 place, slightly lighter, 1100 lbs empty and a slightly less wing area) was terrific with the 360, and mind-numbingly awesome with the 540. We never used a constant speed prop, for us the decision was 2 blade or 3. Climb will be better - but how much better do you want? And it will cost cruise speed, weight aft and cubic yards of money. >He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in >Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will >fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. We had the best results from Catto. >He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer >to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually >suck outair creating a cooling effect. True, but only a factor on the ground. In flight that amount of suck is negligible. >He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two >ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside >the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it again aiding in >the cooling of the engine. It may well be true, if the cowl extends beyond the end of the pipes. Augmenters that use exhaust velocity to extract cooling air have been around for years, the twin Commander uses them. But it's something that's easy to get wrong - you may have the pipes sticking out too far, or have the round ports too large or small or short or long and get no augmentation. Even then, you may have adequate cooling. Hard to tell without doing a bunch of oil drop trace tests. >He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and >knowledgeable. He's been around a long time. BUT, the Atlantica scares the living daylights out of me and the other people in the industry that know flying wings. >I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback >will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very >intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. As long as you are not one of the living dead and looking for a midnight snack, you are free to use mine. From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 06:13:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:13:07 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION References: Message-ID: <000d01c34b58$f21dcb70$0300a8c0@DAD> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C34B37.6A7E1C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A lot of what Alan has relayed sounds reasonable, but that does not mean = that you will be happy with the performance of a one-speed bicycle, no = matter how strongly developed your leg muscles. A constant speed = propeller allows the engine to develop more horsepower on takeoff, which = in turn offers maximum performance. Also, a constant speed propeller = offers better fuel economy and it can also be used as a drag device in = descents. A constant speed propeller, when placed in the low rpm = setting during emergency power-out situations also improves the = aircraft's glide ratio ... considerably. On the flip side, constant = speed propellers cost about 5-times what a fixed pitch propeller will = cost, not including a governor ... so price does become a factor. The = weight savings of a fixed pitch propeller is not, in my opinion, reason = to select one over the other. Cooling works well with either type of = propeller. Most Velocity pilots, I would say, wish for a constant speed = propeller if price were not a factor. I personally think the decision = boils down to $$ budget and how badly you long for the improved = versatility of performance. Scott B. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 12:06 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION You know what they say about opinions? They're like Assh---s ... = everybody's got one! My problem is ... they're all different. =20 I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan = Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says = the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your = cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won't be a problem with = that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra = weight back there. =20 He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance = Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and = it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. =20 He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get = closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will = actually "suck out" air creating a cooling effect. =20 He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through = two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect = inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it - again = aiding in the cooling of the engine. =20 He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and = knowledgeable. =20 =20 Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... = my question to you is this: =20 DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE? =20 I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any = feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very = intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. =20 Thanks in advance. =20 Tom Martino www.troubleshoter.com=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C34B37.6A7E1C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A lot of what Alan has relayed sounds = reasonable,=20 but that does not mean that you will be happy with the performance of a=20 one-speed bicycle, no matter how strongly developed your leg = muscles. A=20 constant speed propeller allows the engine to develop more horsepower on = takeoff, which in turn offers maximum performance. Also, a = constant speed=20 propeller offers better fuel economy and it can also be used as a drag = device in=20 descents. A constant speed propeller, when placed in the low rpm = setting=20 during emergency power-out situations also improves the aircraft's glide = ratio=20 ... considerably. On the flip side, constant speed propellers cost = about=20 5-times what a fixed pitch propeller will cost, not including a governor = ... so=20 price does become a factor. The weight savings of a fixed pitch = propeller=20 is not, in my opinion, reason to select one over the other. = Cooling works=20 well with either type of propeller. Most Velocity pilots, I would = say,=20 wish for a constant speed propeller if price were not a factor. I=20 personally think the decision boils down to $$ budget and how badly you = long for=20 the improved versatility of performance.

Scott B.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
To: reflector@www.tvbf.org =

Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 12:06=20 AM

Subject: = REFLECTOR:CONFUSION

You know what they say = about=20 opinions? They=92re = like Assh---s=20 ... everybody=92s got one! = My=20 problem is ... they=92re all different.

I have a=20 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and = he swears=20 that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is = not worth=20 it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance = won=92t be a=20 problem with that engine ... and the = Velocity will be=20 better off without the extra weight back = there.

He recommended a = three-blade=20 performance prop made by Performance Props in=20 Arizona. He said it should be put on = a five=20 inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he=20 designed.

He said the fixed pitch = also helps=20 with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on = each side=20 of the prop and it will actually =93suck out=94 air creating a cooling = effect.

He also said that the = exhaust=20 pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and = right) will=20 actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force = cool air=20 to exit around it =96 again aiding in the cooling of the=20 engine.

He talked for a long = time and=20 sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. =

Since his advice seems = to be=20 contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is=20 this:

DOES IT SOUND=20 REASONABLE?

I am getting to a point = where I=20 need to make some decisions. = Any=20 feedback will be appreciated. = The=20 discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take = advantage=20 of your BRAINS.

Thanks in=20 advance.

Tom=20 Martino

www.troubleshoter.com=20

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C34B37.6A7E1C40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 06:22:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:22:38 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030715213050.03716840@mail.adelphia.net> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030715222023.036b5330@mail.adelphia.net> One more thing - reliability and maintenance. There's a Velocity RG with an electric MT prop at Compton (I'm sorry, I don't know the name) that gave me a long tale of woe about all the things that had gone wrong with it, and said that (IIRC) in the 36 months he's owned it, it's been on the airplane about 6 months. Fixed pitch doesn't have those problems. At 09:44 PM 7/15/03 -0700, you wrote: >Disclaimer - I'm not a Velocity owner. I worked with Berkut for 8 years >and have one of my own, so my experience is related, but it *is* different. > >>I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw >>and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the >>added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise >>speeds a bit. He said climb performance wont be a problem with that >>engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight >>back there. > >We found the same. Performance (2 place, slightly lighter, 1100 lbs empty >and a slightly less wing area) was terrific with the 360, and >mind-numbingly awesome with the 540. We never used a constant speed prop, >for us the decision was 2 blade or 3. > >Climb will be better - but how much better do you want? And it will cost >cruise speed, weight aft and cubic yards of money. > >>He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props >>in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it >>will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. > >We had the best results from Catto. > >>He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer >>to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually >>suck outair creating a cooling effect. > >True, but only a factor on the ground. In flight that amount of suck is >negligible. > > >>He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two >>ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside >>the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it again aiding in >>the cooling of the engine. > >It may well be true, if the cowl extends beyond the end of the >pipes. Augmenters that use exhaust velocity to extract cooling air have >been around for years, the twin Commander uses them. But it's something >that's easy to get wrong - you may have the pipes sticking out too far, or >have the round ports too large or small or short or long and get no >augmentation. Even then, you may have adequate cooling. Hard to tell >without doing a bunch of oil drop trace tests. > >>He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. > >He's been around a long time. BUT, the Atlantica scares the living >daylights out of me and the other people in the industry that know flying >wings. > > >>I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any >>feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very >>intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. > >As long as you are not one of the living dead and looking for a midnight >snack, you are free to use mine. >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 07:58:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fredrick J Kerfoot) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 02:58:22 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the nonflying Velocity Message-ID: <20030716.025822.-745131.0.fredkt46@juno.com> Jeff By law all US and Interstate Highways will have a minimum vertical clearance of 13'6". Most Western states will have 14". The maximum width for normal loads is 102" (8'6"). The wide load rules seem to vary from state to state so it is best to check with each state's DOT if you will be over 102". As to the requirements of our not quite so loyal neighbor to the north you will have to check with their DOT. If you do decide load it flat remember to put high visibility markers on the strake ends and watch out for roadside signs and obstructions. Best Fred From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 07:58:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fredrick J Kerfoot) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 02:58:22 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Moving the nonflying Velocity Message-ID: <20030716.025822.-745131.0.fredkt46@juno.com> Jeff By law all US and Interstate Highways will have a minimum vertical clearance of 13'6". Most Western states will have 14". The maximum width for normal loads is 102" (8'6"). The wide load rules seem to vary from state to state so it is best to check with each state's DOT if you will be over 102". As to the requirements of our not quite so loyal neighbor to the north you will have to check with their DOT. If you do decide load it flat remember to put high visibility markers on the strake ends and watch out for roadside signs and obstructions. Best Fred From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 09:31:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 02:31:08 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34B74.9ADAB110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Scott (and others) for the feed back. I already own an MT-3 blade prop and governor. However, according to the MT factory, the most I can shorten it is to 173cm, (if needed to prevent prop problems with the longer engine). So, I may end up having to get a four blade if I stick to a constant speed (MT says those can be reduced to 163cm, if needed). =20 =20 Any idea of the weight difference? And difference in fuel burn? =20 Tom Martino www.troubleshooter.com =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Scott Baker [mailto:sbakr@comcast.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:13 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION =20 A lot of what Alan has relayed sounds reasonable, but that does not mean that you will be happy with the performance of a one-speed bicycle, no matter how strongly developed your leg muscles. A constant speed propeller allows the engine to develop more horsepower on takeoff, which in turn offers maximum performance. Also, a constant speed propeller offers better fuel economy and it can also be used as a drag device in descents. A constant speed propeller, when placed in the low rpm setting during emergency power-out situations also improves the aircraft's glide ratio ... considerably. On the flip side, constant speed propellers cost about 5-times what a fixed pitch propeller will cost, not including a governor ... so price does become a factor. The weight savings of a fixed pitch propeller is not, in my opinion, reason to select one over the other. Cooling works well with either type of propeller. Most Velocity pilots, I would say, wish for a constant speed propeller if price were not a factor. I personally think the decision boils down to $$ budget and how badly you long for the improved versatility of performance. Scott B. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino =20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 12:06 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION =20 You know what they say about opinions? They're like Assh---s ... everybody's got one! My problem is ... they're all different. =20 I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won't be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there. =20 He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. =20 He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually "suck out" air creating a cooling effect. =20 He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it - again aiding in the cooling of the engine. =20 He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. =20 =20 Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this: =20 DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE? =20 I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. =20 Thanks in advance. =20 Tom Martino www.troubleshoter.com =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34B74.9ADAB110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Scott (and others) for the = feed back. I already own an = MT-3 blade prop and governor. However, = according to the MT factory, the most I can shorten it is to 173cm, (if needed to prevent = prop problems with the longer engine). So, I may end up having to get a four blade if I stick to a constant speed (MT = says those can be reduced to 163cm, if needed).

Any idea of the = weight difference? And difference in fuel = burn?

Tom = Martino

www.troubleshooter.com

-----Original = Message-----
From: Scott Baker [mailto:sbakr@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 = 11:13 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:CONFUSION

A lot of what Alan has = relayed sounds reasonable, but that does not mean that you will be happy with = the performance of a one-speed bicycle, no matter how strongly developed = your leg muscles. A constant speed propeller allows the engine to develop = more horsepower on takeoff, which in turn offers maximum performance. = Also, a constant speed propeller offers better fuel economy and it can also be = used as a drag device in descents. A constant speed propeller, when placed = in the low rpm setting during emergency power-out situations also improves the aircraft's glide ratio ... considerably. On the flip side, = constant speed propellers cost about 5-times what a fixed pitch propeller will cost, = not including a governor ... so price does become a factor. The weight savings of a fixed pitch propeller is not, in my opinion, reason to = select one over the other. Cooling works well with either type of = propeller. Most Velocity pilots, I would say, wish for a constant speed propeller = if price were not a factor. I personally think the decision boils down to = $$ budget and how badly you long for the improved versatility of = performance.

Scott = B.

----- Original Message = -----

From: Tom Martino

To:<= /font> reflector@www.tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 16, = 2003 12:06 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION

You know what they say = about opinions? They’re = like Assh---s ... everybody’s got one! = My problem is ... they’re all different.

I have a 173 Elite RG with = an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to = Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not = worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance = won’t be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back = there.

He recommended a = three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in = Arizona. He said it should be put on a = five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he = designed.

He said the fixed pitch = also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each = side of the prop and it will actually “suck out” air creating a = cooling effect.

He also said that the = exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) = will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force = cool air to exit around it – again aiding in the cooling of the = engine.

He talked for a long time = and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable.

Since his advice seems to = be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is = this:

DOES IT SOUND = REASONABLE?

I am getting to a point = where I need to make some decisions. = Any feedback will be appreciated. The = discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS.

Thanks in = advance.

Tom = Martino

www.troubleshoter.com =

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34B74.9ADAB110-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 09:40:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 03:40:44 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:If you know anyone who needs and IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... Message-ID: Let me know. The engine is still under warranty with Wentworth (have the log book) for one year from first flight. The install kit is from Velocity (for an IO360) -- $8000 + shipping takes it all (engine, logs, and install kit). The engine has about 100 hrs before TBO. The engine is pickled and is resting on part of the crate. I paid way more that 8000 for the engine and install kit... I'll sell the SUV project for $36000 once the engine is sold. It appears I'll have to break the project up in order to get it sold. The SUV kit will include the avionics I have (can't sell those separate -- sorry). Thanks! -Don _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 10:30:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:50 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION References: Message-ID: <3F151B4B.D5D958F@comcast.net> > Tom, > I just spoke to > Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT > necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it > will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said > climb performance won�t be a problem with that engine ... and > the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back > there. I'll second what Steve Korney said about Alan. He knows the Velocity better than the back of his hand. You can believe what he says. In my opinion, the only real advantage of a constant speed prop is shorter takeoff roll. You'll shorten that by half! That could be a lifesaver, and if so, is well worth the price. Constant speed does give you better power and drag control, so you may be able to make more accurate landings, for instance. BUT the tradeoff is 5x cost, loss of a couple knots at cruise, rearward CG, and maintenance. If money is no issue, absolutely go for it. > I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. If you're still on the fence after reading all the opinions on this subject, I'd suggest you take the cheaper route and go with the Performance or Catto prop. By the time you've flown six months or so, you'll KNOW if you want to upgrade. Then it would still be nice to have the Fixed prop as a spare against the eventuality of the Constant Speed being down for maintenance for a while. And finally, as an A&P friend said to me, which prop would you rather damage or destroy during your flight testing? Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 13:23:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:23:22 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher RPM. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brian Michalk Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin dyno data, but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the discussion. The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why? It's in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and most of the power difference. Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the same amount of air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The tradeoff is that the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out the tailpipe, higher EGT's. The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire inside the cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better intake charge for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely proportional. I can look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my BSFC. The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where can I get one of those? If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly carbon fiber, and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines siezing, due to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very expensive too. It had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > > I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > > We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > considerably lower. > > Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. > > Scott > > There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic > inches, and are > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > valve overlap. > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >> > >> > >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > >> > >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > >> > >>Scott > >> > >>John Dibble wrote: > >> > >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > >> > >>says I should not expect > >> > >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > >>> > >>>John > >>> > >>>steve korney wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>John... > >>>> > >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > >>> > >>about 1250 > >> > >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > >>> > >>out...Keep > >> > >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the > lead in the > >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > >>>> > >>>>Best... Steve > >>>> > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>To change your email address, visit > >>> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To change your email address, visit > >> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 13:57:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:57:10 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F154BA6.91552B10@dixie-net.com> Brian, I agree with your comments about compression ratio, power, and EGT. However, you can't get the EGT at the intake temp because the laws of thermodynamics limit the maximum energy extraction for an internal combustion engine at around 30%. Fuel cells can extract around 90% of the energy, but we're a long way from a practical fuel cell that will work on a practical fuel like gasoline. Brian Michalk wrote: > The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake > temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where > can I get one of those? > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 14:04:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:04:58 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: <20030715215636.82415.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F154D79.CB38EEB3@dixie-net.com> My Franklin manual specifies 220 HP, 2800 rpm max. John Jim Agnew wrote: > Careful Brian that 220 HP is at 3200 RPM and the data plate > says 205HP at 2800 RPM so it is close to the lycoming 200 > IO-360 given the tuned intakes & FI with a lower > compression ratio. > > Jim From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 14:48:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:48:06 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At what RPM does the Lycoming make its peak horsepower? My glossy PZL sales brochure shows: At 2800 RPM, HP is 205, the certified max horsepower. At 2700 RPM, HP is about 198. At 2600 RPM, HP is about 192. At 2500 RPM, HP is about 184. At 2400 RPM, HP is about 175. If there are other references indicating otherwise, please inform me. The sales brochure is a little confusing. The HP curve I gave you is labelled, "HP full throttle". It peaks, and then they make another curve going down, below this one labelled, "HP prop load." I'm assuming the bottom curve is the one obtained by setting a constant torque equal to where the max horsepower is, then closing the throttle. One graph is full throttle, variable torque, graph below is constant torque, variable throttle. I could be wrong. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Mike Pollock > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:23 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > "The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" > > Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher > RPM. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. > I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because > there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to > compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin > dyno data, > but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the > discussion. > > The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. > Why? It's > in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic > was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on > compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and > most of the power difference. > > Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the > same amount of > air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The > tradeoff is that > the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of > 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation > doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out > the tailpipe, > higher EGT's. > > The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire > inside the > cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better > intake charge > for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely > proportional. I can > look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my > BSFC. > > The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake > temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where > can I get one of those? > > If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and > Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some > combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. > > As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about > experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly > carbon fiber, > and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self > lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion > temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said > they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines > siezing, due > to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very > expensive too. It > had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > > > Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > > > > I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > > > > We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > > considerably lower. > > > > Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > > at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic > Franklin or not. > > > > Scott > > > > There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > > > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic > > inches, and are > > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to > a Lycoming > > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > > valve overlap. > > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > >> > > >> > > >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > > >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > > >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > > >> > > >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > > >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > > >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > > >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > > >> > > >>Scott > > >> > > >>John Dibble wrote: > > >> > > >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > > >> > > >>says I should not expect > > >> > > >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > > >>> > > >>>John > > >>> > > >>>steve korney wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>John... > > >>>> > > >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > > >>> > > >>about 1250 > > >> > > >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > > >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > > >>> > > >>out...Keep > > >> > > >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the > > lead in the > > >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > > >>>> > > >>>>Best... Steve > > >>>> > > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > > >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > >>>> > > >>>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>>To change your email address, visit > > >>> > > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > >> > > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>To change your email address, visit > > >> > > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > >> > > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>To change your email address, visit > > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > >> > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 15:20:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:20:09 -0400 Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe In-Reply-To: <007a01c34b0c$a3f2b970$aa23a2d9@ah1> References: <007a01c34b0c$a3f2b970$aa23a2d9@ah1> Message-ID: Is dennis wood in the UK with his aircraft? Jack N55XL From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 15:23:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:23:52 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION References: Message-ID: <3F155FF8.2060305@tnstaafl.net> Alan's a good guy and knows a great deal but he's also got an ego as big as the state of Florida. He's very attached to his ideas. I completely agree that with a IO540 your climb performance will be good either way. But, for all around performance you can't beat a constant speed prop. No way, no how. You can tune a fixed pitch prop to beat a constant speed in one phase of flight: climb, flat out, etc.. But your not building a racer. I wish I could afford a CS prop for my Std RG., I'd buy it today. > He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props > in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it > will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. I'd recommend a Catto if your were going fixed pitch. > He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get > closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will > actually ?suck out? air creating a cooling effect. Maybe, maybe not. I think this kind of thing requires a 1,000 hours of tweaking to get it right. > He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two > ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect > inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it ? again > aiding in the cooling of the engine. Same comment as above. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 15:24:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:24:43 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:engines and power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To add to this, my SVX will produce about 300 hp on just 200 cubic inches of displacement, but it will be turning at 5700 rpm to do the same work that a 540 lycoming will do at 2650, so the effective displacement is close. If we do the math on the Franklin and the Lyc. (I think that the frank make's it's power at 150 more RPM with 10 less in3?), so it works out to 2227 cu in/minute/hp (frank) vs. 2385 cu in/minute/hp for the Lyc., of effective displacement. (still looks good for the Franklin) Remember, the definition of HP is based on work done per period of time, so lifting 100 pounds 10 feet in one minute is the same as lifting 10 pounds 100 feet in one minute, which is the same as lifting 6000# 10' in one hour. torque is the measurement of force that can be exerted at any given moment in time. HP does not change with gearing, but torque does. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 6:23 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems "The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher RPM. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brian Michalk Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin dyno data, but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the discussion. The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why? It's in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and most of the power difference. Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the same amount of air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The tradeoff is that the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out the tailpipe, higher EGT's. The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire inside the cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better intake charge for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely proportional. I can look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my BSFC. The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where can I get one of those? If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly carbon fiber, and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines siezing, due to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very expensive too. It had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > > I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > > We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > considerably lower. > > Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. > > Scott > > There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic > inches, and are > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > valve overlap. > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >> > >> > >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > >> > >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > >> > >>Scott > >> > >>John Dibble wrote: > >> > >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > >> > >>says I should not expect > >> > >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > >>> > >>>John > >>> > >>>steve korney wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>John... > >>>> > >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > >>> > >>about 1250 > >> > >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > >>> > >>out...Keep > >> > >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the > lead in the > >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > >>>> > >>>>Best... Steve > >>>> > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>To change your email address, visit > >>> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To change your email address, visit > >> > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 15:26:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:26:15 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F156087.8000200@tnstaafl.net> Mike, Because they are turning it faster, UNDERSTAND!!!! The HP output of an engine will increase with RPM up to a certain point. All engines have some curve that will give a certain HP for a certain RPM. That's why a constant speed prop beats a fixed cruise pitch prop on take off. The fixed pitch prop won't allow the engine to turn up to speed, thus the reduced HP. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > "The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" > > Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher > RPM. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. > I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because > there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to > compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin dyno data, > but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the > discussion. > > The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why? It's > in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic > was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on > compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and > most of the power difference. > > Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the same amount of > air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The tradeoff is that > the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of > 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation > doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out the tailpipe, > higher EGT's. > > The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire inside the > cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better intake charge > for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely proportional. I can > look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my > BSFC. > > The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake > temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where > can I get one of those? > > If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and > Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some > combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. > > As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about > experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly carbon fiber, > and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self > lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion > temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said > they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines siezing, due > to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very expensive too. It > had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. >> >>I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. >> >>We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are >>considerably lower. >> >>Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns >>at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. >> >>Scott >> >>There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! >> >>Brian Michalk wrote: >> >>>Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic >> >>inches, and are >> >>>rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming >>>0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. >>>The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high >> >>valve overlap. >> >>>There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing >>>volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM >>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>> >>>> >>>>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal >>>>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its >>>>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. >>>> >>>>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really >>>>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the >>>>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. >>>>Its the trend that is of prime importance. >>>> >>>>Scott >>>> >>>>John Dibble wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He >>>> >>>>says I should not expect >>>> >>>> >>>>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. >>>>> >>>>>John >>>>> >>>>>steve korney wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>John... >>>>>> >>>>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of >>>>> >>>>about 1250 >>>> >>>> >>>>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>>>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it >>>>> >>>>out...Keep >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the >>>>> >>lead in the >> >>>>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >>>>>> >>>>>>Best... Steve >>>>>> >>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>> >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>> >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>> >>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 15:36:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:36:43 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Ojbk/TF4BK+vk5Ptiw1VxQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Anybody have the website and/or phone for Performance propellers? trying to google them brings up way to much- like naming and ice cream company "good ice cream" -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:06 PM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION You know what they say about opinions? They're like Assh---s ... everybody's got one! My problem is ... they're all different. I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won't be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there. He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually "suck out" air creating a cooling effect. He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it - again aiding in the cooling of the engine. He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this: DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE? I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. Thanks in advance. Tom Martino www.troubleshoter.com --Boundary_(ID_Ojbk/TF4BK+vk5Ptiw1VxQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Anybody have the website and/or phone for Performance propellers? trying to google them brings up way to much- like naming and ice cream company "good ice cream"

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:06 PM
To: reflector@www.tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION

You know what they say about opinions? They’re like Assh---s ... everybody’s got one! My problem is ... they’re all different.

I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won’t be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there.

He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed.

He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually “suck out” air creating a cooling effect.

He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it – again aiding in the cooling of the engine.

He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable.

Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this:

DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE?

I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS.

Thanks in advance.

Tom Martino

www.troubleshoter.com

--Boundary_(ID_Ojbk/TF4BK+vk5Ptiw1VxQ)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 15:45:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:45:44 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F156087.8000200@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Scott, What's the Lycoming performance numbers for horsepower vs RPM for an O-360? From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 15:43:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (William C. Cox) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:43:10 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:36:43 CDT." Message-ID: <200307161443.h6GEhBB03169@thuvia.qswtools.com> Hi Folks, I have Performance Prop's info as (620)394-2059 PO Box 486 Patagonia, AZ 85624 Owner is Clark Lydick. From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 16:03:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:03:00 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Franklin Performance specifications In-Reply-To: <3F154D79.CB38EEB3@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: I have the type certificate data as amended on December 8, 1994 to PZL by the FAA. Please see: www.awpi.com/~michalk/e9ea.pdf I don't know why PZL advertises their engine as 205 horsepower, but I've heard lot's of speculation. When I was a dealer in Franklin engines, I asked PZL why they did this. I still couldn't get an answer that made sense. It was like talking to a politician. Even looking at their TC doesn't make sense. The 6A-350-C1 is the American made engine rated at 220 horsepower. The 6A-350-C1R,L is the PZL made engine, rated at 205 horsepower. On page 7, note 9, they list the difference between the C1 and the C1R: "6A-350-C1R Same as -C1 except for new starter, alternator, and voltage regulator to be compatible with 12 volt system; modified starter gear and damper assembly; new propeller shaft seal and speed governor; relocated starting injectors; and oil sump modification." So unless the relocation of the starting injectors, or the damper assembly caused a reduction in 15 horsepower, I don't see where they are different power-wise. I quote from the current (to my knowledge) type certificate referenced above: model max horsepower max RPM 6A-350-C1 220 2800 6A-350-D1 200 3200 6A-350-C1R* 205 2800 6A-350-D1A 230 3200 6A-350-C1L* 205 2800 6A-350-C2 215 2800 6A-350-D1B 220 3000 6A-350-C2A 212 2800 6V-350-A 235 3200 6A-350-D 235 3200 6V-350-B 235 3200 > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of John Dibble > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:05 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > My Franklin manual specifies 220 HP, 2800 rpm max. > > John > > Jim Agnew wrote: > > > Careful Brian that 220 HP is at 3200 RPM and the data plate > > says 205HP at 2800 RPM so it is close to the lycoming 200 > > IO-360 given the tuned intakes & FI with a lower > > compression ratio. > > > > Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 16:31:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:31:53 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F154BA6.91552B10@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: Oh, I understand. I know that delta temps of zero degrees are impossible, due solely to the laws of thermodynamics. I was trying to illustrate that as exhaust temperature approaches intake temperature, efficiency goes to 100% -- thermodynamics notwithstanding. I also know that ther is no engine today anywhere close to this. I had no idea fuel cells were anywhere this good. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of John Dibble > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:57 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Brian, > I agree with your comments about compression ratio, power, and > EGT. However, you > can't get the EGT at the intake temp because the laws of > thermodynamics limit the > maximum energy extraction for an internal combustion engine at > around 30%. Fuel cells > can extract around 90% of the energy, but we're a long way from a > practical fuel cell > that will work on a practical fuel like gasoline. > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > > The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as > the intake > > temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the > fuel. Where > > can I get one of those? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 17:12:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:12:32 -0400 Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe References: <007a01c34b0c$a3f2b970$aa23a2d9@ah1> Message-ID: <002201c34bb5$1483eda0$0300a8c0@DAD> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C34B93.8910A130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes indeed! http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_798091.html Two British pensioners have completed a four-day crossing of the Atlantic in a home-made plane. Retired British Airways pilot Denis Wood and his friend Jack Berkin, both 68, completed the arduous 5,000-mile journey at Blackpool airport and with it a five-year dream. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Sheehan" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: Re: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe > Is dennis wood in the UK with his aircraft? > Jack > N55XL > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C34B93.8910A130 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="61700.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.ananova.com/images/web/61700.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD/7gAOQWRvYmUAZIAAAAAB/9sAhAAQCwsLDAsQDAwQFw8NDxcb FBAQFBsfFxcXFxcfEQwMDAwMDBEMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMAREPDxETERUS EhUUDg4OFBQODg4OFBEMDAwMDBERDAwMDAwMEQwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAz/ 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Message-ID: Don... Which IO-360 do you have... Best... Steve ================================= ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Donald Hamm" Reply-To: reflector@tvbf.org To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:If you know anyone who needs and IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 03:40:44 -0500 Let me know. The engine is still under warranty with Wentworth (have the log book) for one year from first flight. The install kit is from Velocity (for an IO360) -- $8000 + shipping takes it all (engine, logs, and install kit). The engine has about 100 hrs before TBO. The engine is pickled and is resting on part of the crate. I paid way more that 8000 for the engine and install kit... I'll sell the SUV project for $36000 once the engine is sold. It appears I'll have to break the project up in order to get it sold. The SUV kit will include the avionics I have (can't sell those separate -- sorry). Thanks! -Don _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 17:57:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:57:47 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info References: <200307161443.h6GEhBB03169@thuvia.qswtools.com> Message-ID: <021d01c34bbb$6274dfa0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> And while you are shopping for a new prop, don't forget Craig Catto's props. I have been very pleased with the quality and durability of the Catto prop I have. The wood grained Performance Prop is pretty for sure, but I like the idea of a wood prop encased in durable epoxy and fiberglass. Catto is at http://www.cattoprops.com/ And it is about a thousand less expensive. Its worth waiting a few more weeks for the value. Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG with IO360 C1C 66 dia 72 pitch = 170 knots and 2500 rpm, but long take off runs (over 2000 feet) and 500-600 fpm. 66 dia 70 pitch = 155 knots and 2700 rpm, take off run = 1500 feet and greater than 1000 fpm climbs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William C. Cox" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info | Hi Folks, | | I have Performance Prop's | info as (620)394-2059 | PO Box 486 | Patagonia, AZ 85624 | | Owner is Clark Lydick. | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 18:16:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:16:05 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lycoming Max HP is rated at 2700 RPM for an O-360 or IO-360. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brian Michalk Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:48 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems At what RPM does the Lycoming make its peak horsepower? My glossy PZL sales brochure shows: At 2800 RPM, HP is 205, the certified max horsepower. At 2700 RPM, HP is about 198. At 2600 RPM, HP is about 192. At 2500 RPM, HP is about 184. At 2400 RPM, HP is about 175. If there are other references indicating otherwise, please inform me. The sales brochure is a little confusing. The HP curve I gave you is labelled, "HP full throttle". It peaks, and then they make another curve going down, below this one labelled, "HP prop load." I'm assuming the bottom curve is the one obtained by setting a constant torque equal to where the max horsepower is, then closing the throttle. One graph is full throttle, variable torque, graph below is constant torque, variable throttle. I could be wrong. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Mike Pollock > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:23 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > "The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" > > Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher > RPM. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. > I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because > there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to > compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin > dyno data, > but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the > discussion. > > The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. > Why? It's > in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic > was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on > compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and > most of the power difference. > > Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the > same amount of > air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The > tradeoff is that > the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of > 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation > doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out > the tailpipe, > higher EGT's. > > The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire > inside the > cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better > intake charge > for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely > proportional. I can > look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my > BSFC. > > The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake > temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where > can I get one of those? > > If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and > Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some > combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. > > As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about > experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly > carbon fiber, > and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self > lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion > temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said > they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines > siezing, due > to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very > expensive too. It > had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > > > Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > > > > I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > > > > We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > > considerably lower. > > > > Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > > at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic > Franklin or not. > > > > Scott > > > > There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > > > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > > Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic > > inches, and are > > > rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to > a Lycoming > > > 0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > > > The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > > valve overlap. > > > There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > > > volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > >> > > >> > > >>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > > >>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its > > >>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > > >> > > >>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really > > >>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > > >>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. > > >>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > > >> > > >>Scott > > >> > > >>John Dibble wrote: > > >> > > >>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > > >> > > >>says I should not expect > > >> > > >>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > > >>> > > >>>John > > >>> > > >>>steve korney wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>John... > > >>>> > > >>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > > >>> > > >>about 1250 > > >> > > >>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > > >>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > > >>> > > >>out...Keep > > >> > > >>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the > > lead in the > > >>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > > >>>> > > >>>>Best... Steve > > >>>> > > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > > >>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > >>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > >>>> > > >>>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>>To change your email address, visit > > >>> > > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > >> > > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>To change your email address, visit > > >> > > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > >> > > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>To change your email address, visit > > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > >> > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 18:21:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:21:27 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C34B94.C7839C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, Clark from Performance Propellers can be reached at (520) 394-2059. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:37 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info Anybody have the website and/or phone for Performance propellers? trying to google them brings up way to much- like naming and ice cream company "good ice cream" -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:06 PM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION You know what they say about opinions? They're like Assh---s ... everybody's got one! My problem is ... they're all different. I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won't be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there. He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually "suck out" air creating a cooling effect. He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it - again aiding in the cooling of the engine. He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this: DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE? I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. Thanks in advance. Tom Martino www.troubleshoter.com ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C34B94.C7839C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi=20 Alex,

Clark from Performance Propellers can be reached at=20 (520) 394-2059.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander=20 Balic
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:37 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop = contact=20 info

Anybody have the website and/or phone for Performance = propellers?=20 trying to google them brings up way to much- like naming and ice cream = company=20 "good ice cream"

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:06 = PM
To:=20 reflector@www.tvbf.org
Subject:=20 REFLECTOR:CONFUSION

You know what they say = about=20 opinions? = They’re like Assh---s=20 ... everybody’s got one! My=20 problem is ... they’re all = different.

I have a=20 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw = and he=20 swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight = is not=20 worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a = bit. He said climb performance = won’t be a=20 problem with that engine ... and the = Velocity will be=20 better off without the extra weight back = there.

He recommended a = three-blade=20 performance prop made by Performance Props in=20 Arizona. He said it should be put = on a five=20 inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he=20 designed.

He said the fixed = pitch also=20 helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl = openings on=20 each side of the prop and it will actually “suck out” = air creating a cooling=20 effect.

He also said that the = exhaust=20 pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and = right)=20 will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will = force=20 cool air to exit around it – again aiding in the cooling of = the=20 engine.

He talked for a long = time and=20 sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. =

Since his advice seems = to be=20 contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is=20 this:

DOES IT SOUND=20 REASONABLE?

I am getting to a = point where I=20 need to make some decisions. = Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have = seen here are=20 very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your=20 BRAINS.

Thanks in=20 advance.

Tom=20 Martino

www.troubleshoter.com=20

= ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C34B94.C7839C00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 18:21:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:21:25 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F156087.8000200@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: I understand perfectly! I answered the question, not asked it... Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:26 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Mike, Because they are turning it faster, UNDERSTAND!!!! The HP output of an engine will increase with RPM up to a certain point. All engines have some curve that will give a certain HP for a certain RPM. That's why a constant speed prop beats a fixed cruise pitch prop on take off. The fixed pitch prop won't allow the engine to turn up to speed, thus the reduced HP. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > "The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" > > Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher > RPM. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. > I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because > there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to > compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin dyno data, > but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the > discussion. > > The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why? It's > in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic > was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on > compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and > most of the power difference. > > Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the same amount of > air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The tradeoff is that > the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of > 100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation > doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out the tailpipe, > higher EGT's. > > The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire inside the > cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better intake charge > for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely proportional. I can > look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my > BSFC. > > The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake > temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where > can I get one of those? > > If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and > Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some > combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. > > As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about > experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly carbon fiber, > and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self > lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion > temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said > they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines siezing, due > to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very expensive too. It > had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. >> >>I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. >> >>We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are >>considerably lower. >> >>Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns >>at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic Franklin or not. >> >>Scott >> >>There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! >> >>Brian Michalk wrote: >> >>>Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic >> >>inches, and are >> >>>rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to a Lycoming >>>0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. >>>The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high >> >>valve overlap. >> >>>There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing >>>volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM >>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>> >>>> >>>>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal >>>>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its >>>>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. >>>> >>>>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really >>>>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the >>>>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. >>>>Its the trend that is of prime importance. >>>> >>>>Scott >>>> >>>>John Dibble wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He >>>> >>>>says I should not expect >>>> >>>> >>>>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. >>>>> >>>>>John >>>>> >>>>>steve korney wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>John... >>>>>> >>>>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of >>>>> >>>>about 1250 >>>> >>>> >>>>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>>>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it >>>>> >>>>out...Keep >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the >>>>> >>lead in the >> >>>>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >>>>>> >>>>>>Best... Steve >>>>>> >>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>> >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>> >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>> >>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 18:44:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:44:31 -0500 Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe In-Reply-To: <002201c34bb5$1483eda0$0300a8c0@DAD> Message-ID: See now, that is what it is all about isn't it? Did you see the next story about the ex-marine that was walking across England with a refrigerator strapped to his back? crazy English folks- said that it was a full size refrigerator too, must have small food in England! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Baker Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:13 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe Yes indeed! http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_798091.html Two British pensioners have completed a four-day crossing of the Atlantic in a home-made plane. Retired British Airways pilot Denis Wood and his friend Jack Berkin, both 68, completed the arduous 5,000-mile journey at Blackpool airport and with it a five-year dream. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Sheehan" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: Re: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe > Is dennis wood in the UK with his aircraft? > Jack > N55XL > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 18:44:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:44:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: <021d01c34bbb$6274dfa0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: Ronnie, I have already contacted Craig about it, but wanted to so some shopping, I hear that the performance props have just a little better "performance" but that the Cato is built more ruggedly- I'm just going to use them for flight testing- will go to an MT when I am reasonable certain that I will not end up sitting on those really expensive blades....... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:58 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info And while you are shopping for a new prop, don't forget Craig Catto's props. I have been very pleased with the quality and durability of the Catto prop I have. The wood grained Performance Prop is pretty for sure, but I like the idea of a wood prop encased in durable epoxy and fiberglass. Catto is at http://www.cattoprops.com/ And it is about a thousand less expensive. Its worth waiting a few more weeks for the value. Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG with IO360 C1C 66 dia 72 pitch = 170 knots and 2500 rpm, but long take off runs (over 2000 feet) and 500-600 fpm. 66 dia 70 pitch = 155 knots and 2700 rpm, take off run = 1500 feet and greater than 1000 fpm climbs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William C. Cox" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info | Hi Folks, | | I have Performance Prop's | info as (620)394-2059 | PO Box 486 | Patagonia, AZ 85624 | | Owner is Clark Lydick. | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 18:57:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:57:00 EDT Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion Message-ID: <71.32f5c266.2c46ebec@aol.com> --part1_71.32f5c266.2c46ebec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And fire warning should be mandatory Mack --part1_71.32f5c266.2c46ebec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And fire warning should be manda= tory
Mack --part1_71.32f5c266.2c46ebec_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 19:09:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:09:23 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F1594D3.8030102@tnstaafl.net> Thats right & wrong.. MAX RPM is 2700, not max HP. Its that at 2700 RPM(max recommended rpm) it is producing 200 HP, at sea level on a standard day. At 2800 RPM its more, at 2900 RPM its even more. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > Lycoming Max HP is rated at 2700 RPM for an O-360 or IO-360. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:48 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > At what RPM does the Lycoming make its peak horsepower? > > > My glossy PZL sales brochure shows: > At 2800 RPM, HP is 205, the certified max horsepower. > At 2700 RPM, HP is about 198. > At 2600 RPM, HP is about 192. > At 2500 RPM, HP is about 184. > At 2400 RPM, HP is about 175. > > If there are other references indicating otherwise, please inform me. > > The sales brochure is a little confusing. The HP curve I gave you is > labelled, "HP full throttle". It peaks, and then they make another curve > going down, below this one labelled, "HP prop load." I'm assuming the > bottom curve is the one obtained by setting a constant torque equal to where > the max horsepower is, then closing the throttle. > > One graph is full throttle, variable torque, graph below is constant torque, > variable throttle. I could be wrong. > > Brian Michalk > Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. > Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver > musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Mike Pollock >>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:23 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>"The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches >>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" >> >>Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher >>RPM. >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Brian Michalk >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. >>I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because >>there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to >>compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin >>dyno data, >>but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the >>discussion. >> >>The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches >>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. >>Why? It's >>in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic >>was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on >>compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and >>most of the power difference. >> >>Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the >>same amount of >>air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The >>tradeoff is that >>the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of >>100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation >>doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out >>the tailpipe, >>higher EGT's. >> >>The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire >>inside the >>cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better >>intake charge >>for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely >>proportional. I can >>look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my >>BSFC. >> >>The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake >>temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where >>can I get one of those? >> >>If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and >>Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some >>combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. >> >>As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about >>experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly >>carbon fiber, >>and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self >>lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion >>temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said >>they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines >>siezing, due >>to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very >>expensive too. It >>had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM >>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>> >>> >>>Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. >>> >>>I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. >>> >>>We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are >>>considerably lower. >>> >>>Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns >>>at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic >> >>Franklin or not. >> >>>Scott >>> >>>There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! >>> >>>Brian Michalk wrote: >>> >>>>Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic >>> >>>inches, and are >>> >>>>rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to >>> >>a Lycoming >> >>>>0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. >>>>The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high >>> >>>valve overlap. >>> >>>>There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing >>>>volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM >>>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal >>>>>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its >>>>>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. >>>>> >>>>>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really >>>>>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the >>>>>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. >>>>>Its the trend that is of prime importance. >>>>> >>>>>Scott >>>>> >>>>>John Dibble wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He >>>>> >>>>>says I should not expect >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. >>>>>> >>>>>>John >>>>>> >>>>>>steve korney wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>John... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of >>>>>> >>>>>about 1250 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>>>>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it >>>>>> >>>>>out...Keep >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the >>>>>> >>>lead in the >>> >>>>>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Best... Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>> >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>> >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>> >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 19:13:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:13:06 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info References: Message-ID: <3F1595B2.3030803@tnstaafl.net> Alex, You should read the stories about Performance Prop's failing on pushers before plunking down $3000. My story was published in the CA newsletter a year ago. There are quite a few more. The Performance Prop is aptly named, it does perform very well. But I question its durability in a pusher configuration, ESPECIALLY if you have a rearward exhaust system. Scott Alexander Balic wrote: > Ronnie, I have already contacted Craig about it, but wanted to so some > shopping, I hear that the performance props have just a little better > "performance" but that the Cato is built more ruggedly- I'm just going to > use them for flight testing- will go to an MT when I am reasonable certain > that I will not end up sitting on those really expensive blades....... > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:58 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info > > > And while you are shopping for a new prop, don't forget Craig Catto's props. > I have been very pleased with the quality and durability of the Catto prop I > have. The wood grained Performance Prop is pretty for sure, but I like the > idea of a wood prop encased in durable epoxy and fiberglass. > > Catto is at http://www.cattoprops.com/ > > And it is about a thousand less expensive. Its worth waiting a few more > weeks for the value. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG with IO360 C1C > 66 dia 72 pitch = 170 knots and 2500 rpm, but long take off runs (over 2000 > feet) and 500-600 fpm. > 66 dia 70 pitch = 155 knots and 2700 rpm, take off run = 1500 feet and > greater than 1000 fpm climbs. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William C. Cox" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info > > > | Hi Folks, > | > | I have Performance Prop's > | info as (620)394-2059 > | PO Box 486 > | Patagonia, AZ 85624 > | > | Owner is Clark Lydick. > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 19:15:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:15:46 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Engine Combustion Theory ... was: Exhaust systems Message-ID: <109.25c89b6f.2c46f052@aol.com> --part1_109.25c89b6f.2c46f052_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Brian. I printed your comments. That is a good read. Mack --part1_109.25c89b6f.2c46f052_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Brian. I printed your com= ments. That is a good read.
Mack --part1_109.25c89b6f.2c46f052_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 19:26:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:26:29 -0400 Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion In-Reply-To: <71.32f5c266.2c46ebec@aol.com> References: <71.32f5c266.2c46ebec@aol.com> Message-ID: --============_-1153742499==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Mack, What are you using as a sensor for the fire warning? Jack --============_-1153742499==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion
Mack,

What are you using as a sensor for the fire warning?

Jack
--============_-1153742499==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 20:00:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:00:54 +0200 Subject: AW: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion / Velocity Europe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007001c34bcc$95d4f900$aa23a2d9@ah1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C34BDD.595DC900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jack=20 Yes I met Denis at the Fly-in Kemble UK Alfons Alfons Hubmann CAT City Air Team HB-YHV - Velocity173FG - S/N92 Sternengasschen 1 P.O. Box 6620=20 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Message-ID: Okay, so for a carbureted Lycoming O-360, max horsepower is 180 at 2700 RPM. And, for a carbureted Franklin 6A-350-C1R, max horsepower is 198 at 2700 RPM. I'm not Lycoming bashing. I was originally trying to make a clarification on why EGTs are lower on a higher compression engine, and what higher compression does for performancem but the discussion degenerated into differences between Lycoming and Franklin. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 1:09 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > Thats right & wrong.. MAX RPM is 2700, not max HP. > > Its that at 2700 RPM(max recommended rpm) it is producing 200 HP, at sea > level on a standard day. At 2800 RPM its more, at 2900 RPM its even more. > > Scott > > Mike Pollock wrote: > > Lycoming Max HP is rated at 2700 RPM for an O-360 or IO-360. > > > > Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:48 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > > > > At what RPM does the Lycoming make its peak horsepower? > > > > > > My glossy PZL sales brochure shows: > > At 2800 RPM, HP is 205, the certified max horsepower. > > At 2700 RPM, HP is about 198. > > At 2600 RPM, HP is about 192. > > At 2500 RPM, HP is about 184. > > At 2400 RPM, HP is about 175. > > > > If there are other references indicating otherwise, please inform me. > > > > The sales brochure is a little confusing. The HP curve I gave you is > > labelled, "HP full throttle". It peaks, and then they make > another curve > > going down, below this one labelled, "HP prop load." I'm assuming the > > bottom curve is the one obtained by setting a constant torque > equal to where > > the max horsepower is, then closing the throttle. > > > > One graph is full throttle, variable torque, graph below is > constant torque, > > variable throttle. I could be wrong. > > > > Brian Michalk > > Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. > > Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver > > musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>Behalf Of Mike Pollock > >>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:23 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >> > >> > >>"The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > >>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" > >> > >>Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher > >>RPM. > >> > >>Mike > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>Behalf Of Brian Michalk > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >> > >> > >>Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. > >>I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because > >>there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to > >>compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin > >>dyno data, > >>but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the > >>discussion. > >> > >>The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches > >>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. > >>Why? It's > >>in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the > original topic > >>was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on > >>compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and > >>most of the power difference. > >> > >>Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the > >>same amount of > >>air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The > >>tradeoff is that > >>the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of > >>100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation > >>doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out > >>the tailpipe, > >>higher EGT's. > >> > >>The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire > >>inside the > >>cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better > >>intake charge > >>for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely > >>proportional. I can > >>look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and > give you my > >>BSFC. > >> > >>The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as > the intake > >>temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the > fuel. Where > >>can I get one of those? > >> > >>If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and > >>Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text > relating some > >>combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. > >> > >>As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about > >>experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly > >>carbon fiber, > >>and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self > >>lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion > >>temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as > possible. He said > >>they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines > >>siezing, due > >>to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very > >>expensive too. It > >>had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. > >> > >> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM > >>>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >>> > >>> > >>>Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. > >>> > >>>I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. > >>> > >>>We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are > >>>considerably lower. > >>> > >>>Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns > >>>at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic > >> > >>Franklin or not. > >> > >>>Scott > >>> > >>>There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! > >>> > >>>Brian Michalk wrote: > >>> > >>>>Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic > >>> > >>>inches, and are > >>> > >>>>rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to > >>> > >>a Lycoming > >> > >>>>0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. > >>>>The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high > >>> > >>>valve overlap. > >>> > >>>>There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing > >>>>volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >>>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick > >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM > >>>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>>>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal > >>>>>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter > whether its > >>>>>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. > >>>>> > >>>>>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp > is really > >>>>>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the > >>>>>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature > quite bit. > >>>>>Its the trend that is of prime importance. > >>>>> > >>>>>Scott > >>>>> > >>>>>John Dibble wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He > >>>>> > >>>>>says I should not expect > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>John > >>>>>> > >>>>>>steve korney wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>John... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of > >>>>>> > >>>>>about 1250 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... > >>>>>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it > >>>>>> > >>>>>out...Keep > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the > >>>>>> > >>>lead in the > >>> > >>>>>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Best... Steve > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >>>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>To change your email address, visit > >>>>>> > >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>To change your email address, visit > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>To change your email address, visit > >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>>>> > >>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>To change your email address, visit > >>> > >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>> > >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To change your email address, visit > >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>> > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 20:36:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jack Sheehan wrote: > Mack, > What are you using as a sensor for the fire warning? > Jack Another question - just what do you do when the fire warning goes off?? I guess the obvious answer is to look for other indications that your back end is burning. Can you see trailing smoke at night? Given the potential consequences, you almost have to assume worst case scenario from the warning and get on the ground immediately (since that's what you would do if you *knew* you were on fire). That isn't always going to be pretty depending on the weather conditions, hostility of the terrain, etc. Not an easy decision to make since it's *possibly* a false positive or even a fire that *may* not be life threatening. I have the same concerns w/ a fire suppression system - is the fire really out?? Was the plane ever on fire?? On the other hand, to quote Scott Swing from his first retract video, "better than nothing"... However, live video from a small Board or Bullet camera(s) inside the cowl makes sense to me. Either feed the video to an MFD or a separate little flat screen on panel. Total weight would be under 2 lbs. Now the pilot can make some educated decisions. Combine it w/ fire warning and/or suppression and you've got the whole pkg! Pat (sorry for the long post - just thinking in public) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 20:39:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:39:26 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Message-ID: O.K. Let get back on track... Brian...Are you saying that if everthing stays the same but you up the compression from 8.5 to 10.5 on any given engine, the peak EGT's will go down...??? Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 21:06:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:06:30 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004501c34bd5$c0415450$39b070d1@jeffreyhome> Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:36 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > --- Jack Sheehan wrote: > > Mack, > > What are you using as a sensor for the fire warning? > > Jack > > Another question - just what do you do when the fire > warning goes off?? I guess the obvious answer is to > look for other indications that your back end is > burning. Can you see trailing smoke at night? Given > the potential consequences, you almost have to assume > worst case scenario from the warning and get on the > ground immediately (since that's what you would do if > you *knew* you were on fire). That isn't always going > to be pretty depending on the weather conditions, > hostility of the terrain, etc. Not an easy decision to > make since it's *possibly* a false positive or even a > fire that *may* not be life threatening. I have the > same concerns w/ a fire suppression system - is the > fire really out?? Was the plane ever on fire?? On the > other hand, to quote Scott Swing from his first > retract video, "better than nothing"... > However, live video from a small Board or Bullet > camera(s) inside the cowl makes sense to me. Either > feed the video to an MFD or a separate little flat > screen on panel. Total weight would be under 2 lbs. > Now the pilot can make some educated decisions. > Combine it w/ fire warning and/or suppression and > you've got the whole pkg! > > Pat (sorry for the long post - just thinking in > public) > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 21:31:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:31:32 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION References: <3F155FF8.2060305@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <001d01c34bd9$3fe451a0$9865fea9@tungsten.com> One more thing to keep in mid about constant speed props is complexity one more thing to watch and maintain. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:23 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION > Alan's a good guy and knows a great deal but he's also got an ego as big > as the state of Florida. He's very attached to his ideas. > > I completely agree that with a IO540 your climb performance will be good > either way. > > But, for all around performance you can't beat a constant speed prop. > No way, no how. You can tune a fixed pitch prop to beat a constant > speed in one phase of flight: climb, flat out, etc.. But your not > building a racer. I wish I could afford a CS prop for my Std RG., I'd > buy it today. > > > He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props > > in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it > > will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. > > I'd recommend a Catto if your were going fixed pitch. > > > He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get > > closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will > > actually ?suck out? air creating a cooling effect. > > Maybe, maybe not. I think this kind of thing requires a 1,000 hours of > tweaking to get it right. > > > He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two > > ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect > > inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it ? again > > aiding in the cooling of the engine. > > Same comment as above. > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 21:37:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:37:36 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: <3F1594D3.8030102@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: You know Scott, I am not as stupid as you must think I am, but frankly I don't care what you think. You need to read the questions below before you start your comments on slamming people. I was answering a question that "YOU" did not ask. Yes, I should have added more to the information, but I was speaking of an aircraft engine, not a helicopter! By-bye! Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 1:09 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems Thats right & wrong.. MAX RPM is 2700, not max HP. Its that at 2700 RPM(max recommended rpm) it is producing 200 HP, at sea level on a standard day. At 2800 RPM its more, at 2900 RPM its even more. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > Lycoming Max HP is rated at 2700 RPM for an O-360 or IO-360. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:48 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems > > > At what RPM does the Lycoming make its peak horsepower? > > > My glossy PZL sales brochure shows: > At 2800 RPM, HP is 205, the certified max horsepower. > At 2700 RPM, HP is about 198. > At 2600 RPM, HP is about 192. > At 2500 RPM, HP is about 184. > At 2400 RPM, HP is about 175. > > If there are other references indicating otherwise, please inform me. > > The sales brochure is a little confusing. The HP curve I gave you is > labelled, "HP full throttle". It peaks, and then they make another curve > going down, below this one labelled, "HP prop load." I'm assuming the > bottom curve is the one obtained by setting a constant torque equal to where > the max horsepower is, then closing the throttle. > > One graph is full throttle, variable torque, graph below is constant torque, > variable throttle. I could be wrong. > > Brian Michalk > Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. > Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver > musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Mike Pollock >>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:23 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>"The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches >>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" >> >>Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher >>RPM. >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Brian Michalk >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. >>I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because >>there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to >>compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin >>dyno data, >>but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the >>discussion. >> >>The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches >>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. >>Why? It's >>in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the original topic >>was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on >>compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and >>most of the power difference. >> >>Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the >>same amount of >>air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The >>tradeoff is that >>the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of >>100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation >>doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out >>the tailpipe, >>higher EGT's. >> >>The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire >>inside the >>cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better >>intake charge >>for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely >>proportional. I can >>look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and give you my >>BSFC. >> >>The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as the intake >>temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the fuel. Where >>can I get one of those? >> >>If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and >>Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text relating some >>combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. >> >>As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about >>experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly >>carbon fiber, >>and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self >>lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion >>temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as possible. He said >>they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines >>siezing, due >>to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very >>expensive too. It >>had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM >>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>> >>> >>>Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. >>> >>>I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. >>> >>>We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are >>>considerably lower. >>> >>>Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns >>>at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic >> >>Franklin or not. >> >>>Scott >>> >>>There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! >>> >>>Brian Michalk wrote: >>> >>>>Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic >>> >>>inches, and are >>> >>>>rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to >>> >>a Lycoming >> >>>>0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. >>>>The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high >>> >>>valve overlap. >>> >>>>There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing >>>>volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM >>>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal >>>>>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter whether its >>>>>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. >>>>> >>>>>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp is really >>>>>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the >>>>>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature quite bit. >>>>>Its the trend that is of prime importance. >>>>> >>>>>Scott >>>>> >>>>>John Dibble wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He >>>>> >>>>>says I should not expect >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. >>>>>> >>>>>>John >>>>>> >>>>>>steve korney wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>John... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of >>>>>> >>>>>about 1250 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>>>>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it >>>>>> >>>>>out...Keep >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the >>>>>> >>>lead in the >>> >>>>>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Best... Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>> >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>> >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>> >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 21:37:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:37:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: <3F1595B2.3030803@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Alex, We have been using Performance props since day one without a failure (other than standing the plane on it's back during maintenance) and the durability is not bad either. 625 hours and plowing away with our Performance prop. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 1:13 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info Alex, You should read the stories about Performance Prop's failing on pushers before plunking down $3000. My story was published in the CA newsletter a year ago. There are quite a few more. The Performance Prop is aptly named, it does perform very well. But I question its durability in a pusher configuration, ESPECIALLY if you have a rearward exhaust system. Scott Alexander Balic wrote: > Ronnie, I have already contacted Craig about it, but wanted to so some > shopping, I hear that the performance props have just a little better > "performance" but that the Cato is built more ruggedly- I'm just going to > use them for flight testing- will go to an MT when I am reasonable certain > that I will not end up sitting on those really expensive blades....... > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:58 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info > > > And while you are shopping for a new prop, don't forget Craig Catto's props. > I have been very pleased with the quality and durability of the Catto prop I > have. The wood grained Performance Prop is pretty for sure, but I like the > idea of a wood prop encased in durable epoxy and fiberglass. > > Catto is at http://www.cattoprops.com/ > > And it is about a thousand less expensive. Its worth waiting a few more > weeks for the value. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG with IO360 C1C > 66 dia 72 pitch = 170 knots and 2500 rpm, but long take off runs (over 2000 > feet) and 500-600 fpm. > 66 dia 70 pitch = 155 knots and 2700 rpm, take off run = 1500 feet and > greater than 1000 fpm climbs. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William C. Cox" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info > > > | Hi Folks, > | > | I have Performance Prop's > | info as (620)394-2059 > | PO Box 486 > | Patagonia, AZ 85624 > | > | Owner is Clark Lydick. > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:00:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:00:32 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems References: Message-ID: <3F15BCF0.7060303@tnstaafl.net> Yes if you put 10.5 to 1 pistons in a Lyc O360 you would get about the same HP at the same RPM as you do in a Franklin 6A-350-C1R EGT's would not change much. < 50 degrees F Scott Brian Michalk wrote: > Okay, so for a carbureted Lycoming O-360, max horsepower is 180 at 2700 > RPM. > And, for a carbureted Franklin 6A-350-C1R, max horsepower is 198 at 2700 > RPM. > > I'm not Lycoming bashing. I was originally trying to make a clarification > on why EGTs are lower on a higher compression engine, and what higher > compression does for performancem but the discussion degenerated into > differences between Lycoming and Franklin. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 1:09 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >> >> >>Thats right & wrong.. MAX RPM is 2700, not max HP. >> >>Its that at 2700 RPM(max recommended rpm) it is producing 200 HP, at sea >>level on a standard day. At 2800 RPM its more, at 2900 RPM its even more. >> >>Scott >> >>Mike Pollock wrote: >> >>>Lycoming Max HP is rated at 2700 RPM for an O-360 or IO-360. >>> >>>Mike >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>Behalf Of Brian Michalk >>>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:48 AM >>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>> >>> >>>At what RPM does the Lycoming make its peak horsepower? >>> >>> >>>My glossy PZL sales brochure shows: >>>At 2800 RPM, HP is 205, the certified max horsepower. >>>At 2700 RPM, HP is about 198. >>>At 2600 RPM, HP is about 192. >>>At 2500 RPM, HP is about 184. >>>At 2400 RPM, HP is about 175. >>> >>>If there are other references indicating otherwise, please inform me. >>> >>>The sales brochure is a little confusing. The HP curve I gave you is >>>labelled, "HP full throttle". It peaks, and then they make >> >>another curve >> >>>going down, below this one labelled, "HP prop load." I'm assuming the >>>bottom curve is the one obtained by setting a constant torque >> >>equal to where >> >>>the max horsepower is, then closing the throttle. >>> >>>One graph is full throttle, variable torque, graph below is >> >>constant torque, >> >>>variable throttle. I could be wrong. >>> >>> Brian Michalk >>>Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. >>>Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver >>>musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>Behalf Of Mike Pollock >>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:23 AM >>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>> >>>> >>>>"The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches >>>>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. Why?" >>>> >>>>Because RPMxTorque = HP and the Franklin is getting its HP at the higher >>>>RPM. >>>> >>>>Mike >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>Behalf Of Brian Michalk >>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM >>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>> >>>> >>>>Certainly, fuel burns at a specific temperature at a specific condition. >>>>I was comparing carbureted engines(O360, not IO360) on purpose, because >>>>there doesn't exist a certified fuel injected Franklin against which to >>>>compare. I could cite someone's homebuilt fuel injected Franklin >>>>dyno data, >>>>but that's only a single data point, and is not very relevant to the >>>>discussion. >>>> >>>>The point I was trying to make is that the Franklin is 10 cubic inches >>>>smaller than the Lycoming, yet it has more certified horspower. >>>>Why? It's >>>>in the compression ratio, and the cam design. Although the >>> >>original topic >> >>>>was exhaust gas temperature, I'll keep my comments focused mainly on >>>>compression ratio, because I feel that is the reason for lower EGTs, and >>>>most of the power difference. >>>> >>>>Increasing the compression ratio increases horsepower for the >>>>same amount of >>>>air/fuel. But you are right, there is no free lunch. The >>>>tradeoff is that >>>>the Franklin can only use 100 avgas. Not good considering the future of >>>>100LL. It's either that, or retard the timing to make sure detonation >>>>doesn't happen. Retard the timing, more burning mass goes out >>>>the tailpipe, >>>>higher EGT's. >>>> >>>>The Franklin is just a very efficient engine. It keeps the fire >>>>inside the >>>>cylinders longer, and scavenges better, meaning a much better >>>>intake charge >>>>for the next bang. EGT and BSFC usually are inversely >>>>proportional. I can >>>>look up my engines book as it was run on the factory dyno and >>> >>give you my >> >>>>BSFC. >>>> >>>>The most efficient engine would have an EGT that is the same as >>> >>the intake >> >>>>temperature. That would mean 100% energy extraction from the >>> >>fuel. Where >> >>>>can I get one of those? >>>> >>>>If you want, I can provide references. I have a copy of Taylor, and >>>>Heywood. I'm sure I can find a chart somewhere in the text >>> >>relating some >> >>>>combination of EGT/torque/compression ratio/BSFC. >>>> >>>>As a side note, I was talking to a NASA engineer years ago about >>>>experimental engines they were testing. The engine was mostly >>>>carbon fiber, >>>>and ceramic. There was no oil, and no cooling system. Completely self >>>>lubricating. They wanted to let the engine come up to combustion >>>>temperatures to extract as much energy from the fuel as >>> >>possible. He said >> >>>>they got some good BSFC numbers, but had problems with engines >>>>siezing, due >>>>to the expansion of various materials. The fuel was very >>>>expensive too. It >>>>had to resist pre-ignition due to the incredible heat. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:06 PM >>>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Well, my IO360 is 200HP, so not much difference there. >>>>> >>>>>I think there's something fishy in Denmark about this A&P's remark. >>>>> >>>>>We are also not talking about cruise RPM's but takeoff rpms, which are >>>>>considerably lower. >>>>> >>>>>Any way you cut it, a specific air-fuel mix at a certain pressure burns >>>>>at a certain temperature. I don't care if its in a magic >>>> >>>>Franklin or not. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Scott >>>>> >>>>>There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! >>>>> >>>>>Brian Michalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Franklin engines are 10.5:1 compression ratio with 350 cubic >>>>> >>>>>inches, and are >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>rated at 220 horsepower, normally aspirated. Compare this to >>>>> >>>>a Lycoming >>>> >>>> >>>>>>0-360 rated at 180 horsepower. More heat(energy) goes into the work. >>>>>>The second thing that could cause low EGT is the very high >>>>> >>>>>valve overlap. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>There is a lot of scavenging going on in a Franklin cylinder, causing >>>>>>volumetric efficiencies of 103% at the cruise RPMS. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>>>>>>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:09 AM >>>>>>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>>>>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This sounds very odd. I think av gas in a near optimal >>>>>>>mixture(Stociometric?) burns at 1500+ F. It doesn't matter >>>>>> >>whether its >> >>>>>>>in your Honda Civic, your lawn mower or aircraft engine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Maybe its the placement of the EGT probe. The absolute temp >>>>>> >>is really >> >>>>>>>of not much concern because where you stick the probe in and how the >>>>>>>exhaust flows in the pipe will effect the probe temperature >>>>>> >>quite bit. >> >>>>>>>Its the trend that is of prime importance. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>>John Dibble wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I just spoke with an A/P that works on Franklin engines. He >>>>>>> >>>>>>>says I should not expect >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>my EGT to exceed 1000 F. Franklin engines run cooler. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>John >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>steve korney wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>John... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>In that case your running way to rich...You should see temps of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>about 1250 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>to 1300 (f) on take-off... >>>>>>>>>Maybe that's the reason it stumbles so much on run-up...Lean it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>out...Keep >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>the temps above 1150 on the ground or you won't vaporize the >>>>>>>> >>>>>lead in the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>fuel and it will foul your plugs... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Best... Steve >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>>>>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>> >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:02:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:02:48 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> <004501c34bd5$c0415450$39b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <3F15BD78.1070408@tnstaafl.net> Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... Scott Jeffrey Clough wrote: > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Shea" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:36 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > >>--- Jack Sheehan wrote: >> >>>Mack, >>>What are you using as a sensor for the fire warning? >>>Jack >> >>Another question - just what do you do when the fire >>warning goes off?? I guess the obvious answer is to >>look for other indications that your back end is >>burning. Can you see trailing smoke at night? Given >>the potential consequences, you almost have to assume >>worst case scenario from the warning and get on the >>ground immediately (since that's what you would do if >>you *knew* you were on fire). That isn't always going >>to be pretty depending on the weather conditions, >>hostility of the terrain, etc. Not an easy decision to >>make since it's *possibly* a false positive or even a >>fire that *may* not be life threatening. I have the >>same concerns w/ a fire suppression system - is the >>fire really out?? Was the plane ever on fire?? On the >>other hand, to quote Scott Swing from his first >>retract video, "better than nothing"... >> However, live video from a small Board or Bullet >>camera(s) inside the cowl makes sense to me. Either >>feed the video to an MFD or a separate little flat >>screen on panel. Total weight would be under 2 lbs. >>Now the pilot can make some educated decisions. >>Combine it w/ fire warning and/or suppression and >>you've got the whole pkg! >> >>Pat (sorry for the long post - just thinking in >>public) >> >> >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >>Do you Yahoo!? >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >>http://sbc.yahoo.com >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:13:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:53 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Exhaust systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All else being equal, with no detonation ... yes. According to Heywood, increasing compression ratio up to about 10:1 results in lower EGTs. If you continue to increase compression ratio above 10:1, the EGTs will increase. > > O.K. Let get back on track... > > Brian...Are you saying that if everthing stays the same but you up the > compression from 8.5 to 10.5 on any given engine, the peak EGT's will go > down...??? > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:36:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:36:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F15C561.605E0A1@comcast.net> Pat, > However, live video from a small Board or Bullet > camera(s) inside the cowl makes sense to me. Either > feed the video to an MFD or a separate little flat > screen on panel. Total weight would be under 2 lbs. Having recently installed a video surveillance system, I too believe a small video camera could be quite useful for this application. Infrared cameras are available, some with their own light source. Depending on where you mount the camera, you might even be able to see who's following you! Best, Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:35:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:35:58 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Hg1qFdv4EzePP9KSbG/kfQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hey Mike- I remember that you were really happy with yours, I called over there to Performance, seems they have more work then they can handle, so good for them! :) they said the wait would be until October for a prop, and the cost would be around 2,500 plus crating and shipping - don't think I can wait that long, (which is good for me! ) so I will probably go with Cato - it is about $900 cheaper too, and I am not really that interested in ultimate performance, since I only need it to push my plane around for taxi and flight testing- then I will change to the MT. got lots of runway at DTO, so either should work the same for my purposes..... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:21 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info Hi Alex, Clark from Performance Propellers can be reached at (520) 394-2059. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:37 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info Anybody have the website and/or phone for Performance propellers? trying to google them brings up way to much- like naming and ice cream company "good ice cream" -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:06 PM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION You know what they say about opinions? They're like Assh---s ... everybody's got one! My problem is ... they're all different. I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won't be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there. He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed. He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually "suck out" air creating a cooling effect. He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it - again aiding in the cooling of the engine. He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable. Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this: DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE? I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS. Thanks in advance. Tom Martino www.troubleshoter.com --Boundary_(ID_Hg1qFdv4EzePP9KSbG/kfQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hey Mike-

I remember that you were really happy with yours, I called over there to Performance, seems they have more work then they can handle, so good for them! :)    they said the wait would be until October for a prop, and the cost would be around 2,500 plus crating and shipping - don't think I can wait that long, (which is good for me! ) so I will probably go with Cato - it is about $900 cheaper too, and I am not really that interested in ultimate performance, since I only need it to push my plane around for taxi and flight testing- then I will change to the MT. got lots of runway at DTO, so either should work the same for my purposes.....

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:21 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info

Hi Alex,

Clark from Performance Propellers can be reached at (520) 394-2059.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:37 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info

Anybody have the website and/or phone for Performance propellers? trying to google them brings up way to much- like naming and ice cream company "good ice cream"

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:06 PM
To: reflector@www.tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:CONFUSION

You know what they say about opinions? They’re like Assh---s ... everybody’s got one! My problem is ... they’re all different.

I have a 173 Elite RG with an IO-540 engine. I just spoke to Alan Shaw and he swears that a constant speed prop is NOT necessary. He says the added weight is not worth it and it will actually cut down your cruise speeds a bit. He said climb performance won’t be a problem with that engine ... and the Velocity will be better off without the extra weight back there.

He recommended a three-blade performance prop made by Performance Props in Arizona. He said it should be put on a five inch extension and it will fit perfectly with the cowl he designed.

He said the fixed pitch also helps with cooling because it can get closer to the big cowl openings on each side of the prop and it will actually “suck out” air creating a cooling effect.

He also said that the exhaust pointing straight out the back through two ports (bottom left and right) will actually cause a venturi effect inside the cowl ... which will force cool air to exit around it – again aiding in the cooling of the engine.

He talked for a long time and sounded completely confident and knowledgeable.

Since his advice seems to be contrary to a lot of other opinions ... my question to you is this:

DOES IT SOUND REASONABLE?

I am getting to a point where I need to make some decisions. Any feedback will be appreciated. The discussions I have seen here are very intelligent and I want to take advantage of your BRAINS.

Thanks in advance.

Tom Martino

www.troubleshoter.com

--Boundary_(ID_Hg1qFdv4EzePP9KSbG/kfQ)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:43:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:43:53 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> <004501c34bd5$c0415450$39b070d1@jeffreyhome> <3F15BD78.1070408@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F15C71A.51A4A621@comcast.net> Scott, > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find some that'll take a lot of heat. > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you confirmation. Dave Black From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:43:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:43:14 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: <3F1595B2.3030803@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Scott, I am evidently going to go with Catto anyway, since when I called Performance, they were backed up until October. My exhaust is going to be a little different than most- I am running the SVX with a turbocharger/intercooler, and it seems like my radiator will be mounted below the engine, so I will install the belly scoop, to take in air for the radiator, use 1 top NACA for the intercooler, and the second for oil and some to the radiator maybe. I was thinking of just letting all of that air go out the rear through a squeeze flap, and since my exhaust will be 6 into 1 for the turbo, I was thinking of running that single pipe out the squeeze flap too- need to see about that though- otherwise it will go out one of the XL exhaust holes in the rear. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 12:13 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info Alex, You should read the stories about Performance Prop's failing on pushers before plunking down $3000. My story was published in the CA newsletter a year ago. There are quite a few more. The Performance Prop is aptly named, it does perform very well. But I question its durability in a pusher configuration, ESPECIALLY if you have a rearward exhaust system. Scott Alexander Balic wrote: > Ronnie, I have already contacted Craig about it, but wanted to so some > shopping, I hear that the performance props have just a little better > "performance" but that the Cato is built more ruggedly- I'm just going to > use them for flight testing- will go to an MT when I am reasonable certain > that I will not end up sitting on those really expensive blades....... > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:58 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info > > > And while you are shopping for a new prop, don't forget Craig Catto's props. > I have been very pleased with the quality and durability of the Catto prop I > have. The wood grained Performance Prop is pretty for sure, but I like the > idea of a wood prop encased in durable epoxy and fiberglass. > > Catto is at http://www.cattoprops.com/ > > And it is about a thousand less expensive. Its worth waiting a few more > weeks for the value. > > Ronnie Brown > 173 Elite RG with IO360 C1C > 66 dia 72 pitch = 170 knots and 2500 rpm, but long take off runs (over 2000 > feet) and 500-600 fpm. > 66 dia 70 pitch = 155 knots and 2700 rpm, take off run = 1500 feet and > greater than 1000 fpm climbs. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William C. Cox" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info > > > | Hi Folks, > | > | I have Performance Prop's > | info as (620)394-2059 > | PO Box 486 > | Patagonia, AZ 85624 > | > | Owner is Clark Lydick. > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 23:01:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:01:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Yo In-Reply-To: <3F15BE6D.9000108@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Scott, I apoligize for my short remarks as I must have misunderstood your post. Yes, HP goes up with increasing RPM until the slope of the torque available at the higher RPMs is decreasing too fast to keep the HP from increasing any further. But you are dead on about the HP going up with RPM increase. HP = Torque x RPM .. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:07 PM To: m.pollock@verizon.net Subject: Yo Mike, I was not trying to slam you in any way. I was just trying to point out that HP can be raised by turning an engine faster. There are Lyc. IO360's that are rated from 180 to 210 HP, the only difference is how fast the certification lets you run them(RPM). Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 22:58:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:58:13 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Oil Pressure Switch References: Message-ID: <3F15CA75.24FAB6CC@dixie-net.com> I'm seeing high fuel pressure and want to replace the pressure switch. It's a VDO switch, but I'm not sure what the exact model number is. Can anyone tell me which one I need and where to find it? John From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 23:34:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:34:40 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> <004501c34bd5$c0415450$39b070d1@jeffreyhome> <3F15BD78.1070408@tnstaafl.net> <3F15C71A.51A4A621@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001001c34bea$729629a0$4d2bc1d1@jeffreyhome> Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal circumstances...ya want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there is a fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about the little glass window! > Scott, > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find some > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you confirmation. > > Dave Black > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 23:39:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:39:17 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: Depending on the flight condition, the window breaking might shoot a column of flame right into the passenger compartment. I believe the engine compartment has higher air pressure than the cabin. Hiroo -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal circumstances...ya want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there is a fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about the little glass window! > Scott, > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find some > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you confirmation. > > Dave Black > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 16 23:54:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:54:04 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: Message-ID: <000a01c34bed$28aacb40$4d2bc1d1@jeffreyhome> Ya might be right...I have some 1/2 inch thck glass around here...hard to imagine a very small 'peep' window would cause any problems.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hiroo Umeno" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > Depending on the flight condition, the window breaking might shoot a > column of flame right into the passenger compartment. I believe the > engine compartment has higher air pressure than the cabin. > > Hiroo > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:35 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal > circumstances...ya > want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there > is a > fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about > the > little glass window! > > > > Scott, > > > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find > some > > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you > confirmation. > > > > Dave Black > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 00:12:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:12:33 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Oil Pressure Switch References: <3F15CA75.24FAB6CC@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <01d801c34bef$bd4b4700$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Are you sure it is a pressure switch and not a sensor? I would think that your RMI Monitor came with an analog pressure sensor made by VDO. Try http://www.egauges.com/vdo_sgrp.asp?Subgroup=Pressure_Sender and see if you can find a match to your sensor. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 5:58 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Oil Pressure Switch | I'm seeing high fuel pressure and want to replace the pressure switch. It's a VDO | switch, but I'm not sure what the exact model number is. Can anyone tell me which one | I need and where to find it? | | John | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 00:16:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:16:27 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info Message-ID: <141.1597455e.2c4736cb@aol.com> --part1_141.1597455e.2c4736cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex, Are you building an RG or a FG ? The reason I ask is that I installed a big NACA underneath my V for my lower radiator. It sure beats the way a belly scoop looks ( I made a mock up). It should really work fantastic on the underside too. Down side: it won't fit in a RG. Kurt Winker Aluminum V-6 173 FGE --part1_141.1597455e.2c4736cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex,

Are you building an RG or a FG ? The reason I ask is that I installed= a big NACA underneath my V for my lower radiator. It sure beat= s the way a belly scoop looks ( I made a mock up). It should really wo= rk fantastic on the underside too.
Down side: it won't fit in a RG.

Kurt Winker
Aluminum V-6 173 FGE --part1_141.1597455e.2c4736cb_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 01:04:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:04:25 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You can get special quartz glass/Pyrex glass, that will withstand the heat that can be applied to it from the back of the firewall- I have a closed firebox fireplace that uses quartz glass in two large panels (about 18"x18")in the firebox doors and last winter, I built a fire so large in there that the steel log support crumpled and there was so much heat inside that the IR actually almost set the shielded oak door handles on fire ( they were smoking profusely so I doused them before they ignited) these glass panels are now about 20 years old, and they see fire at least 10-15 times each year, no cracks, no distortion. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:39 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Depending on the flight condition, the window breaking might shoot a column of flame right into the passenger compartment. I believe the engine compartment has higher air pressure than the cabin. Hiroo -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal circumstances...ya want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there is a fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about the little glass window! > Scott, > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find some > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you confirmation. > > Dave Black > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 01:10:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:10:30 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info In-Reply-To: <141.1597455e.2c4736cb@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Qu6aVDjFXj/fdzPYtqEe8g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kurt, I received a large NACA belly scoop with my kit - it is an XLRG, and the NACA is kind of external, IE the bottom of the plenum is the external surface of the belly of the aircraft, and then it needs to be blendes in- I haven't put it on yet, but I am pretty sure that I will, I just cant move all of that air from the top behind the engine to the radiator very easily, plus I will need a lot of cool air for my intercooler anyway. I think I have seen either yours of someone else's that pit a submerged NACA on the belly, but it needs an inch or 2 that would go right through the gear bulkhead and sump tank of the RG, this external one should not have this problem....... I'll post some pictures when I get to that.... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 5:16 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info Alex, Are you building an RG or a FG ? The reason I ask is that I installed a big NACA underneath my V for my lower radiator. It sure beats the way a belly scoop looks ( I made a mock up). It should really work fantastic on the underside too. Down side: it won't fit in a RG. Kurt Winker Aluminum V-6 173 FGE --Boundary_(ID_Qu6aVDjFXj/fdzPYtqEe8g) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Kurt,

I received a large NACA belly scoop with my kit - it is an XLRG, and the NACA is kind of external, IE the bottom of the plenum is the external surface of the belly of the aircraft, and then it needs to be blendes in- I haven't put it on yet, but I am pretty sure that I will, I just cant move all of that air from the top behind the engine to the radiator very easily, plus I will need a lot of cool air for my intercooler anyway. I think I have seen either yours of someone else's that pit a submerged NACA on the belly, but it needs an inch or 2 that would go right through the gear bulkhead and sump tank of the RG, this external one should not have this problem....... I'll post some pictures when I get to that....

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 5:16 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Performance Prop contact info

Alex,

Are you building an RG or a FG ? The reason I ask is that I installed a big NACA underneath my V for my lower radiator. It sure beats the way a belly scoop looks ( I made a mock up). It should really work fantastic on the underside too.
Down side: it won't fit in a RG.

Kurt Winker
Aluminum V-6 173 FGE
--Boundary_(ID_Qu6aVDjFXj/fdzPYtqEe8g)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 02:58:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:58:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> <004501c34bd5$c0415450$39b070d1@jeffreyhome> <3F15BD78.1070408@tnstaafl.net> <3F15C71A.51A4A621@comcast.net> <001001c34bea$729629a0$4d2bc1d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <3F1602B5.56DE06FD@comcast.net> Jeffrey, > Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal > circumstances...ya want it to be able to verify there is NOT > a fire back there...if there is a fire back there you are in > bad shape regardless and then who cares about the > little glass window! Good point! I wouldn't suggest plexiglass, though! Dave From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 03:25:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:25:00 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030716193631.84426.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> <004501c34bd5$c0415450$39b070d1@jeffreyhome> <3F15BD78.1070408@tnstaafl.net> <3F15C71A.51A4A621@comcast.net> <001001c34bea$729629a0$4d2bc1d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <008301c34c0a$9fb30780$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> But if there's a fire back there, you don't want it to join you in the cabin! I would be VERY careful with modifications that might compromise the integrity of the firewall. Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Clough" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal circumstances...ya > want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there is a > fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about the > little glass window! > > > > Scott, > > > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find some > > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you > confirmation. > > > > Dave Black > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 03:36:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:36:08 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: Message-ID: <009401c34c0c$2ddd4420$0100a8c0@mshome.net> The replacement glass for a gas grill is tough enough but how do you cut it? Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Balic" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:04 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > You can get special quartz glass/Pyrex glass, that will withstand the heat > that can be applied to it from the back of the firewall- I have a closed > firebox fireplace that uses quartz glass in two large panels (about > 18"x18")in the firebox doors and last winter, I built a fire so large in > there that the steel log support crumpled and there was so much heat inside > that the IR actually almost set the shielded oak door handles on fire ( they > were smoking profusely so I doused them before they ignited) these glass > panels are now about 20 years old, and they see fire at least 10-15 times > each year, no cracks, no distortion. > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:39 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > Depending on the flight condition, the window breaking might shoot a > column of flame right into the passenger compartment. I believe the > engine compartment has higher air pressure than the cabin. > > Hiroo > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:35 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal > circumstances...ya > want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there > is a > fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about > the > little glass window! > > > > Scott, > > > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find > some > > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you > confirmation. > > > > Dave Black > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 04:06:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:06:39 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: <009401c34c0c$2ddd4420$0100a8c0@mshome.net> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716195713.03ab2260@mail.adelphia.net> 2 ways. First is with a waterjet. Second is cut it before it's tempered. Both are nearly impossible to do at home, both are easy for a good glass shop. There's also the practical matter of getting back to the firewall to look, while you're flying the airplane and the fire alarm is going off. At 10:36 PM 7/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >The replacement glass for a gas grill is tough enough but how do you cut it? >Wayne >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alexander Balic" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:04 PM >Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > > You can get special quartz glass/Pyrex glass, that will withstand the heat > > that can be applied to it from the back of the firewall- I have a closed > > firebox fireplace that uses quartz glass in two large panels (about > > 18"x18")in the firebox doors and last winter, I built a fire so large in > > there that the steel log support crumpled and there was so much heat >inside > > that the IR actually almost set the shielded oak door handles on fire ( >they > > were smoking profusely so I doused them before they ignited) these glass > > panels are now about 20 years old, and they see fire at least 10-15 times > > each year, no cracks, no distortion. > > > > Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:39 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > > > > Depending on the flight condition, the window breaking might shoot a > > column of flame right into the passenger compartment. I believe the > > engine compartment has higher air pressure than the cabin. > > > > Hiroo > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > > Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:35 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > > Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal > > circumstances...ya > > want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there > > is a > > fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about > > the > > little glass window! > > > > > > > Scott, > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > > > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > > > > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find > > some > > > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > > > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > > > > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you > > confirmation. > > > > > > Dave Black > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 04:44:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:44:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716195713.03ab2260@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: I would doubt that it is tempered glass- it would loose temper really fast at the temperatures that it is designed to see, (glass it tempered by heating it and then misting cold water onto the surface to set up a great deal of tension in the glass) I will bet that it can be cut just like regular glass- take it to any glass shop - they have all the tools already, and if you want a circle, they can do that for you easily. but Richard has a good point unless you have a clear path back to the firewall, it will be difficult to look back there and see very much- maybe the camera is the way to go? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of richard@riley.net Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:07 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) 2 ways. First is with a waterjet. Second is cut it before it's tempered. Both are nearly impossible to do at home, both are easy for a good glass shop. There's also the practical matter of getting back to the firewall to look, while you're flying the airplane and the fire alarm is going off. At 10:36 PM 7/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >The replacement glass for a gas grill is tough enough but how do you cut it? >Wayne >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alexander Balic" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:04 PM >Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > > You can get special quartz glass/Pyrex glass, that will withstand the heat > > that can be applied to it from the back of the firewall- I have a closed > > firebox fireplace that uses quartz glass in two large panels (about > > 18"x18")in the firebox doors and last winter, I built a fire so large in > > there that the steel log support crumpled and there was so much heat >inside > > that the IR actually almost set the shielded oak door handles on fire ( >they > > were smoking profusely so I doused them before they ignited) these glass > > panels are now about 20 years old, and they see fire at least 10-15 times > > each year, no cracks, no distortion. > > > > Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:39 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > > > > Depending on the flight condition, the window breaking might shoot a > > column of flame right into the passenger compartment. I believe the > > engine compartment has higher air pressure than the cabin. > > > > Hiroo > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > > Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:35 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > > > > Guess it doesn't have to take that much heat under normal > > circumstances...ya > > want it to be able to verify there is NOT a fire back there...if there > > is a > > fire back there you are in bad shape regardless and then who cares about > > the > > little glass window! > > > > > > > Scott, > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever glassed in a small glass window in their firewall? > > > > > > > Now that is an interesting and KISS solution. > > > > > > Definitely! Guess you need to check with glass manufacturers to find > > some > > > that'll take a lot of heat. > > > > > > > Of course I'm always looking out the front window..... > > > > > > Good idea. But if the fire warning went off, this would sure give you > > confirmation. > > > > > > Dave Black > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 05:07:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:07:59 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C19.02AE2ACF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank God the general public doesn't ready these postings! A window in the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? =20 It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just waiting to burst into flames. Come on ... lets get real. =20 We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires to begin with, then we should explore realistic detection equipment that won't require peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. =20 I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my passengers: =20 "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" =20 Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine compartment. =20 After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system would be in order. =20 Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating? =20 =20 Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven glass when smoke and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from soot. =20 I have to believe that there are other modifications we can do besides a fire window. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C19.02AE2ACF Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank God the general public doesn’t ready = these postings! A window in = the firewall to see a fire? Are we = going mad?

It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just waiting to burst into flames. = Come on ... lets get = real.

We should put all of our efforts into preventing = fires to begin with, then we should explore realistic = detection equipment that won’t require peaking through a freekin window = behind the back seat.

I can jus imagine how that window will go over with = my passengers:

“Tom, isn’t = that nice a rear window!”

Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine compartment.

After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression = system would be in order.

Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating?

Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven = glass when smoke and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from soot.

I have to believe that there are other modifications = we can do besides a fire window.

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C19.02AE2ACF-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 08:59:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:59:34 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: Message-ID: <003401c34c39$f1b9d340$37b070d1@jeffreyhome> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C34BF6.4E6BEE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn't mean to start a war...was just wondering ...wasn't really = thinking of a 'window' per se, just a very small piece of glass = installed in the firewall which wouldn't weaken the firewall anymore = than all the holes we drill through it. Have you ever actually had a = fire in your oven or grill....even if the glass is blackened you can = still see flames and blackened glass would likely mean fire to me and = warrant landing for investigation. It is not a window for looking at = your fine engine installation or the view from the back of the plane, = just a simple way to double check should, (despite all your efforts at = preventing a fire), your alarm system (thermal fuses or whatever) go = off. Certified airplane mfrs all do their best to prevent fires(don't = they?), but they still DO happen (but they are much more obvious). With = a pusher you are just likely to not know about it for a while = longer...maybe at which point it is too late. I have never seen a plane with an electrical fire, oil fire or fuel = fire, but I suspect they all produce a lot of black smoke..... I have a = small convex mirror I was planning on attaching to one of my leading = edge vortillons for veiwing (again..just a simple double check) my RG = status...wonder if I could see smoke coming from the cowl? J Clough ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:07 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Thank God the general public doesn't ready these postings! A window = in the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? =20 It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just waiting to burst = into flames. Come on ... lets get real. =20 We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires to begin with, = then we should explore realistic detection equipment that won't require = peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. =20 I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my passengers: =20 "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" =20 Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine compartment. =20 After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system would be in = order. =20 Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating? =20 =20 Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven glass when smoke = and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from soot. =20 I have to believe that there are other modifications we can do besides = a fire window. =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C34BF6.4E6BEE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I didn't mean to start a war...was just = wondering=20 ...wasn't really thinking of a 'window' per se, just a very small piece = of glass=20 installed in the firewall which wouldn't weaken the firewall anymore = than all=20 the holes we drill through it.     Have you ever = actually=20 had a fire in your oven or grill....even if the glass is blackened you = can still=20 see flames and blackened glass would likely mean fire to me and warrant = landing=20 for investigation. It is not a window for looking at your fine = engine=20 installation or the view from the back of the plane, just a simple way = to=20 double check should, (despite all your efforts at preventing a = fire), your=20 alarm system (thermal fuses or whatever) go off. Certified airplane = mfrs=20 all do their best to prevent fires(don't they?), but they still DO = happen (but=20 they are much more obvious). With a pusher you are just likely to not = know about=20 it for a while longer...maybe at which point it is too=20 late.

   I have never seen a plane with = an=20 electrical fire, oil fire or fuel fire, but I suspect they all = produce a=20 lot of black smoke..... I have a small convex mirror I was planning on = attaching=20 to one of my leading edge vortillons for veiwing (again..just a simple = double=20 check) my RG status...wonder if I could see smoke coming from the=20 cowl?   J Clough

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
To: reflector@www.tvbf.org =

Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 8:07=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire = warning (was=20 explosion)

Thank God the general = public=20 doesn=92t ready these postings! =20 A window in the firewall to see a = fire? Are we going=20 mad?

It sounds as if = Velocities are=20 flying time bombs just waiting to burst into flames. Come on ... lets get real.

We should put all of our = efforts=20 into preventing fires to begin with, then = we should=20 explore realistic detection equipment that won=92t require peaking = through a=20 freekin window behind the back seat.

I can jus imagine how = that window=20 will go over with my passengers:

=93Tom,=20 isn=92t that nice a rear window!=94

Oh that, I put it there = to spot=20 flames in the engine compartment.

After fire detection, = perhaps a=20 fire suppression system would be in = order.

Are Velocities that = prone to=20 fire? Are we = exaggerating? =

Back on the topic of a = window ...=20 ever see your oven glass when smoke and fire actually erupt in the = oven. It goes black from=20 soot.

I have to believe that = there are=20 other modifications we can do besides a fire=20 window.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C34BF6.4E6BEE00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 09:03:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:03:43 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Wing attach bolts Message-ID: <003501c34c39$f55dfc10$37b070d1@jeffreyhome> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C34BF6.E27EE1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still planning the mega-move of the not flying Velocity. Can anyone tell me the size of the through spar wing attach bolts = (diameter and length). I also need to know the length of the bushing in = the center section spar if possible 173RG THANX for everyone's = helpful suggestions so far! J Clough ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C34BF6.E27EE1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Still planning the mega-move of the not = flying=20 Velocity.

Can anyone tell me the size of the through = spar wing=20 attach bolts (diameter and length). I also need to know the length = of the=20 bushing in the center section spar if possible   =20 173RG   THANX for everyone's helpful suggestions so=20 far!     J = Clough
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C34BF6.E27EE1B0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 12:50:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:50:16 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Wing attach bolts References: <003501c34c39$f55dfc10$37b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <001701c34c59$97791100$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C34C38.0FFB1AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The bolts are AN8A-30 bolts - 1/2" diameter and about three inches long. = I can't get to the bushings but I'd guess they are 1" long. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeffrey Clough=20 To: reflector@awpi.com=20 Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 4:03 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Wing attach bolts Still planning the mega-move of the not flying Velocity. Can anyone tell me the size of the through spar wing attach bolts = (diameter and length). I also need to know the length of the bushing in = the center section spar if possible 173RG THANX for everyone's = helpful suggestions so far! J Clough ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C34C38.0FFB1AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The bolts are AN8A-30 bolts - 1/2" diameter and = about three=20 inches long. I can't get to the bushings but I'd guess they are 1" = long.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeffrey=20 Clough
To: reflector@awpi.com

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 = 4:03=20 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Wing attach=20 bolts

Still planning the mega-move of the not = flying=20 Velocity.

Can anyone tell me the size of the through = spar wing=20 attach bolts (diameter and length). I also need to know the = length of=20 the bushing in the center section spar if possible   =20 173RG   THANX for everyone's helpful suggestions so=20 far!     J=20 Clough
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C34C38.0FFB1AA0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 14:43:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:43:36 EDT Subject: AW: AW: REFLECTOR:explosion Message-ID: <12b.2e1797e1.2c480208@aol.com> --part1_12b.2e1797e1.2c480208_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jack E mail your fax, I will send you fire warning info. Mack --part1_12b.2e1797e1.2c480208_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Jack
E mail your fax, I will send you fire warning info.
Mack --part1_12b.2e1797e1.2c480208_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 14:58:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:58:32 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: Yo Message-ID: <5f.3c9b5e91.2c480588@aol.com> --part1_5f.3c9b5e91.2c480588_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess that's why some engines are gear driven, so max.H.P. and keep the prop tips below super sonic. Mack. --part1_5f.3c9b5e91.2c480588_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess that's why some engines=20= are gear driven, so max.H.P. and keep the prop tips below super sonic.
Mack. --part1_5f.3c9b5e91.2c480588_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 15:10:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:10:56 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: <5a.1f715c67.2c480870@aol.com> --part1_5a.1f715c67.2c480870_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen We installed a duel fire warning system and test for about $30.00. Mack --part1_5a.1f715c67.2c480870_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amen
We installed a duel fire warning system and test for about $30.00.
Mack --part1_5a.1f715c67.2c480870_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 14:11:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:11:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Oil Pressure Switch References: <3F15CA75.24FAB6CC@dixie-net.com> <01d801c34bef$bd4b4700$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F16A07F.99127044@dixie-net.com> Ronnie, Thanks, that helps a lot. I'm impressed that you remembered the RMI Monitor. John Ronnie Brown wrote: > Are you sure it is a pressure switch and not a sensor? I would think that > your RMI Monitor came with an analog pressure sensor made by VDO. > > Try http://www.egauges.com/vdo_sgrp.asp?Subgroup=Pressure_Sender and see if > you can find a match to your sensor. > > Ronnie From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 16:16:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:16:07 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Oil Pressure Switch References: <3F15CA75.24FAB6CC@dixie-net.com> <01d801c34bef$bd4b4700$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <3F16A07F.99127044@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <00a401c34c76$591b0220$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Sometimes I have a temporary recovery from my CMS disease (Can't 'Member S___)! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:11 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Oil Pressure Switch | Ronnie, | Thanks, that helps a lot. I'm impressed that you remembered the RMI Monitor. | | John | | Ronnie Brown wrote: | | > Are you sure it is a pressure switch and not a sensor? I would think that | > your RMI Monitor came with an analog pressure sensor made by VDO. | > | > Try http://www.egauges.com/vdo_sgrp.asp?Subgroup=Pressure_Sender and see if | > you can find a match to your sensor. | > | > Ronnie | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 16:19:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:19:13 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: <5a.1f715c67.2c480870@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c34c76$c7d36e00$aa23a2d9@ah1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C34C87.8B5C3E00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01C34C87.8B5C3E00" ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C34C87.8B5C3E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mack=20 Can you pls geve some details Thank you =20 Alfons =20 Alfons Hubmann CAT City Air Team HB-YHV - Velocity173FG - S/N92 Sternengasschen 1 P.O. Box 6620=20 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von MMurp16900@aol.com Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Juli 2003 16:11 An: reflector@tvbf.org Betreff: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Amen We installed a duel fire warning system and test for about $30.00. Mack=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C34C87.8B5C3E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nachricht
Mack=20

Can=20 you pls geve some details

Thank=20 you

Alfons

Alfons=20 Hubmann

CAT City Air Team
HB-YHV  =20 - Velocity173FG   - =20 S/N92
Sternengässchen=20 1
P.O.=20 Box 6620
CH-3001=20 Berne, Switzerland

Tel:      +41 31 = 901 22=20 66
Fax:     = +41 31=20 901 11 40
Mob:    +41 79 344 83=20 83
-----Ursprüngliche = Nachricht-----
Von:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag = von=20 MMurp16900@aol.com
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Juli 2003=20 16:11
An: reflector@tvbf.org
Betreff: Re: REFLECTOR: = fire=20 warning (was explosion)

Amen
We installed a duel fire warning = system and test=20 for about $30.00.
Mack =

------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C34C87.8B5C3E00-- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C34C87.8B5C3E00 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Alfons Hubmann.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Alfons Hubmann.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Hubmann;Alfons;;xy FN:Alfons Hubmann ORG:Hubmann + Partner TITLE:HKG-WISS-STV NOTE:dfdfdfdsfdf TEL;HOME;VOICE:031 901 22 66 TEL;CELL;VOICE:079 344 83 83 TEL;HOME;FAX:031 901 11 40 ADR;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;Sterneg=3DE4sschen = 1=3D0D=3D0APostfach 6620;Bern;BE;3001;Switzerland LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:Sterneg=3DE4sschen = 1=3D0D=3D0APostfach 6620=3D0D=3D0ABern, BE 3001=3D0D=3D0ASwitzerland ADR;HOME:;;Kappelenring 14a;Hinterkappelen;BE;3032;Schweiz LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:Kappelenring = 14a=3D0D=3D0AHinterkappelen, BE 3032=3D0D=3D0ASchweiz X-WAB-GENDER:2 URL:http://www.hubmann.ch BDAY:20010930 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:alfons@hubmann.ch EMAIL;INTERNET:ahubmann@csi.com REV:20010601T213440Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C34C87.8B5C3E00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 16:20:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:20:49 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <5a.1f715c67.2c480870@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F16BED1.4090906@tnstaafl.net> Mack, got part numbers? vendors? schematic? Scott MMurp16900@aol.com wrote: > Amen > We installed a duel fire warning system and test for about $30.00. > Mack From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 16:26:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Doug Kanczuzewski) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:26:25 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: rooms at Oshkosh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002901c34c77$c8f31960$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34C3D.1C944160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have two rooms available for Oshkosh not to far from the airport, and near the bus, at a private home for $65 a night with breakfast. If anyone interested contact me personally ASAP. Doug doug@customstudio.com ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34C3D.1C944160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Have two rooms available for Oshkosh not to far from the airport, and near the = bus, at a private home for $65 a night with breakfast. If anyone interested = contact me personally ASAP.

=

Doug
=

doug@customstudio.com=

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34C3D.1C944160-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 16:30:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh References: <009101c34afa$2750ec00$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <008e01c34b46$eaf19280$6501a8c0@baycty1.mi.home.com> <016201c34b4d$a32b6140$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <001501c34c78$51805fe0$9865fea9@tungsten.com> Ronnie are you going to be there all week, or just a few days Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Brown" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:52 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh > Thanks Robert, > I'll see you there! > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Trent" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:04 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh > > > | Ronnie > | You can park up with the canards in area 51 (accross form the forums) and > | the welcome wagons will run you down to Homebuilt Headquarters to register > | and then take you to tent camping in the trees behind the hanger cafe. And > | we'll do the reverse when you leave. > | > | I'll be driving one of the welcome wagons Tuesday afternoon. The parking > | guys will radio us if we are not already in the area. We tend to cover the > | Canards and the RV area pretty regularly. We'll be happy to take you guys > | anywhere on the grounds that you need to go. > | > | Bob Trent > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Ronnie Brown" > | To: > | Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:54 PM > | Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh > | > | > | > I am considering flying my new 173 Elite RG to Oshkosh this year and > | camping > | > out. As I recall (its been a couple of years since I went to Oshkosh), > | > there is Canard parking near the forum area? > | > > | > Where would I camp if I parked my plane there? I have flown to Oshkosh > | > several times in a 172 and camped out in the North 40 under the wings, > but > | > I'm not familar with the situation if I park my Velocity in the Canard > | only > | > area. > | > > | > THANKS > | > Ronnie Brown > | > > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > To change your email address, visit > | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 16:49:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:49:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Going to Oshkosh References: <009101c34afa$2750ec00$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <008e01c34b46$eaf19280$6501a8c0@baycty1.mi.home.com> <016201c34b4d$a32b6140$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <001501c34c78$51805fe0$9865fea9@tungsten.com> Message-ID: <00c101c34c7b$0ad31580$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> My target is to fly in Monday or Tuesday and stay as long as I can stand it. Usually 2-3 days or after the first rain storm! After you have been to a dozen of them, it doesn't take long to see the new stuff you haven't seen before. This is subject to change depending on the weather. Ronnie From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 17:45:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:45:42 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34C82.DC71FD10" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C82.DC71FD10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I have been researching this but one could install a small CCD camera on the wingtip (perhaps on the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it would offer a way to "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it will also serve as "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a feed for your in-flight footage. =20 The cameras can be had for less than $100 these days, and a small LCD monitors can be had for about the same. =20 Hiroo =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 1:00 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection =20 I didn't mean to start a war...was just wondering ...wasn't really thinking of a 'window' per se, just a very small piece of glass installed in the firewall which wouldn't weaken the firewall anymore than all the holes we drill through it. Have you ever actually had a fire in your oven or grill....even if the glass is blackened you can still see flames and blackened glass would likely mean fire to me and warrant landing for investigation. It is not a window for looking at your fine engine installation or the view from the back of the plane, just a simple way to double check should, (despite all your efforts at preventing a fire), your alarm system (thermal fuses or whatever) go off. Certified airplane mfrs all do their best to prevent fires(don't they?), but they still DO happen (but they are much more obvious). With a pusher you are just likely to not know about it for a while longer...maybe at which point it is too late. I have never seen a plane with an electrical fire, oil fire or fuel fire, but I suspect they all produce a lot of black smoke..... I have a small convex mirror I was planning on attaching to one of my leading edge vortillons for veiwing (again..just a simple double check) my RG status...wonder if I could see smoke coming from the cowl? J Clough ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino =20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:07 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) =20 Thank God the general public doesn't ready these postings! A window in the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? =20 It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just waiting to burst into flames. Come on ... lets get real. =20 We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires to begin with, then we should explore realistic detection equipment that won't require peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. =20 I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my passengers: =20 "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" =20 Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine compartment. =20 After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system would be in order. =20 Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating? =20 =20 Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven glass when smoke and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from soot. =20 I have to believe that there are other modifications we can do besides a fire window. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C82.DC71FD10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One idea may be to install the = “wingtip cam”. I have been researching this but one could install a = small CCD camera on the wingtip (perhaps on the lower winglet) that can be = panned. Not only it would offer a way to “see” if your cowl is = blowing smoke / fire but it will also serve as “rear-view mirror” = when starting engine, and offer a feed for your in-flight = footage.

The cameras can be had for less = than $100 these days, and a small LCD monitors can be had for about the = same.

Hiroo

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Jeffrey Clough
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 1:00 = AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: = REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection

I didn't mean to start a war...was just wondering ...wasn't = really thinking of a 'window' per se, just a very small piece of glass = installed in the firewall which wouldn't weaken the firewall anymore than all the = holes we drill through it.     Have you ever actually had a = fire in your oven or grill....even if the glass is blackened you can still see = flames and blackened glass would likely mean fire to me and warrant landing for investigation. It is not a window for looking at your fine engine installation or the view from the back of the plane, just a simple way = to double check should, (despite all your efforts at preventing a = fire), your alarm system (thermal fuses or whatever) go off. Certified airplane = mfrs all do their best to prevent fires(don't they?), but they still DO = happen (but they are much more obvious). With a pusher you are just likely to not = know about it for a while longer...maybe at which point it is too = late.

   I have never seen a plane with an electrical = fire, oil fire or fuel fire, but I suspect they all produce a lot of = black smoke..... I have a small convex mirror I was planning on attaching to = one of my leading edge vortillons for veiwing (again..just a simple double = check) my RG status...wonder if I could see smoke coming from the = cowl?   J Clough

----- Original Message -----

From: Tom Martino

To: reflector@www.tvbf.org

Sent: = Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 8:07 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion)

Thank God the general public doesn’t ready these postings! A = window in the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad?

It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just waiting to burst into flames. Come on ... lets get real.

We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires to begin with, then = we should explore realistic detection equipment that won’t require = peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat.

I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my = passengers:

“Tom, isn’t that nice a rear window!”

Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine = compartment.

After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system would be in = order.

Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating? =

Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven glass when smoke and fire = actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from soot.

I have to believe that there are other modifications we can do besides a fire = window.

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C82.DC71FD10-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 18:06:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:06:57 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:RECORDING TIME ON PLANE Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C85.D48683E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an EFIS system, no recording tachometer, simply an RPM readout. =20 Am I required to have a time of some kind to prove hours flown? A = hobbs? A recording tach? ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C85.D48683E4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have = an EFIS=20 system, no recording tachometer, simply an RPM = readout.

Am I = required to=20 have a time of some kind to prove hours flown? A hobbs? A = recording=20 tach?
------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C85.D48683E4-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 14 19:37:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Doug Kanczuzewski) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:37:11 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants In-Reply-To: <7f.39d3fde0.2c3c8848@aol.com> Message-ID: <001601c34a36$f3731200$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C349FC.47143A00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C349FC.47143A00" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C349FC.47143A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit but mounted it slightly differently. Doug ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C349FC.47143A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit = but mounted it slightly differently.

=

Doug
=

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------=_NextPart_000_00F0_01C34C67.89E2F200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your plane will be subject to FAR 91.205 by your operating limitations. = This section does not require any "hobbs" meter. I'd say none is = required. =20 I'm surprised the EFIS doesn't track time. My GRT EIS includes it. How do you plan to keep up with oil changes? Log book would be fine, = just wondering. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: Velocity Email List (E-mail)=20 Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 1:06 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:RECORDING TIME ON PLANE I have an EFIS system, no recording tachometer, simply an RPM readout. Am I required to have a time of some kind to prove hours flown? A = hobbs? A recording tach? ------=_NextPart_000_00F0_01C34C67.89E2F200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Your plane will be subject to FAR 91.205 by your = operating=20 limitations. This section does not require any "hobbs" = meter. I'd=20 say none is required.

I'm surprised the EFIS doesn't track time. My = GRT EIS=20 includes it.

How do you plan to keep up with oil changes? = Log book=20 would be fine, just wondering.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
To: Velocity Email List = (E-mail)

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 = 1:06=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:RECORDING = TIME ON=20 PLANE

I = have an EFIS=20 system, no recording tachometer, simply an RPM = readout.

Am I = required to=20 have a time of some kind to prove hours flown? A hobbs? A=20 recording tach?
------=_NextPart_000_00F0_01C34C67.89E2F200-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 18:37:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:37:09 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:RECORDING TIME ON PLANE Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34C8A.0C81902F" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C8A.0C81902F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an EFIS (Chelton) on mine. It keeps all sorts of logs internally and can be copied down using a memory card that can be read by the PC. Additionally, I have installed a separate hobbs so that I can keep track of service life for time limited components. I don't think there is a requirement but I think it is a handy thing to have for keeping track of engine, prop, filters, etc. =20 You might want to check to see it your EFIS truly does not track operating time. I'd be surprised if it didn't. It may not show it on screen but there probably is a way to get the info. =20 Hiroo =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 10:07 AM To: Velocity Email List (E-mail) Subject: REFLECTOR:RECORDING TIME ON PLANE =20 I have an EFIS system, no recording tachometer, simply an RPM readout. =20 Am I required to have a time of some kind to prove hours flown? A hobbs? A recording tach? ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C8A.0C81902F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have an EFIS (Chelton) on mine. = It keeps all sorts of logs internally and can be copied down using a memory = card that can be read by the PC. Additionally, I have installed a = separate hobbs so that I can = keep track of service life for time limited components. I don’t think = there is a requirement but I think it is a handy thing to have for keeping track = of engine, prop, filters, etc.

You might want to check to see it = your EFIS truly does not track operating time. I’d be surprised = if it didn’t. It may not show it on screen but there probably is a = way to get the info.

Hiroo

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Tom Martino
Sent: Thursday, July 17, = 2003 10:07 AM
To: Velocity Email List = (E-mail)
Subject: = REFLECTOR:RECORDING TIME ON PLANE

I have an EFIS system, no = recording tachometer, simply an RPM readout.

Am I required to have a = time of some kind to prove hours flown? A hobbs? A recording = tach?

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34C8A.0C81902F-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 19:22:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030717182238.78850.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Hiroo, I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to see/record what's going on inside the cowl during flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to find a company that sells a color, waterproof, "helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? Pat --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > have been researching > this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > wingtip (perhaps on > the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > would offer a way to > "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > will also serve as > "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > feed for your > in-flight footage. > > > > The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > days, and a small LCD > monitors can be had for about the same. > > > > Hiroo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 19:36:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:36:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: <20030717182238.78850.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011101c34c92$58027c80$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Neat. I see they are "bomb proof" but are they heat proof. Just how hot does it get in the cowl. I wired my plane for a "cowl" temperature sensor, but I haven't connected it yet. Next project. I have a spare -actually "water temp" input on my GRT EIS that is good for 300 degrees - I think. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection | Hiroo, | | I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the | engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It | looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage | of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, | at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to | see/record what's going on inside the cowl during | flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B | switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to | find a company that sells a color, waterproof, | "helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: | www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look | at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the | screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? | | Pat | | --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: | > One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I | > have been researching | > this but one could install a small CCD camera on the | > wingtip (perhaps on | > the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it | > would offer a way to | > "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it | > will also serve as | > "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a | > feed for your | > in-flight footage. | > | > | > | > The cameras can be had for less than $100 these | > days, and a small LCD | > monitors can be had for about the same. | > | > | > | > Hiroo | | | | __________________________________ | Do you Yahoo!? | SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! | http://sbc.yahoo.com | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 19:45:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:45:27 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection Message-ID: Pat, CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most low-cost CCDs. As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I can set it to "scan" every so often as well. I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down, overhead duct capturing panel. For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular about specific device you are looking for. Hiroo -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection Hiroo, I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to see/record what's going on inside the cowl during flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to find a company that sells a color, waterproof, "helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? Pat --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > have been researching > this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > wingtip (perhaps on > the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > would offer a way to > "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > will also serve as > "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > feed for your > in-flight footage. > > > > The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > days, and a small LCD > monitors can be had for about the same. > > > > Hiroo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 20:54:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030717195455.90982.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look > at the data sheets for the operating temperature > range. The heat inside the engine compartment is > likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of > most low-cost CCDs. The max op. temps for most of the cams I looked at were around 200*F. I'm pretty sure the factory (Duane?) put a temp probe on the firewall once and found it to stay cool during flight. With heat in mind, I was thinking of mounting the cams down low, close to the firewall, looking back. If need be, I'll insulate the cams. > As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 > video mux based on LT1204 device and a PIC. Perfect - any chance you want to design one for me too?? That was joke... Anyway, I was kinda hoping to find a simple 2:1 "plug and play" mixer/mux. > For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing > (www.earthlcd.com) usually has some good selection > of them. Great - I'll check there. Thanks, Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 21:33:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030717203341.5064.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft cowling. Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have what in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping gas into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop will probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane on the inside of the engine bulkhead. It is an individual choice and you have either not thought about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that there is a potential problem and are looking for solutions and that is exactly what the reflector is for. Jim --- Tom Martino wrote: > Thank God the general public doesn't ready these > postings! A window in > the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? > > It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just > waiting to burst > into flames. Come on ... lets get real. > > We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires to > begin with, > then we should explore realistic detection equipment that > won't require > peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. > > I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my > passengers: > > "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" > > Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine > compartment. > > After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system > would be in > order. > > Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating? > > > Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven > glass when smoke > and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from > soot. > > I have to believe that there are other modifications we > can do besides a > fire window. > > > ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 21:59:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:59:31 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: <20030717195455.90982.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c34ca6$51f022c0$aa23a2d9@ah1> + Beni Werfeli + had such a camera installed, but it was gone (melted) because of heat some time ago! Therefore the lower winglet seems a good idea to me! Regards Alfons Alfons Hubmann Velocity Europe CAT City Air Team HB-YHV Sternengasschen 1 P.O. Box 6620 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 <-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- wrote: < <> CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look <> at the data sheets for the operating temperature <> range. The heat inside the engine compartment is <> likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of <> most low-cost CCDs. < As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 <> video mux based on LT1204 device and a PIC. < For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing <> (www.earthlcd.com) usually has some good selection <> of them. < Message-ID: <3F1710C8.3254C76A@comcast.net> Pat, > I haven't had a chance to look > at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? http://www.supercircuits.com/STORE/home.asp This company sells primarily video security equipment. But they have cameras down to 1" cube, so you're sure to be able to find the perfect camera for your installation. As far as splitters are concerned, they usually produce 4 images (quad split), 9 images, or 16 images. While it's possible to do a 2-way split, you'd lose half of each camera's image. With a quad split, you'll see all of each camera's image, but each image will be 1/4 size. Remember, whatever splitter you use is another piece of electronic equipment you'll have to carry. So there's still no free lunch. My best suggestion for two cameras is a simple A/B switch. This is also the cheapest option. The switched output can be fed to a VCR as well as to the monitor, so provides a convenient way to select what camera you are recording. Another option is two separate monitors. Same equipment count as the A/B option, but takes more panel space. Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 22:13:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) Message-ID: <20030717211346.73595.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> This note should have been in response to Tom Martino ! Sorry --- Jim Agnew wrote: > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Agnew > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft > cowling. > > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have > what > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping > gas > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop > will > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. > > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane > on > the inside of the engine bulkhead. > > It is an individual choice and you have either not > thought > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that > there is a potential problem and are looking for > solutions > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. > > Jim > > > > --- Tom Martino wrote: > > Thank God the general public doesn't ready these > > postings! A window in > > the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? > > > > It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just > > waiting to burst > > into flames. Come on ... lets get real. > > > > We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires > to > > begin with, > > then we should explore realistic detection equipment > that > > won't require > > peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. > > > > I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my > > passengers: > > > > "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" > > > > Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine > > compartment. > > > > After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system > > would be in > > order. > > > > Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we > exaggerating? > > > > > > Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven > > glass when smoke > > and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black > from > > soot. > > > > I have to believe that there are other modifications we > > can do besides a > > fire window. > > > > > > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 22:23:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:23:04 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030717203341.5064.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F1713B8.2000800@tnstaafl.net> I thought all Velocity's had a fuel cutoff at the sump tank, controllable from the pilot seat? Is mine unusual? Scott Jim Agnew wrote: > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft > cowling. > > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have what > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping gas > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop will > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. > > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane on > the inside of the engine bulkhead. > > It is an individual choice and you have either not thought > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that > there is a potential problem and are looking for solutions > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. > > Jim > > > > --- Tom Martino wrote: > >>Thank God the general public doesn't ready these >>postings! A window in >>the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? >> >>It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just >>waiting to burst >>into flames. Come on ... lets get real. >> >>We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires to >>begin with, >>then we should explore realistic detection equipment that >>won't require >>peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. >> >>I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my >>passengers: >> >>"Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" >> >>Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine >>compartment. >> >>After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system >>would be in >>order. >> >>Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating? >> >> >>Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven >>glass when smoke >>and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from >>soot. >> >>I have to believe that there are other modifications we >>can do besides a >>fire window. >> >> >> > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 22:37:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:37:25 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: <20030717182238.78850.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c34cab$9ededc70$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> Pat, try B&H Camera, NY, NY. Professional and amateur video gear. Excellent prices and service. Tons of stuff. Call and explain your need. http://www.bhphotovideo.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection Hiroo, I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to see/record what's going on inside the cowl during flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to find a company that sells a color, waterproof, "helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? Pat --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > have been researching > this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > wingtip (perhaps on > the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > would offer a way to > "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > will also serve as > "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > feed for your > in-flight footage. > > > > The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > days, and a small LCD > monitors can be had for about the same. > > > > Hiroo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 22:44:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:44:20 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: FIRE, SAFETY, OBSERVATIONS, ETC. (for Jim Agnew and others) Message-ID: I understand the purpose of the Reflector is to exchange ideas and give opinions. I gave mine. It's all good. I mean no offense to those who want to put windows in their firewalls. I feel adequate fire detection and suppression would be a better alternative. I also thank you for the suggestion on the fuel cut off. You are right. When I a previously asked about the Velocity safety record (in regard to other experimental aircraft) ... I got a ton of responses -- PRIVATELY. They expressed concerns over the safety and reliability of the Velocity. It is interesting that none was willing to post publicly. >From what I gathered, Velocity is a solid design and really not that complicated. However, unlike Lancairs -- most Velocities are built by the owners and NOT by professionals. That could be the reason they have a dismal record compared to the Lancair. (By the way, I'm all for owners doing the work!) I also think Lancair builders are willing to spend more -- possibly because they have already resigned themselves to buying a very expensive kit to begin with. Whereas the Velocity price is reasonable enough to get people into the project ... yet expensive enough to "tax" their resources when it comes to completing them with the best of materials. One example is the recent discussion on Reflector regarding "Eyeball Vents". The photos show cruddy old vents that needed a lot of work to make them perfect. The savings? Maybe $30. You can buy beautiful brushed aluminum vents for $85. Does it seem reasonable to invest all this time and money in a project and skimp on such little things? While eyeball vents are not a safety item, it does say something about the culture of "Velocity". I have seen dozens of planes and it amazes me how many of them cut corners or go the "cheaper" route just to save a few bucks. I am not advocating spending money for the hell of it ... but this is a "once in a lifetime project" for many ... and you may as well do it "top shelf" from, the beginning. Incidentally ... ALL of the Velocity builders I've met are nicer than Lancair builders! And the Velocity Factory people are great. By the way ... I have four new (machine gray) eyeball vents I'd like to give away to anyone who cares to email me with their mailing address. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Agnew [mailto:jim_agnew_2@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:14 PM To: Velocity Reflector Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) This note should have been in response to Tom Martino ! Sorry --- Jim Agnew wrote: > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Agnew > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft > cowling. > > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have > what > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping > gas > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop > will > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. > > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane > on > the inside of the engine bulkhead. > > It is an individual choice and you have either not > thought > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that > there is a potential problem and are looking for > solutions > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. > > Jim > > > > --- Tom Martino wrote: > > Thank God the general public doesn't ready these > > postings! A window in > > the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? > > > > It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just > > waiting to burst > > into flames. Come on ... lets get real. > > > > We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires > to > > begin with, > > then we should explore realistic detection equipment > that > > won't require > > peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. > > > > I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my > > passengers: > > > > "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" > > > > Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine > > compartment. > > > > After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system > > would be in > > order. > > > > Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we > exaggerating? > > > > > > Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven > > glass when smoke > > and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black > from > > soot. > > > > I have to believe that there are other modifications we > > can do besides a > > fire window. > > > > > > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:08:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: <3F1713B8.2000800@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <20030717220817.77777.qmail@web41302.mail.yahoo.com> Yes it is unusual, and there have been lengthly discussions about them. Jim --- Scott Derrick wrote: > I thought all Velocity's had a fuel cutoff at the sump > tank, > controllable from the pilot seat? Is mine unusual? > > Scott > > Jim Agnew wrote: > > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago > I > > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft > > cowling. > > > > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have > what > > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel > > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, > keep > > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping > gas > > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get > on > > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop > will > > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. > > > > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the > plane on > > the inside of the engine bulkhead. > > > > It is an individual choice and you have either not > thought > > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that > > there is a potential problem and are looking for > solutions > > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > --- Tom Martino wrote: > > > >>Thank God the general public doesn't ready these > >>postings! A window in > >>the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? > >> > >>It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just > >>waiting to burst > >>into flames. Come on ... lets get real. > >> > >>We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires > to > >>begin with, > >>then we should explore realistic detection equipment > that > >>won't require > >>peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. > >> > >>I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my > >>passengers: > >> > >>"Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" > >> > >>Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine > >>compartment. > >> > >>After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system > >>would be in > >>order. > >> > >>Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we > exaggerating? > >> > >> > >>Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven > >>glass when smoke > >>and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black > from > >>soot. > >> > >>I have to believe that there are other modifications we > >>can do besides a > >>fire window. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ===== > > James F. Agnew > > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > > Tampa, FL > > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:15:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:15:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants In-Reply-To: <001601c34a36$f3731200$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_MRAd0Ad7gzUWRinhvAaDYQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Doug, Do you have an SUV? The reason that I ask is that if you put the throttle on the middle, then you can not use both the stick and throttle at the same time very easily..... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Doug Kanczuzewski Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:37 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit but mounted it slightly differently. Doug --Boundary_(ID_MRAd0Ad7gzUWRinhvAaDYQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Doug,

Do you have an SUV? The reason that I ask is that if you put the throttle on the middle, then you can not use both the stick and throttle at the same time very easily.....

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Doug Kanczuzewski
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:37 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants

Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit but mounted it slightly differently.

Doug

--Boundary_(ID_MRAd0Ad7gzUWRinhvAaDYQ)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:31:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:31:01 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants Message-ID: <625BE70E.74DDD217.0BE7D1EB@aol.com> In a message dated 7/14/2003 1:37:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, doug@customstudio.com writes: > Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit but mounted it > slightly differently. GROG LIKE! Do you have the yoke? It does not look like there is room for it so how did you do the left side stick (assuming no yoke)? A left stick and center throttle would have made the velo a whole lot easier to fly. DM Rob From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:32:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:32:15 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: cheapskates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tom , I agree with the bulk your last post, but I bought 6 of those "cruddy" eyeballs that you mentioned for a total of $100 including frieght, if I purchased them from A/S, by the time I would have received them, it would have cost me about $525 which is simply ridiculous - took me about 2 hours of my time to disassemble them, clean, and re-paint to textured black- would have probably painted to spruce ones too, so I saved $425, which incidentally was about what I spent on my altimeter and vertical card compass, so I am pleased with the bargain that I got. you know it all adds up, but I certainly wouldn't skimp on important things like the instruments, and safety equipment, but other things like eyeball vents- sure... And it certainly seems true that the Lancair guys are of a different social order than us Velocity folks. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: Re: REFLECTOR: FIRE, SAFETY, OBSERVATIONS, ETC. (for Jim Agnew and others) I understand the purpose of the Reflector is to exchange ideas and give opinions. I gave mine. It's all good. I mean no offense to those who want to put windows in their firewalls. I feel adequate fire detection and suppression would be a better alternative. I also thank you for the suggestion on the fuel cut off. You are right. When I a previously asked about the Velocity safety record (in regard to other experimental aircraft) ... I got a ton of responses -- PRIVATELY. They expressed concerns over the safety and reliability of the Velocity. It is interesting that none was willing to post publicly. >From what I gathered, Velocity is a solid design and really not that complicated. However, unlike Lancairs -- most Velocities are built by the owners and NOT by professionals. That could be the reason they have a dismal record compared to the Lancair. (By the way, I'm all for owners doing the work!) I also think Lancair builders are willing to spend more -- possibly because they have already resigned themselves to buying a very expensive kit to begin with. Whereas the Velocity price is reasonable enough to get people into the project ... yet expensive enough to "tax" their resources when it comes to completing them with the best of materials. One example is the recent discussion on Reflector regarding "Eyeball Vents". The photos show cruddy old vents that needed a lot of work to make them perfect. The savings? Maybe $30. You can buy beautiful brushed aluminum vents for $85. Does it seem reasonable to invest all this time and money in a project and skimp on such little things? While eyeball vents are not a safety item, it does say something about the culture of "Velocity". I have seen dozens of planes and it amazes me how many of them cut corners or go the "cheaper" route just to save a few bucks. I am not advocating spending money for the hell of it ... but this is a "once in a lifetime project" for many ... and you may as well do it "top shelf" from, the beginning. Incidentally ... ALL of the Velocity builders I've met are nicer than Lancair builders! And the Velocity Factory people are great. By the way ... I have four new (machine gray) eyeball vents I'd like to give away to anyone who cares to email me with their mailing address. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Agnew [mailto:jim_agnew_2@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:14 PM To: Velocity Reflector Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) This note should have been in response to Tom Martino ! Sorry --- Jim Agnew wrote: > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Agnew > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft > cowling. > > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have > what > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping > gas > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop > will > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. > > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane > on > the inside of the engine bulkhead. > > It is an individual choice and you have either not > thought > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that > there is a potential problem and are looking for > solutions > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. > > Jim > > > > --- Tom Martino wrote: > > Thank God the general public doesn't ready these > > postings! A window in > > the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? > > > > It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just > > waiting to burst > > into flames. Come on ... lets get real. > > > > We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires > to > > begin with, > > then we should explore realistic detection equipment > that > > won't require > > peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. > > > > I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my > > passengers: > > > > "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" > > > > Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine > > compartment. > > > > After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system > > would be in > > order. > > > > Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we > exaggerating? > > > > > > Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven > > glass when smoke > > and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black > from > > soot. > > > > I have to believe that there are other modifications we > > can do besides a > > fire window. > > > > > > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:38:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Doug Kanczuzewski) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:38:10 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants In-Reply-To: <625BE70E.74DDD217.0BE7D1EB@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c34cb4$19e57c00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> Side stick photos are in the next installment. Doug -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of RJohn15183@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:31 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants In a message dated 7/14/2003 1:37:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, doug@customstudio.com writes: > Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit but mounted it > slightly differently. GROG LIKE! Do you have the yoke? It does not look like there is room for it so how did you do the left side stick (assuming no yoke)? A left stick and center throttle would have made the velo a whole lot easier to fly. DM Rob _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:43:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:43:10 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030717220817.77777.qmail@web41302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F17267E.90306@tnstaafl.net> I can't imagine flying without a fuel shut off. But as a good freind of mine says tooeechissownnn. Scott Jim Agnew wrote: > Yes it is unusual, and there have been lengthly discussions > about them. > > Jim > > --- Scott Derrick wrote: > >>I thought all Velocity's had a fuel cutoff at the sump >>tank, >>controllable from the pilot seat? Is mine unusual? >> >>Scott >> >>Jim Agnew wrote: >> >>>Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago >> >>I >> >>>installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft >>>cowling. >>> >>>Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have >> >>what >> >>>in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel >>>cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, >> >>keep >> >>>the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping >> >>gas >> >>>into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get >> >>on >> >>>the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop >> >>will >> >>>probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. >>> >>>Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the >> >>plane on >> >>>the inside of the engine bulkhead. >>> >>>It is an individual choice and you have either not >> >>thought >> >>>about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that >>>there is a potential problem and are looking for >> >>solutions >> >>>and that is exactly what the reflector is for. >>> >>>Jim >>> >>> >>> >>>--- Tom Martino wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Thank God the general public doesn't ready these >>>>postings! A window in >>>>the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? >>>> >>>>It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just >>>>waiting to burst >>>>into flames. Come on ... lets get real. >>>> >>>>We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires >>> >>to >> >>>>begin with, >>>>then we should explore realistic detection equipment >>> >>that >> >>>>won't require >>>>peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. >>>> >>>>I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my >>>>passengers: >>>> >>>>"Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" >>>> >>>>Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine >>>>compartment. >>>> >>>>After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system >>>>would be in >>>>order. >>>> >>>>Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we >>> >>exaggerating? >> >>>> >>>>Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven >>>>glass when smoke >>>>and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black >>> >>from >> >>>>soot. >>>> >>>>I have to believe that there are other modifications we >>>>can do besides a >>>>fire window. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>===== >>>James F. Agnew >>>Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com >>>Tampa, FL >>>Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:51:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: <20030717220817.77777.qmail@web41302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030717225137.75331.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Agnew wrote: > Yes it is unusual, and there have been lengthly > discussions > about them. Jim, Sounds like there's more history to the fuel shut-off valve than I know. FWIW, I believe the valve and a push/pull cable are now part of the engine install pkg from the factory. They weren't in '98 when I got my kit - but I just recently bought both from Natalie (the XL needs a 12' cable, 10' doesn't cut it - don't ask how I know...). The brackets are up to builder to make. Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 17 23:53:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:53:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: FIRE, SAFETY, OBSERVATIONS, ETC. (for Jim Agnew and others) References: Message-ID: <3F1728DA.6040306@tnstaafl.net> I would have liked to have heard the Velocities-are-Dangerous comments. I have always assumed I knew about all the accidents because I had my ear to the ground so to speak. When I owned a V-Tail Bonanza I knew about all the rumors, crashes( current and past), etc.. Seemed like there was a Bonanza incident a couple times a week. Do the facts really add up to V's being more prone to accidents? Anybody done a simple pilot-error/mechanical/act-of-god analysis? I know that some certified planes have gotten a bad rap because of a few very public accidents and possibly a small increase over the average accident rate. I mean look at the Cirrus, if you look at its rate its a flying coffin! Bad plane, bad pilots, bad luck?? Scott Tom Martino wrote: > I understand the purpose of the Reflector is to exchange ideas and give opinions. I gave mine. It's all good. I mean no offense to those who want to put windows in their firewalls. I feel adequate fire detection and suppression would be a better alternative. I also thank you for the suggestion on the fuel cut off. You are right. > > When I a previously asked about the Velocity safety record (in regard to other experimental aircraft) ... I got a ton of responses -- PRIVATELY. > > They expressed concerns over the safety and reliability of the Velocity. It is interesting that none was willing to post publicly. > >>From what I gathered, Velocity is a solid design and really not that complicated. However, unlike Lancairs -- most Velocities are built by the owners and NOT by professionals. That could be the reason they have a dismal record compared to the Lancair. (By the way, I'm all for owners doing the work!) > > I also think Lancair builders are willing to spend more -- possibly because they have already resigned themselves to buying a very expensive kit to begin with. Whereas the Velocity price is reasonable enough to get people into the project ... yet expensive enough to "tax" their resources when it comes to completing them with the best of materials. > > One example is the recent discussion on Reflector regarding "Eyeball Vents". The photos show cruddy old vents that needed a lot of work to make them perfect. The savings? Maybe $30. You can buy beautiful brushed aluminum vents for $85. Does it seem reasonable to invest all this time and money in a project and skimp on such little things? While eyeball vents are not a safety item, it does say something about the culture of "Velocity". > > I have seen dozens of planes and it amazes me how many of them cut corners or go the "cheaper" route just to save a few bucks. > > I am not advocating spending money for the hell of it ... but this is a "once in a lifetime project" for many ... and you may as well do it "top shelf" from, the beginning. > > Incidentally ... ALL of the Velocity builders I've met are nicer than Lancair builders! And the Velocity Factory people are great. > > By the way ... I have four new (machine gray) eyeball vents I'd like to give away to anyone who cares to email me with their mailing address. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Agnew [mailto:jim_agnew_2@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:14 PM > To: Velocity Reflector > Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) > > > This note should have been in response to Tom Martino ! > > Sorry > > --- Jim Agnew wrote: > >>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Jim Agnew >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >> >>Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I >>installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft >>cowling. >> >>Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have >>what >>in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel >>cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep >>the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping >>gas >>into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on >>the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop >>will >>probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. >> >>Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane >>on >>the inside of the engine bulkhead. >> >>It is an individual choice and you have either not >>thought >>about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that >>there is a potential problem and are looking for >>solutions >>and that is exactly what the reflector is for. >> >>Jim >> >> >> >>--- Tom Martino wrote: >> >>>Thank God the general public doesn't ready these >>>postings! A window in >>>the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? >>> >>>It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just >>>waiting to burst >>>into flames. Come on ... lets get real. >>> >>>We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires >> >>to >> >>>begin with, >>>then we should explore realistic detection equipment >> >>that >> >>>won't require >>>peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. >>> >>>I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my >>>passengers: >>> >>>"Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" >>> >>>Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine >>>compartment. >>> >>>After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system >>>would be in >>>order. >>> >>>Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we >> >>exaggerating? >> >>> >>>Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven >>>glass when smoke >>>and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black >> >>from >> >>>soot. >>> >>>I have to believe that there are other modifications we >>>can do besides a >>>fire window. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>===== >>James F. Agnew >>Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com >>Tampa, FL >>Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed >> > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 00:00:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:00:26 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <20030717203341.5064.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F172A8A.B80A628E@dixie-net.com> I have a fuel cutoff on the engine side of the bulkhead. John Jim Agnew wrote: > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft > cowling. > > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have what > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping gas > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop will > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. > > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane on > the inside of the engine bulkhead. > > It is an individual choice and you have either not thought > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that > there is a potential problem and are looking for solutions > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. > > Jim > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 00:09:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:09:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: FIRE, SAFETY, OBSERVATIONS, ETC. (for Jim Agnew andothers) References: <3F1728DA.6040306@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F172CAF.D35C8301@dixie-net.com> I'd like to hear them also. I'd like to know if the accidents are mostly during low hours or are they happening after a few hundred hours. John Scott Derrick wrote: > I would have liked to have heard the Velocities-are-Dangerous comments. > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 00:38:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:38:28 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: FIRE, SAFETY, OBSERVATIONS, ETC. (for Jim Agnew andothers) References: <3F1728DA.6040306@tnstaafl.net> <3F172CAF.D35C8301@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F173374.3080701@tnstaafl.net> All of the "complex" homebuilts have a dismal record in the first 50 hours. Its amazing any company will insure a homebuilt plane in that phase of its life. Its really bad if the builder does the first flights. Scott John Dibble wrote: > I'd like to hear them also. I'd like to know if the accidents are mostly during low hours or are they happening after a few hundred hours. > > John > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > >>I would have liked to have heard the Velocities-are-Dangerous comments. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 01:25:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:25:09 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: <1ce.e0acfbd.2c489865@aol.com> --part1_1ce.e0acfbd.2c489865_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some months ago a few of us building at the factory service center opted to have the fuel cutoff. Nate was first as I recall. We placed a recess in the keel below the stick on the pilot side for the knob and installed the cut off just forward of the firewall beside the sump on the XL's we were building. I use it to cut off the fuel when I am cleaning the fuel filter and such times, but could pull it off in flight if I needed to. Bob Wood N658SE Bob II --part1_1ce.e0acfbd.2c489865_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some months ago a few of us building at the factory se= rvice center opted to have the fuel cutoff. Nate was first as I recall. We p= laced a recess in the keel below the stick on the pilot side for the knob an= d installed the cut off just forward of the firewall beside the sump on the=20= XL's we were building.

I use it to cut off the fuel when I am cleaning the fuel filter and such tim= es, but could pull it off in flight if I needed to.

Bob Wood
N658SE
Bob II --part1_1ce.e0acfbd.2c489865_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 02:06:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:06:32 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) Message-ID: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> So far have: Balanced and checked nose wheel tire for out of round. Adjusted main gear wheels for proper toe in and camber. Tightened main gear and nose gear pivot bolts to minimize excess play Replaced nose gear fork as there was considerable wear in previous fork bushing. Tightened shimmy damper force on nose wheel well above numbers given by Velocity. The only item I can find out of spec is that the bottom end of the nose gear strut tilts forward about 7 degrees (from vertical) and factory says it should be about 2 degrees. Note: Adding weight to nose or braking causes the 7 degrees to INCREASE. Still get some nose wheel shimmy (not real serious) around 20 to 30 mph. (1) when applying fairly heavy braking and am alone in A/C. (2) when I have a front seat passenger without any braking ( applying brakes aggravates the shimmy). Anyone out there having similar problems or have any suggestions? Don White N19DW XL/RG From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 02:05:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:05:35 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sidesticks and Centred Throttle Quadrants References: <000501c34cb4$19e57c00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <009001c34cc8$b29e6100$5126fea9@greg> Maybe Scott Baker or others who have flown various versions might be able to illuminate this area for us?.....how do the side stick options pan out compared to the existing centre stick in terms of flyability and effort on long haul flights? I found being able to rest my arm on the centre console and use my wrist to do most of the flying when in cruise in the existing (KISS) arrangement is very comfortable whereas I'd presume one would need to put an arm rest for the side sticks to achieve the same level of comfort ??. I think we would all acknowledge that the areas of the fuselage where Velocity's are at a premium for space when seated or when entering or egressing the aircraft is where the sidesticks and arm rest would be located. Sob, wish I could have made OSH! Greg in Sydney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kanczuzewski" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:38 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants > Side stick photos are in the next installment. > Doug > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of RJohn15183@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:31 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants > > In a message dated 7/14/2003 1:37:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > doug@customstudio.com writes: > > > Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit but mounted it > > slightly differently. > > GROG LIKE! > > Do you have the yoke? It does not look like there is room for it so how > did you do the left side stick (assuming no yoke)? A left stick and > center throttle would have made the velo a whole lot easier to fly. > > DM Rob > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 02:23:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:23:34 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sidesticks and Centred Throttle Quadrants References: <000501c34cb4$19e57c00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> <009001c34cc8$b29e6100$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <3F174C16.3090206@tnstaafl.net> Greg Poole wrote: > Sob, wish I could have made OSH! Greg, OSH is all dust, bugs, crowds, hype.... Who needs it!!! at least thats what I keep telling myself! ;-) Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 02:33:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (William C. Cox) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:33:41 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sidesticks and Centred Throttle Quadrants In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:05:35 +1000." <009001c34cc8$b29e6100$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <200307180133.h6I1XfB09972@thuvia.qswtools.com> Hi Folks, I have a Classic, so side-sticks are easier for me. I'd *love* to install a set. Is there a vendor who could provide one, or drawings that I could buy, to make myself? Malcolm, of Hangar 18, is said to have designed such a thing, but he seems to be busy on other things. Thanks for any hints! From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 03:14:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:14:09 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) References: <20030717211346.73595.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005601c34cd2$461aa3e0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Thanks Jim! I don't think I have ever put any one down - I may not agree with an idea or suggestion at times - but I have NEVER attacked the person. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Agnew" To: "Velocity Reflector" Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) | This note should have been in response to Tom Martino ! | | Sorry | | --- Jim Agnew wrote: | > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) | > From: Jim Agnew | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > | > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I | > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft | > cowling. | > | > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have | > what | > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel | > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep | > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping | > gas | > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on | > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop | > will | > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. | > | > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane | > on | > the inside of the engine bulkhead. | > | > It is an individual choice and you have either not | > thought | > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that | > there is a potential problem and are looking for | > solutions | > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. | > | > Jim | > | > | > | > --- Tom Martino wrote: | > > Thank God the general public doesn't ready these | > > postings! A window in | > > the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? | > > | > > It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just | > > waiting to burst | > > into flames. Come on ... lets get real. | > > | > > We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires | > to | > > begin with, | > > then we should explore realistic detection equipment | > that | > > won't require | > > peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. | > > | > > I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my | > > passengers: | > > | > > "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" | > > | > > Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine | > > compartment. | > > | > > After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system | > > would be in | > > order. | > > | > > Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we | > exaggerating? | > > | > > | > > Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven | > > glass when smoke | > > and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black | > from | > > soot. | > > | > > I have to believe that there are other modifications we | > > can do besides a | > > fire window. | > > | > > | > > | > | > | > ===== | > James F. Agnew | > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com | > Tampa, FL | > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed | > | | | ===== | James F. Agnew | Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com | Tampa, FL | Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 03:59:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:59:34 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:If you know anyone who needs and IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... Message-ID: 200 hp out of a 78 Mooney... pictures here... http://www.hammsaircraft.com/velocity/chap17/chap17engine.html http://www.hammsaircraft.com/velocity/chap17/chap17enginekit.html _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 04:01:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:01:08 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> I relocated some holes at the top of my old channel style nose gear mount (fixed gear) so I now have 2 degrees negative caster when empty. I did some high speed taxi test with two of us > #200 in the front. My modification seems to eliminate the shimmy (but I still have my break-out lock just in case). I tried bouncing the nose gear several times with and without the nose gear locked. Felt no sign of shimmy.I think I may just have a fix. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:06 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) > So far have: > Balanced and checked nose wheel tire for out of round. > Adjusted main gear wheels for proper toe in and camber. > Tightened main gear and nose gear pivot bolts to minimize excess play > Replaced nose gear fork as there was considerable wear in previous fork > bushing. > Tightened shimmy damper force on nose wheel well above numbers given by > Velocity. > The only item I can find out of spec is that the bottom end of the nose gear > strut tilts forward about 7 degrees (from vertical) and factory says it should > be about 2 degrees. Note: Adding weight to nose or braking causes the 7 > degrees to INCREASE. > > Still get some nose wheel shimmy (not real serious) around 20 to 30 mph. (1) > when applying fairly heavy braking and am alone in A/C. (2) when I have a > front seat passenger without any braking ( applying brakes aggravates the shimmy). > > Anyone out there having similar problems or have any suggestions? > > Don White N19DW XL/RG > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 04:46:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:46:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) Message-ID: Neither have I! -----Original Message----- From: Ronnie Brown [mailto:romott@adelphia.net] Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:14 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) Thanks Jim! I don't think I have ever put any one down - I may not agree with an idea or suggestion at times - but I have NEVER attacked the person. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Agnew" To: "Velocity Reflector" Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) (CORRECTION) | This note should have been in response to Tom Martino ! | | Sorry | | --- Jim Agnew wrote: | > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) | > From: Jim Agnew | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > | > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I | > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft | > cowling. | > | > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have | > what | > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel | > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep | > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping | > gas | > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on | > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop | > will | > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. | > | > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane | > on | > the inside of the engine bulkhead. | > | > It is an individual choice and you have either not | > thought | > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that | > there is a potential problem and are looking for | > solutions | > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. | > | > Jim | > | > | > | > --- Tom Martino wrote: | > > Thank God the general public doesn't ready these | > > postings! A window in | > > the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? | > > | > > It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just | > > waiting to burst | > > into flames. Come on ... lets get real. | > > | > > We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires | > to | > > begin with, | > > then we should explore realistic detection equipment | > that | > > won't require | > > peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. | > > | > > I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my | > > passengers: | > > | > > "Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" | > > | > > Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine | > > compartment. | > > | > > After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system | > > would be in | > > order. | > > | > > Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we | > exaggerating? | > > | > > | > > Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven | > > glass when smoke | > > and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black | > from | > > soot. | > > | > > I have to believe that there are other modifications we | > > can do besides a | > > fire window. | > > | > > | > > | > | > | > ===== | > James F. Agnew | > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com | > Tampa, FL | > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed | > | | | ===== | James F. Agnew | Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com | Tampa, FL | Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 05:37:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:37:38 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> Message-ID: <004001c34ce6$51a59120$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Don: Sorry to see that you are still having a problem.. You have worked on this quite hard. I would fly the plane to Velocity and have them look at it. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:06 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) > So far have: > Balanced and checked nose wheel tire for out of round. > Adjusted main gear wheels for proper toe in and camber. > Tightened main gear and nose gear pivot bolts to minimize excess play > Replaced nose gear fork as there was considerable wear in previous fork > bushing. > Tightened shimmy damper force on nose wheel well above numbers given by > Velocity. > The only item I can find out of spec is that the bottom end of the nose gear > strut tilts forward about 7 degrees (from vertical) and factory says it should > be about 2 degrees. Note: Adding weight to nose or braking causes the 7 > degrees to INCREASE. > > Still get some nose wheel shimmy (not real serious) around 20 to 30 mph. (1) > when applying fairly heavy braking and am alone in A/C. (2) when I have a > front seat passenger without any braking ( applying brakes aggravates the shimmy). > > Anyone out there having similar problems or have any suggestions? > > Don White N19DW XL/RG > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 05:35:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:35:14 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:If you know anyone who needs and IO-360 and a Velocity Engine i... Message-ID: <1e3.d7f0310.2c48d302@aol.com> --part1_1e3.d7f0310.2c48d302_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald: What is the Model # on that engine, ?A1A, ?C1E6, whatever?? I think that's what we're looking for. Bill Torres --part1_1e3.d7f0310.2c48d302_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donald:

What is the Model # on that engine, ?A1A, ?C1E6, whatever?? I think th= at's what we're looking for.

Bill Torres --part1_1e3.d7f0310.2c48d302_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 05:48:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:48:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: Message-ID: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH A WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND LAND. FRED ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hiroo Umeno" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > Pat, > > CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets > for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine > compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most > low-cost CCDs. > > As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on > LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing > with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each > cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I > can set it to "scan" every so often as well. > > I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot > side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down, > overhead duct capturing panel. > > For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually > has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus > electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular > about specific device you are looking for. > > Hiroo > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Pat Shea > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > Hiroo, > > I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the > engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It > looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage > of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, > at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to > see/record what's going on inside the cowl during > flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B > switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to > find a company that sells a color, waterproof, > "helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: > www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look > at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? > > Pat > > --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > > One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > > have been researching > > this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > > wingtip (perhaps on > > the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > > would offer a way to > > "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > > will also serve as > > "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > > feed for your > > in-flight footage. > > > > > > > > The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > > days, and a small LCD > > monitors can be had for about the same. > > > > > > > > Hiroo > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 05:48:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:48:26 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717214733.02ee4290@mail.adelphia.net> Try http://www.protectowire.com/products/protectowirelhd.htm I don't know what temperature rating you'd want, it might be different in different parts of the engine compartment. At 12:48 AM 7/18/03 -0400, Fred Marconi wrote: >SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH A >WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT >POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND >LAND. > >FRED > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Hiroo Umeno" >To: >Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM >Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > > > Pat, > > > > CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets > > for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine > > compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most > > low-cost CCDs. > > > > As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on > > LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing > > with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each > > cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I > > can set it to "scan" every so often as well. > > > > I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot > > side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down, > > overhead duct capturing panel. > > > > For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually > > has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus > > electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular > > about specific device you are looking for. > > > > Hiroo > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > > Behalf Of Pat Shea > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > > > Hiroo, > > > > I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the > > engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It > > looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage > > of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, > > at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to > > see/record what's going on inside the cowl during > > flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B > > switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to > > find a company that sells a color, waterproof, > > "helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: > > www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look > > at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > > screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? > > > > Pat > > > > --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > > > One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > > > have been researching > > > this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > > > wingtip (perhaps on > > > the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > > > would offer a way to > > > "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > > > will also serve as > > > "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > > > feed for your > > > in-flight footage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > > > days, and a small LCD > > > monitors can be had for about the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hiroo > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 06:12:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 01:12:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717214733.02ee4290@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <00f801c34ceb$2ed76740$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Thanks Richard: I was just giving an answer to this camera issue. We are going crazy with this engine fire stuff. How many Velocities are flying without a problem? The instructions call for a shut off valve and a year ago we were talking of temp sensors from Radio Shack of which I am installing two in two different locations. The meter was just an idea to replace the camera and the glass, which I think is a little too much. Have you ever heard of fire in other planes? Give me a brake, if Velocity is a time bomb then forward engine planes are smoke chambers traps. Fred. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 12:48 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > Try http://www.protectowire.com/products/protectowirelhd.htm > > I don't know what temperature rating you'd want, it might be different in > different parts of the engine compartment. > > > At 12:48 AM 7/18/03 -0400, Fred Marconi wrote: > >SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH A > >WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT > >POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND > >LAND. > > > >FRED > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Hiroo Umeno" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM > >Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets > > > for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine > > > compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most > > > low-cost CCDs. > > > > > > As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on > > > LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing > > > with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each > > > cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I > > > can set it to "scan" every so often as well. > > > > > > I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot > > > side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down, > > > overhead duct capturing panel. > > > > > > For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually > > > has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus > > > electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular > > > about specific device you are looking for. > > > > > > Hiroo > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > > > Behalf Of Pat Shea > > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM > > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > > > > > Hiroo, > > > > > > I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the > > > engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It > > > looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage > > > of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, > > > at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to > > > see/record what's going on inside the cowl during > > > flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B > > > switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to > > > find a company that sells a color, waterproof, > > > "helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: > > > www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look > > > at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > > > screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > --- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > > > > One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > > > > have been researching > > > > this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > > > > wingtip (perhaps on > > > > the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > > > > would offer a way to > > > > "see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > > > > will also serve as > > > > "rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > > > > feed for your > > > > in-flight footage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > > > > days, and a small LCD > > > > monitors can be had for about the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hiroo > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 06:10:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:10:46 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Message-ID: <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> I wonder about fire detection equipment. You don't want false positives, that could be as bad or worse than a real fire. If I thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the speed brake, at cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and shock cooling that mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find out later that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed off field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not good. I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, MUX boxes and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks have never owned and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes a major amount of time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive and well, now you want to add more? I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where people died? Would money and time be better spent on really clean and secure engine installations? Scott Fred Marconi wrote: > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH A > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND > LAND. > > FRED > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hiroo Umeno" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > > >>Pat, >> >>CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most >>low-cost CCDs. >> >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each >>cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well. >> >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down, >>overhead duct capturing panel. >> >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually >>has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus >>electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular >>about specific device you are looking for. >> >>Hiroo >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On >>Behalf Of Pat Shea >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection >> >>Hiroo, >> >>I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the >>engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It >>looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage >>of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl during >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof, >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? >> >>Pat >> >>--- Hiroo Umeno wrote: >> >>>One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I >>>have been researching >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the >>>wingtip (perhaps on >>>the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it >>>would offer a way to >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it >>>will also serve as >>>"rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a >>>feed for your >>>in-flight footage. >>> >>> >>> >>>The cameras can be had for less than $100 these >>>days, and a small LCD >>>monitors can be had for about the same. >>> >>> >>> >>>Hiroo >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >>Do you Yahoo!? >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >>http://sbc.yahoo.com >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 06:20:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:20:48 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: <00f801c34ceb$2ed76740$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717214733.02ee4290@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717220911.03ae4090@mail.adelphia.net> I know of one fire in a canard (long ez) and 3 in conventional planes (regular certified stuff.) The fire in the Long EZ was fatal, it burned away his control system before he knew what was happening. In the certified birds, one in a Malibu burned through the firewall before they knew what was going on, killed the CFI and horribly disfigured the student. The other two knew they had fires and stopped the engines and deadsticked, and lived. The key is knowing that you have a fire. In a pusher, without detection devices, there's no way to know. There are plenty of planes - experimental and non - flying without equipment that would reduce their risk. An awful lot of planes and pilots are VFR, the vast majority don't have parachutes. The pilots have decided that the cost, either in money or weight or inconvenience, isn't worth the reduced risk, whether that reduction is big or small. It's their choice. Fire detection is pretty cheap, both in money and weight. Like anything you can find an expensive, complicated way to do it, but just heat sensors about as good as you're going to get. A meter is an interesting idea, I'd be curious to know what kind of temps the inside of the cowl sees in flight. Windows in the firewall? I wouldn't ever do it, but I've heard MUCH worse ideas in brainstorming sessions. At 01:12 AM 7/18/03 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks Richard: > >I was just giving an answer to this camera issue. We are going crazy with >this engine fire stuff. How many Velocities are flying without a problem? >The instructions call for a shut off valve and a year ago we were talking of >temp sensors from Radio Shack of which I am installing two in two different >locations. The meter was just an idea to replace the camera and the glass, >which I think is a little too much. > >Have you ever heard of fire in other planes? Give me a brake, if Velocity >is a time bomb then forward engine planes are smoke chambers traps. > >Fred. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 06:42:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 01:42:28 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <016a01c34cef$5ffe4560$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> DEAD ON. WELL THE FIRST WORD IS NOT NICE, I REALIZE, FOR PILOTS TO HEAR. COULD HAVE SAID BULLS EYE! FRED ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 1:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > I wonder about fire detection equipment. > > You don't want false positives, that could be as bad or worse than a > real fire. If I thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the > speed brake, at cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and shock > cooling that mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find out > later that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed off > field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not good. > > I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, MUX boxes > and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks have never owned > and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes a major amount of > time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive and well, now you > want to add more? > > I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but > exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where people > died? Would money and time be better spent on really clean and secure > engine installations? > > Scott > > > > Fred Marconi wrote: > > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH A > > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT > > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND > > LAND. > > > > FRED > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Hiroo Umeno" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > > > > > > >>Pat, > >> > >>CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets > >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine > >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most > >>low-cost CCDs. > >> > >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on > >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing > >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each > >>cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I > >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well. > >> > >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot > >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down, > >>overhead duct capturing panel. > >> > >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually > >>has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus > >>electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular > >>about specific device you are looking for. > >> > >>Hiroo > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > >>Behalf Of Pat Shea > >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > >> > >>Hiroo, > >> > >>I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the > >>engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It > >>looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage > >>of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, > >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to > >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl during > >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B > >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to > >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof, > >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: > >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look > >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? > >> > >>Pat > >> > >>--- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > >> > >>>One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > >>>have been researching > >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > >>>wingtip (perhaps on > >>>the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > >>>would offer a way to > >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > >>>will also serve as > >>>"rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > >>>feed for your > >>>in-flight footage. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > >>>days, and a small LCD > >>>monitors can be had for about the same. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Hiroo > >> > >> > >> > >>__________________________________ > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >>http://sbc.yahoo.com > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 06:35:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:35:17 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F178715.6010901@tnstaafl.net> A quik and very unscientific search of the NTSB records shows From 95 to this year Lancairs 47 accidents , 18 were fatal Velocitys 24 accidents, 6 were fatal I don't have any idea how many Lancairs are flying or Velocitys. I don't know why 1 out of 2.5 accidents in Lancairs are fatal while Velocity's are 1 out of 4? I do think the Velocity is safer than most. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 06:40:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 01:40:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sidesticks and Centred Throttle Quadrants References: <000501c34cb4$19e57c00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> <009001c34cc8$b29e6100$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <003f01c34cef$294c8040$0300a8c0@DAD> The factory has not experimented with dual side stick controls - so there is not a lot that I can add to the discussion of how they might work in terms of comfort and "controllability". I've found the center stick (which is really a side stick in a sense) in the Velocity to be quite comfortable - especially with the arm rest. Pilots (like myself) who are right hand dominant sometimes have an awkward time of flying, copying clearances, and changing radio frequencies at the same time - but I would not call it a "problem". Mike Hilliard (sp), the fellow who designed and flew a turbine powered Velocity (who tragically passed away in a crash landing following a flameout in San Diego) had side control sticks. From what I heard, it flew fine. Brian Gallagher recently designed some side sticks for Doug K's Velocity XL-RG. Doug's aircraft is expected to undergo first flight in the next week or so - and I'm anxious to learn how the side sticks feel. SB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Poole" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:05 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Sidesticks and Centred Throttle Quadrants > Maybe Scott Baker or others who have flown various versions might be able to > illuminate this area for us?.....how do the side stick options pan out > compared to the existing centre stick in terms of flyability and effort on > long haul flights? I found being able to rest my arm on the centre console > and use my wrist to do most of the flying when in cruise in the existing > (KISS) arrangement is very comfortable whereas I'd presume one would need to > put an arm rest for the side sticks to achieve the same level of comfort ??. > > I think we would all acknowledge that the areas of the fuselage where > Velocity's are at a premium for space when seated or when entering or > egressing the aircraft is where the sidesticks and arm rest would be > located. > > Sob, wish I could have made OSH! > > Greg in Sydney > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Kanczuzewski" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:38 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants > > > > Side stick photos are in the next installment. > > Doug > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > > Behalf Of RJohn15183@aol.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:31 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Throttle Quadrants > > > > In a message dated 7/14/2003 1:37:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > doug@customstudio.com writes: > > > > > Like you I used the Aircraft Spruce unit but mounted it > > > slightly differently. > > > > GROG LIKE! > > > > Do you have the yoke? It does not look like there is room for it so how > > did you do the left side stick (assuming no yoke)? A left stick and > > center throttle would have made the velo a whole lot easier to fly. > > > > DM Rob > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 08:10:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:10:11 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <001501c34cfb$a17641d0$42b070d1@jeffreyhome> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C34CB8.92832EB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree! I think we were just 'what if-ing' a SIMPLE fail safe way = to rule out a false positive due to the points you mention...I certainly = do not want to add a MORE complex system to monitor the original/simpler = system of thermal fuses (which I plan to have). I certainly do not have = the answer yet! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > I wonder about fire detection equipment. >=20 > You don't want false positives, that could be as bad or worse than a=20 > real fire. If I thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the=20 > speed brake, at cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and = shock=20 > cooling that mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find = out=20 > later that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed = off=20 > field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not = good. >=20 > I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, MUX = boxes=20 > and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks have never owned = > and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes a major amount of=20 > time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive and well, now you=20 > want to add more? >=20 > I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but=20 > exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where = people=20 > died? Would money and time be better spent on really clean and secure = > engine installations? >=20 > Scott >=20 >=20 >=20 > Fred Marconi wrote: > > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH = A > > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at = THAT > > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF = FIRE AND > > LAND. > >=20 > > FRED > >=20 > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Hiroo Umeno" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >>Pat, > >> > >>CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data = sheets > >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine > >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of = most > >>low-cost CCDs. > >> > >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on > >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same = housing > >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each > >>cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is = that I > >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well. > >> > >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot > >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking = forward-down, > >>overhead duct capturing panel. > >> > >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) = usually > >>has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the = surplus > >>electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not = particular > >>about specific device you are looking for. > >> > >>Hiroo > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > >>Behalf Of Pat Shea > >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > >> > >>Hiroo, > >> > >>I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the > >>engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It > >>looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage > >>of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, > >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to > >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl during > >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B > >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to > >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof, > >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: > >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look > >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? > >> > >>Pat > >> > >>--- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > >> > >>>One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > >>>have been researching > >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > >>>wingtip (perhaps on > >>>the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > >>>would offer a way to > >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > >>>will also serve as > >>>"rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > >>>feed for your > >>>in-flight footage. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > >>>days, and a small LCD > >>>monitors can be had for about the same. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Hiroo > >> > >> > >> > >>__________________________________ > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >>http://sbc.yahoo.com > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >=20 > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >=20 > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >=20 > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >=20 > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C34CB8.92832EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree!    I think we were = just 'what=20 if-ing' a SIMPLE fail safe way to rule out a false = positive=20 due to the points you mention...I certainly do not want to = add a MORE=20 complex system to monitor the original/simpler system of thermal fuses = (which I=20 plan to have). I certainly do not have the answer = yet!

----- Original Message ----- =
From: "Scott Derrick" <scott@tnstaafl.net>

To: <reflector@tvbf.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire=20 detection

> I=20 wonder about fire detection equipment.
>
> You don't want = false=20 positives, that could be as bad or worse than a
> real = fire. If I=20 thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the
> speed = brake, at=20 cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and shock
> cooling = that=20 mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find out
> = later=20 that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed off =
> field=20 and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not = good.
>=20
> I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, = MUX=20 boxes
> and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks = have never=20 owned
> and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes = a major=20 amount of
> time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive = and well,=20 now you
> want to add more?
>
> I realize that an = engine=20 fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but
> exactly how many = airplanes=20 have gone down because of a fire where people
> died? Would = money=20 and time be better spent on really clean and secure
> engine=20 installations?
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> = Fred=20 Marconi wrote:
> > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE = WOULD BE=20 THE SIMPLEST WITH A
> > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE = GETS ABOVE=20 A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT
> > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED = CONSIDER=20 THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND
> > LAND.
> > =
>=20 > FRED
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- =
> >=20 From: "Hiroo Umeno" <humeno@microsoft.com>
>=20 > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
>=20 > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM
> > Subject: RE:=20 REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> >
> >
> = >=20
> >>Pat,
> >>
> >>CCDs are quite = vulnerable=20 to heat. You need to look at the data sheets
> >>for = the=20 operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine
>=20 >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of = most
> >>low-cost CCDs.
> >>
> >>As = for=20 switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on
>=20 >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the = same=20 housing
> >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that = corresponds to each
> >>cams I can switch through. The = cool=20 thing about using the PIC is that I
> >>can set it to "scan" = every=20 so often as well.
> >>
> >>I am thinking of = mounting=20 cams on the following locations. Co-pilot
> >>side = bottom=20 winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down,
>=20 >>overhead duct capturing panel.
> >>
> = >>For=20 supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com)=20 usually
> >>has some good selection of them. You can = also=20 scour some of the surplus
> >>electronics outlet and get a = fairly=20 good deal if you are not particular
> >>about specific = device you=20 are looking for.
> >>
> >>Hiroo
> = >>
>=20 >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> = >>From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On
> >>Behalf Of Pat = Shea
>=20 >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM
> >>To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
>=20 >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> = >>
>=20 >>Hiroo,
> >>
> >>I'm leaning towards = keeping the=20 small CCD cams in the
> >>engine compartment primarily for = fire=20 detection. It
> >>looks like it's going to take two to get = full=20 coverage
> >>of the critical areas. There may also be some=20 benefit,
> >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being = able=20 to
> >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl = during
>=20 >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B
>=20 >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to
>=20 >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof,
> = >>"helmet"=20 cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount:
> = >>www.helmetcamera.com. I=20 haven't had a chance to look
> >>at LCD monitors yet (or the = ability=20 to split the
> >>screen) - any leads on a good source for=20 these??
> >>
> >>Pat
> >>
>=20 >>--- Hiroo Umeno <humeno@microsoft.com>=20 wrote:
> >>
> >>>One idea may be to install = the=20 "wingtip cam". I
> >>>have been researching
> = >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the
> = >>>wingtip (perhaps on
> >>>the lower winglet) = that can=20 be panned. Not only it
> >>>would offer a way = to
>=20 >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it
>=20 >>>will also serve as
> >>>"rear-view mirror" = when=20 starting engine, and offer a
> >>>feed for your
>=20 >>>in-flight footage.
> >>>
> = >>>
>=20 >>>
> >>>The cameras can be had for less than = $100=20 these
> >>>days, and a small LCD
> = >>>monitors can=20 be had for about the same.
> >>>
> = >>>
>=20 >>>
> >>>Hiroo
> >>
> = >>
>=20 >>
> >>__________________________________
> = >>Do=20 you Yahoo!?
> >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per = month!
>=20 >>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>=20 >>_______________________________________________
> = >>To=20 change your email address, visit
>=20 >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> = >>
>=20 >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> = >>
>=20 >>_______________________________________________
> = >>To=20 change your email address, visit
> >
> > = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> >>Visit the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >>
> >
> >
> = >=20 _______________________________________________
> > To change = your=20 email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >
>
>
>=20 _______________________________________________
> To change your = email=20 address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C34CB8.92832EB0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 09:12:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:12:57 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> <001501c34cfb$a17641d0$42b070d1@jeffreyhome> Message-ID: <020801c34d04$689c7d80$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0205_01C34D58.37678DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Jeff, Can you stop "yelling"? ...the big bold type posts are not that easy to = scan compared to the usual. Well - somebody had to say it! Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeffrey Clough=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:10 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection I agree! I think we were just 'what if-ing' a SIMPLE fail safe way = to rule out a false positive due to the points you mention...I certainly = do not want to add a MORE complex system to monitor the original/simpler = system of thermal fuses (which I plan to have). I certainly do not have = the answer yet! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > I wonder about fire detection equipment. >=20 > You don't want false positives, that could be as bad or worse than a = > real fire. If I thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, = the=20 > speed brake, at cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and = shock=20 > cooling that mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find = out=20 > later that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed = off=20 > field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... = not good. >=20 > I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, MUX = boxes=20 > and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks have never = owned=20 > and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes a major amount = of=20 > time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive and well, now = you=20 > want to add more? >=20 > I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but=20 > exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where = people=20 > died? Would money and time be better spent on really clean and = secure=20 > engine installations? >=20 > Scott >=20 >=20 >=20 > Fred Marconi wrote: > > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST = WITH A > > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. = at THAT > > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF = FIRE AND > > LAND. > >=20 > > FRED > >=20 > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Hiroo Umeno" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >>Pat, > >> > >>CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data = sheets > >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine > >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of = most > >>low-cost CCDs. > >> > >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on > >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same = housing > >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to = each > >>cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is = that I > >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well. > >> > >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. = Co-pilot > >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking = forward-down, > >>overhead duct capturing panel. > >> > >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) = usually > >>has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the = surplus > >>electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not = particular > >>about specific device you are looking for. > >> > >>Hiroo > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] = On > >>Behalf Of Pat Shea > >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > >> > >>Hiroo, > >> > >>I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the > >>engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It > >>looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage > >>of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, > >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to > >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl during > >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B > >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to > >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof, > >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: > >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look > >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? > >> > >>Pat > >> > >>--- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > >> > >>>One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > >>>have been researching > >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > >>>wingtip (perhaps on > >>>the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > >>>would offer a way to > >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > >>>will also serve as > >>>"rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > >>>feed for your > >>>in-flight footage. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > >>>days, and a small LCD > >>>monitors can be had for about the same. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Hiroo > >> > >> > >> > >>__________________________________ > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >>http://sbc.yahoo.com > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >=20 > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >=20 > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >=20 > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >=20 > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0205_01C34D58.37678DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Jeff,

Can you stop "yelling"? ...the big bold = type=20 posts are not that easy to scan compared to the usual.

Well - somebody had to say it!

Greg in Sydney.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeffrey=20 Clough
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 = 5:10 PM

Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Secondary fire=20 detection

I agree!    I think we were = just=20 'what if-ing' a SIMPLE fail safe way to rule out a = false=20 positive due to the points you mention...I certainly do not want to=20 add a MORE complex system to monitor the original/simpler = system of=20 thermal fuses (which I plan to have). I certainly do not have the = answer=20 yet!

----- Original Message ----- =
From: "Scott Derrick" = <scott@tnstaafl.net>

To: <reflector@tvbf.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire=20 detection

>=20 I wonder about fire detection equipment.
>
> You don't = want false=20 positives, that could be as bad or worse than a
> real = fire. If I=20 thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the
> speed = brake, at=20 cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and shock
> = cooling that=20 mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find out =
> later=20 that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed off =
>=20 field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not = good.
>
> I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, = multiple=20 cameras, MUX boxes
> and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy = these=20 folks have never owned
> and maintained a flying airplane=20 before." It takes a major amount of
> time and money to = keep a=20 standard radio stack alive and well, now you
> want to add=20 more?
>
> I realize that an engine fire is not as = apparent in a=20 pusher, but
> exactly how many airplanes have gone down because = of a=20 fire where people
> died? Would money and time be better = spent on=20 really clean and secure
> engine installations?
> =
>=20 Scott
>
>
>
> Fred Marconi wrote:
> = > SOME=20 TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH = A
> >=20 WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. = at=20 THAT
> > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH = TEMPERATURE A=20 SIGN OF FIRE AND
> > LAND.
> >
> > = FRED
>=20 >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: = "Hiroo=20 Umeno" <humeno@microsoft.com>
> > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
>=20 > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM
> > Subject: RE:=20 REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> >
> >
> = >=20
> >>Pat,
> >>
> >>CCDs are quite=20 vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets
>=20 >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the = engine
> >>compartment is likely to far exceed the = allowable heat=20 rating of most
> >>low-cost CCDs.
> >>
> = >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux = based=20 on
> >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to = put this=20 in the same housing
> >>with the LCD so that there are = four=20 buttons that corresponds to each
> >>cams I can switch=20 through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I
>=20 >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well.
> = >>
>=20 >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following = locations. =20 Co-pilot
> >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under = nose=20 looking forward-down,
> >>overhead duct capturing = panel.
>=20 >>
> >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing=20 (www.earthlcd.com)=20 usually
> >>has some good selection of them. You can = also=20 scour some of the surplus
> >>electronics outlet and get a = fairly=20 good deal if you are not particular
> >>about specific = device you=20 are looking for.
> >>
> >>Hiroo
>=20 >>
> >>
> >>-----Original = Message-----
>=20 >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On
> >>Behalf Of Pat=20 Shea
> >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM
>=20 >>To: reflector@tvbf.org
>=20 >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
>=20 >>
> >>Hiroo,
> >>
> >>I'm = leaning=20 towards keeping the small CCD cams in the
> >>engine = compartment=20 primarily for fire detection. It
> >>looks like it's going = to take=20 two to get full coverage
> >>of the critical areas. There = may also=20 be some benefit,
> >>at least during the tweaking stage, = of being=20 able to
> >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl=20 during
> >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means = an=20 A/B
> >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was = able=20 to
> >>find a company that sells a color, = waterproof,
>=20 >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount:
>=20 >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look
>=20 >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the
>=20 >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these??
>=20 >>
> >>Pat
> >>
> >>--- = Hiroo Umeno=20 <humeno@microsoft.com>=20 wrote:
> >>
> >>>One idea may be to install = the=20 "wingtip cam". I
> >>>have been = researching
>=20 >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on = the
>=20 >>>wingtip (perhaps on
> >>>the lower winglet) = that=20 can be panned. Not only it
> >>>would offer a way = to
> >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but=20 it
> >>>will also serve as
> = >>>"rear-view=20 mirror" when starting engine, and offer a
> >>>feed for = your
> >>>in-flight footage.
> = >>>
>=20 >>>
> >>>
> >>>The cameras can = be had=20 for less than $100 these
> >>>days, and a small = LCD
>=20 >>>monitors can be had for about the same.
>=20 >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>=20 >>>Hiroo
> >>
> >>
> = >>
>=20 >>__________________________________
> >>Do you=20 Yahoo!?
> >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per = month!
>=20 >>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>=20 >>_______________________________________________
> = >>To=20 change your email address, visit
>=20 >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>=20 >>
> >>Visit the gallery! = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>=20 >>
>=20 >>_______________________________________________
> = >>To=20 change your email address, visit
> >
> > = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> >>Visit the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >>
> >
> > =
> >=20 _______________________________________________
> > To change = your=20 email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >
>
>
>=20 _______________________________________________
> To change your = email=20 address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0205_01C34D58.37678DA0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 13:27:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:27:49 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) Message-ID: <002601c34d28$00f82980$0100a8c0@mshome.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Owens" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:01 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) > I relocated some holes at the top of my old channel style nose gear mount > (fixed gear) so I now have 2 degrees negative caster when empty. > > I did some high speed taxi test with two of us > #200 in the front. My > modification seems to eliminate the shimmy (but I still have my break-out > lock just in case). I tried bouncing the nose gear several times with and > without the nose gear locked. Felt no sign of shimmy.I think I may just have > a fix. > Wayne > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:06 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Wheel Shimmy Brake Problem (Update) > > > > So far have: > > Balanced and checked nose wheel tire for out of round. > > Adjusted main gear wheels for proper toe in and camber. > > Tightened main gear and nose gear pivot bolts to minimize excess play > > Replaced nose gear fork as there was considerable wear in previous fork > > bushing. > > Tightened shimmy damper force on nose wheel well above numbers given by > > Velocity. > > The only item I can find out of spec is that the bottom end of the nose > gear > > strut tilts forward about 7 degrees (from vertical) and factory says it > should > > be about 2 degrees. Note: Adding weight to nose or braking causes the 7 > > degrees to INCREASE. > > > > Still get some nose wheel shimmy (not real serious) around 20 to 30 mph. > (1) > > when applying fairly heavy braking and am alone in A/C. (2) when I have a > > front seat passenger without any braking ( applying brakes aggravates the > shimmy). > > > > Anyone out there having similar problems or have any suggestions? > > > > Don White N19DW XL/RG > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 13:33:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Simon Aegerter) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:33:14 +0200 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: >exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where people died? Scott: I know of four Velocities. Plus two where people were safe. Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 13:35:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:35:10 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) In-Reply-To: <3F1713B8.2000800@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: We also put a fuel cutoff at the sump tank, so your not alone Scott. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 4:23 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) I thought all Velocity's had a fuel cutoff at the sump tank, controllable from the pilot seat? Is mine unusual? Scott Jim Agnew wrote: > Well Ronnie, I don't think that I'm crazy and long ago I > installed a "POSSIBLE FIRE DETECTION system" in my aft > cowling. > > Is the Velocity a time bomb, no, however it does have what > in my opinion is a serious defect in the lack of a fuel > cutoff. If you do get a fire you have two choices, keep > the engine running and if it is a gas fire keep pumping gas > into the fire or shut your engine down and try to get on > the ground as soon as possible. One problem, the prop will > probably windmill and keep pumping gas into the fire. > > Now you know why I have a fuel cutoff valve in the plane on > the inside of the engine bulkhead. > > It is an individual choice and you have either not thought > about the problem or have dismissed it. Others see that > there is a potential problem and are looking for solutions > and that is exactly what the reflector is for. > > Jim > > > > --- Tom Martino wrote: > >>Thank God the general public doesn't ready these >>postings! A window in >>the firewall to see a fire? Are we going mad? >> >>It sounds as if Velocities are flying time bombs just >>waiting to burst >>into flames. Come on ... lets get real. >> >>We should put all of our efforts into preventing fires to >>begin with, >>then we should explore realistic detection equipment that >>won't require >>peaking through a freekin window behind the back seat. >> >>I can jus imagine how that window will go over with my >>passengers: >> >>"Tom, isn't that nice a rear window!" >> >>Oh that, I put it there to spot flames in the engine >>compartment. >> >>After fire detection, perhaps a fire suppression system >>would be in >>order. >> >>Are Velocities that prone to fire? Are we exaggerating? >> >> >>Back on the topic of a window ... ever see your oven >>glass when smoke >>and fire actually erupt in the oven. It goes black from >>soot. >> >>I have to believe that there are other modifications we >>can do besides a >>fire window. >> >> >> > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 13:50:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:50:03 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: Message-ID: <009f01c34d2b$1c0c3380$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Me too. (fuel cut off valve) Now I am going to put a temperature sensor in the cowl exit and some thermal fuses near the firewall in front of my forward facing exhausts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pollock" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:35 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) | We also put a fuel cutoff at the sump tank, so your not alone Scott. | | Mike | | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Derrick | Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 4:23 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) | | | I thought all Velocity's had a fuel cutoff at the sump tank, | controllable from the pilot seat? Is mine unusual? | | Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 14:58:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:58:37 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717214733.02ee4290@mail.adelphia.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030717220911.03ae4090@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F17FD0D.BDC746C0@dixie-net.com> How does the fire happen? John richard@riley.net wrote: > I know of one fire in a canard (long ez) and 3 in conventional planes > (regular certified stuff.) The fire in the Long EZ was fatal, it burned > away his control system before he knew what was happening. In the > certified birds, one in a Malibu burned through the firewall before they > knew what was going on, killed the CFI and horribly disfigured the > student. The other two knew they had fires and stopped the engines and > deadsticked, and lived. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 16:18:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:18:32 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: <3F17FD0D.BDC746C0@dixie-net.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717214733.02ee4290@mail.adelphia.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030717220911.03ae4090@mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718080849.02cc33e0@mail.adelphia.net> I was working from memory. A little online research, and I find these. From CP59, Page 8, April, 1989 A Washington Long-EZ was circling low level over a sparsely inhabited area when the pilot felt/heard a creaking sound and immediately smelled gasoline. There was obviously a major gasoline leak as he picked out a relatively smooth area and executed an emergency landing. The pilot got out and on his way out thought he saw a hole in the fuel gauge area but right then the fuel caught fire and, unfortunately, the entire aircraft was consumed. The pilot was not injured but the cause of the fuel leak/fire is unknown. There is a highly speculative theory that the aircraft was hit by a bullet! This pilot was a Vietnam war helicopter pilot and highly experienced in such events and is sure that is what he felt/heard just before he smelled the gasoline. Not much we can learn here except, perhaps, to refrain from flying low over what could be someone's property - someone who may not want your flying over them and may take action against you. Keep in mind, this is speculative theory, not proven, but a strong possibility. An experienced pilot, well known to RAF and respected by all who know him as a man of integrity. -------------------------------------------- A Los Angeles Long-EZ pilot/builder installed a breather system from his engine to one of his exhaust headers, similar to the system developed, tested and sold by Wes Gardner and similar to one Mike and Sally have had on their Long-EZ for over 5 years now (with excellent results). The only difference was the fact that an anti-backfire valve (one directional check valve) that Wes calls out and that MIke and Sally have installed, was omitted. On top of that, this aircraft was known to have one cylinder pumping oil (turned out to be a seized piston ring). Oil consumption was very high and this pilot had filled it with 8 quarts prior to taxiing out for take off. Just prior to taking off, the tower informed the pilot that smoke was coming from the engine. His rear seat passenger looked back and saw flames coming from the cowlnear the wing root. The tower dispatched a fire truck and the fire was quickly extinguished. The Long-EZ was seriously damaged, all engine compartment wiring was burned and the foam was melted out of the wing root. It will take several months of hard work to fix. What caused this fire? Well, this pilot and Mike, at RAF, don't fully agree. The builder feels that the breather tube welded into the exhaust header cracked, allowing oil onto the outside of the hot exhaust, which caught fire. Mike believes, based on his own experience, that without the anti-backfire valve, the hot exhaust gases went into the breather line, melting or burning it off. Since the engine was burning excessive amounts of oil, this line probably had oil in it and when the rubber hose caught fire, it also ignited the oil which then turned into a hot fire causing lots of damage including melting the rudder cable pulley and bracket. Mike speaks from experience! When he first installed his breather system, he also tried it without the check valve, or an anti-backfire valve. He was lucky, he ran it on the ground and, when the hose melted through, he saw it before any more damage could occur. There was no fire in his case, probably because his engine was not using much oil, but the hose from the crankcase to the tube welded into the exhaust was melted/burned beyond recognition in a matter of minutes! If you are planning on installing a breather system such as Wes Gardner's, be absolutely certain you do it right! He has lots of experience with this, so contact him, better yet, buy his kit and install it exactly per his instructions, and you will have an excellent breather system that does not throw oil all over your cowling. "A Long-EZ on its first flight after installing a newly overhauled engine suffered an in-flight engine fire and was unable to make it back to the runway. The engine quit on approach and the pilot attempted to land in a housing tract. There was not enough room and he rolled into a car, which also burst into flames. He landed under control, thus, in-flight structural failure or control failure are not suspect. Sadly, the pilot was killed by fire. The fire was so intense in the engine/cowling area that the FAA accident investigator was unable to determine what could have started the fire. The fuel pumps, carburetor, etc., were consumed. The airplane had been airborne for only a few minutes. Reportedly, the engine was an 0-320 and he was using auto fuel. We may never know what caused the fire, but it is easy to overlook a loose fitting - we have done it ourselves. A fuel leak, particularly auto fuel, could be ignited by hot exhaust or any number of things. Always try to have at least one other person go over your work, especially engine related work like plumbing or control systems. The more pairs of eyes that look at your engine installation, the better chance that you will catch some overlooked items. This is specifically important if you are developing new, unapproved installations. Never, ever, cowl an engine that has been worked on without a brief engine run to check for leaks. We, here at RAF, have more than once found fairly drastic leaks during the leak-check engine run." At 09:58 AM 7/18/03 -0400, you wrote: >How does the fire happen? > >John > >richard@riley.net wrote: > > > I know of one fire in a canard (long ez) and 3 in conventional planes > > (regular certified stuff.) The fire in the Long EZ was fatal, it burned > > away his control system before he knew what was happening. In the > > certified birds, one in a Malibu burned through the firewall before they > > knew what was going on, killed the CFI and horribly disfigured the > > student. The other two knew they had fires and stopped the engines and > > deadsticked, and lived. > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 16:54:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:54:39 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: <22.3c122c42.2c49723f@aol.com> --part1_22.3c122c42.2c49723f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott What is your FAX. Number. I will send details. Mack --part1_22.3c122c42.2c49723f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott
What is your FAX. Number. I will send details.
Mack --part1_22.3c122c42.2c49723f_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 16:59:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Tvedte) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:59:55 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's Message-ID: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F04181455@exchange.comp-sol.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D45.A1BBB917 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2NvdHQsDQogDQpPbmUgcmVhc29uIGlzIGxpa2VseSBnbGlkZSByYXRpby4uLi50aG9zZSBzaG9y dCBmYXN0IHdpbmdzIG1ha2UgaXQgZ28gZmFzdC4uLmJ1dA0KIA0KSm9obg0KDQoJLS0tLS1Pcmln aW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQoJRnJvbTogU2NvdHQgRGVycmljayBbbWFpbHRvOnNjb3R0QHRu c3RhYWZsLm5ldF0gDQoJU2VudDogRnJpIDcvMTgvMjAwMyAxMjozNSBBTSANCglUbzogcmVmbGVj dG9yQHR2YmYub3JnIA0KCUNjOiANCglTdWJqZWN0OiBSRUZMRUNUT1I6VidzIHZzIEwncw0KCQ0K CQ0KDQoJQSBxdWlrIGFuZCB2ZXJ5IHVuc2NpZW50aWZpYyBzZWFyY2ggb2YgdGhlIE5UU0IgcmVj b3JkcyBzaG93cw0KCQ0KCSBGcm9tIDk1IHRvIHRoaXMgeWVhcg0KCQ0KCUxhbmNhaXJzICA0NyBh 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EFt/VIYDAAcQXgIAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABTQ09UVCxPTkVSRUFTT05J U0xJS0VMWUdMSURFUkFUSU9USE9TRVNIT1JURkFTVFdJTkdTTUFLRUlUR09GQVNUQlVUSk9ITi0t LS0tT1JJR0lOQUxNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS1GUk9NAAAAAAIBfwABAAAAPwAAADw2QUM4OTI3QzVFRTE3 OTRFOEE4RDg1OThCRjZEN0YwNDE4MTQ1NUBleGNoYW5nZS5jb21wLXNvbC5jb20+AADDSw== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D45.A1BBB917-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 19:27:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection In-Reply-To: <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <20030718182732.12131.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Derrick wrote: > I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, > multiple cameras, MUX boxes and what not. My cynical > nature says "Boy these folks have never owned > and maintained a flying airplane before." Wrong - previously owned/maintained three. > It takes a major amount of time and money to keep a > standard radio stack alive and well> Time for new radios or a better installation... >now you want to add more? What, you've got a dash full of gadgets, rg, and whatever else and your going to stop at the fire prevention?? It's more a matter of priority... > I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in > a pusher, but exactly how many airplanes have gone > down because of a fire where people died? Too many... Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 23:58:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:58:01 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D80.09BFC227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please, please, please ... I need information. I know there are a few weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And I know there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run into this yet? =20 I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop. Ouch! I can't use it. The prop will strike at a normal rotation. So I did some measuring ... and unless I'm crazy ... it looks like I need 30" blades to be safe! That's only a 60" prop! =20 Can that be so? I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation. And my plane in standard in every way (except for the engine). =20 The factory told me I could expect a problem with clearance ... but they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo and a four-blade prop. Was it longer than 60"? Was the point of rotation changed by moving the gear? (that would be too late for me). =20 What is the alternative? =20 My prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be able to come up with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower configuration. Of course, I would only have to get a large home equity loan! =20 HELP!!!!!!!! =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D80.09BFC227 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please, please, please ... I need information. I know there are a few weirdoes = like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And I know there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run = into this yet?

I did some rotation tests with my brand new = three-blade MT Prop. Ouch! I can’t use it. The prop will strike at a = normal rotation. So I did some measuring ... and = unless I’m crazy ... it looks like I need 30” blades to be safe! That’s only a 60” = prop!

Can that be so? I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation. And my plane in standard in every way (except for the = engine).

The factory told me I could expect a problem with = clearance ... but they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo = and a four-blade prop. Was it = longer than 60”? Was the point of rotation = changed by moving the gear? (that would be too late for me).

What is the alternative?

My prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be = able to come up with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower = configuration. Of course, I would only have to = get a large home equity loan!

HELP!!!!!!!!

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D80.09BFC227-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 00:23:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:23:15 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718162134.03f08020@mail.adelphia.net> At 04:58 PM 7/18/03 -0600, you wrote: >What is the alternative? >HELP!!!!!!!! I hate to suggest it, but you might consider a fixed pitch prop. So you'll only have 2000-2500 fpm climb on take off. There are worse things in life. From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 00:28:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:28:59 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! Message-ID: But can I get one short and powerful? -----Original Message----- From: richard@riley.net [mailto:richard@riley.net] Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:23 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! At 04:58 PM 7/18/03 -0600, you wrote: >What is the alternative? >HELP!!!!!!!! I hate to suggest it, but you might consider a fixed pitch prop. So you'll only have 2000-2500 fpm climb on take off. There are worse things in life. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 00:37:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:37:59 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718163544.03a9b1b0@mail.adelphia.net> Talk to Craig Catto, he's willing to do custom stuff. It does sound like you're going to have to go to a 5 blade. I'm surprised - we didn't have those kind of clearance problems when we went to the 540 on the Berkut. What's the big geometry change between the 173 RG and the SL that gives the clearance? Is the gear longer, or is the engine moved forward? At 05:28 PM 7/18/03 -0600, you wrote: >But can I get one short and powerful? > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: richard@riley.net [mailto:richard@riley.net] >Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:23 PM >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! > >At 04:58 PM 7/18/03 -0600, you wrote: > > >What is the alternative? > > >HELP!!!!!!!! > >I hate to suggest it, but you might consider a fixed pitch prop. So >you'll >only have 2000-2500 fpm climb on take off. There are worse things in >life. > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 00:47:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:47:38 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: <36.44a07b64.2c49e11a@aol.com> --part1_36.44a07b64.2c49e11a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me to Mack --part1_36.44a07b64.2c49e11a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me to
Mack --part1_36.44a07b64.2c49e11a_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 00:54:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:54:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! References: Message-ID: <000b01c34d87$f06265d0$0300a8c0@DAD> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C34D66.674194E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, I have had extensive discussions with MT-Propeller regarding your = airframe-engine combination. They recommend a 4-blade MTV-18 model = propeller with a 66" disk diameter. Denis Wood (the chap who recently = flew the Atlantic Ocean in his Lycoming 260hp IO-540 engine Velocity = 173RG) and Chuck Leher (who is building a similar model at the Velocity = Service Center in Sebastian, FL) both have this propeller. It is = working marvelously in Denis's aircraft. You may be able to "chop" the = length of your propeller to gain additional ground clearance - I will = check on this for you. However, I doubt that the result will be as = efficient as a 4-blade that is designed for this purpose. Note: You = will be able to sell your MTV-9 propeller. So I would recommend going = with the 4-blade and sell the 3-blade. The $$ difference is not as bad = as you might imagine. Pls call me at the factory on Monday to discuss = 772-589-1860. Best regards, Scott Baker ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 6:58 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! Please, please, please ... I need information. I know there are a few = weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And I know = there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run into this = yet? =20 I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop. = Ouch! I can't use it. The prop will strike at a normal rotation. So I = did some measuring ... and unless I'm crazy ... it looks like I need 30" = blades to be safe! That's only a 60" prop! =20 Can that be so? I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation. And my = plane in standard in every way (except for the engine). =20 The factory told me I could expect a problem with clearance ... but = they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo and a = four-blade prop. Was it longer than 60"? Was the point of rotation = changed by moving the gear? (that would be too late for me). =20 What is the alternative? =20 My prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be able to come up = with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower configuration. Of = course, I would only have to get a large home equity loan! =20 HELP!!!!!!!! =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C34D66.674194E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,

I have had extensive discussions with = MT-Propeller=20 regarding your airframe-engine combination. They recommend a = 4-blade=20 MTV-18 model propeller with a 66" disk diameter. Denis Wood (the = chap who=20 recently flew the Atlantic Ocean in his Lycoming 260hp IO-540 engine = Velocity=20 173RG) and Chuck Leher (who is building a similar model at the Velocity = Service=20 Center in Sebastian, FL) both have this propeller. It is working=20 marvelously in Denis's aircraft. You may be able to "chop" the = length of=20 your propeller to gain additional ground clearance - I will check on = this for=20 you. However, I doubt that the result will be as efficient as a = 4-blade=20 that is designed for this purpose. Note: You will be able to = sell=20 your MTV-9 propeller. So I would recommend going with the 4-blade = and sell=20 the 3-blade. The $$ difference is not as bad as you might = imagine. =20 Pls call me at the factory on Monday to discuss = 772-589-1860.

Best regards,

Scott Baker

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
To: reflector@www.tvbf.org =

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 = 6:58 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - = IO-540 COMBO=20 ... OH NO!

Please, please, please = ... I need=20 information. I know = there are a=20 few weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And I know there are some = special=20 challenges ... but have any of you run into this=20 yet?

I did some rotation = tests with my=20 brand new three-blade MT Prop. = Ouch! I can=92t = use it. The prop will strike at a = normal=20 rotation. So I did some = measuring=20 ... and unless I=92m crazy ... it looks like I need 30=94 blades to be = safe! That=92s only a 60=94=20 prop!

Can that be so? I believe I did not = exaggerate the=20 rotation. And my plane = in=20 standard in every way (except for the = engine).

The factory told me I = could expect=20 a problem with clearance ... but they said they had a plane there that = flew=20 away with my combo and a four-blade prop. Was it longer than = 60=94? Was the point of rotation = changed by=20 moving the gear? (that would be too late for = me).

What is the=20 alternative?

My prop show (an MT = Dealer) says=20 the factory may be able to come up with a custom five-blade prop for = my 325=20 horsepower configuration. Of=20 course, I would only have to get a large home equity=20 loan!

HELP!!!!!!!!

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C34D66.674194E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 19:26:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Yelling in my posts In-Reply-To: <020801c34d04$689c7d80$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <20030718182641.41671.qmail@web41613.mail.yahoo.com> --0-545676779-1058552801=:38594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii OOOpps...I apologize for that folks! Used to e-mailing the ol' folks back home......Jeff Clough Greg Poole wrote:Hey Jeff, Can you stop "yelling"? ...the big bold type posts are not that easy to scan compared to the usual. Well - somebody had to say it! Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeffrey Clough To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:10 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection I agree! I think we were just 'what if-ing' a SIMPLE fail safe way to rule out a false positive due to the points you mention...I certainly do not want to add a MORE complex system to monitor the original/simpler system of thermal fuses (which I plan to have). I certainly do not have the answer yet! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > I wonder about fire detection equipment. > > You don't want false positives, that could be as bad or worse than a > real fire. If I thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the > speed brake, at cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and shock > cooling that mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find out > later that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed off > field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not good. > > I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, MUX boxes > and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks have never owned > and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes a major amount of > time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive and well, now you > want to add more? > > I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but > exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where people > died? Would money and time be better spent on really clean and secure > engine installations? > > Scott > > > > Fred Marconi wrote: > > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH A > > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT > > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND > > LAND. > > > > FRED > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Hiroo Umeno" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > > > > > > > >>Pat, > >> > >>CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets > >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine > >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most > >>low-cost CCDs. > >> > >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on > >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing > >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each > >>cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I > >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well. > >> > >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot > >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down, > >>overhead duct capturing panel. > >> > >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually > >>has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus > >>electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular > >>about specific device you are looking for. > >> > >>Hiroo > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > >>Behalf Of Pat Shea > >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection > >> > >>Hiroo, > >> > >>I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the > >>engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It > >>looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage > >>of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit, > >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to > >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl during > >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B > >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to > >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof, > >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount: > >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look > >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the > >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these?? > >> > >>Pat > >> > >>--- Hiroo Umeno wrote: > >> > >>>One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I > >>>have been researching > >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the > >>>wingtip (perhaps on > >>>the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it > >>>would offer a way to > >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it > >>>will also serve as > >>>"rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a > >>>feed for your > >>>in-flight footage. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>The cameras can be had for less than $100 these > >>>days, and a small LCD > >>>monitors can be had for about the same. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Hiroo > >> > >> > >> > >>__________________________________ > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >>http://sbc.yahoo.com > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-545676779-1058552801=:38594 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
OOOpps...I apologize for that folks! Used to e-mailing the ol' folks back home......Jeff Clough

Greg Poole <gpoole@zeta.org.au> wrote:

Hey Jeff,

Can you stop "yelling"? ...the big bold type posts are not that easy to scan compared to the usual.

Well - somebody had to say it!

Greg in Sydney.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeffrey Clough

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:10 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection

I agree!    I think we were just 'what if-ing' a SIMPLE fail safe way to rule out a false positive due to the points you mention...I certainly do not want to add a MORE complex system to monitor the original/simpler system of thermal fuses (which I plan to have). I certainly do not have the answer yet!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Derrick" <scott@tnstaafl.net>

To: <reflector@tvbf.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection

> I wonder about fire detection equipment.
>
> You don't want false positives, that could be as bad or worse than a
> real fire. If I thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the
> speed brake, at cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and shock
> cooling that mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find out
> later that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed off
> field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not good.
>
> I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, MUX boxes
> and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks have never owned
> and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes a major amount of
> time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive and well, now you
> want to add more?
>
> I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but
> exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where people
> died? Would money and time be better spent on really clean and secure
> engine installations?
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> Fred Marconi wrote:
> > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH A
> > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. at THAT
> > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF FIRE AND
> > LAND.
> >
> > FRED
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hiroo Umeno" <humeno@microsoft.com>
> > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM
> > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> >
> >
> >
> >>Pat,
> >>
> >>CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets
> >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine
> >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of most
> >>low-cost CCDs.
> >>
> >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on
> >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same housing
> >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to each
> >>cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I
> >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well.
> >>
> >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. Co-pilot
> >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking forward-down,
> >>overhead duct capturing panel.
> >>
> >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) usually
> >>has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the surplus
> >>electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not particular
> >>about specific device you are looking for.
> >>
> >>Hiroo
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On
> >>Behalf Of Pat Shea
> >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM
> >>To: reflector@tvbf.org
> >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> >>
> >>Hiroo,
> >>
> >>I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the
> >>engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It
> >>looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage
> >>of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit,
> >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to
> >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl during
> >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B
> >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to
> >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof,
> >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount:
> >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look
> >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the
> >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these??
> >>
> >>Pat
> >>
> >>--- Hiroo Umeno <humeno@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I
> >>>have been researching
> >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the
> >>>wingtip (perhaps on
> >>>the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it
> >>>would offer a way to
> >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it
> >>>will also serve as
> >>>"rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a
> >>>feed for your
> >>>in-flight footage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The cameras can be had for less than $100 these
> >>>days, and a small LCD
> >>>monitors can be had for about the same.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Hiroo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>__________________________________
> >>Do you Yahoo!?
> >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> >>http://sbc.yahoo.com
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>To change your email address, visit
> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >>
> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>To change your email address, visit
> >
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-545676779-1058552801=:38594-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 18 20:16:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:16:43 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems Message-ID: <1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b@aol.com> --part1_1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b_alt_boundary" --part1_1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Missed your question on my exhaust. Here's a picture of the system on my V-6. Yes, it is stainless and includes a vortex (tm) cone baffle in the aft end. looks big, because it is. The aft opening is 3" on each side. That should allow the exhaust to expand & cool a little right before the vortex cone. Then I have about 10" before the prop chops it to pieces. I plan on putting on Temp. Tape to monitor the temps against the prop. Kurt Winker --part1_1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,

Missed your question on my exhaust. Here's a picture of the system on= my V-6.
Yes, it is stainless and includes a vortex (tm) cone baffle in the aft end.=20=
looks big, because it is. The aft opening is 3" on each side. That sho= uld allow the exhaust to expand & cool a little right before the vortex=20= cone. Then I have about 10" before the prop chops it to pieces.

I plan on putting on Temp. Tape to monitor the temps against the prop.

Kurt Winker --part1_1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b_alt_boundary-- --part1_1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b_boundary Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="4.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="4.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAAAAAAAD/wAARCAHgAoADASIAAhEBAxEB/9sAQwAQCwwODAoQDg0O EhEQExgoGhgWFhgxIyUdKDozPTw5Mzg3QEhcTkBEV0U3OFBtUVdfYmdoZz5NcXlwZHhcZWdj /9sAQwEREhIYFRgvGhovY0I4QmNjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2Nj Y2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2Nj/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQR BRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RF RkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ip qrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAtREA AgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSExBhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYk NOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElKU1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOE 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I had thought about both the fuel shutoff and heat sensor/alarm a little before, but now you can characterize that as "a lot more!" Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Simon Aegerter Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:33 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection >exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where people died? Scott: I know of four Velocities. Plus two where people were safe. Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 03:11:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:11:51 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection Message-ID: I like that second example, but I have a question? Who, of sane mind, would fly an airplane that you have to dump 8 quartz of oil into? Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of richard@riley.net Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:19 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection I was working from memory. A little online research, and I find these. From CP59, Page 8, April, 1989 A Washington Long-EZ was circling low level over a sparsely inhabited area when the pilot felt/heard a creaking sound and immediately smelled gasoline. There was obviously a major gasoline leak as he picked out a relatively smooth area and executed an emergency landing. The pilot got out and on his way out thought he saw a hole in the fuel gauge area but right then the fuel caught fire and, unfortunately, the entire aircraft was consumed. The pilot was not injured but the cause of the fuel leak/fire is unknown. There is a highly speculative theory that the aircraft was hit by a bullet! This pilot was a Vietnam war helicopter pilot and highly experienced in such events and is sure that is what he felt/heard just before he smelled the gasoline. Not much we can learn here except, perhaps, to refrain from flying low over what could be someone's property - someone who may not want your flying over them and may take action against you. Keep in mind, this is speculative theory, not proven, but a strong possibility. An experienced pilot, well known to RAF and respected by all who know him as a man of integrity. -------------------------------------------- A Los Angeles Long-EZ pilot/builder installed a breather system from his engine to one of his exhaust headers, similar to the system developed, tested and sold by Wes Gardner and similar to one Mike and Sally have had on their Long-EZ for over 5 years now (with excellent results). The only difference was the fact that an anti-backfire valve (one directional check valve) that Wes calls out and that MIke and Sally have installed, was omitted. On top of that, this aircraft was known to have one cylinder pumping oil (turned out to be a seized piston ring). Oil consumption was very high and this pilot had filled it with 8 quarts prior to taxiing out for take off. Just prior to taking off, the tower informed the pilot that smoke was coming from the engine. His rear seat passenger looked back and saw flames coming from the cowlnear the wing root. The tower dispatched a fire truck and the fire was quickly extinguished. The Long-EZ was seriously damaged, all engine compartment wiring was burned and the foam was melted out of the wing root. It will take several months of hard work to fix. What caused this fire? Well, this pilot and Mike, at RAF, don't fully agree. The builder feels that the breather tube welded into the exhaust header cracked, allowing oil onto the outside of the hot exhaust, which caught fire. Mike believes, based on his own experience, that without the anti-backfire valve, the hot exhaust gases went into the breather line, melting or burning it off. Since the engine was burning excessive amounts of oil, this line probably had oil in it and when the rubber hose caught fire, it also ignited the oil which then turned into a hot fire causing lots of damage including melting the rudder cable pulley and bracket. Mike speaks from experience! When he first installed his breather system, he also tried it without the check valve, or an anti-backfire valve. He was lucky, he ran it on the ground and, when the hose melted through, he saw it before any more damage could occur. There was no fire in his case, probably because his engine was not using much oil, but the hose from the crankcase to the tube welded into the exhaust was melted/burned beyond recognition in a matter of minutes! If you are planning on installing a breather system such as Wes Gardner's, be absolutely certain you do it right! He has lots of experience with this, so contact him, better yet, buy his kit and install it exactly per his instructions, and you will have an excellent breather system that does not throw oil all over your cowling. "A Long-EZ on its first flight after installing a newly overhauled engine suffered an in-flight engine fire and was unable to make it back to the runway. The engine quit on approach and the pilot attempted to land in a housing tract. There was not enough room and he rolled into a car, which also burst into flames. He landed under control, thus, in-flight structural failure or control failure are not suspect. Sadly, the pilot was killed by fire. The fire was so intense in the engine/cowling area that the FAA accident investigator was unable to determine what could have started the fire. The fuel pumps, carburetor, etc., were consumed. The airplane had been airborne for only a few minutes. Reportedly, the engine was an 0-320 and he was using auto fuel. We may never know what caused the fire, but it is easy to overlook a loose fitting - we have done it ourselves. A fuel leak, particularly auto fuel, could be ignited by hot exhaust or any number of things. Always try to have at least one other person go over your work, especially engine related work like plumbing or control systems. The more pairs of eyes that look at your engine installation, the better chance that you will catch some overlooked items. This is specifically important if you are developing new, unapproved installations. Never, ever, cowl an engine that has been worked on without a brief engine run to check for leaks. We, here at RAF, have more than once found fairly drastic leaks during the leak-check engine run." At 09:58 AM 7/18/03 -0400, you wrote: >How does the fire happen? > >John > >richard@riley.net wrote: > > > I know of one fire in a canard (long ez) and 3 in conventional planes > > (regular certified stuff.) The fire in the Long EZ was fatal, it burned > > away his control system before he knew what was happening. In the > > certified birds, one in a Malibu burned through the firewall before they > > knew what was going on, killed the CFI and horribly disfigured the > > student. The other two knew they had fires and stopped the engines and > > deadsticked, and lived. > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 03:15:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:15:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D9B.9D645E00 Content-Type: text/plain Me too. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:48 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Me to Mack ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D9B.9D645E00 Content-Type: text/html
Me too.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:48 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion)

Me to
Mack
------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D9B.9D645E00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 02:50:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:50:16 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> <3F178715.6010901@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <00a601c34d98$1dd3e6a0$5126fea9@greg> Scott et al., Stats, damn lies and statistics! Without knowing the number of Lancairs flying compared to Velocitys, there is absolutely no way you can draw any conclusions on relative safety between the two. I had one friend tell me that L's sell to V's in a ratio 18:1 but I guess the factory would have more of an accurate idea of such relativities. Even if 10:1 were right, it would make the V safety record look pretty sick based on the stats for total accidents provided below (admittedly the ratio of fatals to accidents look better but how significant is this if we have a higher % of total flying as fatals??). ....and what about flying hours? This could make a huge difference to the result if one group flies significantly more than the other. Nah, .....if I can share a few things my late father used to say that seem to fit here; - "relativities are odious", &, "pointing out the guilt of others does nothing to prove one's own innocence". Food for deeper thought! Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's > A quik and very unscientific search of the NTSB records shows > > From 95 to this year > > Lancairs 47 accidents , 18 were fatal > > Velocitys 24 accidents, 6 were fatal > > I don't have any idea how many Lancairs are flying or Velocitys. > > I don't know why 1 out of 2.5 accidents in Lancairs are fatal while > Velocity's are 1 out of 4? > > I do think the Velocity is safer than most. > > Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 03:00:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:00:58 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: Message-ID: <00b501c34d99$9c24d360$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C34DED.6A92CF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK then - "me too!" Chuck is quite right....with all due respect, can we not have such = asinine responses? =20 What the heck was the "me too" related to that was so important that we = need to share it with the world? =20 Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chuck Jensen=20 To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'=20 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:15 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Me too. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:48 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Me to Mack=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C34DED.6A92CF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK then - "me too!"

Chuck is = quite right....with all due=20 respect, can we not have such asinine responses? =

What the heck was the "me too" = related to=20 that was so important that we need to share it with = the world?

Greg in Sydney.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chuck=20 Jensen
To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'

Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 = 12:15=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire = warning (was=20 explosion)

Me=20 too.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com
Sent:= =20 Friday, July 18, 2003 7:48 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject:<= /B>=20 Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was = explosion)

Me to
Mack=20
------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C34DED.6A92CF60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 03:23:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Lanza) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:23:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: 173RG - IO-540 COMBO In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-2-817316866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Hi Tom, You might want to check with the factory to get the facts about Dennis = =20 Wood's 173RG/IO540. Dennis flew his Velocity home to England (left the U.S. on July 4th, =20 hmmm), any way he used an MT 4 bladed CS prop. I don't think that you would need a large home =20= equity loan to afford one either. If you & the wife get second jobs, a reasonable equity load =20= should suffice... I'll be in the Velocity camp at Oshkosh, stop by & say hello. Regards, Wayne Lanza Composite Design, Inc. ________________________________________________________________________=20= _ On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 06:58 PM, Tom Martino wrote: > Please, please, please ... I need information.=A0I know there are a = few =20 > weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG.=A0And I = know =20 > there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run into =20 > this yet? > > =A0 > > I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT =20 > Prop.=A0Ouch!=A0I can=92t use it.=A0The prop will strike at a normal =20= > rotation.=A0So I did some measuring ... and unless I=92m crazy ... it =20= > looks like I need 30=94 blades to be safe!=A0That=92s only a 60=94 = prop! > > =A0 > > Can that be so?=A0I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation.=A0And = my =20 > plane in standard in every way (except for the engine). > > =A0 > > The factory told me I could expect a problem with clearance ... but =20= > they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo and a =20= > four-blade prop. =A0Was it longer than 60=94?=A0Was the point of = rotation =20 > changed by moving the gear? (that would be too late for me). > > =A0 > > What is the alternative? > > =A0 > > My prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be able to come up =20= > with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower configuration. =A0Of= =20 > course, I would only have to get a large home equity loan! > > =A0 > > HELP!!!!!!!! > > =A0 > > =A0 > > =A0 > --Apple-Mail-2-817316866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Hi Tom, You might want to check with the factory to get the facts about Dennis Wood's 173RG/IO540. Dennis flew his Velocity home to England (left the U.S. on July 4th, hmmm), any way he used an MT 4 bladed CS prop. I don't think that you would need a large home equity loan to afford one either. If you & the wife get second jobs, a reasonable equity load should suffice... I'll be in the Velocity camp at Oshkosh, stop by & say hello. Regards, Wayne Lanza Composite Design, Inc. = _________________________________________________________________________ On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 06:58 PM, Tom Martino wrote: ArialPlease, please, please ... I need information.=A0I know there are a few weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG.=A0And I know there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run into this = yet? Arial=A0 ArialI did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop.=A0Ouch!=A0I can=92t use it.=A0The = prop will strike at a normal rotation.=A0So I did some measuring ... and unless I=92m crazy ... it looks like I need 30=94 blades to be safe!=A0That=92s only a 60=94 prop! Arial=A0 ArialCan that be so?=A0I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation.=A0And my plane in standard in every way (except for the engine). Arial=A0 ArialThe factory told me I could expect a problem with clearance ... but they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo and a four-blade prop. =A0Was it longer than 60=94?=A0Was the point of rotation changed by moving the = gear? (that would be too late for me). Arial=A0 ArialWhat is the = alternative? Arial=A0 ArialMy prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be able to come up with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower configuration. =A0Of course, I would only have to get a large home equity loan! Arial=A0 = ArialHELP!!!!!!!! Arial=A0 Times New Roman=A0 Times New Roman=A0 = --Apple-Mail-2-817316866-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 05:22:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:22:53 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> <3F178715.6010901@tnstaafl.net> <00a601c34d98$1dd3e6a0$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <3F18C79E.56598298@comcast.net> Greg, > Stats, damn lies and statistics! > > Without knowing the number of Lancairs flying compared to Velocitys, > there is absolutely no way you can draw any conclusions on relative > safety between the two. > ....and what about flying hours? This could make a huge difference > to the result if one group flies significantly more than the other. Very well put, Greg. I would think the only true comparison would be accidents per 1000 flying hours. However even this does not take into account the experience level of the two pilot groups. But one thing we can conclude from these stats: Both Vs and Ls have accidents. The best we can do is try to improve the V score. Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 05:23:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:23:09 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Message-ID: <6b.1597d847.2c4a21ad@aol.com> --part1_6b.1597d847.2c4a21ad_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That is the fuel shut off at sump fuel tank. Me to. Mack --part1_6b.1597d847.2c4a21ad_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is the fuel shut off at sum= p fuel tank.
Me to.
Mack --part1_6b.1597d847.2c4a21ad_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 05:35:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:35:52 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:The Me-2 Fuel Shut Off Valve References: <6b.1597d847.2c4a21ad@aol.com> Message-ID: <016c01c34daf$3cc0f500$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0169_01C34E03.0DEE5F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK Mack, Perhaps changing the subject line might help!=20 ...at the very least you have now got me fitting a fuel shut off valve = to my sump Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MMurp16900@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 2:23 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) That is the fuel shut off at sump fuel tank. Me to. Mack=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0169_01C34E03.0DEE5F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK Mack,

Perhaps changing the subject = line might=20 help!

...at the very least you have = now got me=20 fitting a fuel shut off valve to my sump

Greg in Sydney.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MMurp16900@aol.com
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 = 2:23=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire = warning (was=20 explosion)

That is the fuel shut = off at sump=20 fuel tank.
Me to.
Mack = ------=_NextPart_000_0169_01C34E03.0DEE5F20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 06:40:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:40:53 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:The Me-2 Fuel Shut Off Valve Message-ID: --part1_c1.3449ddc5.2c4a33e5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good on ya Mate I sure miss my long lay overs in your wonderful country. Mack Murphree Former Flying Tiger B747 driver --part1_c1.3449ddc5.2c4a33e5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good on ya Mate
I sure miss my long lay overs in your wonderful country.
Mack Murphree
Former Flying Tiger B747 driver
--part1_c1.3449ddc5.2c4a33e5_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 06:42:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems In-Reply-To: <1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030719054244.206.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Kurt Wow, quite an impressive set-up. That's homebuilding at its best! Good luck, Pat --- NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote: > Mark, > > Missed your question on my exhaust. Here's a > picture of the system on my V-6. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 08:46:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:46:02 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:NEW MT 3-Blade PROP FOR SALE Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34DC9.CD8744CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Specs: MTV-9-B/LD 178-102 13.5 inch bulkhead and spinner =20 I bought this new prop with my project. I can't use it. I am forced to buy a four blade MT. =20 The prop sells for around $11,000 new (not including spinner). I will consider any serious offers. =20 The prop is new and perfect and comes with bolts, bulk head and spinner. =20 I can use my governor, so I am keeping it. =20 Email me privately: tmartino@troubleshooter.com=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34DC9.CD8744CA Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Specs: = MTV-9-B/LD 178-102

        = ;    13.5 inch bulkhead and spinner

I bought this new prop with my project. I can’t use it. I am forced to buy a four = blade = MT.

The prop sells for around $11,000 new (not including spinner). I will consider = any serious offers.

The prop is new and perfect and comes with bolts, = bulk head and spinner.

I can use my governor, so I am keeping = it.

Email me privately: tmartino@troubleshooter.com

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34DC9.CD8744CA-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 13:18:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:18:01 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34DC5.E3563680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use a 66 inch diameter 3-blade Performance prop on our 173RG and have never had a prop come close to hitting. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:58 PM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! Please, please, please ... I need information. I know there are a few weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And I know there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run into this yet? I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop. Ouch! I can't use it. The prop will strike at a normal rotation. So I did some measuring ... and unless I'm crazy ... it looks like I need 30" blades to be safe! That's only a 60" prop! Can that be so? I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation. And my plane in standard in every way (except for the engine). The factory told me I could expect a problem with clearance ... but they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo and a four-blade prop. Was it longer than 60"? Was the point of rotation changed by moving the gear? (that would be too late for me). What is the alternative? My prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be able to come up with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower configuration. Of course, I would only have to get a large home equity loan! HELP!!!!!!!! ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34DC5.E3563680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We use=20 a 66 inch diameter 3-blade Performance prop on our 173RG and have never = had a=20 prop come close to hitting.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:58 PM
To:=20 reflector@www.tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 = COMBO ...=20 OH NO!

Please, please, please = ... I need=20 information. I know = there are a=20 few weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And I know there are some = special=20 challenges ... but have any of you run into this=20 yet?

I did some rotation = tests with my=20 brand new three-blade MT Prop. = Ouch! I = can’t use it. The prop will strike at a = normal=20 rotation. So I did some = measuring=20 ... and unless I’m crazy ... it looks like I need 30” = blades to be safe! That’s only a = 60”=20 prop!

Can that be so? I believe I did not = exaggerate the=20 rotation. And my plane = in=20 standard in every way (except for the = engine).

The factory told me I = could expect=20 a problem with clearance ... but they said they had a plane there that = flew=20 away with my combo and a four-blade prop. Was it longer than = 60”? Was the point of rotation = changed by=20 moving the gear? (that would be too late for = me).

What is the=20 alternative?

My prop show (an MT = Dealer) says=20 the factory may be able to come up with a custom five-blade prop for = my 325=20 horsepower configuration. Of=20 course, I would only have to get a large home equity=20 loan!

HELP!!!!!!!!

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34DC5.E3563680-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 13:37:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:37:42 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Oil Pressure Sensor References: <3F15CA75.24FAB6CC@dixie-net.com> <01d801c34bef$bd4b4700$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F193B95.A3DCDCDC@dixie-net.com> Well, I found the problem. It was the ground. When I installed a new ground, the fuel pressure now reads 5-6 psig where it should be. Interestingly, with the engine off and the electric pump on the pressure was and still is 6-7 psig. My oil pressure was also high, sometimes at 99 psig which is the RMI Monitor limit and what it reads with the sensor disconnected. With a new ground, the pressure now reads 70-80 psig. John From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 14:28:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:28:07 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) References: <00b501c34d99$9c24d360$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <002d01c34df9$975a9f80$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34DD8.0FE44A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to let folks know that more than a few people have added a fuel = shut off valve which was NOT part of the original Velocity construction = manuals. It is easy to install, doesn't cost much, and makes maintenance a whole = lot easier - and also helps turn the fuel off when your butt is a blow = torch! Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Poole=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) OK then - "me too!" Chuck is quite right....with all due respect, can we not have such = asinine responses? =20 What the heck was the "me too" related to that was so important that = we need to share it with the world? Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chuck Jensen=20 To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'=20 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:15 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Me too. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:48 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was explosion) Me to Mack=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34DD8.0FE44A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to let folks know that more than a few = people have=20 added a fuel shut off valve which was NOT part of the original Velocity=20 construction manuals.

It is easy to install, doesn't cost much, and makes=20 maintenance a whole lot easier - and also helps turn the fuel off = when your=20 butt is a blow torch!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg = Poole=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 = 10:00=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: fire = warning (was=20 explosion)

OK then - "me = too!"

Chuck is = quite right....with all due=20 respect, can we not have such asinine responses? =

What the heck was the "me too" = related to=20 that was so important that we need to share it with=20 the world?

Greg in Sydney.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chuck=20 Jensen
To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'

Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 = 12:15=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: fire = warning=20 (was explosion)

Me=20 too.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com
Sent:= =20 Friday, July 18, 2003 7:48 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject:<= /B>=20 Re: REFLECTOR: fire warning (was = explosion)

Me to
Mack=20
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34DD8.0FE44A40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 15:24:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:24:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after flight: As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates 30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph @1000 rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's right back in the dumps. At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth ramp operations (especially when hot). Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be unrelated to the observed symptoms. Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on a 540? 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been this way for a long time with no further degradation/change) 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic of deterioration of the positive displacement type fuel pump? 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, I thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the Reflectorites. Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas are sold. chuck N27GV From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 15:07:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:07:25 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --============_-1153498842==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Tom, 1.How many degrees have you tilted the engine? Ask the factory what's the maximum upward tilt (using more washers or spacers on both the middle and bottom engine mounts). One degree can make a big difference back at the end of the prop extension. 2. Switch to fixed gear. I know you can't do that, but it does give a few inches extra clearance with the big "tundra" size tires. Good luck. Craig Catto can build any prop you need, so I'd stay in close contact with him. All the best, Dennis Martin >Please, please, please ... I need information. I know there are a >few weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And >I know there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run >into this yet? > > > >I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop. >Ouch! I can't use it. The prop will strike at a normal rotation. >So I did some measuring ... and unless I'm crazy ... it looks like I >need 30" blades to be safe! That's only a 60" prop! > > > >Can that be so? I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation. And >my plane in standard in every way (except for the engine). > > > >The factory told me I could expect a problem with clearance ... but >they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo and a >four-blade prop. Was it longer than 60"? Was the point of rotation >changed by moving the gear? (that would be too late for me). > > > >What is the alternative? > > > >My prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be able to come up >with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower configuration. > Of course, I would only have to get a large home equity loan! > > > >HELP!!!!!!!! > > > > > > > > --============_-1153498842==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO!
Tom,

1.How many degrees have you tilted the engine?   Ask the factory what's the maximum upward tilt (using more washers or spacers on both the middle and bottom engine mounts). One degree can make a big difference back at the end of the prop extension.

2. Switch to fixed gear. I know you can't do that, but it does give a few inches extra clearance with the big "tundra" size tires.

Good luck. Craig Catto can build any prop you need, so I'd stay in close contact with him.

All the best,

Dennis Martin

Please, please, please ... I need information. I know there are a few weirdoes like me who chose to put the IO-540 on the 173RG. And I know there are some special challenges ... but have any of you run into this yet?

I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop. Ouch! I can't use it. The prop will strike at a normal rotation. So I did some measuring ... and unless I'm crazy ... it looks like I need 30" blades to be safe! That's only a 60" prop!

Can that be so? I believe I did not exaggerate the rotation. And my plane in standard in every way (except for the engine).

The factory told me I could expect a problem with clearance ... but they said they had a plane there that flew away with my combo and a four-blade prop. Was it longer than 60"? Was the point of rotation changed by moving the gear? (that would be too late for me).

What is the alternative?

My prop show (an MT Dealer) says the factory may be able to come up with a custom five-blade prop for my 325 horsepower configuration. Of course, I would only have to get a large home equity loan!

HELP!!!!!!!!

--============_-1153498842==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 15:29:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:29:40 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider - Lycoming Fuel Injection References: Message-ID: <000f01c34e02$30c31be0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I think the numbers you are giving for fuel pressure with and without the boost pump on are correct for a Lycoming fuel injected engine. That is similar to my IO360. I'm guessing that the slight increase in pressure is increasing the flow just enough to prevent vaporizing the fuel and the rough idle. Mine idles a bit rough - but not as badly as yours after landing. My cold idle is set around 750 rpms - hot idle is just a bit less and it stumbles and misses. Increasing the rpm to 900 or so improves the roughness. (the 6 psi fuel pressure is more normal for a carbureted engine that has a engine driven fuel pump) I think this is pretty normal for a Lycoming fuel injected engine. I hear fuel injected planes on the taxiway at our airport doing the same thing. For a while Velocity suggested relocating the fuel spider to below the engine to alleviate this problem, but no longer. Make sure all of your lines are fire sleeved if they haven't been. Some suggest fire sleeving the small 1/8" lines going to the injectors, but I didn't. That might help to keep the fuel lines cool. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:24 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all | they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of | investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, | particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough | at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after | flight: | | As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates | 30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph @1000 | rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel | flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays | running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth | operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's right | back in the dumps. | | At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no | difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. | | One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? | Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm | with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. | | The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too | lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the | mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth ramp | operations (especially when hot). | | Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be | unrelated to the observed symptoms. | | Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post | talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I | have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? | 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on | a 540? | 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been | this way for a long time with no further | degradation/change) | 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic | of deterioration of the positive displacement type | fuel pump? | 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? | | I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't | understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow | should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. | | By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good | mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, I | thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the Reflectorites. | Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas | are sold. | | chuck | N27GV | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 15:42:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:42:26 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So this only happens after a flight? When the engine is cool, things behave properly? 30PSI? I'm assuming injected? Things I would look for: 1) possible partial vapor lock. 2) Intake manifold air leak. Snug up all those bolts. 3) Injector air shroud obstructions. 4) Check all hoses to the fuel servo for cracks/leaks. Does turning off either magneto make a characteristic change? Maybe the EI is doing something strange temperature-wise. Take out your spark plugs and read them. That'll tell you if you are running too lean/rich or show which cylinder is the culprit, if it is a single cylinder. What do your per-cylinder EGT's show when this is happening? Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 15:54:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:54:08 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider References: Message-ID: <3F195B90.2090701@tnstaafl.net> Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low idle. First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures you are referring to were for a Franklin. The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines when the cylinders are hot. Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all > they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of > investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, > particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough > at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after > flight: > > As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates > 30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph @1000 > rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel > flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays > running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth > operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's right > back in the dumps. > > At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no > difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. > > One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? > Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm > with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. > > The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too > lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the > mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth ramp > operations (especially when hot). > > Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be > unrelated to the observed symptoms. > > Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post > talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I > have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? > 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on > a 540? > 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been > this way for a long time with no further > degradation/change) > 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic > of deterioration of the positive displacement type > fuel pump? > 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? > > I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't > understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow > should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. > > By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good > mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, I > thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the Reflectorites. > Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas > are sold. > > chuck > N27GV > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 17:12:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:12:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: When the engine is cool at start up, it is certainly less pronounced. Ronnies comments that his 360 runs somewhat similar is comforting but it still doesn't seem right. I don't understand why there should be such a sharp drop-off in engine operation at 1000 rpm when the booster is secured. Shouldn't the engine run the same on the ramp whether the booster pump is on or not? Isn't the booster pump just insurance during TO/LD in case of main pump failure and not required for normal ramp operations? I look at the list below and: 1) seems like a credible culprit (hot engine and all) but the likelihood that the slight amount of additional pressure from the booster would be just the amount needed to overcome the vapor lock is possible, but small? In this line of thought, is it possible to have a chronic continuous partial vapor lock would always behave the same...cause rpm drop, rough ops but never completely stops the engine? Does anyone know the minimum fuel pressure values for injected 540 at approx. 1000 rpm? I have seen 17. Is that too low? 2) possible if it always ran rough but wouldn't seem to be related changes in booster pump status. 3) same as 2)? 4) same as 2), i.e. unrelated to changes from booster pump status? I have not tried mag/EI manipulations nor observed EGT in relation to this phenomena, though I will do so. I'll check to see if the last mechanic looked at the plugs. However, if it always ran rough, the plug condition may be more enlightening. Except for this one condition, the engine starts great and runs very smooth. Unrelated to the Rough Rider problem, I took a couple sets of EGT/CHT readings per GAMI's (http://www.gami.com/frames.htm) over a range of fuel flow settings during cruise. I thought the results were kind of interesting but am looking forward to GAMI's thoughts/interpretation. This is a wild, blind guess, but I predict they will recommend a set of their calibrated injectors to smooth engine ops in the LOP region by narrowing the variation in peak temp range between cylinders. I'll post a link to my results and their interpretation when I hear from GAMI. Chuck N27GV XL/RG -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brian Michalk Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:42 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider So this only happens after a flight? When the engine is cool, things behave properly? 30PSI? I'm assuming injected? Things I would look for: 1) possible partial vapor lock. 2) Intake manifold air leak. Snug up all those bolts. 3) Injector air shroud obstructions. 4) Check all hoses to the fuel servo for cracks/leaks. Does turning off either magneto make a characteristic change? Maybe the EI is doing something strange temperature-wise. Take out your spark plugs and read them. That'll tell you if you are running too lean/rich or show which cylinder is the culprit, if it is a single cylinder. What do your per-cylinder EGT's show when this is happening? Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 16:46:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:46:44 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: <24.42bc36e4.2c4ac1e4@aol.com> --part1_24.42bc36e4.2c4ac1e4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott and Chuck My IO540 acts the same way after landing on a hot day. I think its vapor lock. Hopefully we are all using the manifold drain check valve. It's possible that the check valve is sticking leaking manifold pressure. Mack --part1_24.42bc36e4.2c4ac1e4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott and Chuck
My IO540 acts the same way after landing on a hot day. I think its vapor loc= k.
Hopefully we are all using the manifold drain check valve. It's possi= ble that the check valve is sticking leaking manifold pressure.
Mack
--part1_24.42bc36e4.2c4ac1e4_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 17:26:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:26:25 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm after flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same salutory effect after pretty much any flight. Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing it down the runway on landing. My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, should not be dependent on the booster pump. Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I still have a tiny bit of residual doubt. Chuck XL/RG -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low idle. First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures you are referring to were for a Franklin. The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines when the cylinders are hot. Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all > they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of > investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, > particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough > at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after > flight: > > As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates > 30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph @1000 > rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel > flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays > running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth > operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's right > back in the dumps. > > At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no > difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. > > One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? > Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm > with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. > > The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too > lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the > mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth ramp > operations (especially when hot). > > Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be > unrelated to the observed symptoms. > > Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post > talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I > have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? > 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on > a 540? > 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been > this way for a long time with no further > degradation/change) > 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic > of deterioration of the positive displacement type > fuel pump? > 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? > > I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't > understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow > should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. > > By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good > mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, I > thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the Reflectorites. > Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas > are sold. > > chuck > N27GV > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 16:57:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:57:16 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: <187.1cf0cf49.2c4ac45c@aol.com> --part1_187.1cf0cf49.2c4ac45c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott Did you read the new A.D.2003-14-03 about leaking rotary fuel pump. I have not had a chance to resurch this yet. Mack Velocity X.L. IO540 KIE5 --part1_187.1cf0cf49.2c4ac45c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott
Did you read the new A.D.2003-14-03 about leaking rotary fuel pump. I have n= ot had a chance to resurch this yet.
Mack Velocity X.L. IO540 KIE5
--part1_187.1cf0cf49.2c4ac45c_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 17:04:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:04:09 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider References: Message-ID: <3F196BF9.3070207@tnstaafl.net> Chuck Jensen wrote: > still doesn't seem right. I don't understand why there should be such a > sharp drop-off in engine operation at 1000 rpm when the booster is secured. > Shouldn't the engine run the same on the ramp whether the booster pump is on > or not? Isn't the booster pump just insurance during TO/LD in case of main > pump failure and not required for normal ramp operations? At idle the pump pressure will effect your fuel flow a lot more than at full throttle. Or I should say the engine will notice the difference a lot more. Its the increased fuel flow that is cooling the injector lines and reducing or eliminating the fuel vaporization. > 1) seems like a credible culprit (hot engine and all) but the likelihood > that the slight amount of additional pressure from the booster would be just > the amount needed to overcome the vapor lock is possible, but small? Try this. Hot engine at idle. Turn on boost pump, note increased fuel flow and engine performance(smoothness), Turn off boost pump, increase throttle so your fuel flow is the same as it was with the boost pump on, note engine performance. Is it the same as it was with boost pump on and throttle set at low idle? > this line of thought, is it possible to have a chronic continuous partial > vapor lock would always behave the same...cause rpm drop, rough ops but > never completely stops the engine? at idle yes, the first old automotive injection systems had this problem too. Since we almost always run our aircraft engines at full throttle or near enough its just not a problem really. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 17:30:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:30:46 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider References: <187.1cf0cf49.2c4ac45c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F197236.7010809@tnstaafl.net> I perused it. My engine parts manual states I have a LW-15473(not applicable) which I will verify and log in the manual for N/A status for the AD. Not many variants of IO360's have effected fuel pumps. I think some of the IO540's do though, too bad. I know AD's are for our benefit but I sure hate it when one comes home to me! Do you know if your fuel pump is effected by the AD? Its a 50 hour repeating inspection until the pump is replaced with a type "M". I had a couple of those 50's on my old Bonanza. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGAD.NSF/0/ED6B0FC0E144828286256D5F0056AB94?OpenDocument Scott MMurp16900@aol.com wrote: > Hi Scott > Did you read the new A.D.2003-14-03 about leaking rotary fuel pump. I > have not had a chance to resurch this yet. > Mack Velocity X.L. IO540 KIE5 From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 22:07:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:07:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using updraft or downdraft configuration? Michael Pollock -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm after flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same salutory effect after pretty much any flight. Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing it down the runway on landing. My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, should not be dependent on the booster pump. Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I still have a tiny bit of residual doubt. Chuck XL/RG -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low idle. First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures you are referring to were for a Franklin. The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines when the cylinders are hot. Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all > they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of > investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, > particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough > at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after > flight: > > As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates > 30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph @1000 > rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel > flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays > running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth > operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's right > back in the dumps. > > At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no > difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. > > One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? > Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm > with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. > > The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too > lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the > mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth ramp > operations (especially when hot). > > Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be > unrelated to the observed symptoms. > > Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post > talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I > have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? > 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on > a 540? > 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been > this way for a long time with no further > degradation/change) > 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic > of deterioration of the positive displacement type > fuel pump? > 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? > > I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't > understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow > should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. > > By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good > mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, I > thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the Reflectorites. > Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas > are sold. > > chuck > N27GV > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 19 23:21:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:21:59 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! Message-ID: <19d.18141671.2c4b1e87@aol.com> --part1_19d.18141671.2c4b1e87_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en >>I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop.=C2=A0 Ouc= h!=C2=A0 I=20 can=E2=80=99t use it.=C2=A0 The prop will strike at a normal rotation.=C2= =A0 So I did some=20 measuring ... and unless I=E2=80=99m crazy ... it looks like I need 30=E2= =80=9D blades to be=20 safe!=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s only a 60=E2=80=9D prop! << Hey Guy,=20 How about some hard numbers? 1) What is your clearance from prop tip to ground with one blade straight=20 down and the plane sitting "level" on it's gear?=20 2) When you lift the nose, how many inches off the ground is your nose wheel= =20 when your prop touches the shop floor? I ask these questions because you kept using the term "normal rotation". I d= o=20 not know how much Velo experience you have but "normal rotation" for every=20 other plane in the universe and "normal rotation" for a Velocity are totally= =20 different animals. :-) For example, on my XL RG the answer to question one was 6 inches and questio= n=20 2 was 18 inches. That was plenty. Even less would be fine. Would like to=20 hear your numbers DM Rob PS Bear in mind that the with the RG the nose gear spring does compress and=20 you will gain another 2 inches or so of ground clearance once you have weigh= t=20 in the front seat. =20 --part1_19d.18141671.2c4b1e87_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en >>I did some rotation tests with my brand new th= ree-blade MT Prop.=C2=A0 Ouch!=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t use it.=C2=A0 The prop=20= will strike at a normal rotation.=C2=A0 So I did some measuring ... and unle= ss I=E2=80=99m crazy ... it looks like I need 30=E2=80=9D blades to be safe!= =C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s only a 60=E2=80=9D prop!
<<

Hey Guy,

How about some hard numbers?

1) What is your clearance from prop tip to ground with one blade straight do= wn and the plane sitting "level" on it's gear?

2) When you lift the nose, how many inches off the ground is your nose wheel= when your prop touches the shop floor?

I ask these questions because you kept using the term "normal rotation". I d= o not know how much Velo experience you have but "normal rotation" for every= other plane in the universe and "normal rotation" for a Velocity are totall= y different animals. :-)

For example, on my XL RG the answer to question one was 6 inches and questio= n 2 was 18 inches. That was plenty. Even less would be fine. Would lik= e to hear your numbers

DM Rob

PS Bear in mind that the with the RG the nose gear spring does compress and=20= you will gain another 2 inches or so of ground clearance once you have weigh= t in the front seat.
=20 --part1_19d.18141671.2c4b1e87_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 01:24:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:24:43 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34E55.5141C031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All good info. THX =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: RJohn15183@aol.com [mailto:RJohn15183@aol.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 4:22 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! =20 >>I did some rotation tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop. Ouch! I can't use it. The prop will strike at a normal rotation. So I did some measuring ... and unless I'm crazy ... it looks like I need 30" blades to be safe! That's only a 60" prop! << Hey Guy,=20 How about some hard numbers? 1) What is your clearance from prop tip to ground with one blade straight down and the plane sitting "level" on it's gear?=20 2) When you lift the nose, how many inches off the ground is your nose wheel when your prop touches the shop floor? I ask these questions because you kept using the term "normal rotation". I do not know how much Velo experience you have but "normal rotation" for every other plane in the universe and "normal rotation" for a Velocity are totally different animals. :-) For example, on my XL RG the answer to question one was 6 inches and question 2 was 18 inches. That was plenty. Even less would be fine. Would like to hear your numbers DM Rob PS Bear in mind that the with the RG the nose gear spring does compress and you will gain another 2 inches or so of ground clearance once you have weight in the front seat. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34E55.5141C031 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All good = info. = THX

-----Original = Message-----
From: RJohn15183@aol.com [mailto:RJohn15183@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, = 2003 4:22 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO!

>>I did some rotation = tests with my brand new three-blade MT Prop. Ouch! I can’t = use it. The prop will strike at a normal rotation. So I did some measuring = ... and unless I’m crazy ... it looks like I need 30” blades to = be safe! That’s only a 60” prop!
<<

Hey Guy,

How about some hard numbers?

1) What is your clearance from prop tip to ground with one blade = straight down and the plane sitting "level" on it's gear?

2) When you lift the nose, how many inches off the ground is your nose = wheel when your prop touches the shop floor?

I ask these questions because you kept using the term "normal rotation". I do not know how much Velo experience you have but "normal rotation" for every other plane in the universe and "normal rotation" for a Velocity are totally different = animals. :-)

For example, on my XL RG the answer to question one was 6 inches and = question 2 was 18 inches. That was plenty. Even less would be fine. Would = like to hear your numbers

DM Rob

PS Bear in mind that the with the RG the nose gear spring does compress = and you will gain another 2 inches or so of ground clearance once you have = weight in the front seat.

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34E55.5141C031-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 02:22:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (CBarber) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:22:12 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Message-ID: As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage (which is not my preference). Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love them on their Velocity's, some don't. 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be deceiving. 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount seems clearly the best. 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better choice. Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may be missing and/or other thoughts. All the best, Chris www.LoneStarVelocity.com Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 03:04:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:04:48 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider References: Message-ID: <3F19F8C0.8010908@tnstaafl.net> Spider is on top and I'm using updraft cooling. I thought about putting a piece of insulation in the bottom side of the spider to keep it cooler. Think it would help? Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using > updraft or downdraft configuration? > > Michael Pollock > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider > > > Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the > injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm after > flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. > > I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty > consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same > salutory effect after pretty much any flight. > > Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have > enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing it > down the runway on landing. > > My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple > mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, should > not be dependent on the booster pump. > > Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I still > have a tiny bit of residual doubt. > > Chuck XL/RG > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider > > > Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. > > I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is > very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the > same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless > I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the > electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal > 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! > Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. > > This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel > vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low idle. > > First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no > problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. > > Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures > you are referring to were for a Franklin. > > The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so > but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines > when the cylinders are hot. > > Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! > > Scott > > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > >>I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all >>they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of >>investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, >>particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough >>at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after >>flight: >> >>As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates >>30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph > > @1000 > >>rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel >>flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays >>running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth >>operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's > > right > >>back in the dumps. >> >>At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no >>difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. >> >>One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? >>Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm >>with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. >> >>The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too >>lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the >>mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth > > ramp > >>operations (especially when hot). >> >>Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be >>unrelated to the observed symptoms. >> >>Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post >>talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I >>have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? >> 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on >>a 540? >> 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been >>this way for a long time with no further >>degradation/change) >> 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic >>of deterioration of the positive displacement type >>fuel pump? >> 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? >> >>I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't >>understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow >>should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. >> >>By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good >>mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, > > I > >>thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the > > Reflectorites. > >>Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas >>are sold. >> >>chuck >>N27GV >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 03:07:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:07:05 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA References: Message-ID: <004801c34e63$9e5b0580$b2604ed8@mshome.net> My rear seat is a bench seat on a 173 FG and I plan to move it a little higher at the front and forward and I will have about 8 inches under the rear seat to accommodate my wide low radiator. This will move the cg forward a mite and reduce the ammount of pregnant guppy belly profile. It still will use a scoop though but should look more like a p51 than a torpedo with a tumor. Present configuration has lots of drag behind the tumor. See the next CONTACT magazine. I will also be able to use a rear flap ala P51 to reduce drag . I should have lots of room under the engine for my water/ oil heat exchangers. They are much more effective than the various air/oil radiators I tried. I have a couple of pix of what not to do. I could send to you directly. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "CBarber" To: "Reflector@Tvbf.Org" Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:22 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA > As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With > the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size > radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel > NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of > cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to > the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with > a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set > up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage > (which is not my preference). > > Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate > the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a > bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: > > 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the > basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love > them on their Velocity's, some don't. > > 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, hole > from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would > reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this reinforcement > be enough? Thoughts? > > 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the NACA > scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the sump > and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create a > solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect the > gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to indicate > this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough to > accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be deceiving. > > 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed my > two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use for > them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as accessories > (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off closing > them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed be > potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the flow > from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine and > mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this entire > question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just under > the engine mount seems clearly the best. > > 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of the > fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from Velocity, > Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA scoop, > but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little difference. > Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are the > scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better choice. > > Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may be > missing and/or other thoughts. > > All the best, > > Chris > www.LoneStarVelocity.com > > > Christopher Barber > Attorney and Counselor at Law > 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E > Suite 103 > Houston, Texas 77089-4755 > 281-464-LAWS (5297) > > "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" > > CBarber@TexasAttorney.net > www.TexasAttorney.net > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 03:21:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:21:57 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Innie or Outie?? References: Message-ID: <3F19FCC5.1000809@tnstaafl.net> My new exhaust should arrive soon from Custom. a 4-into-4 2 pipes exiting through the lower cowl on each side straight back. I need to change how the exhaust exits the cowl completely from a single center exit to two exits on each side. I've seen pictures of where folks molded fiberglass tubes around the stacks, I call it an Outie. A protuberance that sticks out from the fuselage. These look nice and streamlined and help keep the exhaust stains off the cowling, but disturb the airflow at a critical place. I'm contemplating an Innie. Keep the cowl lines undisturbed for the least disturbance of air flow through the prop. Make long indentations from where the tube meets the cowling back towards the rear of the plane, the indentation gets less deep as you get further back for the exhaust to flow into the surrounding air flow. The exhaust tubes would be cut off so as to not stick out above the line of the cowling. I'm probably not explaining this very well. Some of the W.W.II fighters had these indentations where the exhaust stacks came out of the forward cowl. Do you think it would be worth it? Any reasons not to do it this way? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 03:33:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:33:26 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris, Velocity has an external belly mounted NACA that they supply with the XL kits, I have one, and I will be using it for the radiator on my XLRG, it mounts externally to the belly, and forms the inlet by raising the surrounding area instead of lowering the skin, but the skin naturally diverts from the air stream there anyway, so I suppose it works OK,, I will have a radiator in the same place that you will, so I am going to install the belly scoop so I don't have to route all of that air from the top. and use the top 2 scoops for other cooling needs. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of CBarber Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 7:22 PM To: Reflector@Tvbf.Org Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage (which is not my preference). Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love them on their Velocity's, some don't. 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be deceiving. 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount seems clearly the best. 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better choice. Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may be missing and/or other thoughts. All the best, Chris www.LoneStarVelocity.com Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 03:24:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (William C. Cox) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:24:13 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:22:12 CDT." Message-ID: <200307200224.h6K2ODB20790@thuvia.qswtools.com> Chris asks: > As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. > With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position > a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Yep. This is where my radiators are as well. > Unlike the dual NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage > and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should > only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate > cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the > bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I > saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage> (which is not my > preference). At Scott Lower's (formerly of Hangar 18) suggestion, we did almost exactly this. We put a pair of NACAs on the belly, and I've got a dual oil-cooler rig to catch the air from them to cool my Subaru 2.2 liter four-banger. > Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity? I would > appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or > reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need > to address include: > 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the > basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to > love them on their Velocity's, some don't. I believe they'll work better on the bottom of the plane than on the top - more high-pressure air there. The only liability that I see is the risk of little stones banging up the radiators. Actually my radiators are two oil coolers from Earl's in Long Beach, CA. There's about a three-inch space between them, which I have filled with a fiberglass piece to catch combustion air and feed it through a 3-inch hose to the throttle body. So the scoop under the left wing goes away. > 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, > hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would > reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this > reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? Should work fine. I'd be inclined to use two layers of Triax over the bulkheads fore and aft sides near the scoop cut-outs, but I've not done any calculations of the necessary reinforcement - that's just a guess. We cut out the firewall as well, so the scoops outlet is into the engine compartment, and we can mount the radiators to the back of the firewall. > 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the > NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate > the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed > and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added > height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I > have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines > seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump > tank....but photo's can be deceiving. Even sitting on top of the scoops, the sump top is below the bottom of my (Velocity Classic) strakes. > 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already > installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a > use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such > as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be > better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would > the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good > way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine > to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted > radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators > can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount > seems clearly the best. I'd ditch them as sources of unneeded drag, once you have the belly scoops. I plan to add a little NACA on the cabin top, for rear seat cooling, but you surely don't need two big scoops for that. > 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of > the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from > Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a > left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY > little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches > wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL > scoop prove a better choice. I, too, would buy the factory's scoops. I'd use the same ones that you have on top as the belly scoops, but buy a new pair to save work and time. > Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may > be missing and/or other thoughts. I need to get some pictures, and I'll have them in about three weeks, if y'all are interested. From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 03:44:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:44:10 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:FS VeriEZ References: <3F19FCC5.1000809@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3F1A01FA.4060200@tnstaafl.net> A friend of mine is trying to sell a VeriEZ, it has about 1000 hrs on it, I think the engine has about that too. A Cont. O200, two blade prop, I think its a Tift. the wings and canard were removed for painting 4 or 5 years ago. The whole plane is now in primer, close to ready for final painting. You know how that goes. They are pregnant again and he doesn't think he'll ever get to it. He is very motivated. He's asking 12K, I'm sure he'll take 10K, maybe less. His name is Mike Pope. He's in Santa Fe, NM. Plane is in Grants, NM. Good guy. 505-827-5122 Don't call late they have very young kid(s). Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 14:10:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:10:43 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider In-Reply-To: <3F19F8C0.8010908@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: We use updraft cooling and we moved the spider to the bottom. Our engine runs smooth even when hot on the ground. Dwane Swing suggested that we put the spider on the bottom to eliminate just the type of problem that several of the velocity flyers are having with rough running engines when hot. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:05 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Spider is on top and I'm using updraft cooling. I thought about putting a piece of insulation in the bottom side of the spider to keep it cooler. Think it would help? Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using > updraft or downdraft configuration? > > Michael Pollock > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider > > > Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the > injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm after > flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. > > I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty > consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same > salutory effect after pretty much any flight. > > Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have > enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing it > down the runway on landing. > > My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple > mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, should > not be dependent on the booster pump. > > Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I still > have a tiny bit of residual doubt. > > Chuck XL/RG > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider > > > Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. > > I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is > very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the > same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless > I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the > electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal > 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! > Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. > > This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel > vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low idle. > > First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no > problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. > > Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures > you are referring to were for a Franklin. > > The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so > but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines > when the cylinders are hot. > > Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! > > Scott > > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > >>I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all >>they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of >>investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, >>particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough >>at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after >>flight: >> >>As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates >>30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph > > @1000 > >>rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel >>flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays >>running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth >>operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's > > right > >>back in the dumps. >> >>At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no >>difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. >> >>One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? >>Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm >>with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. >> >>The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too >>lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the >>mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth > > ramp > >>operations (especially when hot). >> >>Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be >>unrelated to the observed symptoms. >> >>Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post >>talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I >>have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? >> 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on >>a 540? >> 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been >>this way for a long time with no further >>degradation/change) >> 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic >>of deterioration of the positive displacement type >>fuel pump? >> 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? >> >>I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't >>understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow >>should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. >> >>By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good >>mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, > > I > >>thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the > > Reflectorites. > >>Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas >>are sold. >> >>chuck >>N27GV >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 15:13:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:13:55 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: I have the top NACA and top fuel spider. It seems logical (another way of saying I lack proof of any sort) that the top spider receives ample cooling during flight but after landing, the heat soaked engine, with the sharp reduction of air cooling, will start to heat up the fuel lines and result in vaporization of the fuel, particularly around the injectors where there is a direct conduit for the heat from the engine body. Not having done engine work of this nature, is it a big deal to reposition the spider to the underside of the engine? Or, does it fall under the "if its only partly broken, don't fix it?" In sum, it's really no big deal to run the booster pump on the ground to ensure smooth operations. My greatest concern was whether this was an early indicator of a fuel pump that was going South. Since it appears the fuel pump is probably not a cripple, then the effort to sort it out is just part of the hang-up thing about it "not being right." However with a top-NACA, top-spider installation, this appears to be characteristic behavior and may be a good as it gets. Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:11 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider We use updraft cooling and we moved the spider to the bottom. Our engine runs smooth even when hot on the ground. Dwane Swing suggested that we put the spider on the bottom to eliminate just the type of problem that several of the velocity flyers are having with rough running engines when hot. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:05 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Spider is on top and I'm using updraft cooling. I thought about putting a piece of insulation in the bottom side of the spider to keep it cooler. Think it would help? Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using > updraft or downdraft configuration? > > Michael Pollock > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider > > > Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the > injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm after > flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. > > I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty > consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same > salutory effect after pretty much any flight. > > Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have > enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing it > down the runway on landing. > > My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple > mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, should > not be dependent on the booster pump. > > Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I still > have a tiny bit of residual doubt. > > Chuck XL/RG > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider > > > Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. > > I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is > very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the > same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless > I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the > electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal > 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! > Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. > > This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel > vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low idle. > > First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no > problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. > > Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures > you are referring to were for a Franklin. > > The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so > but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines > when the cylinders are hot. > > Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! > > Scott > > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > >>I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all >>they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of >>investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, >>particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough >>at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after >>flight: >> >>As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates >>30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph > > @1000 > >>rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel >>flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays >>running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth >>operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's > > right > >>back in the dumps. >> >>At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no >>difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. >> >>One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? >>Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm >>with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. >> >>The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too >>lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the >>mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth > > ramp > >>operations (especially when hot). >> >>Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be >>unrelated to the observed symptoms. >> >>Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post >>talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I >>have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? >> 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on >>a 540? >> 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been >>this way for a long time with no further >>degradation/change) >> 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic >>of deterioration of the positive displacement type >>fuel pump? >> 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? >> >>I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't >>understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow >>should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. >> >>By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good >>mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, > > I > >>thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the > > Reflectorites. > >>Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas >>are sold. >> >>chuck >>N27GV >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 15:12:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:12:13 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider References: Message-ID: <00ec01c34ec8$eb5a5f60$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Another "solution" is to run a small line from the spider to the fuel tank to allow more cool fuel to circulate and thereby reducing the occurrence of fuel vaporization. Modern fuel injected cars do this via a high pressure regular installed on the engine, and I believe some aviation installations have this as well. Only problem is, if you have a fuel flow meter, it will not read correctly unless you subtract the return flow. And then, you would be adding one more point of failure and possible fuel leak. And the fuel injector servo would probably have to be recalibrated. I like the rough idle! I paid lots for a hot cam for my Chevy powered 53 Studebaker coupe back in the '60's so it would idle rough at the red lights! Ah, I knew I should have bought the Franklin! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | I have the top NACA and top fuel spider. It seems logical (another way of | saying I lack proof of any sort) that the top spider receives ample cooling | during flight but after landing, the heat soaked engine, with the sharp | reduction of air cooling, will start to heat up the fuel lines and result in | vaporization of the fuel, particularly around the injectors where there is a | direct conduit for the heat from the engine body. | | Not having done engine work of this nature, is it a big deal to reposition | the spider to the underside of the engine? Or, does it fall under the "if | its only partly broken, don't fix it?" | | In sum, it's really no big deal to run the booster pump on the ground to | ensure smooth operations. My greatest concern was whether this was an early | indicator of a fuel pump that was going South. Since it appears the fuel | pump is probably not a cripple, then the effort to sort it out is just part | of the hang-up thing about it "not being right." However with a top-NACA, | top-spider installation, this appears to be characteristic behavior and may | be a good as it gets. | | Chuck | N27GV | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Mike Pollock | Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:11 AM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | We use updraft cooling and we moved the spider to the bottom. Our engine | runs smooth even when hot on the ground. Dwane Swing suggested that we put | the spider on the bottom to eliminate just the type of problem that several | of the velocity flyers are having with rough running engines when hot. | | Mike | | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Derrick | Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:05 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | Spider is on top and I'm using updraft cooling. I thought about putting | a piece of insulation in the bottom side of the spider to keep it | cooler. Think it would help? | | Scott | | Mike Pollock wrote: | > Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using | > updraft or downdraft configuration? | > | > Michael Pollock | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM | > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' | > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the | > injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm | after | > flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. | > | > I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty | > consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same | > salutory effect after pretty much any flight. | > | > Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have | > enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing | it | > down the runway on landing. | > | > My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple | > mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, | should | > not be dependent on the booster pump. | > | > Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I | still | > have a tiny bit of residual doubt. | > | > Chuck XL/RG | > | > | > | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Scott Derrick | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. | > | > I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is | > very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the | > same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless | > I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the | > electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal | > 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! | > Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. | > | > This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel | > vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low | idle. | > | > First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no | > problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. | > | > Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures | > you are referring to were for a Franklin. | > | > The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so | > but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines | > when the cylinders are hot. | > | > Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! | > | > Scott | > | > | > Chuck Jensen wrote: | > | >>I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all | >>they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of | >>investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, | >>particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough | >>at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after | >>flight: | >> | >>As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates | >>30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph | > | > @1000 | > | >>rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel | >>flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays | >>running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth | >>operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's | > | > right | > | >>back in the dumps. | >> | >>At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no | >>difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. | >> | >>One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? | >>Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm | >>with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. | >> | >>The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too | >>lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the | >>mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth | > | > ramp | > | >>operations (especially when hot). | >> | >>Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be | >>unrelated to the observed symptoms. | >> | >>Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post | >>talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I | >>have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? | >> 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on | >>a 540? | >> 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been | >>this way for a long time with no further | >>degradation/change) | >> 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic | >>of deterioration of the positive displacement type | >>fuel pump? | >> 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? | >> | >>I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't | >>understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow | >>should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. | >> | >>By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good | >>mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, | > | > I | > | >>thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the | > | > Reflectorites. | > | >>Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas | >>are sold. | >> | >>chuck | >>N27GV | >> | >>_______________________________________________ | >>To change your email address, visit | > | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | >> | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 15:18:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:18:38 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> My carburated Franlkin engine does not have a fuel filter. Should it have one? John From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 16:04:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:04:44 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: Ronnie, good shot! That should wake those Franklinsteins up! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:12 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Another "solution" is to run a small line from the spider to the fuel tank to allow more cool fuel to circulate and thereby reducing the occurrence of fuel vaporization. Modern fuel injected cars do this via a high pressure regular installed on the engine, and I believe some aviation installations have this as well. Only problem is, if you have a fuel flow meter, it will not read correctly unless you subtract the return flow. And then, you would be adding one more point of failure and possible fuel leak. And the fuel injector servo would probably have to be recalibrated. I like the rough idle! I paid lots for a hot cam for my Chevy powered 53 Studebaker coupe back in the '60's so it would idle rough at the red lights! Ah, I knew I should have bought the Franklin! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | I have the top NACA and top fuel spider. It seems logical (another way of | saying I lack proof of any sort) that the top spider receives ample cooling | during flight but after landing, the heat soaked engine, with the sharp | reduction of air cooling, will start to heat up the fuel lines and result in | vaporization of the fuel, particularly around the injectors where there is a | direct conduit for the heat from the engine body. | | Not having done engine work of this nature, is it a big deal to reposition | the spider to the underside of the engine? Or, does it fall under the "if | its only partly broken, don't fix it?" | | In sum, it's really no big deal to run the booster pump on the ground to | ensure smooth operations. My greatest concern was whether this was an early | indicator of a fuel pump that was going South. Since it appears the fuel | pump is probably not a cripple, then the effort to sort it out is just part | of the hang-up thing about it "not being right." However with a top-NACA, | top-spider installation, this appears to be characteristic behavior and may | be a good as it gets. | | Chuck | N27GV | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Mike Pollock | Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:11 AM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | We use updraft cooling and we moved the spider to the bottom. Our engine | runs smooth even when hot on the ground. Dwane Swing suggested that we put | the spider on the bottom to eliminate just the type of problem that several | of the velocity flyers are having with rough running engines when hot. | | Mike | | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Derrick | Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:05 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | Spider is on top and I'm using updraft cooling. I thought about putting | a piece of insulation in the bottom side of the spider to keep it | cooler. Think it would help? | | Scott | | Mike Pollock wrote: | > Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using | > updraft or downdraft configuration? | > | > Michael Pollock | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM | > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' | > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the | > injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm | after | > flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. | > | > I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty | > consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same | > salutory effect after pretty much any flight. | > | > Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have | > enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing | it | > down the runway on landing. | > | > My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple | > mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, | should | > not be dependent on the booster pump. | > | > Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I | still | > have a tiny bit of residual doubt. | > | > Chuck XL/RG | > | > | > | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Scott Derrick | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. | > | > I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is | > very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the | > same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless | > I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the | > electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal | > 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! | > Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. | > | > This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel | > vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low | idle. | > | > First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no | > problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. | > | > Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures | > you are referring to were for a Franklin. | > | > The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so | > but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines | > when the cylinders are hot. | > | > Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! | > | > Scott | > | > | > Chuck Jensen wrote: | > | >>I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all | >>they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of | >>investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, | >>particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough | >>at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after | >>flight: | >> | >>As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates | >>30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph | > | > @1000 | > | >>rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel | >>flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays | >>running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth | >>operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's | > | > right | > | >>back in the dumps. | >> | >>At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no | >>difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. | >> | >>One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? | >>Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm | >>with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. | >> | >>The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too | >>lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the | >>mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth | > | > ramp | > | >>operations (especially when hot). | >> | >>Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be | >>unrelated to the observed symptoms. | >> | >>Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post | >>talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I | >>have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? | >> 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on | >>a 540? | >> 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been | >>this way for a long time with no further | >>degradation/change) | >> 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic | >>of deterioration of the positive displacement type | >>fuel pump? | >> 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? | >> | >>I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't | >>understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow | >>should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. | >> | >>By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good | >>mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, | > | > I | > | >>thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the | > | > Reflectorites. | > | >>Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas | >>are sold. | >> | >>chuck | >>N27GV | >> | >>_______________________________________________ | >>To change your email address, visit | > | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | >> | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 15:48:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:48:30 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA References: Message-ID: <3F1AABBE.42D576C4@dixie-net.com> My SRG had two small fresh air NACAs about eight inches behind the nose gear door, each with a hole in the floor, centered in the floors for the pilot and copilot. Nearly most of the time there was no air coming in from the pilot side. Once during takeoff in gusty conditions there was a brief blast of warm air (I assume from the oil cooler outlet). When I would engage the heat flap, I would get a strong flow of unwanted cold air. Don't know about the copilot side and the NACAs are now glassed over. John CBarber wrote: > As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With > the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size > radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel > NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of > cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to > the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with > a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set > up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage > (which is not my preference). > > Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate > the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a > bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: > > 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the > basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love > them on their Velocity's, some don't. From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 16:10:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:10:28 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:A really fast EZ? References: Message-ID: <3F1AB0E4.1020502@tnstaafl.net> That Rutan guy is at it again! http://canards.tnstaafl.net/pulseEZ.htm Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 16:10:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Laurence Coen) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:10:44 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: John, The fuel filter is never part of the engine but rather part of the fuel system. That being said, yes you absolutely need a filter. Larry Coen SE/RG Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:18 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? > My carburated Franlkin engine does not have a fuel filter. Should it > have one? > > John > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 16:18:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:18:21 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F1AB2BD.90106@tnstaafl.net> Posilutely and Absotively!!! I had to change filters every 25 hours for the first 75 hours, I'm on a 50 hour change cycle now, but the last time it was still clean so thinking of doing it annually or 100 hours now. Scott John Dibble wrote: > My carburated Franlkin engine does not have a fuel filter. Should it > have one? > > John > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 17:38:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:38:24 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F1AC57F.D7761F80@dixie-net.com> Thanks. Can you recommend a filter and where to get it? I assume it will be located between the engine fuel pump and the carburetor. Can I use my fuel pressure downstream of the filter to determine when to replace? John Laurence Coen wrote: > John, > > The fuel filter is never part of the engine but rather part of the fuel > system. That being said, yes you absolutely need a filter. > > Larry Coen > SE/RG Franklin > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 17:45:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (J.P. Brooks) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:45:29 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:long ez Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030720094426.009e88d0@mail.cwebs.com> What was the New Mexico Gent with the EZ for sale? Thanks, JP Brooks Camas, WA From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 17:54:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:54:00 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:A really fast EZ? In-Reply-To: <3F1AB0E4.1020502@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Ever see the movie "Buckaroo Banzai" ? reminds me of the "supersonic" ford truck from that film. I suppose it is too late in the year for April fools...... and it looks like they spent a lot of time on it if it was just for a joke too..... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:A really fast EZ? That Rutan guy is at it again! http://canards.tnstaafl.net/pulseEZ.htm Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 18:19:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:19:56 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> <3F1AC57F.D7761F80@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <015801c34ee3$242d5800$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I would install the filter before the auxiliary fuel pump. I used a Airflow Performance #1090079 stainless steel screen fuel filter http://www.airflowperformance.com/airframe.htm which is a bit pricey at about $125 but required by them to warranty their high pressure fuel pump required for the Lycoming IO360 Bendix fuel injector system. With your set up, I would use one of the metal body paper fuel filter from your local auto parts store at about $5. Change it at 25, 50, hours then annually. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 12:38 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? | Thanks. Can you recommend a filter and where to get it? I assume it will be located | between the engine fuel pump and the carburetor. Can I use my fuel pressure | downstream of the filter to determine when to replace? | | John | | Laurence Coen wrote: | | > John, | > | > The fuel filter is never part of the engine but rather part of the fuel | > system. That being said, yes you absolutely need a filter. | > | > Larry Coen | > SE/RG Franklin | > | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 18:28:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:28:17 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:A really fast EZ? In-Reply-To: References: <3F1AB0E4.1020502@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030720101649.03b3bec0@mail.adelphia.net> They had it's twin at Burt's birthday party at Mojave a couple of weeks ago. My best guess was it was a start cart that they'd strapped to a Long EZ. It's an interesting choice as a platform. I don't think anyone knows what the Roncz canard's critical mach number is, and mach tuck with a canard would be instantly fatal. If they keep a reasonable redline that wouldn't be an issue, of course. At 11:54 AM 7/20/03 -0500, you wrote: >Ever see the movie "Buckaroo Banzai" ? reminds me of the "supersonic" ford >truck from that film. I suppose it is too late in the year for April >fools...... and it looks like they spent a lot of time on it if it was just >for a joke too..... > >-----Original Message----- >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >Behalf Of Scott Derrick >Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:10 AM >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Subject: REFLECTOR:A really fast EZ? > > >That Rutan guy is at it again! > >http://canards.tnstaafl.net/pulseEZ.htm > >Scott > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 18:45:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:45:35 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c34ee6$b9d82260$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34EAC.0D794A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris; Both theory and experience indicates the pressures toward the rear of the fuselage (at about the cowl cut) are fairly well recovered so NACA scoops can work pretty well. But also note that, in general, NACA scoops are not recommended for intakes to heat exchangers that tend to have fairly high air-side pressure drops. Even the authors of the original papers on the NACA scoop say so. Pressure recovery is not as high as with a ram scoop, especially far back on the fuselage where the boundary layer is well developed. So going this route you would want a radiator design that is relatively thin, and maybe a bit higher fin spacing. In sizing the scoop inlet, keep in mind that the rejection temp from our liquid cooled radiators is lower than the average fin temp of the aircooled engines, so we need more airflow for the same HP. The size of the Velocity supplied scoops is likely to be too small. Al -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of CBarber Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 5:22 PM To: Reflector@Tvbf.Org Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage (which is not my preference). Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love them on their Velocity's, some don't. 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be deceiving. 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount seems clearly the best. 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better choice. Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may be missing and/or other thoughts. All the best, Chris www.LoneStarVelocity.com Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34EAC.0D794A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris;

Both theory and experience indicates the pressures = toward the rear of the fuselage (at about the cowl cut) are fairly well = recovered so NACA scoops can work pretty well. But also note that, in general, = NACA scoops are not recommended for intakes to heat exchangers that tend to = have fairly high air-side pressure drops. Even the authors of the = original papers on the NACA scoop say so. Pressure recovery is not as = high as with a ram scoop, especially far back on the fuselage where the = boundary layer is well developed. So going this route you would want a = radiator design that is relatively thin, and maybe a bit higher fin = spacing.

In sizing the scoop inlet, keep in mind that the = rejection temp from our liquid cooled radiators is lower than the average fin temp = of the aircooled engines, so we need more airflow for the same HP. The = size of the Velocity supplied scoops is likely to be too = small.

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of CBarber
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 5:22 PM
To: Reflector@Tvbf.Org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA

As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. = With

the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full = size

radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the = duel

NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank = of

cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source = to

the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done = with

a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine = set

up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the = fuselage

(which is not my preference).

Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would = appreciate

the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be = a

bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address = include:

1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with = the

basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to = love

them on their Velocity's, some don't.

2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, = hole

from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I = would

reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this = reinforcement

be enough? Thoughts?

3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since = the NACA

scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the = sump

and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create = a

solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect = the

gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to = indicate

this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough = to

accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be = deceiving.

4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed = my

two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use = for

them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as = accessories

(alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off = closing

them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed = be

potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the = flow

from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine = and

mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this = entire

question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just = under

the engine mount seems clearly the best.

5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom = of the

fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from = Velocity,

Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA = scoop,

but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little = difference.

Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are = the

scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better = choice.

Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may = be

missing and/or other thoughts.

All the best,

Chris

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

Christopher Barber

Attorney and Counselor at Law

11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E

Suite 103

Houston, Texas 77089-4755

281-464-LAWS (5297)

"Serving the needs of Senior Texans"

CBarber@TexasAttorney.net

www.TexasAttorney.net

______________________________________________= _

To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34EAC.0D794A60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 18:51:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:51:30 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:173RG - IO-540 COMBO ... OH NO! Message-ID: <162.237668c8.2c4c30a2@aol.com> --part1_162.237668c8.2c4c30a2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tom: The diameter on my 4 bladed MT prop is 66". Its the same configuration that just made it back across the "pond" with the two fellows from England. They also have a 173rge with a Lycoming I/O540 and a 4 bladed MT prop. Since yours and mine are identical, you should be able to use a 66" prop. Chuck Lehrer N629CL --part1_162.237668c8.2c4c30a2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tom:
The diameter on my 4 bladed MT prop is 66". Its the same configuration that=20= just made it back across the "pond" with the two fellows from England. They=20= also have a 173rge with a Lycoming I/O540 and a 4 bladed MT prop. Since your= s and mine are identical, you should be able to use a 66" prop.
Chuck Lehrer
N629CL
--part1_162.237668c8.2c4c30a2_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 20:06:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:06:13 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: They are called "Purge Valves". They allow the gas to circulate without flooding. One came on my IO-540 from Performance Aero Engines. You activate it with a push-pull cable from the cockpit. -----Original Message----- From: Ronnie Brown [mailto:romott@adelphia.net] Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 8:12 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Another "solution" is to run a small line from the spider to the fuel tank to allow more cool fuel to circulate and thereby reducing the occurrence of fuel vaporization. Modern fuel injected cars do this via a high pressure regular installed on the engine, and I believe some aviation installations have this as well. Only problem is, if you have a fuel flow meter, it will not read correctly unless you subtract the return flow. And then, you would be adding one more point of failure and possible fuel leak. And the fuel injector servo would probably have to be recalibrated. I like the rough idle! I paid lots for a hot cam for my Chevy powered 53 Studebaker coupe back in the '60's so it would idle rough at the red lights! Ah, I knew I should have bought the Franklin! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | I have the top NACA and top fuel spider. It seems logical (another way of | saying I lack proof of any sort) that the top spider receives ample cooling | during flight but after landing, the heat soaked engine, with the sharp | reduction of air cooling, will start to heat up the fuel lines and result in | vaporization of the fuel, particularly around the injectors where there is a | direct conduit for the heat from the engine body. | | Not having done engine work of this nature, is it a big deal to reposition | the spider to the underside of the engine? Or, does it fall under the "if | its only partly broken, don't fix it?" | | In sum, it's really no big deal to run the booster pump on the ground to | ensure smooth operations. My greatest concern was whether this was an early | indicator of a fuel pump that was going South. Since it appears the fuel | pump is probably not a cripple, then the effort to sort it out is just part | of the hang-up thing about it "not being right." However with a top-NACA, | top-spider installation, this appears to be characteristic behavior and may | be a good as it gets. | | Chuck | N27GV | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Mike Pollock | Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:11 AM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | We use updraft cooling and we moved the spider to the bottom. Our engine | runs smooth even when hot on the ground. Dwane Swing suggested that we put | the spider on the bottom to eliminate just the type of problem that several | of the velocity flyers are having with rough running engines when hot. | | Mike | | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Derrick | Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:05 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | Spider is on top and I'm using updraft cooling. I thought about putting | a piece of insulation in the bottom side of the spider to keep it | cooler. Think it would help? | | Scott | | Mike Pollock wrote: | > Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using | > updraft or downdraft configuration? | > | > Michael Pollock | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM | > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' | > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the | > injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm | after | > flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. | > | > I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty | > consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same | > salutory effect after pretty much any flight. | > | > Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have | > enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing | it | > down the runway on landing. | > | > My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple | > mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, | should | > not be dependent on the booster pump. | > | > Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I | still | > have a tiny bit of residual doubt. | > | > Chuck XL/RG | > | > | > | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Scott Derrick | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. | > | > I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is | > very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the | > same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless | > I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the | > electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal | > 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! | > Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. | > | > This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel | > vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low | idle. | > | > First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no | > problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. | > | > Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures | > you are referring to were for a Franklin. | > | > The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so | > but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines | > when the cylinders are hot. | > | > Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! | > | > Scott | > | > | > Chuck Jensen wrote: | > | >>I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all | >>they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of | >>investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, | >>particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough | >>at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after | >>flight: | >> | >>As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates | >>30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph | > | > @1000 | > | >>rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel | >>flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays | >>running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth | >>operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's | > | > right | > | >>back in the dumps. | >> | >>At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no | >>difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. | >> | >>One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? | >>Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm | >>with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. | >> | >>The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too | >>lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the | >>mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth | > | > ramp | > | >>operations (especially when hot). | >> | >>Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be | >>unrelated to the observed symptoms. | >> | >>Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post | >>talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I | >>have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? | >> 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on | >>a 540? | >> 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been | >>this way for a long time with no further | >>degradation/change) | >> 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic | >>of deterioration of the positive displacement type | >>fuel pump? | >> 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? | >> | >>I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't | >>understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow | >>should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. | >> | >>By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good | >>mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, | > | > I | > | >>thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the | > | > Reflectorites. | > | >>Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas | >>are sold. | >> | >>chuck | >>N27GV | >> | >>_______________________________________________ | >>To change your email address, visit | > | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | >> | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 22:38:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:38:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C34F07.38077C70 Content-Type: text/plain Interesting. Do you like it? Does it work? Do you use it? Is it worth the bother? Is there a downside fault to it? Such as, if you leave it pulled and start full power ops. Or, is it just simpler to use the booster pump on the ground during hot weather and forget about it? Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 3:06 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider They are called "Purge Valves". They allow the gas to circulate without flooding. One came on my IO-540 from Performance Aero Engines. You activate it with a push-pull cable from the cockpit. -----Original Message----- From: Ronnie Brown [mailto:romott@adelphia.net] Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 8:12 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider Another "solution" is to run a small line from the spider to the fuel tank to allow more cool fuel to circulate and thereby reducing the occurrence of fuel vaporization. Modern fuel injected cars do this via a high pressure regular installed on the engine, and I believe some aviation installations have this as well. Only problem is, if you have a fuel flow meter, it will not read correctly unless you subtract the return flow. And then, you would be adding one more point of failure and possible fuel leak. And the fuel injector servo would probably have to be recalibrated. I like the rough idle! I paid lots for a hot cam for my Chevy powered 53 Studebaker coupe back in the '60's so it would idle rough at the red lights! Ah, I knew I should have bought the Franklin! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | I have the top NACA and top fuel spider. It seems logical (another way of | saying I lack proof of any sort) that the top spider receives ample cooling | during flight but after landing, the heat soaked engine, with the sharp | reduction of air cooling, will start to heat up the fuel lines and result in | vaporization of the fuel, particularly around the injectors where there is a | direct conduit for the heat from the engine body. | | Not having done engine work of this nature, is it a big deal to reposition | the spider to the underside of the engine? Or, does it fall under the "if | its only partly broken, don't fix it?" | | In sum, it's really no big deal to run the booster pump on the ground to | ensure smooth operations. My greatest concern was whether this was an early | indicator of a fuel pump that was going South. Since it appears the fuel | pump is probably not a cripple, then the effort to sort it out is just part | of the hang-up thing about it "not being right." However with a top-NACA, | top-spider installation, this appears to be characteristic behavior and may | be a good as it gets. | | Chuck | N27GV | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Mike Pollock | Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:11 AM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | We use updraft cooling and we moved the spider to the bottom. Our engine | runs smooth even when hot on the ground. Dwane Swing suggested that we put | the spider on the bottom to eliminate just the type of problem that several | of the velocity flyers are having with rough running engines when hot. | | Mike | | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Derrick | Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:05 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | | | Spider is on top and I'm using updraft cooling. I thought about putting | a piece of insulation in the bottom side of the spider to keep it | cooler. Think it would help? | | Scott | | Mike Pollock wrote: | > Is your fuel injector spider on the top of the engine? Are you using | > updraft or downdraft configuration? | > | > Michael Pollock | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:26 AM | > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' | > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Well, maybe the booster pump is enough to overcome the vaporization in the | > injection line because it will run pretty smooth even down to 700 rpm | after | > flight, if the booster is run. But won't smoothly at 1100 rpm wo/booster. | > | > I can see how the temp/conditions in the injection lines would be pretty | > consistent after power operations so the booster pump would have the same | > salutory effect after pretty much any flight. | > | > Good thought on not increasing the idle speed. The brakes already have | > enough work to do without having to overcome a fast idling engine pushing | it | > down the runway on landing. | > | > My concern that "this ain't right" grew out of comments from a couple | > mechanics and a CFI that thought smooth engine ops, even at low rpms, | should | > not be dependent on the booster pump. | > | > Nonetheless, Scott gets the Southern Comfort(ing)Award, even though I | still | > have a tiny bit of residual doubt. | > | > Chuck XL/RG | > | > | > | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | > Behalf Of Scott Derrick | > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:54 AM | > To: reflector@tvbf.org | > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider | > | > | > Sounds pretty normal for an injected lycoming. | > | > I have a IO360 which isn't the same engine but the injection system is | > very similar. I also have a Mag/IE combo. My plane runs exactly the | > same. Very smooth idle when cold, idles rough as a cob when hot unless | > I increase the fuel flow to about 5 gph. I can do this using the | > electric fuel pump or just idle it at 1000 rpm instead of the normal | > 600-700 which is what I do when hot. DO NOT increase your idle speed!! | > Bad idea. You want that low idle speed when landing so you can slow down. | > | > This rough idle is worse in the summer for my plane. Its just the fuel | > vaporizing in the injection lines, no biggie as it only happens at low | idle. | > | > First time it happened to me I ran to my friend an A&P/IA. He said, no | > problemo. Just Lycomings injection system design. | > | > Your fuel pressures sound right on to me, I think the other pressures | > you are referring to were for a Franklin. | > | > The A&P that enrichened the idle mixture was probably right in doing so | > but that won't effect the vaporization of fuel in your injection lines | > when the cylinders are hot. | > | > Sounds like your setup is right on, keep flying! | > | > Scott | > | > | > Chuck Jensen wrote: | > | >>I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all | >>they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of | >>investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, | >>particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough | >>at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after | >>flight: | >> | >>As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates | >>30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph | > | > @1000 | > | >>rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel | >>flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays | >>running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth | >>operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's | > | > right | > | >>back in the dumps. | >> | >>At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no | >>difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. | >> | >>One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? | >>Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm | >>with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. | >> | >>The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too | >>lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the | >>mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth | > | > ramp | > | >>operations (especially when hot). | >> | >>Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be | >>unrelated to the observed symptoms. | >> | >>Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post | >>talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I | >>have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? | >> 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on | >>a 540? | >> 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been | >>this way for a long time with no further | >>degradation/change) | >> 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic | >>of deterioration of the positive displacement type | >>fuel pump? | >> 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? | >> | >>I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't | >>understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow | >>should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. | >> | >>By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good | >>mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, | > | > I | > | >>thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the | > | > Reflectorites. | > | >>Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas | >>are sold. | >> | >>chuck | >>N27GV | >> | >>_______________________________________________ | >>To change your email address, visit | > | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | >> | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------_=_NextPart_000_01C34F07.38077C70 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ig0VAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAA0wcHABQAEQAmAAsAAAA3AQEggAMADgAAANMHBwAU ABEAJgALAAAANwEBCYABACEAAAA1Q0QxMzYyNUVGQjlENzExOTYxQjAwNTAwNEE1MjAwNADnBgEE 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References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> <3F1AC57F.D7761F80@dixie-net.com> <015801c34ee3$242d5800$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F1B03E6.9242892D@dixie-net.com> I'm thinking the filter should be after both pumps so there is adequate pressure to push the fuel through the filter. Also this way I will have advance warning by seeing a reduced fuel pressure as the filter starts to plug. John Ronnie Brown wrote: > I would install the filter before the auxiliary fuel pump. > > I used a Airflow Performance #1090079 stainless steel screen fuel filter > http://www.airflowperformance.com/airframe.htm which is a bit pricey at > about $125 but required by them to warranty their high pressure fuel pump > required for the Lycoming IO360 Bendix fuel injector system. > > With your set up, I would use one of the metal body paper fuel filter from > your local auto parts store at about $5. Change it at 25, 50, hours then > annually. > > Ronnie From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 20 22:44:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:44:37 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> <3F1AC57F.D7761F80@dixie-net.com> <015801c34ee3$242d5800$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <3F1B03E6.9242892D@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <019d01c34f08$1e69f8e0$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> John, You don't want to wait for the filter to get so plugged up that you start loosing pressure (and power). You definitely don't want to find out that your filter is plugged when you just rotated and the point that you will have the highest fuel flow. Keep the filter changed in the first few hundred hours. Another reason to put the filter before your fuel pumps is to make sure no trash gets to the pump and its critical internal check valves. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 5:04 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? | I'm thinking the filter should be after both pumps so there is adequate pressure to | push the fuel through the filter. Also this way I will have advance warning by seeing | a reduced fuel pressure as the filter starts to plug. | | John | | Ronnie Brown wrote: | | > I would install the filter before the auxiliary fuel pump. | > | > I used a Airflow Performance #1090079 stainless steel screen fuel filter | > http://www.airflowperformance.com/airframe.htm which is a bit pricey at | > about $125 but required by them to warranty their high pressure fuel pump | > required for the Lycoming IO360 Bendix fuel injector system. | > | > With your set up, I would use one of the metal body paper fuel filter from | > your local auto parts store at about $5. Change it at 25, 50, hours then | > annually. | > | > Ronnie | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 00:13:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (CBarber) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:13:45 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA In-Reply-To: <200307200224.h6K2ODB20790@thuvia.qswtools.com> Message-ID: Yes, I am interested in the pix. Hmmm, so two belly Naca's. I guess I can place them closer together on the bottom than the top so I do not interfere with the wiring conduits. Thanks All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of William C. Cox Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:24 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Chris asks: > As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. > With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position > a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Yep. This is where my radiators are as well. > Unlike the dual NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage > and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should > only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate > cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the > bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I > saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage> (which is not my > preference). At Scott Lower's (formerly of Hangar 18) suggestion, we did almost exactly this. We put a pair of NACAs on the belly, and I've got a dual oil-cooler rig to catch the air from them to cool my Subaru 2.2 liter four-banger. > Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity? I would > appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or > reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need > to address include: > 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the > basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to > love them on their Velocity's, some don't. I believe they'll work better on the bottom of the plane than on the top - more high-pressure air there. The only liability that I see is the risk of little stones banging up the radiators. Actually my radiators are two oil coolers from Earl's in Long Beach, CA. There's about a three-inch space between them, which I have filled with a fiberglass piece to catch combustion air and feed it through a 3-inch hose to the throttle body. So the scoop under the left wing goes away. > 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, > hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would > reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this > reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? Should work fine. I'd be inclined to use two layers of Triax over the bulkheads fore and aft sides near the scoop cut-outs, but I've not done any calculations of the necessary reinforcement - that's just a guess. We cut out the firewall as well, so the scoops outlet is into the engine compartment, and we can mount the radiators to the back of the firewall. > 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the > NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate > the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed > and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added > height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I > have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines > seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump > tank....but photo's can be deceiving. Even sitting on top of the scoops, the sump top is below the bottom of my (Velocity Classic) strakes. > 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already > installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a > use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such > as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be > better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would > the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good > way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine > to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted > radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators > can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount > seems clearly the best. I'd ditch them as sources of unneeded drag, once you have the belly scoops. I plan to add a little NACA on the cabin top, for rear seat cooling, but you surely don't need two big scoops for that. > 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of > the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from > Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a > left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY > little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches > wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL > scoop prove a better choice. I, too, would buy the factory's scoops. I'd use the same ones that you have on top as the belly scoops, but buy a new pair to save work and time. > Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may > be missing and/or other thoughts. I need to get some pictures, and I'll have them in about three weeks, if y'all are interested. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 00:17:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:17:20 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <1ea.d4824b8.2c48a218@aol.com> <00d801c34cd8$d67bf280$4c264ed8@mshome.net> <3F1AA4BE.371BD8D@dixie-net.com> <3F1AC57F.D7761F80@dixie-net.com> <015801c34ee3$242d5800$6e424744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <3F1B03E6.9242892D@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F1B2300.1020702@tnstaafl.net> No you want the filter right after your sump tank cut off valve and before the pump. Thats standard in just about any airplane I've ever maintained. Scott Scott John Dibble wrote: > I'm thinking the filter should be after both pumps so there is adequate pressure to > push the fuel through the filter. Also this way I will have advance warning by seeing > a reduced fuel pressure as the filter starts to plug. > > John > > Ronnie Brown wrote: > > >>I would install the filter before the auxiliary fuel pump. >> >>I used a Airflow Performance #1090079 stainless steel screen fuel filter >>http://www.airflowperformance.com/airframe.htm which is a bit pricey at >>about $125 but required by them to warranty their high pressure fuel pump >>required for the Lycoming IO360 Bendix fuel injector system. >> >>With your set up, I would use one of the metal body paper fuel filter from >>your local auto parts store at about $5. Change it at 25, 50, hours then >>annually. >> >>Ronnie > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 01:17:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? In-Reply-To: <3F1B03E6.9242892D@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <20030721001733.91340.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> John, I used a Sierra Fuel filter assembly that uses a screw on filter cartridge and is a paper filter and water trap. It is made for marine use and will flow plenty of fuel (50 GPH) if I remember correctly. The adapter is aluminum not pot metal and can take a pounding. The only addition I made was a small piece of right angle aluminum with a #8 Bolt sticking up and a large hose clamp that goes around the filter to make sure it cannot unscrew. I use a heavy duty clamp that has small loops at the ends that hing and I slide one of these loops over the #8 bolt to lock the filter. The entire unit is inexpensive and is available at most marine stores. If you would like pictures and the model # let me know. Jim --- John Dibble wrote: > I'm thinking the filter should be after both pumps so > there is adequate pressure to > push the fuel through the filter. Also this way I will > have advance warning by seeing > a reduced fuel pressure as the filter starts to plug. > > John > > Ronnie Brown wrote: > > > I would install the filter before the auxiliary fuel > pump. > > > > I used a Airflow Performance #1090079 stainless steel > screen fuel filter > > http://www.airflowperformance.com/airframe.htm which is > a bit pricey at > > about $125 but required by them to warranty their high > pressure fuel pump > > required for the Lycoming IO360 Bendix fuel injector > system. > > > > With your set up, I would use one of the metal body > paper fuel filter from > > your local auto parts store at about $5. Change it at > 25, 50, hours then > > annually. > > > > Ronnie > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 02:02:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:02:53 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? Message-ID: John... What kind of fuel pressure gauge do you have and where is the probe...??? Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 01:56:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:56:07 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? Message-ID: John... Put the filter in line before the fuel pumps...You need to protect the pumps from debris in the tank...That is what they are for in a fuel injected engine...The servo body has it's own final filter to protect the injector spider valve and nozzles... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 13:04:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:04:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems References: <1ab.17e59a68.2c49a19b@aol.com> Message-ID: <002b01c34f80$42c7e2b0$9865fea9@tungsten.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C34F56.59A2D050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where did you get the Valve covers for you V6? Ron ----- Original Message -----=20 From: NMFlyer1@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Exhuast systems Mark,=20 Missed your question on my exhaust. Here's a picture of the system on = my V-6. =20 Yes, it is stainless and includes a vortex (tm) cone baffle in the aft = end.=20 looks big, because it is. The aft opening is 3" on each side. That = should allow the exhaust to expand & cool a little right before the = vortex cone. Then I have about 10" before the prop chops it to pieces.=20 I plan on putting on Temp. Tape to monitor the temps against the prop. = Kurt Winker=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C34F56.59A2D050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Where did you get the Valve covers for = you=20 V6?

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 NMFlyer1@aol.com=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 = 2:16 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Exhuast=20 systems

Mark,

Missed your question on my = exhaust. =20 Here's a picture of the system on my V-6.
Yes, it is = stainless and=20 includes a vortex (tm) cone baffle in the aft end.
looks big, = because it=20 is. The aft opening is 3" on each side. That should allow the = exhaust to=20 expand & cool a little right before the vortex cone. Then I have = about 10"=20 before the prop chops it to pieces.

I plan on putting on Temp. = Tape to=20 monitor the temps against the prop.

Kurt Winker=20

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C34F56.59A2D050-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 14:13:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:13:44 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's Message-ID: Greg, The number of planes sold would be an inferential stat at best. To be more accurate, one could compare the number registered. Still not very accurate because registered does not mean flying and that is what you would like to know. Even better, the hours flown, by what level of pilot on what type mission. As you said. Damn lies and statistics. Jerry "Greg Poole" au> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/18/2003 09:50 PM Please respond to reflector Scott et al., Stats, damn lies and statistics! Without knowing the number of Lancairs flying compared to Velocitys, there is absolutely no way you can draw any conclusions on relative safety between the two. I had one friend tell me that L's sell to V's in a ratio 18:1 but I guess the factory would have more of an accurate idea of such relativities. Even if 10:1 were right, it would make the V safety record look pretty sick based on the stats for total accidents provided below (admittedly the ratio of fatals to accidents look better but how significant is this if we have a higher % of total flying as fatals??). ....and what about flying hours? This could make a huge difference to the result if one group flies significantly more than the other. Nah, .....if I can share a few things my late father used to say that seem to fit here; - "relativities are odious", &, "pointing out the guilt of others does nothing to prove one's own innocence". Food for deeper thought! Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's > A quik and very unscientific search of the NTSB records shows > > From 95 to this year > > Lancairs 47 accidents , 18 were fatal > > Velocitys 24 accidents, 6 were fatal > > I don't have any idea how many Lancairs are flying or Velocitys. > > I don't know why 1 out of 2.5 accidents in Lancairs are fatal while > Velocity's are 1 out of 4? > > I do think the Velocity is safer than most. > > Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 15:01:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:01:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider References: Message-ID: <000001c34f95$0c7017e0$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Chuck: Try wrapping the injector lines with an insulation material to reduce the vapor lock issues. At idle place a fan on the air inlets to keep the engine cool to see again if the problem is due to vapor lock. This should rule out the vapor lock argument. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:24 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Rough Rider > I have an engine issue that two mechanics have looked at...and that's all > they've done. I wondered if anyone has ideas on avenues of > investigation/solution. I'm running a 540 with mag/EI combo. The engine, > particularly after a long flight (less so after starting cold), runs rough > at ramp speed (1,000 rpm). Here are the symptoms with a hot engine after > flight: > > As long as the booster pump is on, runs smooth as glass. VM-100 indicates > 30 psi (from another post, is that way too high??) and approx. 4.0 gph @1000 > rpm. If the booster pump is secured, fuel pressure drops to 28 psi, fuel > flow shows 1.7 and engine bounces between 650-700 and just barely stays > running. Turn the boost back on, and it immediately goes back to smooth > operations with the first set of values. Turn the boost off, and it's right > back in the dumps. > > At cruise or high power operations, the boost pump on/off makes no > difference in fuel pressure, fuel flow or smoothness of operations. > > One mechanic suggested that the idle speed needed to be increased. ?? > Seems he was missing the point. I'm intentionally setting it at 1,000 rpm > with the booster, then engine goes in the toilet when the booster is cut. > > The second mechanic increased the richness setting which may have been too > lean since I did not get a temporary rpm increase when cutting off the > mixture, but the reliance on the booster pump did not change for smooth ramp > operations (especially when hot). > > Induction plenum has been checked thoroughly but that would seem to be > unrelated to the observed symptoms. > > Questions: 1) are my fuel pressure values way out of line (earlier post > talked about 5-6 psi)? 2) if my numbers are bogus, do I > have a bad fuel pressure sensor or ground? > 3) what do others run for fuel pressure/flow at 1,000 rpm on > a 540? > 4) is the main fuel pump going in the crapper? (its been > this way for a long time with no further > degradation/change) > 5) is this type of poor low power performance characteristic > of deterioration of the positive displacement type > fuel pump? > 6) is there a way to check the main fuel pump performance? > > I was in the camp that the main fuel pump is going downhill but I don't > understand why, if it is putting out that much pressure, why the fuel flow > should fall so much when the booster pump is secured. > > By all rights, these questions should be investigated and fixed by a good > mechanic (which exempts me), but since that avenue has been unproductive, I > thought I'd check out the collective wisdom/experience of the Reflectorites. > Best idea wins an official Atta Boy award; redeemable wherever good ideas > are sold. > > chuck > N27GV > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 14:44:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:44:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <20030721001733.91340.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F1BEE24.8E4837A1@dixie-net.com> A picture would be great. John Jim Agnew wrote: > John, > > I used a Sierra Fuel filter assembly that uses a screw on > filter cartridge and is a paper filter and water trap. It > is made for marine use and will flow plenty of fuel (50 > GPH) if I remember correctly. The adapter is aluminum not > pot metal and can take a pounding. The only addition I > made was a small piece of right angle aluminum with a #8 > Bolt sticking up and a large hose clamp that goes around > the filter to make sure it cannot unscrew. I use a heavy > duty clamp that has small loops at the ends that hing and I > slide one of these loops over the #8 bolt to lock the > filter. The entire unit is inexpensive and is available at > most marine stores. If you would like pictures and the > model # let me know. > > Jim From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 14:51:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:51:37 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: Message-ID: <3F1BEFE9.9D69D024@dixie-net.com> I have an RMI Monitor. The VDO sensor is after both pumps and before the carburetor. steve korney wrote: > John... > > What kind of fuel pressure gauge do you have and where is the probe...??? > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 21 19:16:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:16:15 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA References: Message-ID: <001101c34fb4$2e1065c0$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Chris, I just finished installing the upper NACAs on my SEFG ... The NACA scoops supplied have a right and left side - looking at the back you'll see one edge droops more than the other to accommodate the curvature of the fuselage. Looking at their shape, I don't think you'd be able to make them fit under the belly as it's much flatter than the upper "corners" of the fuselage - even there it was difficult to get a good fit. I do recall seeing somewhere on the web a place where you could buy NACA scoops in a variety of sizes, these I'm guessing would be flat and may be a better fit for the belly. Perhaps someone else has the URL. Cheers, Snip > Hmmm, so two belly Naca's. I guess I can > place them closer together on the bottom than the top so I do not interfere > with the wiring conduits. > > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 03:16:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:16:47 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> <3F178715.6010901@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <001101c34ff7$4e1ac700$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Here's the number of flying Lancairs - this comes from a friend who is building an ES. My figure would be to say that there are approx. 550 2 places (235,330,360), 200 Lancair IV/IV-P and Propjets, approx. 20 Legacys, and 40 Lancair ES's. This would make the total Lancair fleet flying of approximately 810. I think I recall somebody saying there about 300 Velocities flying. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 1:35 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's | A quik and very unscientific search of the NTSB records shows | | From 95 to this year | | Lancairs 47 accidents , 18 were fatal | | Velocitys 24 accidents, 6 were fatal | | I don't have any idea how many Lancairs are flying or Velocitys. | | I don't know why 1 out of 2.5 accidents in Lancairs are fatal while | Velocity's are 1 out of 4? | | I do think the Velocity is safer than most. | | Scott | | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 03:52:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (CBarber) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:52:26 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's In-Reply-To: <001101c34ff7$4e1ac700$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: Ronnie, Interesting info. I believe this info just demonstrates the difficulty of making comparisons. Both the SE and XL are pretty similar planes (even though the size difference, esp. to engine choice is important). However, look at how different the Lancairs are, not just from Velocity's, but from one another. I have friends building both Legacy and an ES. Very different planes altogether. IMHO, this skews the comparison as well. Seems to me the ES is the most comparable to the Velocity, but even this is anybody's call. The ES and SE? (oops, no retract on the ES) The XL and IV?(ok, lets just forget the "P", the new DR. killers). Ok, my brain is full, I going back to surfing builders pages. FWIW. All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's Here's the number of flying Lancairs - this comes from a friend who is building an ES. My figure would be to say that there are approx. 550 2 places (235,330,360), 200 Lancair IV/IV-P and Propjets, approx. 20 Legacys, and 40 Lancair ES's. This would make the total Lancair fleet flying of approximately 810. I think I recall somebody saying there about 300 Velocities flying. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 1:35 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's | A quik and very unscientific search of the NTSB records shows | | From 95 to this year | | Lancairs 47 accidents , 18 were fatal | | Velocitys 24 accidents, 6 were fatal | | I don't have any idea how many Lancairs are flying or Velocitys. | | I don't know why 1 out of 2.5 accidents in Lancairs are fatal while | Velocity's are 1 out of 4? | | I do think the Velocity is safer than most. | | Scott | | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 04:21:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (CBarber) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:21:21 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Picture update on my site.....yeah, finally In-Reply-To: <001101c34ff7$4e1ac700$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: For those of you that like to follow this sort of thing, like I do, in addition to the new pictures I posted yesterday, I have added new shots to my builders web page today as well. FWIW. All the best, Chris www.LoneStarVelocity.com Houston Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 05:00:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeffrey Clough) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:00:35 -0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:PZL - F/69/2002 Service Bulletin Message-ID: <000a01c35005$cef66a60$3fb070d1@jeffreyhome> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C34FC2.BFE65960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I rec'd the above Service Bulletin from PZL Franklin via reg'd mail = today. It has to do with the gear teeth of the oil pump and camshaft. = I can send (off the reflector) the scanned images of the text for anyone = who wants it. J Clough ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C34FC2.BFE65960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I rec'd the above Service Bulletin from PZL Franklin = via reg'd=20 mail today.   It has to do with the gear teeth of=20 the oil pump and camshaft. I can send (off the reflector) the = scanned=20 images of the text for anyone who wants it.   J=20 Clough
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C34FC2.BFE65960-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 05:42:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (CBarber) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:42:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alex, Group Is that "external belly NACA" a single scoop or a set of two like on the top. I assume it does not extrude down so far as to be a big drag problem. I don't know if two on the bottom or one is better/more efficient etc. I am considering just making them out of the belly skin like they were done on the top before VeloInc started supplying the premade ones. It does not seem that difficult. By any chance do you have the dimension on the one for the XL. Unless it is huge, it may be worth considering for my application. Obviously I am in the preliminary planning/investigation phase. I just know this will probably be easier now than later. And since I am trying it get the cash to buy my wings, I gotta do something productive on the project . As always, thanks. All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:33 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Chris, Velocity has an external belly mounted NACA that they supply with the XL kits, I have one, and I will be using it for the radiator on my XLRG, it mounts externally to the belly, and forms the inlet by raising the surrounding area instead of lowering the skin, but the skin naturally diverts from the air stream there anyway, so I suppose it works OK,, I will have a radiator in the same place that you will, so I am going to install the belly scoop so I don't have to route all of that air from the top. and use the top 2 scoops for other cooling needs. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of CBarber Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 7:22 PM To: Reflector@Tvbf.Org Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage (which is not my preference). Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love them on their Velocity's, some don't. 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be deceiving. 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount seems clearly the best. 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better choice. Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may be missing and/or other thoughts. All the best, Chris www.LoneStarVelocity.com Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 14:48:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:48:44 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris, it is at the hanger at the moment, but I would estimate that the opening is approx. 1 1/2" x 14" and the length of the scoop from the foreword tip to the inlet is about 28" and about another 18 or so behind to fair back into the lower cowl- for me, I need to use it, because I can't cut into the skin in the belly- gear bulkhead is down there with pulleys, plus the sump is already sandwiched between the spar and the floor, so external is the way to go for me, I would think that it would be a lot easier also, but a tad more drag inducing...... Alex PS, I'll try to get some pictures of it for you in the next day or so- just feels like an ez bake oven in that hanger right now - the fan I have just makes it into a convection oven........ -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of CBarber Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 10:43 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Alex, Group Is that "external belly NACA" a single scoop or a set of two like on the top. I assume it does not extrude down so far as to be a big drag problem. I don't know if two on the bottom or one is better/more efficient etc. I am considering just making them out of the belly skin like they were done on the top before VeloInc started supplying the premade ones. It does not seem that difficult. By any chance do you have the dimension on the one for the XL. Unless it is huge, it may be worth considering for my application. Obviously I am in the preliminary planning/investigation phase. I just know this will probably be easier now than later. And since I am trying it get the cash to buy my wings, I gotta do something productive on the project . As always, thanks. All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:33 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Chris, Velocity has an external belly mounted NACA that they supply with the XL kits, I have one, and I will be using it for the radiator on my XLRG, it mounts externally to the belly, and forms the inlet by raising the surrounding area instead of lowering the skin, but the skin naturally diverts from the air stream there anyway, so I suppose it works OK,, I will have a radiator in the same place that you will, so I am going to install the belly scoop so I don't have to route all of that air from the top. and use the top 2 scoops for other cooling needs. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of CBarber Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 7:22 PM To: Reflector@Tvbf.Org Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage (which is not my preference). Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love them on their Velocity's, some don't. 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be deceiving. 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount seems clearly the best. 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better choice. Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may be missing and/or other thoughts. All the best, Chris www.LoneStarVelocity.com Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 14:56:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:56:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's References: <007201c34ce7$dd939960$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F178156.3060002@tnstaafl.net> <3F178715.6010901@tnstaafl.net> <001101c34ff7$4e1ac700$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F1D427E.1010801@tnstaafl.net> Seems like the accident ratio is about the same.. Fatals arn't though. Thats probably because the 2 place Lancairs are such hot rods. Scott Ronnie Brown wrote: > Here's the number of flying Lancairs - this comes from a friend who is > building an ES. > > My figure would be to say that there are approx. 550 2 places > (235,330,360), 200 Lancair IV/IV-P and Propjets, approx. 20 Legacys, and > 40 Lancair ES's. This would make the total Lancair fleet flying of > approximately 810. > > I think I recall somebody saying there about 300 Velocities flying. > > Ronnie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Derrick" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 1:35 AM > Subject: REFLECTOR:V's vs L's > > > | A quik and very unscientific search of the NTSB records shows > | > | From 95 to this year > | > | Lancairs 47 accidents , 18 were fatal > | > | Velocitys 24 accidents, 6 were fatal > | > | I don't have any idea how many Lancairs are flying or Velocitys. > | > | I don't know why 1 out of 2.5 accidents in Lancairs are fatal while > | Velocity's are 1 out of 4? > | > | I do think the Velocity is safer than most. > | > | Scott > | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 16:47:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:47:56 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hah. I know what you mean. With the Houston Humidity, it is the same and very moist. Luckily I can walk from my hanger directly into my house. The advantage, for now, of a garage built project. Thanks for the input. Also, thanks for the offer on the pix All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 8:49 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Chris, it is at the hanger at the moment, but I would estimate that the opening is approx. 1 1/2" x 14" and the length of the scoop from the foreword tip to the inlet is about 28" and about another 18 or so behind to fair back into the lower cowl- for me, I need to use it, because I can't cut into the skin in the belly- gear bulkhead is down there with pulleys, plus the sump is already sandwiched between the spar and the floor, so external is the way to go for me, I would think that it would be a lot easier also, but a tad more drag inducing...... Alex PS, I'll try to get some pictures of it for you in the next day or so- just feels like an ez bake oven in that hanger right now - the fan I have just makes it into a convection oven........ -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of CBarber Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 10:43 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Alex, Group Is that "external belly NACA" a single scoop or a set of two like on the top. I assume it does not extrude down so far as to be a big drag problem. I don't know if two on the bottom or one is better/more efficient etc. I am considering just making them out of the belly skin like they were done on the top before VeloInc started supplying the premade ones. It does not seem that difficult. By any chance do you have the dimension on the one for the XL. Unless it is huge, it may be worth considering for my application. Obviously I am in the preliminary planning/investigation phase. I just know this will probably be easier now than later. And since I am trying it get the cash to buy my wings, I gotta do something productive on the project . As always, thanks. All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:33 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA Chris, Velocity has an external belly mounted NACA that they supply with the XL kits, I have one, and I will be using it for the radiator on my XLRG, it mounts externally to the belly, and forms the inlet by raising the surrounding area instead of lowering the skin, but the skin naturally diverts from the air stream there anyway, so I suppose it works OK,, I will have a radiator in the same place that you will, so I am going to install the belly scoop so I don't have to route all of that air from the top. and use the top 2 scoops for other cooling needs. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of CBarber Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 7:22 PM To: Reflector@Tvbf.Org Subject: REFLECTOR:Belly NACA As y'all may know, I plan to use a Mazda Rotary on my SE fixed gear. With the engine mount I already have, there is ample room to position a full size radiator under the engine mount angled facing forward. Unlike the duel NACA's that need to be split on top of the fuselage and go to each bank of cylinder heads for a Lyc/Frank/Cont, I should only need one air source to the radiator set up to provide adequate cooling. I have seen this done with a NACA scoop installed on the bottom of a Cozy but the under the engine set up on another Velo I saw had a "big ol' scoop hanging under the fuselage (which is not my preference). Do y'all see a problem with me doing this on my Velocity. I would appreciate the groups input as to problems I may encounter or reasons this may be a bone-head idea. My thoughts as to issues I need to address include: 1) Do NACA's work ok on the bottom of the plane? Yep, start with the basics. I have read contradictory views on NACA's use. Some seem to love them on their Velocity's, some don't. 2) I will need to cut out about 1.5 inches high, by 9-ish inches wide, hole from the bottom of the "gear bulkhead" to fit the NACA scoop. I would reinforce the missing material with some Triax. Should this reinforcement be enough? Thoughts? 3) I will need to raise "sump tank" about 1.5 - 2 inches since the NACA scoop will be where the sump sets. It seems easy enough to elevate the sump and rest it on the top of the NACA scoop once it is installed and create a solid pedestal for the sump to rest upon. Will the added height effect the gravity flow from the main tanks? The pictures I have seen seem to indicate this is a non issue as the main tank lines seem more than high enough to accommodate a slightly elevated sump tank....but photo's can be deceiving. 4) Of course, before I decided on using the rotary, I already installed my two top mounted NACA scoops on my SE. Does anyone have a use for them....such a supplemental/primary cooling of something such as accessories (alternator, potential turbocharger etc) or would I be better off closing them back up. Also, if they were closed up, would the airspeed be potentially increased. Also, I can't imagine a good way to duct the flow from the top NACA's around the pipes and engine to underneath the engine and mount to the bottom mounted radiator....thus necessitating this entire question. The radiators can be set up in different ways, it is just under the engine mount seems clearly the best. 5) Finally, I know I could just "build" the scoop into the bottom of the fuselage, but I am inclined to just buy a pre-molded scoop from Velocity, Inc. I know technically, there is a right NACA scoop and a left NACA scoop, but on the two that came with my kit, I can see VERY little difference. Anyway, the standard scoops are about 9 inches wide.....how wide are the scoops on the XL and would the larger XL scoop prove a better choice. Thanks for your input, considered opinions and time as to what I may be missing and/or other thoughts. All the best, Chris www.LoneStarVelocity.com Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 17:18:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:18:59 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Test Message-ID: <000601c3506c$f57213d0$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C35032.49133BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trying to figure out why I don't get copies of messages that I post. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C35032.49133BD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Trying to figure out why I don’t get copies = of messages that I post.

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C35032.49133BD0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 19:09:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:09:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History Message-ID: It's probably totally impractical but it'd certainly be interesting and useful if the major kit makers would each voluntarily submit an accounting of their planes flying, accident history (broken down to test flying, first 50 hours, and thereafter, etc.), severity of injury/fatalities, and damage to planes. Yes, some of the information is available on the NTSB but we want/need more information to understand what is happening, why it's happening and to whom. Statistical analysis is a wonderful thing and can be enlightening. This isn't about bashing one particular manufacturer or gaining a competitive edge over another kit builder; this is about saving hardware and lives. For that, competition can be set aside. I think Velocity's undertaking of Condition Inspections and Pilot Checkouts is an example of such analysis, even though it may have been anecdotal and informal. A systemic weakness was identified and steps were taken to correct. It's hard to quantify how many planes are in one piece and how many pilots are healthy because of the hardware and piloting defects that were detected and corrected. Everyone would benefit from a common depository of this information. If 2-place Lancairs are hot rods and have a high fatal accident rate, a depository would help Lancair identify and analyze the problem. Perhaps better pilot checkout in some aspect of the flight regime, that has been shown to be a problem, would help. Or perhaps Lancair could decline to recommend a power plant for this plane over a certain HP. Or even a particular power plant in a particular plane. Even if a particular problem applies to a different brand/model aircraft, we could all appreciate the shortcomings and avoid going there, either in building, testing or flying. That's what lessons-learned are all about. The Technical Advisor (TA) program is an example of an effort to disseminate information and experience more widely. A depository of kit accident histories would serve the same purpose for all of us. Of course, as these data get broken down into smaller and smaller subsets for study, we lose the macro view and the usefulness of statistical analysis degrades and subjective conjecture starts playing a greater part in drawing conclusions. Nonetheless, data that is statistically thin is still better than no data. The whole Experimental community, kit manufacturers, builders and pilots all have a lot of money and lives at risk. We can't afford to be on the front page of the local newspaper and the bad publicity that goes with it. The stakes are so high that even competitors should be able to agree to cooperate. Okay, now that that's settled, who's going to volunteer to gather and collate all the data? Chuck From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 19:02:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:02:51 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a101c3507b$823c1140$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> You! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 11:09 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History It's probably totally impractical but it'd certainly be interesting and useful if the major kit makers would each voluntarily submit an accounting of their planes flying, accident history (broken down to test flying, first 50 hours, and thereafter, etc.), severity of injury/fatalities, and damage to planes. Yes, some of the information is available on the NTSB but we want/need more information to understand what is happening, why it's happening and to whom. Statistical analysis is a wonderful thing and can be enlightening. This isn't about bashing one particular manufacturer or gaining a competitive edge over another kit builder; this is about saving hardware and lives. For that, competition can be set aside. I think Velocity's undertaking of Condition Inspections and Pilot Checkouts is an example of such analysis, even though it may have been anecdotal and informal. A systemic weakness was identified and steps were taken to correct. It's hard to quantify how many planes are in one piece and how many pilots are healthy because of the hardware and piloting defects that were detected and corrected. Everyone would benefit from a common depository of this information. If 2-place Lancairs are hot rods and have a high fatal accident rate, a depository would help Lancair identify and analyze the problem. Perhaps better pilot checkout in some aspect of the flight regime, that has been shown to be a problem, would help. Or perhaps Lancair could decline to recommend a power plant for this plane over a certain HP. Or even a particular power plant in a particular plane. Even if a particular problem applies to a different brand/model aircraft, we could all appreciate the shortcomings and avoid going there, either in building, testing or flying. That's what lessons-learned are all about. The Technical Advisor (TA) program is an example of an effort to disseminate information and experience more widely. A depository of kit accident histories would serve the same purpose for all of us. Of course, as these data get broken down into smaller and smaller subsets for study, we lose the macro view and the usefulness of statistical analysis degrades and subjective conjecture starts playing a greater part in drawing conclusions. Nonetheless, data that is statistically thin is still better than no data. The whole Experimental community, kit manufacturers, builders and pilots all have a lot of money and lives at risk. We can't afford to be on the front page of the local newspaper and the bad publicity that goes with it. The stakes are so high that even competitors should be able to agree to cooperate. Okay, now that that's settled, who's going to volunteer to gather and collate all the data? Chuck _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 19:03:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:03:25 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a201c3507b$8bf53bd0$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> You! Okay, now that that's settled, who's going to volunteer to gather and collate all the data? Chuck _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 19:09:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:09:00 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History References: Message-ID: <3F1D7DBC.20402@tnstaafl.net> Chuck Jensen wrote: > Okay, now that that's settled, who's going to volunteer to gather and > collate all the data? I thought you just did Chuck? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 19:16:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:16:24 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History Message-ID: I nominate Chuck Jensen... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 20:06:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:06:22 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History Message-ID: Scot and Phil, I'm so honored and appreciative of your nominating for this glorious position. However, your should know that I'm not as stupid as I sound or look. Accordingly, I must decline the honor as others are far more deserving. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:09 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Accident History Chuck Jensen wrote: > Okay, now that that's settled, who's going to volunteer to gather and > collate all the data? I thought you just did Chuck? Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 21:08:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocityxlfg) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:08:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History References: Message-ID: <015701c3508d$1026b990$9865fea9@tungsten.com> And so Humble ! I third the nomination. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Accident History > Scot and Phil, > > I'm so honored and appreciative of your nominating for this glorious > position. However, your should know that I'm not as stupid as I sound or > look. Accordingly, I must decline the honor as others are far more > deserving. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:09 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Accident History > > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > > > Okay, now that that's settled, who's going to volunteer to gather and > > collate all the data? > > I thought you just did Chuck? > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 22:58:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:My last word & pictures of my tip down exhaust system Message-ID: <20030722215854.44761.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1939942131-1058911134=:44095 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline Following are three pictures of my tip down exhaust system that does not burn the prop, blast off the paint, or incinerate persons standing the aircraft! It is on a Lycoming IO-360 200 HP engine in and picture 1 you will see that my 2 into 1 pipes are 9 1/4" from a Catto prop ans all I ever get is a light dust like haze on the prop. Picture 2 is a side picture and you can see that the pipe is basically straight back. Picture 3 shows the bottom of the pipe and the large oval hole that helps to mix the exhaust with air. The pipes are completely behind the standard exhaust fairings so no drag and by cutting the fairings tube like structure off at an angle it is very easy to put the lower cowl on. Jim ===== James F. 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UfQVYF7PbyhVfKoSMEdR6VFMNk5ZOO49qVgbuNuYTDKIzywHOKiDMjZHBFKZ GaTcTz606cZlY+vNAi3FLuA9alzVN/3JjI53IDzVgH+VMadyXOKA1M7UDrQB /9k= --0-1939942131-1058911134=:44095-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 02:14:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:14:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts References: Message-ID: <001b01c350b7$ba103f10$0300a8c0@DAD> Chuck, Your first paragraph implies that the major kit makers have the information, and are failing to "voluntarily submit" it to the public. I can tell you that Velocity is lucky when a builder shares any information with the factory regarding such matters. That data that comes into the factory following accidents and incidents is no different, and no more complete than what is reported in the NTSB report. The factory is rarely consulted nor does it have first hand knowledge of the majority of Velocity accidents - and therefore isn't in a position to judge what happened or why. There are times when Velocity staff members are privy to accidents - and we have a pretty good idea as to what and why. But the legal world being what it is - we are not going to stick our necks out to point any fingers of blame - especially when the builder or the pilot has an opposite opinion. There are times (too many) when Mike Snyder (chief A&P; IA at Velocity) comes into the lunch room visibly shaken at the poor condition of some of the aircraft that come to the Service Center for inspection - yet every builder is convinced that their Velocity is a masterpiece of workmanship and engineering. This is why Velocity is pushing for more detailed and professional inspections of the aircraft. There are many reasons why aircraft have accidents - and the aircraft's mechanical systems is just one ingredient to the stew. Pilot proficiency, pilot experience, pilot decision making, winds and other weather factors, fuel contamination, fuel exhaustion, not closing or locking the door, forgetting to put the landing gear down, hard landings, flying outside of the recommended cg or weight limitations of the aircraft, fluid leaks, blocked fuel vent lines, and the list (unfortunately and tragically) goes on and on. This list, by the way is not based on theory. In my time with Velocity I can recall of an actual Velocity accident or incident that was caused by each and every one of these factors. Fly safe; build safe; manage risks. Best regards, Scott B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:09 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History > It's probably totally impractical but it'd certainly be interesting and > useful if the major kit makers would each voluntarily submit an accounting > of their planes flying, accident history (broken down to test flying, first > 50 hours, and thereafter, etc.), severity of injury/fatalities, and damage > to planes. Yes, some of the information is available on the NTSB but we > want/need more information to understand what is happening, why it's > happening and to whom. > > Statistical analysis is a wonderful thing and can be enlightening. This > isn't about bashing one particular manufacturer or gaining a competitive > edge over another kit builder; this is about saving hardware and lives. For > that, competition can be set aside. > > I think Velocity's undertaking of Condition Inspections and Pilot Checkouts > is an example of such analysis, even though it may have been anecdotal and > informal. A systemic weakness was identified and steps were taken to > correct. It's hard to quantify how many planes are in one piece and how > many pilots are healthy because of the hardware and piloting defects that > were detected and corrected. > > Everyone would benefit from a common depository of this information. From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 14:24:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:24:07 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts Message-ID: Scott, Your point is well taken, especially about legal liability. Sometimes, it's best to not know, and do nothing than attempt to be informed and take steps to improve a situation. That would result in a blood-sucking lawyer (yes, Chris, some of your buddies are less than admirable creatures) pointing out that "you knew about the problem, yet failed to take effective action." And, the reason they know the action was "ineffective" was because it didn't prevent the accident, even though the pilot himself violated every common sense rule known to man. It's always someone else's fault. However, that same situation supports the notion of an independent third party gathering and analyzing the information. As such, any conclusion would just be an expression of opinion. Oddly, the less expert the party, the better. Then, if they are every called as an expert witness, they can demur that "this is just a hobby, it's interesting but nothing more." There's no point in handing a lawyer a "nuclear weapon" by using the third party as an expert. Of course, it's even possible the gathered facts could be an equally effective defense. So, while there always remains a slight litigious risk, the idea that pain and planes can be saved would certainly seem to argue for taking on that risk. The problem with quality of workmanship is interesting. It's easy to see why non-builders fall into the trap of the "10' inspection." Stand back 10' look at 'er, and if she looks good (which Velocities always do), then she must be built good! NOT. I'm unsure of what a builder's excuse is for a plane the quality of a 1980s American built car, another words, looks good, piece of junk. As a kid, we built go-karts that way. I'm not sure that anyone should want something that goes 2 miles high and 4 times as fast as the speed limit to be constructed that way, yet it happens. Since no one would do that on purpose, we can only attribute it to ignorance. Fortunately, ignorance can be cured by education. Stupidity goes all the way to the bone and lasts forever. So, yes, Scott, I think the factory is onto the right idea in encouraging Condition Inspections, access to workshop for builders and pilot checkouts. However, one gap that I think exists that could still be plugged is pilot training, not just a check out. New pilots, be they buyers or builders nearing completion, are often desperately hungry for flying time and, more specifically, flying time in a Velocity. I know many plane owners tend to be cheap. They'll spend $100K, $150K, even $200K and years building a plane, then carp about the need to spend a couple thousand dollars for a conditional inspection and quality time in a good Velocity with a good instructor. Like the Factory does for builders, set out a few trailers for them to stay cheap while they're getting in their hours (by the way, if you need any extra trailers, give a ring, Tennessee has plenty). A second gap, that falls in the area of education, would be a video that highlights BC (Builder's Crap), similar to the VVNews section. But for the video, the crap can be referred to as mistakes and misunderstandings. That way, the feelings of us ignorant bastards won't be hurt. Remember, even when you're savings someone's life, you have to be kind and gentle. By the way, don't worry about the stupid ones. They won't be around to bother any one for long anyhow. Well, I must go now as my legs are cramping up so I will step down off this Ivory box. Chuck N27GV Isn't this amazing. People will read rants like this and I don't even have to pay 'em. Is this a great country or what!! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Baker Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:14 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts Chuck, Your first paragraph implies that the major kit makers have the information, and are failing to "voluntarily submit" it to the public. I can tell you that Velocity is lucky when a builder shares any information with the factory regarding such matters. That data that comes into the factory following accidents and incidents is no different, and no more complete than what is reported in the NTSB report. The factory is rarely consulted nor does it have first hand knowledge of the majority of Velocity accidents - and therefore isn't in a position to judge what happened or why. There are times when Velocity staff members are privy to accidents - and we have a pretty good idea as to what and why. But the legal world being what it is - we are not going to stick our necks out to point any fingers of blame - especially when the builder or the pilot has an opposite opinion. There are times (too many) when Mike Snyder (chief A&P; IA at Velocity) comes into the lunch room visibly shaken at the poor condition of some of the aircraft that come to the Service Center for inspection - yet every builder is convinced that their Velocity is a masterpiece of workmanship and engineering. This is why Velocity is pushing for more detailed and professional inspections of the aircraft. There are many reasons why aircraft have accidents - and the aircraft's mechanical systems is just one ingredient to the stew. Pilot proficiency, pilot experience, pilot decision making, winds and other weather factors, fuel contamination, fuel exhaustion, not closing or locking the door, forgetting to put the landing gear down, hard landings, flying outside of the recommended cg or weight limitations of the aircraft, fluid leaks, blocked fuel vent lines, and the list (unfortunately and tragically) goes on and on. This list, by the way is not based on theory. In my time with Velocity I can recall of an actual Velocity accident or incident that was caused by each and every one of these factors. Fly safe; build safe; manage risks. Best regards, Scott B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:09 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History > It's probably totally impractical but it'd certainly be interesting and > useful if the major kit makers would each voluntarily submit an accounting > of their planes flying, accident history (broken down to test flying, first > 50 hours, and thereafter, etc.), severity of injury/fatalities, and damage > to planes. Yes, some of the information is available on the NTSB but we > want/need more information to understand what is happening, why it's > happening and to whom. > > Statistical analysis is a wonderful thing and can be enlightening. This > isn't about bashing one particular manufacturer or gaining a competitive > edge over another kit builder; this is about saving hardware and lives. For > that, competition can be set aside. > > I think Velocity's undertaking of Condition Inspections and Pilot Checkouts > is an example of such analysis, even though it may have been anecdotal and > informal. A systemic weakness was identified and steps were taken to > correct. It's hard to quantify how many planes are in one piece and how > many pilots are healthy because of the hardware and piloting defects that > were detected and corrected. > > Everyone would benefit from a common depository of this information. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 14:33:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:33:34 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts References: Message-ID: <002c01c3511f$0463ef00$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I agree that we need to take the factory checkouts seriously and use them whenever we can. However for those of us who don't live near the factory, here's a couple of suggestions: Excellent sources of assistance are EAA's Technical Counselor and Flight Advisor programs. I used three different TC's and a FA and found them very helpful. It always helps to have another set of eyes looking at our "perfect craftsmanship". And if you have fellow Velocity builder/owners nearby, by all means get them involved in the inspection process. See ya at Oshkosh! Ronnie Brown Cornelius, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:24 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts | Scott, | | Your point is well taken, especially about legal liability. Sometimes, it's | best to not know, and do nothing than attempt to be informed and take steps | to improve a situation. That would result in a blood-sucking lawyer (yes, | Chris, some of your buddies are less than admirable creatures) pointing out | that "you knew about the problem, yet failed to take effective action." | And, the reason they know the action was "ineffective" was because it didn't | prevent the accident, even though the pilot himself violated every common | sense rule known to man. It's always someone else's fault. | | However, that same situation supports the notion of an independent third | party gathering and analyzing the information. As such, any conclusion | would just be an expression of opinion. Oddly, the less expert the party, | the better. Then, if they are every called as an expert witness, they can | demur that "this is just a hobby, it's interesting but nothing more." | There's no point in handing a lawyer a "nuclear weapon" by using the third | party as an expert. Of course, it's even possible the gathered facts could | be an equally effective defense. | | So, while there always remains a slight litigious risk, the idea that pain | and planes can be saved would certainly seem to argue for taking on that | risk. | | The problem with quality of workmanship is interesting. It's easy to see | why non-builders fall into the trap of the "10' inspection." Stand back 10' | look at 'er, and if she looks good (which Velocities always do), then she | must be built good! NOT. | | I'm unsure of what a builder's excuse is for a plane the quality of a 1980s | American built car, another words, looks good, piece of junk. As a kid, we | built go-karts that way. I'm not sure that anyone should want something | that goes 2 miles high and 4 times as fast as the speed limit to be | constructed that way, yet it happens. Since no one would do that on | purpose, we can only attribute it to ignorance. Fortunately, ignorance can | be cured by education. Stupidity goes all the way to the bone and lasts | forever. | | So, yes, Scott, I think the factory is onto the right idea in encouraging | Condition Inspections, access to workshop for builders and pilot checkouts. | However, one gap that I think exists that could still be plugged is pilot | training, not just a check out. New pilots, be they buyers or builders | nearing completion, are often desperately hungry for flying time and, more | specifically, flying time in a Velocity. | | I know many plane owners tend to be cheap. They'll spend $100K, $150K, even | $200K and years building a plane, then carp about the need to spend a couple | thousand dollars for a conditional inspection and quality time in a good | Velocity with a good instructor. Like the Factory does for builders, set | out a few trailers for them to stay cheap while they're getting in their | hours (by the way, if you need any extra trailers, give a ring, Tennessee | has plenty). | | A second gap, that falls in the area of education, would be a video that | highlights BC (Builder's Crap), similar to the VVNews section. But for the | video, the crap can be referred to as mistakes and misunderstandings. That | way, the feelings of us ignorant bastards won't be hurt. Remember, even | when you're savings someone's life, you have to be kind and gentle. | | By the way, don't worry about the stupid ones. They won't be around to | bother any one for long anyhow. | | Well, I must go now as my legs are cramping up so I will step down off this | Ivory box. | | Chuck | N27GV | | Isn't this amazing. People will read rants like this and I don't even have | to pay 'em. Is this a great country or what!! | | -----Original Message----- | From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On | Behalf Of Scott Baker | Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:14 PM | To: reflector@tvbf.org | Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts | | | Chuck, | Your first paragraph implies that the major kit makers have the information, | and are failing to "voluntarily submit" it to the public. I can tell you | that Velocity is lucky when a builder shares any information with the | factory regarding such matters. That data that comes into the factory | following accidents and incidents is no different, and no more complete than | what is reported in the NTSB report. The factory is rarely consulted nor | does it have first hand knowledge of the majority of Velocity accidents - | and therefore isn't in a position to judge what happened or why. | There are times when Velocity staff members are privy to accidents - and we | have a pretty good idea as to what and why. But the legal world being what | it is - we are not going to stick our necks out to point any fingers of | blame - especially when the builder or the pilot has an opposite opinion. | There are times (too many) when Mike Snyder (chief A&P; IA at Velocity) | comes into the lunch room visibly shaken at the poor condition of some of | the aircraft that come to the Service Center for inspection - yet every | builder is convinced that their Velocity is a masterpiece of workmanship and | engineering. This is why Velocity is pushing for more detailed and | professional inspections of the aircraft. | There are many reasons why aircraft have accidents - and the aircraft's | mechanical systems is just one ingredient to the stew. Pilot proficiency, | pilot experience, pilot decision making, winds and other weather factors, | fuel contamination, fuel exhaustion, not closing or locking the door, | forgetting to put the landing gear down, hard landings, flying outside of | the recommended cg or weight limitations of the aircraft, fluid leaks, | blocked fuel vent lines, and the list (unfortunately and tragically) goes on | and on. This list, by the way is not based on theory. In my time with | Velocity I can recall of an actual Velocity accident or incident that was | caused by each and every one of these factors. | Fly safe; build safe; manage risks. | Best regards, | Scott B | | | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Chuck Jensen" | To: | Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:09 PM | Subject: REFLECTOR:Accident History | | | > It's probably totally impractical but it'd certainly be interesting and | > useful if the major kit makers would each voluntarily submit an accounting | > of their planes flying, accident history (broken down to test flying, | first | > 50 hours, and thereafter, etc.), severity of injury/fatalities, and damage | > to planes. Yes, some of the information is available on the NTSB but we | > want/need more information to understand what is happening, why it's | > happening and to whom. | > | > Statistical analysis is a wonderful thing and can be enlightening. This | > isn't about bashing one particular manufacturer or gaining a competitive | > edge over another kit builder; this is about saving hardware and lives. | For | > that, competition can be set aside. | > | > I think Velocity's undertaking of Condition Inspections and Pilot | Checkouts | > is an example of such analysis, even though it may have been anecdotal and | > informal. A systemic weakness was identified and steps were taken to | > correct. It's hard to quantify how many planes are in one piece and how | > many pilots are healthy because of the hardware and piloting defects that | > were detected and corrected. | > | > Everyone would benefit from a common depository of this information. | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit | http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 14:53:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Simon Aegerter) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:53:51 +0200 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts In-Reply-To: <001b01c350b7$ba103f10$0300a8c0@DAD> References: <001b01c350b7$ba103f10$0300a8c0@DAD> Message-ID: Scott: Your points are well taken and I agree with or at least understand most of your arguments. However, I have to take issue with the following statement: >That data that comes into the factory >following accidents and incidents is no different, and no more complete than >what is reported in the NTSB report. I have in my collection of Velocity accidents and incidents 48 items of which only 35 ever made it to the NTSB files. The other 13 either happened abroad or escaped the NTSB's attention. Yet I am certain that the factory is aware of all of them and then some. In fact, I have the information about some of them from you people. In conversations with the Swings I am often impressed by the amount of detailed knowledge about the chain of events that led to an accident and that went far beyond the published NTSB report. Besides, I think the factory would do a lousy job of safety analysis if they were to limit themselves to reading the NTSP reports. Obviously and rightfully, they don't. Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 15:35:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:35:29 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... Message-ID: For those who want to know about the engine/kit: IO-360 A3B6D out of a 1978 Mooney Overhauled in 1986 (0-time factory) has (according to logs) 1738 hours TT (262 to TB0) AD complied with until May 11 of 2000 (have log book). Engine install kit has: stainless exhaust, engine mount, oil and gas lines with fire sleeves, sleeves, fuel pump, baffles, fiberfrax for firewall, servo mount just to name a few. The kit was purchased in 2001 when I bought the engine. $10,400 (inc shipping) for the engine and just over $2000 for the engine install kit (IO-360). -Don _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 15:52:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:52:23 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... References: Message-ID: <3F1EA127.60506@tnstaafl.net> I didn't realize a run out IO360 was worth so much? Scott Donald Hamm wrote: > For those who want to know about the engine/kit: > > IO-360 A3B6D out of a 1978 Mooney Overhauled in 1986 (0-time factory) > has (according to logs) 1738 hours TT (262 to TB0) > > AD complied with until May 11 of 2000 (have log book). > > Engine install kit has: > > stainless exhaust, engine mount, oil and gas lines with fire sleeves, > sleeves, fuel pump, baffles, fiberfrax for firewall, servo mount just to > name a few. The kit was purchased in 2001 when I bought the engine. > > $10,400 (inc shipping) for the engine and just over $2000 for the engine > install kit (IO-360). > > -Don > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 17:03:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:03:09 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FYI Pics Message-ID: <000001c35133$ec6882c0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3510A.03927AC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3510A.03927AC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3510A.03927AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear builders, Just wanted to share and motivate. Pictures of completed Velocity. See you at Oshkosh. EAA Centennial Homebuilts http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/list/100.asp And http://home.jam.rr.com/rrogersjr/eaa/ Rene' Dugas ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3510A.03927AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear builders,

Just wanted to share and motivate. = Pictures of completed Velocity.

See you at Oshkosh.

EAA Centennial Homebuilts

http://www.eaa.org/= homebuilders/list/100.asp

And

http://home.jam.rr.com/rro= gersjr/eaa/

Rene’ Dugas

------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3510A.03927AC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3510A.03927AC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhKAAeAPcAAJkAM/8zZswAM/8AM/+ZmcwzZv/M/8xmmZkzZmYAM8wzmf+ZzP9mzP+Z//9m mcwAZv8AZv8zmf8Amf8zzP8AzP9m//8z//9QUNYAk5kAZsxmzMwzzMyZ/8xm/8wz/5kzmcwAzMwA /5kAzJkAmcyZzJlmmWYzZmYAmZkzzGYAZpkA/5kz/5lmzDMAM2YzmWYzzGYAzJlm/zMAZmYA/2Yz /8zM/5mZ/5mZzGZmzGZm/2ZmmTMzZjMzmTMAmTMAzDMAzDMz/zMzzABm/wAzzDNm/zNmzAAAZgAA MwAA/wAAmQAzzAAAzDNmmQBmzJnM/2aZ/wAzZmaZzABmmTOZzACZzGbM/zOZ/wAzmQCZ/zPM/wDM /5n//2b//wAzMwD//wDMzACZmWaZmZnMzMz//zPMzGbMzDOZmTNmZgBmZgAzMwD/zDP/zDPMmQDM mWb/zJn/zAD/mTOZZgBmMzNmM2aZZmbMZpn/mWb/ZjOZM5nMmWb/mTP/mTPMZgDMZmbMmQCZZgCZ MzP/ZgD/Zsz/zMz/mZn/Zpn/MwDMMzP/MwDMMzPMMzPMM2b/M2bMMwBmAAAzAACZADPMAGb/AJn/ AGbMAADMADPMADOZAJnMZmaZM5nMMzNmAGaZAJnMAMz/Zsz/M8z/AJmZAMzMAMzMMzMzAGZmAJmZ M8zMZmZmM5mZZszMmf//zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/MAP/MZv/MM8yZM5lmAMyZAP+ZAMxmAJkzAMxm M2YzAP+ZZv9mM/+ZM/9mAMwzAJlmMzMAAGYzM5lmZsyZmZkzM8xmZv/MzP8zM8wzM/9mZmYAAJkA AMwAAP8AAP8zAMyZZv/MmczMzJmZmWZmZjMzMwAAAP///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAeAAAI/wCvrVp1 TWBBgQQHCqxxUOGqYwQNSjMYkWHBY9cmHjyoMWPBVR1rJNzIEWFBaREHohwocqBLkyATKpT4kmJE jwY/TnQp0+VKhi9RIkxJ8mNDkEUtflylFGNBoEYpaoQYNePNkQ0PijTZkaDThhOhbtXINKfXoicJ MuxI9ulRnEs9zpQYtSJapCSRKp1Lsm1bp3uNkiUotKzAnX1PPsXL1ihUrCuHxuRpdqhkhyot28UZ cWfLa1spiiW51utNnURTYn2bNu/UtVkNhu688GLqokTpqj7MGqJauTmVVi3a0aRbtBuF4my5kulu mMpnEq4pU6f12g6jx7Q53XjOvKxJJ3A3/FDrNaqpp+a2mvXqza0KJyL+qhi07LxQv9t3bx9u1L3F XceeYCMpl19sef1Wl35tZeVUV4IZV9hj+nEGXH2clTVSZ5iphFllL/HU4VLVCXeeYoaZFJpjHhVH W4YWbcfeVbwheB1fNi2YI3XmURQQADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3510A.03927AC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 19:00:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:00:55 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts Message-ID: Simon, you make an good point about access to information. This is why the information needs to be solicited directly from the kit builder. The "stuff" in an NTSB is pretty thin gruel, much of which is written in pale bureaucratezes. Now that you point it out, I agree that Scott's demurral that Velocity just knows what they read in the NTSB, is, well, humorous but understandable. I'm sure they would like to know more, much more, but they also suffer from the lack of a centralized repository of information. This lack of information makes assessing areas where Velocity could better serve its customers and pilots more difficult. Without a doubt, all the kit companies suffer from the same information shortcomings. I'll bet the kit companies would be pretty forthcoming with information and welcome additional information that would fill out gaps in their knowledge if they knew the information wouldn't be used by others to bludgeon them competitively. Perhaps they could enter into a "gentlemen's agreement." I would think Velocity would have no difficulties entering into such an agreement since they seem to be well populated by gentlemen (and gentlewomen). Surely some one else could say the same for other kit manufacturers, no? Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Simon Aegerter Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:54 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts Scott: Your points are well taken and I agree with or at least understand most of your arguments. However, I have to take issue with the following statement: >That data that comes into the factory >following accidents and incidents is no different, and no more complete than >what is reported in the NTSB report. I have in my collection of Velocity accidents and incidents 48 items of which only 35 ever made it to the NTSB files. The other 13 either happened abroad or escaped the NTSB's attention. Yet I am certain that the factory is aware of all of them and then some. In fact, I have the information about some of them from you people. In conversations with the Swings I am often impressed by the amount of detailed knowledge about the chain of events that led to an accident and that went far beyond the published NTSB report. Besides, I think the factory would do a lousy job of safety analysis if they were to limit themselves to reading the NTSP reports. Obviously and rightfully, they don't. Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 20:27:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:27:34 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Test Message-ID: <000e01c35150$78059090$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35115.CBA6B890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Test ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35115.CBA6B890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Test

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35115.CBA6B890-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 21:12:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:12:50 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Test References: <000e01c35150$78059090$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <006d01c35156$cb108280$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C35135.43928C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Worked! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: reflector=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:27 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Test Test ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C35135.43928C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Worked!

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
To: reflector

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 3:27=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Test

Test
------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C35135.43928C20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 21:15:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:15:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts References: Message-ID: <007301c35157$22798620$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> >I'll bet the kit companies would be pretty forthcoming with information and >welcome additional information that would fill out gaps in their knowledge >if they knew the information wouldn't be used by others to bludgeon them >competitively. But this is not nearly the problem that the ambulance chasers pose!!!! From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 23:20:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:20:51 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: <000001c35168$afe1df10$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3513E.C70BD710 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3513E.C70BD710" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3513E.C70BD710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My Esteemed Colleagues(Experimenters), My low fuel light mounted on the panel attacked to the left upper sump mounted switch comes on in flashes on almost every flight. It never stays on but flashes on in smooth air at cruise mostly but not always over 170 kts. My vent exits the bottom just upstream from the sump and sticks out 1.5 inches with a small bevel to the front and 1/8th inch vent holes x 4 on the draft side. My tanks all connect to a single manifold then exit as per plans out of the belly. I have tested my tank caps and find no leak. I have disassembled the caps and lubricated the two =93o=94 rings. I have extended the vent tube further into the lower slip stream from =BD inch to 1.5 inches with no change. The light has never come on at high fuel flows at low speeds. Usually occurs at lean cruise around 13 to 13.5 gal/hr. IO 540. Engine never falters. Fuel pressure occasionally drops below 16 PSI and the Vision system activates the warning for a single two second cycle the pressure is restored to about 21 psi. =20 Ideas? Thanks, Rene=92 N129RD XL RG ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3513E.C70BD710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My Esteemed = Colleagues(Experimenters),

My low fuel light mounted on the panel = attacked to the left upper sump mounted switch comes on in flashes on almost every = flight.=A0 It never stays on but flashes on in smooth air at cruise mostly but = not always over 170 kts.=A0 My vent exits the bottom just upstream from the = sump and sticks out 1.5 inches with a small bevel to the front and = 1/8^th inch vent holes x 4 on the draft side.=A0 My tanks all connect to a single = manifold then exit as per plans out of the belly.=A0 I have tested my tank caps = and find no leak.=A0 I have disassembled the caps and lubricated the two = “o” rings.=A0 I have extended the vent tube further into the lower slip = stream from =BD inch to 1.5 inches with no change.=A0 The light has never come on at = high fuel flows at low speeds.=A0 Usually occurs at lean cruise around 13 to 13.5 = gal/hr.=A0 IO 540.=A0 Engine never falters.=A0 Fuel pressure occasionally drops below = 16 PSI and the Vision system activates the warning for a single two second cycle = the pressure is restored to about 21 psi.=A0

Ideas?

Thanks,

Rene’

N129RD

XL RG

------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3513E.C70BD710-- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3513E.C70BD710 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhKAAeAPcAAJkAM/8zZswAM/8AM/+ZmcwzZv/M/8xmmZkzZmYAM8wzmf+ZzP9mzP+Z//9m mcwAZv8AZv8zmf8Amf8zzP8AzP9m//8z//9QUNYAk5kAZsxmzMwzzMyZ/8xm/8wz/5kzmcwAzMwA /5kAzJkAmcyZzJlmmWYzZmYAmZkzzGYAZpkA/5kz/5lmzDMAM2YzmWYzzGYAzJlm/zMAZmYA/2Yz /8zM/5mZ/5mZzGZmzGZm/2ZmmTMzZjMzmTMAmTMAzDMAzDMz/zMzzABm/wAzzDNm/zNmzAAAZgAA MwAA/wAAmQAzzAAAzDNmmQBmzJnM/2aZ/wAzZmaZzABmmTOZzACZzGbM/zOZ/wAzmQCZ/zPM/wDM /5n//2b//wAzMwD//wDMzACZmWaZmZnMzMz//zPMzGbMzDOZmTNmZgBmZgAzMwD/zDP/zDPMmQDM mWb/zJn/zAD/mTOZZgBmMzNmM2aZZmbMZpn/mWb/ZjOZM5nMmWb/mTP/mTPMZgDMZmbMmQCZZgCZ MzP/ZgD/Zsz/zMz/mZn/Zpn/MwDMMzP/MwDMMzPMMzPMM2b/M2bMMwBmAAAzAACZADPMAGb/AJn/ AGbMAADMADPMADOZAJnMZmaZM5nMMzNmAGaZAJnMAMz/Zsz/M8z/AJmZAMzMAMzMMzMzAGZmAJmZ M8zMZmZmM5mZZszMmf//zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/MAP/MZv/MM8yZM5lmAMyZAP+ZAMxmAJkzAMxm M2YzAP+ZZv9mM/+ZM/9mAMwzAJlmMzMAAGYzM5lmZsyZmZkzM8xmZv/MzP8zM8wzM/9mZmYAAJkA AMwAAP8AAP8zAMyZZv/MmczMzJmZmWZmZjMzMwAAAP///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAeAAAI/wCvrVp1 TWBBgQQHCqxxUOGqYwQNSjMYkWHBY9cmHjyoMWPBVR1rJNzIEWFBaREHohwocqBLkyATKpT4kmJE jwY/TnQp0+VKhi9RIkxJ8mNDkEUtflylFGNBoEYpaoQYNePNkQ0PijTZkaDThhOhbtXINKfXoicJ MuxI9ulRnEs9zpQYtSJapCSRKp1Lsm1bp3uNkiUotKzAnX1PPsXL1ihUrCuHxuRpdqhkhyot28UZ cWfLa1spiiW51utNnURTYn2bNu/UtVkNhu688GLqokTpqj7MGqJauTmVVi3a0aRbtBuF4my5kulu mMpnEq4pU6f12g6jx7Q53XjOvKxJJ3A3/FDrNaqpp+a2mvXqza0KJyL+qhi07LxQv9t3bx9u1L3F XceeYCMpl19sef1Wl35tZeVUV4IZV9hj+nEGXH2clTVSZ5iphFllL/HU4VLVCXeeYoaZFJpjHhVH W4YWbcfeVbwheB1fNi2YI3XmURQQADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3513E.C70BD710-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 23 23:34:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:34:51 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <000001c35168$afe1df10$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> References: <000001c35168$afe1df10$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Message-ID: --============_-1153122800==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to install it. Jack N55XL --============_-1153122800==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Rene'

I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to install it.

Jack

N55XL
--============_-1153122800==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 00:00:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:00:34 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35144.50610F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don't see how. Thanks Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to install it. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35144.50610F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Thanks Jack,

I felt that maybe the boundary = layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the tanks. = I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them at high = pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the = informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold = I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two = engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are = common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He = air might be in the line but I don’t see how. Thanks =

Rene’

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Jack Sheehan
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:35 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene'

I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I = have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut = off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light = durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the = nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to = flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have = spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine = and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming = pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. = They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in = theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install it.

Jack

N55XL

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35144.50610F30-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 00:02:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:02:01 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... Message-ID: 200 + hrs till tbo but yes, 2 years ago that's what it went for. I have the bill to prove it too... I found none @ the time for less. The more hours, the more $$$. Still $8000 for engine and install kit is a deal... -Don _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 00:25:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:25:11 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... References: Message-ID: <3F1F1957.40407@tnstaafl.net> Oh, From your previous message it looked like you were asking $12,400 for both, not $8000 for both. $8000 sounds like a great deal. Scott Donald Hamm wrote: > 200 + hrs till tbo but yes, 2 years ago that's what it went for. I have > the bill to prove it too... > > I found none @ the time for less. The more hours, the more $$$. > Still $8000 for engine and install kit is a deal... > > -Don > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 00:53:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:53:03 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FYI Pics In-Reply-To: <000001c35133$ec6882c0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C3514B.A5872380 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C3514B.A5872380" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C3514B.A5872380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I didn't know you were in Monroe, LA. I do a bit of contracting work down the road in Ruston. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Rene Dugas Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:03 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:FYI Pics Dear builders, Just wanted to share and motivate. Pictures of completed Velocity. See you at Oshkosh. EAA Centennial Homebuilts http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/list/100.asp And http://home.jam.rr.com/rrogersjr/eaa/ Rene� Dugas ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C3514B.A5872380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 didn't know you were in Monroe, LA. I do a bit of contracting work = down=20 the road in Ruston.

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Rene=20 Dugas
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:03 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:FYI = Pics

Dear builders,

Just wanted to share and motivate. = Pictures of=20 completed Velocity.

See you at Oshkosh.

EAA Centennial Homebuilts

http://www.eaa.org/= homebuilders/list/100.asp

And

http://home.jam.rr.com/rro= gersjr/eaa/

Rene’=20 Dugas
------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C3514B.A5872380-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C3514B.A5872380 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <330185223@23072003-11e5> R0lGODlhKAAeAPcAAJkAM/8zZswAM/8AM/+ZmcwzZv/M/8xmmZkzZmYAM8wzmf+ZzP9mzP+Z//9m mcwAZv8AZv8zmf8Amf8zzP8AzP9m//8z//9QUNYAk5kAZsxmzMwzzMyZ/8xm/8wz/5kzmcwAzMwA /5kAzJkAmcyZzJlmmWYzZmYAmZkzzGYAZpkA/5kz/5lmzDMAM2YzmWYzzGYAzJlm/zMAZmYA/2Yz /8zM/5mZ/5mZzGZmzGZm/2ZmmTMzZjMzmTMAmTMAzDMAzDMz/zMzzABm/wAzzDNm/zNmzAAAZgAA MwAA/wAAmQAzzAAAzDNmmQBmzJnM/2aZ/wAzZmaZzABmmTOZzACZzGbM/zOZ/wAzmQCZ/zPM/wDM /5n//2b//wAzMwD//wDMzACZmWaZmZnMzMz//zPMzGbMzDOZmTNmZgBmZgAzMwD/zDP/zDPMmQDM mWb/zJn/zAD/mTOZZgBmMzNmM2aZZmbMZpn/mWb/ZjOZM5nMmWb/mTP/mTPMZgDMZmbMmQCZZgCZ MzP/ZgD/Zsz/zMz/mZn/Zpn/MwDMMzP/MwDMMzPMMzPMM2b/M2bMMwBmAAAzAACZADPMAGb/AJn/ AGbMAADMADPMADOZAJnMZmaZM5nMMzNmAGaZAJnMAMz/Zsz/M8z/AJmZAMzMAMzMMzMzAGZmAJmZ M8zMZmZmM5mZZszMmf//zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/MAP/MZv/MM8yZM5lmAMyZAP+ZAMxmAJkzAMxm M2YzAP+ZZv9mM/+ZM/9mAMwzAJlmMzMAAGYzM5lmZsyZmZkzM8xmZv/MzP8zM8wzM/9mZmYAAJkA AMwAAP8AAP8zAMyZZv/MmczMzJmZmWZmZjMzMwAAAP///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAeAAAI/wCvrVp1 TWBBgQQHCqxxUOGqYwQNSjMYkWHBY9cmHjyoMWPBVR1rJNzIEWFBaREHohwocqBLkyATKpT4kmJE jwY/TnQp0+VKhi9RIkxJ8mNDkEUtflylFGNBoEYpaoQYNePNkQ0PijTZkaDThhOhbtXINKfXoicJ MuxI9ulRnEs9zpQYtSJapCSRKp1Lsm1bp3uNkiUotKzAnX1PPsXL1ihUrCuHxuRpdqhkhyot28UZ cWfLa1spiiW51utNnURTYn2bNu/UtVkNhu688GLqokTpqj7MGqJauTmVVi3a0aRbtBuF4my5kulu mMpnEq4pU6f12g6jx7Q53XjOvKxJJ3A3/FDrNaqpp+a2mvXqza0KJyL+qhi07LxQv9t3bx9u1L3F XceeYCMpl19sef1Wl35tZeVUV4IZV9hj+nEGXH2clTVSZ5iphFllL/HU4VLVCXeeYoaZFJpjHhVH W4YWbcfeVbwheB1fNi2YI3XmURQQADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C3514B.A5872380-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 01:30:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:30:04 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts References: Message-ID: <001e01c3517a$bb8177b0$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Given that Velocity Aircraft is a US based company they are, unfortunately, subject to US law and (sorry Chris) US lawyers so liability is clearly an issue they and ourselves need to be sensitive to. It doesn't help any of us if they get hit with some major judgment against them just because they happened to be the deepest pockets around and go belly up as a result. I don't know about everyone else but I subscribe to numerous flying mags and assiduously read the incident reports, often shaking my head and thinking "what was (s)he thinking of" and occasionally thinking I could have easily done that. It's through these that I learn from other people's experiences. The "stupid builder tricks" in VV is always helpful - although the commentary could be toned down a little - and a factual recitation or defense by the builder might also be illuminating. I don't believe that anyone installs anything badly deliberately and it would be helpful to learn about the chain of events or piece of missing information that led up to the situation discovered during the Condition Inspection. Like many, or most, of you I'm trying to build a safe reliable airplane, I've never done it before and I'll probably never do it again. I take as much care as I can but there's always going to be something that I was completely unaware of that may trip me up hence the "second pair of eyes" approach. Those of you in the US may subscribe to the FAA ASRS program, pilots can report their own "stupid tricks" and because they shared their experiences voluntarily are spared any FAA enforcement action that may ensue - unless they did something illegal or knowingly. Would it be possible for us to use an anonymous posting service so that builders can share their "stupid tricks" or lessons learned with the rest of us. I'm thinking maybe tvbf.org might be a suitable repository. Tony SEFG Nose Gear install From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 01:41:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:41:00 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts References: <001e01c3517a$bb8177b0$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Message-ID: <002301c3517c$4179c600$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I think that is a GREAT idea - an anonymous list in tvbf.org where folks could post their errors/oversights and lessons learned!!! I've got a couple I would like to share! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Babb" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:30 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts | Given that Velocity Aircraft is a US based company they are, unfortunately, | subject to US law and (sorry Chris) US lawyers so liability is clearly an | issue they and ourselves need to be sensitive to. It doesn't help any of us | if they get hit with some major judgment against them just because they | happened to be the deepest pockets around and go belly up as a result. | | I don't know about everyone else but I subscribe to numerous flying mags and | assiduously read the incident reports, often shaking my head and thinking | "what was (s)he thinking of" and occasionally thinking I could have easily | done that. It's through these that I learn from other people's experiences. | The "stupid builder tricks" in VV is always helpful - although the | commentary could be toned down a little - and a factual recitation or | defense by the builder might also be illuminating. I don't believe that | anyone installs anything badly deliberately and it would be helpful to learn | about the chain of events or piece of missing information that led up to the | situation discovered during the Condition Inspection. Like many, or most, of | you I'm trying to build a safe reliable airplane, I've never done it before | and I'll probably never do it again. I take as much care as I can but | there's always going to be something that I was completely unaware of that | may trip me up hence the "second pair of eyes" approach. | | Those of you in the US may subscribe to the FAA ASRS program, pilots can | report their own "stupid tricks" and because they shared their experiences | voluntarily are spared any FAA enforcement action that may ensue - unless | they did something illegal or knowingly. Would it be possible for us to use | an anonymous posting service so that builders can share their "stupid | tricks" or lessons learned with the rest of us. I'm thinking maybe tvbf.org | might be a suitable repository. | | Tony | SEFG | Nose Gear install | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 01:43:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:43:36 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000001c35168$afe1df10$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Message-ID: <002d01c3517c$9e84be40$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C3515B.171F31E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002A_01C3515B.171F31E0" ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C3515B.171F31E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rene, You have something really strange going on there. I can think of no = good reasons for what is happening. I would be concerned about the low = fuel pressure. You should have at least 25 psi at all times, especially = at low fuel flows. My fuel pressure is always greater than 25 psi, = usually around 27, under all conditions, even idling. The flashing low sump light combined with the low fuel pressure tells me = that there is some sort of restriction somewhere, probably in the vent = system. =20 My vent system (173 Elite) is similar to yours, all three tanks tied = together to a common vent, then the vent goes out the belly, cut toward = the front, but mine only sticks out about 3/4 inch. (I did change my = vent system to 3/8" tubing, like my Cessna 172.- rather than 1/4" that = was specified in the manual ). I also added a one way check valve teed = into the vent line going to the bottom of the fuselage just in case a = mud dauber got into my vent. I'd keep trouble shooting until you find the cause. Let us know what = you find. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rene Dugas=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:20 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light My Esteemed Colleagues(Experimenters), My low fuel light mounted on the panel attacked to the left upper sump = mounted switch comes on in flashes on almost every flight. It never = stays on but flashes on in smooth air at cruise mostly but not always = over 170 kts. My vent exits the bottom just upstream from the sump and = sticks out 1.5 inches with a small bevel to the front and 1/8th inch = vent holes x 4 on the draft side. My tanks all connect to a single = manifold then exit as per plans out of the belly. I have tested my tank = caps and find no leak. I have disassembled the caps and lubricated the = two "o" rings. I have extended the vent tube further into the lower = slip stream from =BD inch to 1.5 inches with no change. The light has = never come on at high fuel flows at low speeds. Usually occurs at lean = cruise around 13 to 13.5 gal/hr. IO 540. Engine never falters. Fuel = pressure occasionally drops below 16 PSI and the Vision system activates = the warning for a single two second cycle the pressure is restored to = about 21 psi. =20 Ideas? Thanks, Rene' N129RD XL RG ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C3515B.171F31E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rene,

You have something really strange going on = there. I can=20 think of no good reasons for what is happening. I would be = concerned about=20 the low fuel pressure. You should have at least 25 psi at all = times,=20 especially at low fuel flows. My fuel pressure is always greater = than 25=20 psi, usually around 27, under all conditions, even idling.

The flashing low sump light combined with the low = fuel=20 pressure tells me that there is some sort of restriction somewhere, = probably in=20 the vent system.

My vent system (173 Elite) is similar to yours, all = three=20 tanks tied together to a common vent, then the vent goes out the belly, = cut=20 toward the front, but mine only sticks out about 3/4 inch. (I did = change=20 my vent system to 3/8" tubing, like my Cessna 172.- rather than 1/4" = that was=20 specified in the manual ).   I also added a one way check = valve=20 teed into the vent line going to the bottom of the fuselage just in case = a mud=20 dauber got into my vent.

I'd keep trouble shooting until you find the = cause. Let=20 us know what you find.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rene = Dugas
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 6:20=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

My Esteemed=20 Colleagues(Experimenters),

My low fuel light mounted on the panel = attacked to the=20 left upper sump mounted switch comes on in flashes on almost every=20 flight. It never stays on but flashes on in smooth air at = cruise=20 mostly but not always over 170 kts. My vent exits the bottom = just=20 upstream from the sump and sticks out 1.5 inches with a small bevel to = the=20 front and 1/8^th inch vent holes x 4 on the draft = side. My=20 tanks all connect to a single manifold then exit as per plans out of = the=20 belly. I have tested my tank caps and find no leak. I have = disassembled the caps and lubricated the two “o” = rings. I have extended=20 the vent tube further into the lower slip stream from =BD inch to 1.5 = inches=20 with no change. The light has never come on at high fuel flows = at low=20 speeds. Usually occurs at lean cruise around 13 to 13.5 = gal/hr. IO=20 540. Engine never falters. Fuel pressure occasionally = drops below=20 16 PSI and the Vision system activates the warning for a single two = second=20 cycle the pressure is restored to about 21 psi. =

Ideas?

Thanks,

Rene’

N129RD

XL = RG
------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C3515B.171F31E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C3515B.171F31E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002801c3517c$9ddce580$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> R0lGODlhKAAeAPcAAJkAM/8zZswAM/8AM/+ZmcwzZv/M/8xmmZkzZmYAM8wzmf+ZzP9mzP+Z//9m mcwAZv8AZv8zmf8Amf8zzP8AzP9m//8z//9QUNYAk5kAZsxmzMwzzMyZ/8xm/8wz/5kzmcwAzMwA /5kAzJkAmcyZzJlmmWYzZmYAmZkzzGYAZpkA/5kz/5lmzDMAM2YzmWYzzGYAzJlm/zMAZmYA/2Yz /8zM/5mZ/5mZzGZmzGZm/2ZmmTMzZjMzmTMAmTMAzDMAzDMz/zMzzABm/wAzzDNm/zNmzAAAZgAA MwAA/wAAmQAzzAAAzDNmmQBmzJnM/2aZ/wAzZmaZzABmmTOZzACZzGbM/zOZ/wAzmQCZ/zPM/wDM /5n//2b//wAzMwD//wDMzACZmWaZmZnMzMz//zPMzGbMzDOZmTNmZgBmZgAzMwD/zDP/zDPMmQDM mWb/zJn/zAD/mTOZZgBmMzNmM2aZZmbMZpn/mWb/ZjOZM5nMmWb/mTP/mTPMZgDMZmbMmQCZZgCZ MzP/ZgD/Zsz/zMz/mZn/Zpn/MwDMMzP/MwDMMzPMMzPMM2b/M2bMMwBmAAAzAACZADPMAGb/AJn/ AGbMAADMADPMADOZAJnMZmaZM5nMMzNmAGaZAJnMAMz/Zsz/M8z/AJmZAMzMAMzMMzMzAGZmAJmZ M8zMZmZmM5mZZszMmf//zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/MAP/MZv/MM8yZM5lmAMyZAP+ZAMxmAJkzAMxm M2YzAP+ZZv9mM/+ZM/9mAMwzAJlmMzMAAGYzM5lmZsyZmZkzM8xmZv/MzP8zM8wzM/9mZmYAAJkA AMwAAP8AAP8zAMyZZv/MmczMzJmZmWZmZjMzMwAAAP///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAeAAAI/wCvrVp1 TWBBgQQHCqxxUOGqYwQNSjMYkWHBY9cmHjyoMWPBVR1rJNzIEWFBaREHohwocqBLkyATKpT4kmJE jwY/TnQp0+VKhi9RIkxJ8mNDkEUtflylFGNBoEYpaoQYNePNkQ0PijTZkaDThhOhbtXINKfXoicJ MuxI9ulRnEs9zpQYtSJapCSRKp1Lsm1bp3uNkiUotKzAnX1PPsXL1ihUrCuHxuRpdqhkhyot28UZ cWfLa1spiiW51utNnURTYn2bNu/UtVkNhu688GLqokTpqj7MGqJauTmVVi3a0aRbtBuF4my5kulu mMpnEq4pU6f12g6jx7Q53XjOvKxJJ3A3/FDrNaqpp+a2mvXqza0KJyL+qhi07LxQv9t3bx9u1L3F XceeYCMpl19sef1Wl35tZeVUV4IZV9hj+nEGXH2clTVSZ5iphFllL/HU4VLVCXeeYoaZFJpjHhVH W4YWbcfeVbwheB1fNi2YI3XmURQQADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C3515B.171F31E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 01:51:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:51:53 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Message-ID: <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C35143.1A1135A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightRene', I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. I = plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and = the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow = the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump = tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more = problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to = escape from the sump tank (before engine start). Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rene Dugas=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air = to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my = tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the = line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all = three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks = for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant = fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no pressure numbers = were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but = I don't see how. Thanks=20 Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had = that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you = described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut = off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light = durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then = pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump = light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a = common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good = news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of = pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have = an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent = me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce = thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold = pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install it. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C35143.1A1135A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Rene',

I'm not flying yet, so my comments can = be=20 discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off = valve=20 between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will be = that the=20 vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't = introduce air=20 into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump = tank=20 causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is = allowed=20 to escape from the sump tank (before engine start).

Keith Hallsten



----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rene = Dugas
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 4:00=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

Thanks=20 Jack,

I felt that = maybe the=20 boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but = not the=20 tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them = at high=20 pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean = info=20 from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are = connected to=20 the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the=20 Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations = with the=20 engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were available. I = talked=20 to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don=92t see = how. =20 Thanks

Rene=92

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack = Sheehan
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 4:35=20 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject:=20 Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene'

I can not=20 say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on = my XL-RG=20 and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the = plumbing=20 except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the=20 fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight = period by=20 getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain = a dive=20 for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low = pressure=20 warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with = Vision=20 micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the = bad=20 news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump = works=20 and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see = it. They=20 have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in = theory=20 reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the = manifold=20 pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install=20 it.

Jack

N55XL
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C35143.1A1135A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 02:20:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Kuc) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:20:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <03a601c35181$b648a0f0$0301a8c0@win2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03A3_01C35160.2EF9D0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light=20 I was think about that also. However, if you are on the low side of = fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard stake would rush to = the end. Would that not introduce air into the sump tank that you would = have no way of relieving because you have the vent blocked off? Bob I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank = and the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can = allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the = sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes = more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed = to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). ------=_NextPart_000_03A3_01C35160.2EF9D0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

I was think about that also. = However, if you=20 are on the low side of fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the = inboard=20 stake would rush to the end. Would that not introduce air into the = sump=20 tank that you would have no way of relieving because you have the vent = blocked=20 off?

Bob

I plan to install a manual vent = shut-off valve=20 between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will be = that the=20 vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't = introduce air=20 into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the = sump tank=20 causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is = allowed=20 to escape from the sump tank (before engine start).

------=_NextPart_000_03A3_01C35160.2EF9D0E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 02:41:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:41:50 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts In-Reply-To: <002301c3517c$4179c600$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: Sounds like a great idea. I'm trying to get the SQL server back online for the gallery. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:41 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts > > > I think that is a GREAT idea - an anonymous list in tvbf.org where folks > could post their errors/oversights and lessons learned!!! I've > got a couple > I would like to share! > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Babb" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:30 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Accidents, statistics and random thoughts > > > | Given that Velocity Aircraft is a US based company they are, > unfortunately, > | subject to US law and (sorry Chris) US lawyers so liability is > clearly an > | issue they and ourselves need to be sensitive to. It doesn't help any of > us > | if they get hit with some major judgment against them just because they > | happened to be the deepest pockets around and go belly up as a result. > | > | I don't know about everyone else but I subscribe to numerous flying mags > and > | assiduously read the incident reports, often shaking my head > and thinking > | "what was (s)he thinking of" and occasionally thinking I could > have easily > | done that. It's through these that I learn from other people's > experiences. > | The "stupid builder tricks" in VV is always helpful - although the > | commentary could be toned down a little - and a factual recitation or > | defense by the builder might also be illuminating. I don't believe that > | anyone installs anything badly deliberately and it would be helpful to > learn > | about the chain of events or piece of missing information that led up to > the > | situation discovered during the Condition Inspection. Like > many, or most, > of > | you I'm trying to build a safe reliable airplane, I've never done it > before > | and I'll probably never do it again. I take as much care as I can but > | there's always going to be something that I was completely > unaware of that > | may trip me up hence the "second pair of eyes" approach. > | > | Those of you in the US may subscribe to the FAA ASRS program, pilots can > | report their own "stupid tricks" and because they shared their > experiences > | voluntarily are spared any FAA enforcement action that may > ensue - unless > | they did something illegal or knowingly. Would it be possible for us to > use > | an anonymous posting service so that builders can share their "stupid > | tricks" or lessons learned with the rest of us. I'm thinking maybe > tvbf.org > | might be a suitable repository. > | > | Tony > | SEFG > | Nose Gear install > | > | _______________________________________________ > | To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > | > | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > | > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 02:46:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:46:22 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! In-Reply-To: <03a601c35181$b648a0f0$0301a8c0@win2k> References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <03a601c35181$b648a0f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: <1059011182.3f1f3a6ed4bb4@webmail.123mail.net> Please, please, please do not do this (install a vent shutoff valve)! Air must enter the system as the fuel drains out or 1 of 2 really bad things will happen. 1) Pop-Bottle plug effect - where the gas glug-glug-glugs to your engine, or stops altogther as air cannot replace the lost fluid-or- 2) The tanks will crush as the fuel pulls vacuum on the tank and the outside air pressure pops the strake open Having seen a 30,000 industrial tank get crushed like a soda can from a plugged vent & overflow line, I'm horrified by the idea of this happening in flight. Allowing air into the tanks is the primary purpose of the vent, and why you should install the check valve to allow cabin air into the tanks (but no gas-vapor into the cabin) should the external vent get blocked by ice. If there's an adequate fuel level in the stakes, an air bubble should not be able to form in the sump, as the head pressure from the strakes should fill it to the level (in the vent line) of the strakes (fluids seek their own level and all). If a bubble were to form it would indicate that the fuel pump is pulling the level faster than the tanks can replenish it. Brett Quoting Bob Kuc : > Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > I was think about that also. However, if you are on > the low side of > fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard > stake would rush to > the end. Would that not introduce air into the sump > tank that you would > have no way of relieving because you have the vent > blocked off? > > Bob > I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve > between the sump tank > and the vent manifold. The result will be that the > vent system can > allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't > introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > sump tank causes > more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" > of air is allowed > to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 02:55:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:55:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <004b01c35186$ac7c4a40$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C35165.2505F500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightIf the vent lines slope upward to the = manifold from the three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping = air or fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the = fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in = the main tanks, thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KeithHallsten=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene', I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. I = plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and = the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow = the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump = tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more = problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to = escape from the sump tank (before engine start). Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rene Dugas=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing = air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over = pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a = gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) = few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain = perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told = me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no = pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be = in the line but I don't see how. Thanks=20 Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not = had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you = described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut = off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light = durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then = pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump = light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a = common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good = news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of = pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have = an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent = me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce = thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold = pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install it. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C35165.2505F500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from = the three=20 tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or fuel. The = fuel=20 should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in the sump = tank=20 vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, = thereby=20 keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KeithHallsten
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 8:51=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

Rene',

I'm not flying yet, so my comments = can be=20 discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off = valve=20 between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will be = that the=20 vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't = introduce air=20 into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the = sump tank=20 causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is = allowed=20 to escape from the sump tank (before engine start).

Keith Hallsten



----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rene = Dugas=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:00=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low = fuel=20 light

Thanks=20 Jack,

I felt = that maybe=20 the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the = sump but=20 not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and = rupture=20 them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but = wanted=20 to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three = tanks=20 are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for = the info=20 on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant = fluctuations=20 with the engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were=20 available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the = line but=20 I don’t see how. Thanks

Rene’

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack = Sheehan
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:35=20 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject:=20 Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene'

I can=20 not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had = that on my=20 XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in = the=20 plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost = flush with=20 the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test = flight=20 period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over = and=20 maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to = flicker The=20 low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have = spoken=20 with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is = working fine=20 and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the = lycoming=20 pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you = never=20 see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line = which will=20 in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in = the=20 manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free = time to=20 install it.

Jack

N55XL
= ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C35165.2505F500-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 04:12:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:12:01 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light & Vent System References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <03a601c35181$b648a0f0$0301a8c0@win2k> <1059011182.3f1f3a6ed4bb4@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: <006801c35191$5a0e4be0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Brett, I think you misunderstood my proposal! I'm not shutting off the entire vent system! The sump tank will still be vented through the 3/8" fuel lines, strakes, and strake vents bback to the manifold, so there won't be any significant flow restriction or tank crushing going on. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Ferrell" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:46 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! > Please, please, please do not do this (install a vent shutoff valve)! Air must enter the system as the fuel drains out or 1 of 2 really bad things will happen. > 1) Pop-Bottle plug effect - where the gas glug-glug-glugs to your engine, or stops altogther as air cannot replace the lost fluid-or- > 2) The tanks will crush as the fuel pulls vacuum on the tank and the outside air pressure pops the strake open > > Having seen a 30,000 industrial tank get crushed like a soda can from a plugged vent & overflow line, I'm horrified by the idea of this happening in flight. Allowing air into the tanks is the primary purpose of the vent, and why you should install the check valve to allow cabin air into the tanks (but no gas-vapor into the cabin) should the external vent get blocked by ice. > > If there's an adequate fuel level in the stakes, an air bubble should not be able to form in the sump, as the head pressure from the strakes should fill it to the level (in the vent line) of the strakes (fluids seek their own level and all). If a bubble were to form it would indicate that the fuel pump is pulling the level faster than the tanks can replenish it. > > Brett > > Quoting Bob Kuc : > > > Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > I was think about that also. However, if you are on > > the low side of > fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard > > stake would rush to > the end. Would that not introduce air into the sump > > tank that you would > have no way of relieving because you have the vent > > blocked off? > > > > Bob > > I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve > > between the sump tank > and the vent manifold. The result will be that the > > vent system can > allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't > > introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > > sump tank causes > more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" > > of air is allowed > to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 04:20:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:20:45 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <004b01c35186$ac7c4a40$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <007201c35192$92df7920$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C35157.E5C7FF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightYes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. = Unfortunately, we continue to get these reports from the flying = population regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! =20 I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump tank just = a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through the strakes supplies = fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a transient event, just persisting = long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out = of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump = tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from = the strake tanks. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the three tanks, = there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or fuel. The fuel should = go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in the sump tank vent = should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby = keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KeithHallsten=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene', I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. I = plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and = the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow = the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump = tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more = problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to = escape from the sump tank (before engine start). Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rene Dugas=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing = air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over = pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a = gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) = few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain = perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told = me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no = pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be = in the line but I don't see how. Thanks=20 Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] = On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not = had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you = described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut = off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light = durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then = pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump = light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a = common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good = news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of = pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have = an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent = me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce = thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold = pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install it. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C35157.E5C7FF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" = be=20 true. Unfortunately, we continue to get these reports from the = flying=20 population regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! =

I think that at times the vent system = supplies air=20 to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path = through the=20 strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a transient = event,=20 just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare = the=20 bejesus out of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent = line to=20 the sump tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump tank must = come from=20 the strake tanks.



----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronnie=20 Brown
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 6:55=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold = from the=20 three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or = fuel. The=20 fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in = the sump=20 tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, = thereby=20 keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KeithHallsten
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 8:51=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low = fuel=20 light

Rene',

I'm not flying yet, so my comments = can be=20 discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent = shut-off valve=20 between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will = be that=20 the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't=20 introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the = vent line=20 to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the = initial=20 "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before engine = start).

Keith Hallsten



----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Rene = Dugas=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:00=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low = fuel=20 light

Thanks=20 Jack,

I felt = that maybe=20 the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the = sump but=20 not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and = rupture=20 them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line = but wanted=20 to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all = three tanks=20 are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for = the=20 info on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant=20 fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no pressure = numbers were=20 available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in = the line=20 but I don=92t see how. Thanks

Rene=92

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] = On Behalf Of Jack = Sheehan
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:35=20 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low = fuel=20 light

Rene'

I can=20 not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had = that on=20 my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described = in the=20 plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost = flush with=20 the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test = flight=20 period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose = over and=20 maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to = flicker The=20 low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I = have spoken=20 with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is = working fine=20 and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way = the=20 lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low = sensitivity=20 you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the = sensor=20 line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar = snubber=20 device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I = get=20 some free time to install it.

Jack

N55XL
------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C35157.E5C7FF80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 04:27:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:27:47 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <03a601c35181$b648a0f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: <007c01c35193$8df08b60$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C35158.E15F58C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightBob, Personally, I try to fly coordinated turns, so the strake drains to the = sump tank stay covered with fuel. However, if a little air were = introduced to the sump tank it would not interfere with the operation of = the fuel system - you would just have a bubble in the sump tank. If the = bubble were large, it might make its way back into one of the strake = tanks, but that's of little concern, as long as the volume of air = remains only a percentage of the volume of the sump tank. The next time = you fill the tanks, just exercise the sump vent valve to allow any = trapped air to escape. Keith =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Kuc=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:20 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light =20 I was think about that also. However, if you are on the low side of = fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard stake would rush to = the end. Would that not introduce air into the sump tank that you would = have no way of relieving because you have the vent blocked off? Bob I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank = and the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can = allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the = sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes = more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed = to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C35158.E15F58C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Bob,

Personally, I try to fly coordinated = turns, so the=20 strake drains to the sump tank stay covered with fuel. However, if = a=20 little air were introduced to the sump tank it would not interfere with = the=20 operation of the fuel system - you would just have a bubble in the sump=20 tank. If the bubble were large, it might make its way back into = one of the=20 strake tanks, but that's of little concern, as long as the volume of air = remains=20 only a percentage of the volume of the sump tank. The next time = you fill=20 the tanks, just exercise the sump vent valve to allow any trapped air to = escape.

Keith

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob Kuc=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 6:20=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

=20
I was think about that also. = However, if=20 you are on the low side of fuel and then make a turn, the fuel = on the=20 inboard stake would rush to the end. Would that not introduce = air into=20 the sump tank that you would have no way of relieving because you have = the=20 vent blocked off?

Bob

I plan to install a manual vent = shut-off valve=20 between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will = be that=20 the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't=20 introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the = vent line=20 to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the = initial=20 "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before engine = start).

------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C35158.E15F58C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 05:10:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:10:18 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... Message-ID: sorry, I've received many messages about what the original cost was... $8000 -- for the engine/and engine install kit... Thanks! -Don _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 12:46:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 07:46:19 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <004b01c35186$ac7c4a40$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <007201c35192$92df7920$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <002d01c351d9$335d2000$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C351B7.ABD601E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightI think the two primary reasons for the fuel = tank imbalance are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; = (2) a fuel tank cap leak. Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will = greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 tubing = has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as much air. The = reason this matters is that we are only talking about 2 feet of fuel = level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the tanks. This is less = than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak to pull a slight vacuum = on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those O rings = vaselined and also make sure the cap is pulling all the way down (adjust = the lock nut on the back side of the cap). There is also a small O ring = on the shaft of the locking lever that needs to be lubricated. If you = want to check how tightly your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the = vent line, blow in it (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the = caps with a water-dish detergent mixture. The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - which = led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent outlets = that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the single vent = system now used. It is also important that the vent tubing slope upward = to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank vent = pressure imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the tank. = =20 Ronnie=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KeithHallsten=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we continue = to get these reports from the flying population regarding odd behavior = of the fuel/vent system! =20 I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump tank = just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through the strakes = supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a transient event, just = persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the = bejesus out of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line = to the sump tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump tank must = come from the strake tanks. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the three tanks, = there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or fuel. The fuel should = go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in the sump tank vent = should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby = keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KeithHallsten=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene', I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. = I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and = the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow = the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump = tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more = problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to = escape from the sump tank (before engine start). Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rene Dugas=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum = allowing air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to = over pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice = a gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) = few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain = perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told = me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no = pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be = in the line but I don't see how. Thanks=20 Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] = On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have = not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you = described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut = off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light = durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then = pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump = light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a = common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good = news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of = pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have = an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent = me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce = thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold = pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install it. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C351B7.ABD601E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank = imbalance=20 are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank = cap=20 leak.

Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the = original 1/4"=20 will greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel = cap. =20 3/8 tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as = much=20 air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about 2 = feet of=20 fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the tanks. = This is=20 less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak to pull a = slight=20 vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those = O rings=20 vaselined and also make sure the cap is pulling all the way down (adjust = the=20 lock nut on the back side of the cap). There is also a small O = ring on the=20 shaft of the locking lever that needs to be lubricated. If you = want to=20 check how tightly your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent = line, blow=20 in it (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a = water-dish=20 detergent mixture.

The original Velocity design had separate vents for = each tank=20 - which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two = vent=20 outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the = single=20 vent system now used. It is also important that the vent tubing = slope=20 upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank vent = pressure=20 imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the tank. =20

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KeithHallsten
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 11:20=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

Yes! Everything you say = "SHOULD" be=20 true. Unfortunately, we continue to get these reports from the = flying=20 population regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! =

I think that at times the vent system = supplies=20 air to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path = through=20 the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a = transient=20 event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning = and scare=20 the bejesus out of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the = vent=20 line to the sump tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump = tank must=20 come from the strake tanks.



----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronnie=20 Brown
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 6:55=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low = fuel=20 light

If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold = from the=20 three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or = fuel. The=20 fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in = the sump=20 tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main = tanks,=20 thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm = off.

Ronnie

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 KeithHallsten
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 8:51=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low = fuel=20 light

Rene',

I'm not flying yet, so my = comments can be=20 discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent = shut-off=20 valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The = result will=20 be that the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, = but=20 can't introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that = the=20 vent line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, = once the=20 initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank = (before=20 engine start).

Keith Hallsten



----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Rene Dugas=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:00=20 PM

Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel=20 light

Thanks=20 Jack,

I = felt that=20 maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to = enter the=20 sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my = tanks=20 and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage = into the=20 line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) few.=20 Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I = remain=20 perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two = engine=20 builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump = are=20 common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to = Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don’t = see how. =20 Thanks

Rene’

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] = On Behalf Of Jack=20 Sheehan
Sent: = Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel=20 light

Rene'

I=20 can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not = had=20 that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you = described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly = is cut=20 off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump = warning light=20 durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and = then=20 pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for = the sump=20 light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the = VM1000 is a=20 common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and = the good=20 news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack = of=20 pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if = you have=20 an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They = have sent=20 me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory = reduce=20 thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold = pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time = to=20 install it.

Jack

N55XL
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C351B7.ABD601E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 13:19:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:19:38 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light & Vent System References: <000401c3516e$39371730$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> <004401c3517d$c6aa0960$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <03a601c35181$b648a0f0$0301a8c0@win2k> <1059011182.3f1f3a6ed4bb4@webmail.123mail.net> <006801c35191$5a0e4be0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <02e901c351dd$dae77510$0100a8c0@micron> OK, granted, that is how I read that. But I still think the sump should be vented personally, as don't understand what condition could cause air to flow into the sump and displace a heavier/denser fluid (fuel). That doesn't happen without some reason. I don't think you're going to flow fuel uphill into the strakes unless you're pulling A LOT of vacuum through the caps, so the only other explanation is the fuel pump is draining the sump faster than the strakes supply it. In this situation, the unvented sump would experience a vacuum and (potentially) rupture. My limited understanding was that in a turn the uphill wing would/should still be able to provide adequate fuel flow to the sump/engine, but it would seem reasonable that this strake could provide fuel as quickly as the downwind wing 'steals' fuel from the sump. It's problably not practical, but it would be interesting to put fuel flow instruments in each strake line, and a site glass in the sump vent in order to test these assumptions. Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "KeithHallsten" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light & Vent System > Brett, > I think you misunderstood my proposal! I'm not shutting off the entire vent > system! The sump tank will still be vented through the 3/8" fuel lines, > strakes, and strake vents bback to the manifold, so there won't be any > significant flow restriction or tank crushing going on. > Keith > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brett Ferrell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! > > > > Please, please, please do not do this (install a vent shutoff valve)! Air > must enter the system as the fuel drains out or 1 of 2 really bad things > will happen. > > 1) Pop-Bottle plug effect - where the gas glug-glug-glugs to your engine, > or stops altogther as air cannot replace the lost fluid-or- > > 2) The tanks will crush as the fuel pulls vacuum on the tank and the > outside air pressure pops the strake open > > > > Having seen a 30,000 industrial tank get crushed like a soda can from a > plugged vent & overflow line, I'm horrified by the idea of this happening in > flight. Allowing air into the tanks is the primary purpose of the vent, and > why you should install the check valve to allow cabin air into the tanks > (but no gas-vapor into the cabin) should the external vent get blocked by > ice. > > > > If there's an adequate fuel level in the stakes, an air bubble should not > be able to form in the sump, as the head pressure from the strakes should > fill it to the level (in the vent line) of the strakes (fluids seek their > own level and all). If a bubble were to form it would indicate that the > fuel pump is pulling the level faster than the tanks can replenish it. > > > > Brett > > > > Quoting Bob Kuc : > > > > > Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > I was think about that also. However, if you are on > > > the low side of > fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard > > > stake would rush to > the end. Would that not introduce air into the > sump > > > tank that you would > have no way of relieving because you have the vent > > > blocked off? > > > > > > Bob > > > I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve > > > between the sump tank > and the vent manifold. The result will be that > the > > > vent system can > allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't > > > introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line > to the > > > sump tank causes > more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" > > > of air is allowed > to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 14:07:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:07:49 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C351E4.95145110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential is almost expected. Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been there, done that? Chuck XL RG 540 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap leak. Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a water-dish detergent mixture. The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the tank. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: KeithHallsten To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we continue to get these reports from the flying population regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the strake tanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: KeithHallsten To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene', I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message ----- From: Rene Dugas To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don't see how. Thanks Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to install it. Jack N55XL ------_=_NextPart_001_01C351E4.95145110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential is almost expected.

Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been there, done that?

Chuck

XL RG 540

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap leak.

Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a water-dish detergent mixture.

The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the tank.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From: KeithHallsten

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we continue to get these reports from the flying population regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system!

I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the strake tanks.



----- Original Message -----

From: Ronnie Brown

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From: KeithHallsten

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene',

I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before engine start).

Keith Hallsten



----- Original Message -----

From: Rene Dugas

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Thanks Jack,

I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don't see how. Thanks

Rene'

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene'

I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to install it.

Jack

N55XL
------_=_NextPart_001_01C351E4.95145110-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 14:14:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:14:53 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light & Vent System Message-ID: Brett, of course, if you do a coordinated turn, nothing will happen except you'll go in circles. Uncoordinated turns are a different matter. I would like to personally confess that once, many years ago, I caught myself in a coordinated turn, which I stopped immediately. There were no kids watching and I didn't go blind so I think its just a victimless crime. I would continue, but I must go. My psychiatrist's appoint is in a half hour. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 8:20 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light & Vent System OK, granted, that is how I read that. But I still think the sump should be vented personally, as don't understand what condition could cause air to flow into the sump and displace a heavier/denser fluid (fuel). That doesn't happen without some reason. I don't think you're going to flow fuel uphill into the strakes unless you're pulling A LOT of vacuum through the caps, so the only other explanation is the fuel pump is draining the sump faster than the strakes supply it. In this situation, the unvented sump would experience a vacuum and (potentially) rupture. My limited understanding was that in a turn the uphill wing would/should still be able to provide adequate fuel flow to the sump/engine, but it would seem reasonable that this strake could provide fuel as quickly as the downwind wing 'steals' fuel from the sump. It's problably not practical, but it would be interesting to put fuel flow instruments in each strake line, and a site glass in the sump vent in order to test these assumptions. Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "KeithHallsten" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light & Vent System > Brett, > I think you misunderstood my proposal! I'm not shutting off the entire vent > system! The sump tank will still be vented through the 3/8" fuel lines, > strakes, and strake vents bback to the manifold, so there won't be any > significant flow restriction or tank crushing going on. > Keith > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brett Ferrell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! > > > > Please, please, please do not do this (install a vent shutoff valve)! Air > must enter the system as the fuel drains out or 1 of 2 really bad things > will happen. > > 1) Pop-Bottle plug effect - where the gas glug-glug-glugs to your engine, > or stops altogther as air cannot replace the lost fluid-or- > > 2) The tanks will crush as the fuel pulls vacuum on the tank and the > outside air pressure pops the strake open > > > > Having seen a 30,000 industrial tank get crushed like a soda can from a > plugged vent & overflow line, I'm horrified by the idea of this happening in > flight. Allowing air into the tanks is the primary purpose of the vent, and > why you should install the check valve to allow cabin air into the tanks > (but no gas-vapor into the cabin) should the external vent get blocked by > ice. > > > > If there's an adequate fuel level in the stakes, an air bubble should not > be able to form in the sump, as the head pressure from the strakes should > fill it to the level (in the vent line) of the strakes (fluids seek their > own level and all). If a bubble were to form it would indicate that the > fuel pump is pulling the level faster than the tanks can replenish it. > > > > Brett > > > > Quoting Bob Kuc : > > > > > Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > I was think about that also. However, if you are on > > > the low side of > fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard > > > stake would rush to > the end. Would that not introduce air into the > sump > > > tank that you would > have no way of relieving because you have the vent > > > blocked off? > > > > > > Bob > > > I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve > > > between the sump tank > and the vent manifold. The result will be that > the > > > vent system can > allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't > > > introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line > to the > > > sump tank causes > more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" > > > of air is allowed > to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 14:56:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 07:56:11 -0600 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <3F1FE57B.1020801@tnstaafl.net> Chuck, I'd bet your plane is not trimmed correctly. I had imbalance tanks after flying a short while when I first bought my plane. I futzed with the caps. no change. The ball was not quite centered within the lubber lines when I was flying straight and level. So I tried this. I flew a while until the tanks were 5-6 gallons different, then I held a rudder in to put the ball on the opposite side it was sitting on but all the way on the other side of the lubber line. Flew a very short while and the tanks evened out. If you shim out the correct rudder so the ball is exactly in the middle I think your imbalance will be cured. Its a simple fix, just shim out the correct rudder to get the ball centered. Its an easy thing to try, I used a dab of JB Weld to shim it out. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential > is almost expected. > > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the > right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank > or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for > gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in > my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been > there, done that? > > Chuck > XL RG 540 > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) > airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap > leak. > > Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will > greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 > tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as > much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about > 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the > tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak > to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill > up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is > pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of > the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking > lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly > your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it > (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a > water-dish detergent mixture. > > The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - > which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent > outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the > single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent > tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and > create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different > fuel levels in the tank. > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: KeithHallsten > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we > continue to get these reports from the flying population > regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! > > I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump > tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through > the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a > transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low > fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see > little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby > assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the > strake tanks. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ronnie Brown > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the > three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or > fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. > And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same > level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the > sump tank full and the alarm off. > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: KeithHallsten > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Rene', > > I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted > accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off > valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The > result will be that the vent system can allow the main > strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the > initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump > tank (before engine start). > > Keith Hallsten > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rene Dugas > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Thanks Jack, > > I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a > vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the > tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and > rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage > into the line but wanted to glean info from the > informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are > connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. > Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine > builders told me significant fluctuations with the > engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were > available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be > in the line but I don't see how. Thanks > > Rene' > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack > Sheehan > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Rene' > > I can not say much about the low fuel light except > that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not > extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the > plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut > off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my > sump warning light durin the test flight period by > getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose > over and maintain a dive for enough time for the > sump light to start to flicker The low pressure > warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I > have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good > news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news > is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the > lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system > with low sensitivity you never see it. They have > sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line > which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is > a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure > system. I will let you know when I get some free > time to install it. > > Jack > > N55XL > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 16:11:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:11:05 -0400 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: Scott, Good idea. I'll give that a look-see. In turns, I feel lucky if I keep the ball anywhere near the lubber lines, but in straight and near-level, that should be easy to see. If a person thinks about the problem a little (which always gives me a headache), it would only take a wing being a couple inches low to make quite a difference in fuel feed between the tanks. I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0, will I have to fly in a slight slip to keep my right tank feeding? Or will the usual variations of flight continue to keep the sump filled as the right wing goes up momentarily? If it will, then no problem....except, of course, when I turn a right base onto final with a quartering head wind from the right. My rough calculations (and bad luck) indicate I would run out of fuel about 1/2 mile short of the threshold. My headache is getting worse. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:56 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Chuck, I'd bet your plane is not trimmed correctly. I had imbalance tanks after flying a short while when I first bought my plane. I futzed with the caps. no change. The ball was not quite centered within the lubber lines when I was flying straight and level. So I tried this. I flew a while until the tanks were 5-6 gallons different, then I held a rudder in to put the ball on the opposite side it was sitting on but all the way on the other side of the lubber line. Flew a very short while and the tanks evened out. If you shim out the correct rudder so the ball is exactly in the middle I think your imbalance will be cured. Its a simple fix, just shim out the correct rudder to get the ball centered. Its an easy thing to try, I used a dab of JB Weld to shim it out. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential > is almost expected. > > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the > right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank > or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for > gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in > my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been > there, done that? > > Chuck > XL RG 540 > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) > airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap > leak. > > Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will > greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 > tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as > much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about > 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the > tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak > to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill > up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is > pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of > the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking > lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly > your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it > (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a > water-dish detergent mixture. > > The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - > which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent > outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the > single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent > tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and > create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different > fuel levels in the tank. > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: KeithHallsten > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we > continue to get these reports from the flying population > regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! > > I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump > tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through > the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a > transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low > fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see > little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby > assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the > strake tanks. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ronnie Brown > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the > three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or > fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. > And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same > level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the > sump tank full and the alarm off. > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: KeithHallsten > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Rene', > > I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted > accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off > valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The > result will be that the vent system can allow the main > strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the > initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump > tank (before engine start). > > Keith Hallsten > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rene Dugas > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Thanks Jack, > > I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a > vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the > tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and > rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage > into the line but wanted to glean info from the > informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are > connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. > Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine > builders told me significant fluctuations with the > engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were > available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be > in the line but I don't see how. Thanks > > Rene' > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack > Sheehan > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Rene' > > I can not say much about the low fuel light except > that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not > extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the > plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut > off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my > sump warning light durin the test flight period by > getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose > over and maintain a dive for enough time for the > sump light to start to flicker The low pressure > warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I > have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good > news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news > is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the > lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system > with low sensitivity you never see it. They have > sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line > which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is > a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure > system. I will let you know when I get some free > time to install it. > > Jack > > N55XL > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 15:50:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 07:50:08 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <03a601c35181$b648a0f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: <000501c351f2$e10718a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C351B8.34A840A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was think about that also. However, if you are on the low side of fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard stake would rush to the end. Would that not introduce air into the sump tank that you would have no way of relieving because you have the vent blocked off? The result may simply be fuel draining from the high side tank to the low side; however under high power the fuel demand to the engine may be greater than the gravity feed rate from the high-side tank, resulting in air being drawn from the other. . I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). I'd be interesting in hearing what problems the sump vent might cause. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C351B8.34A840A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

I was think about that = also. However, if you are on the low side of fuel and then make a turn, = the fuel on the inboard stake would rush to the end. Would that not = introduce air into the sump tank that you would have no way of relieving because = you have the vent blocked off?

The result may simply be fuel = draining from the high side tank to the low side; however under high power the = fuel demand to the engine may be greater than the gravity feed rate from the = high-side tank, resulting in air being drawn from the other.

=

. I have a theory = that the vent line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank = (before engine start).

I’d be interesting in = hearing what problems the sump vent might cause.

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C351B8.34A840A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 15:50:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Kuc) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:50:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Imbalanced fuel flow References: Message-ID: <050e01c351f2$fb194a60$0301a8c0@win2k> I would think that if your sump vent was closed, then your fuel pump will suck in the air since it would be easier and less restrictive to pull down air then fuel. With open sump vent lines, gravity feed should feed the sump, however, maybe not at the rate you would expect, since you had the imbalance to begin with. > I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0, will I have to fly in a > slight slip to keep my right tank feeding? Or will the usual variations of > flight continue to keep the sump filled as the right wing goes up > momentarily? If it will, then no problem....except, of course, when I turn > a right base onto final with a quartering head wind from the right. My > rough calculations (and bad luck) indicate I would run out of fuel about 1/2 > mile short of the threshold. My headache is getting worse. From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 16:18:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:18:39 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <3F1FF8E8.4880239C@comcast.net> Chuck, > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 > and the right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw > from the right tank or will I have to pull off on the side of > the road and hitch a ride for gas? I'd hate to think I was > carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in my tanks >From the reports of those who have been there before you, that's exactly what you have. The good news is the low fuel light will give you some warning of the impending loss of power. Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 16:25:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Simon Aegerter) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:25:55 +0200 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --============_-1153062100==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0 Chuck: you land on an Interstate on ramp. Has been done before! The following is from the NTSB: ----------- On June 15, 1999, about 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/RG, N19DW, registered to a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 91 personal flight, crashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss of engine power while attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County International Airport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured. The flight originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the accident. Full narrative: On June 15, 1999, about 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/RG, N19DW, registered to a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 91 personal flight, crashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss of engine power while attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County International Airport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured. The flight originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the accident. According to the pilot/builder, he was in cruise flight at 1,500 feet msl, about 10 miles southwest of the St. Lucie County Airport. He was maneuvering to attain a visual on his destination, a private airstrip. Without warning, he experienced a rapid decrease of engine power that activation of the electric fuel boost pump appeared to remedy. One or 2 minutes later, the engine again lost power and he noticed the fuel pressure gage indicating zero. He turned toward St. Lucie County Airport, but when it became obvious to him that engine power available would not sustain flight to the airport, he chose the highway for a forced landing. The aircraft collided with pole-mounted power transmission lines on approach to the highway about 4 miles west of the St. Lucie County Airport, that caused a hard touchdown to the pavement. He estimated that his fuel distribution at the beginning of the flight to be 5 to 10 gallons in the right tank, 10 to 12 gallons in the left tank, and 3 gallons in the sump tank. He further stated that he had recently replaced the factory-provided wing tank fuel caps with a different set of caps about a week before the accident. The new caps were not vented, and in retrospect, he stated the caps did not feel as tightly sealed to the filler pipe flange as the previous ones, but thought no more of it. He added that he began to have fuel balance problems that he had not experienced before, but did not make the connection. According to St. Lucie County FAA Control Tower personnel, at 1002 the pilot radioed that he was a possible emergency due to low fuel pressure and shortly thereafter, advised that he could not make the field due to low power and was landing on I-95. Subsequent examination of the wreckage and interview of the pilot/builder by FAA personnel revealed that the aircraft is configured with a 33-gallon fuel tank in each wing that gravity feeds into a fuselage mounted 3-gallon sump tank and thence to the aft-mounted engine via an electric driven boost pump. There is no fuel selector valve on the aircraft. The fuel quantity indication system consisted of graduations on a left and right sight-gage made of clear flex-tubing spliced inline with fuel feed lines between the wing tanks and the sump tank and routed into the cabin. Eight to nine gallons of uncontaminated 100LL aviation fuel was contained in the left wing/sump tank combination and no fuel was found in the right tank, postcrash. The wreckage was subsequently moved to county property where operational testing of the fuel system and engine was conducted. The engine started with no problems and exhaust sound was relatively smooth and consistent. High end rpm was not tested due to propeller damage and imbalance. The new fuel tank caps are shipped from the kit factory with adjustment instructions attached, but the pilot does not remember seeing them, (a copy of the instructions is included in this report). All three tanks are vented to the outside atmosphere, but inspection of the total vent system revealed some plumbing component's inside diameter measurements to be as small as .18 inch. Pressurizing either wing tank with air revealed that the fuel vent system could not adequately equalize the pressure, and air bypass at the loosest fitting fuel cap occurred. It is reasoned that the opposite would also take effect, i.e. a negative pressure as occurs above the wing during flight would also cause air bypass, (siphoning of air) out of the wing tank through the loose fitting cap. The net effect would be a low pressure or vacuum created in the wing fuel tank that would interfere with gravity feed into the sump tank and eventual fuel starvation. The factory provides, as an option to the basic airplane kit at additional cost, a "low fuel" warning light for the sump tank, but this airplane was not so equipped. As a result of this occurrence, flight testing was performed at the Velocity Aircraft Factory, Sebastian, Florida, using loose-fitting fuel tank caps in an attempt to duplicate the conditions present during the accident. It was revealed that the wing tanks did, in fact, stop their gravity feed and the sump tank quantity started decreasing when using the loose cap. As a result of the testing, the factory is experimenting with replacing the 1/4 inch fuel vent tubing with 3/8 inch tubing in the wing tanks. Additionally, the factory eliminated the sump fuel vent in favor of an air bleed-off valve or "burp" valve for use during pilot's preflight walk-around inspection. The factory has also issued an alert via newsletter to all kit owners concerning the hazards of using loose-fitting wing tank fuel caps. Applicable excerpts from that newsletter are included in this report. ----------------- That should answer a couple of questions... Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland --============_-1153062100==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel l
I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0

Chuck:

you land on an Interstate on ramp. Has been done before! The following is from the NTSB:

-----------

On June 15, 1999, about 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/RG, N19DW, registered to a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 91 personal flight, crashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss of engine power while attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County International Airport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured. The flight originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the accident.

Full narrative:

On June 15, 1999, about 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/RG, N19DW, registered to a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 91 personal flight, crashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss of engine power while attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County International Airport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured. The flight originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the accident.
According to the pilot/builder, he was in cruise flight at 1,500 feet msl, about 10 miles southwest of the St. Lucie County Airport. He was maneuvering to attain a visual on his destination, a private airstrip. Without warning, he experienced a rapid decrease of engine power that activation of the electric fuel boost pump appeared to remedy. One or 2 minutes later, the engine again lost power and he noticed the fuel pressure gage indicating zero. He turned toward St. Lucie County Airport, but when it became obvious to him that engine power available would not sustain flight to the airport, he chose the highway for a forced landing. The aircraft collided with pole-mounted power transmission lines on approach to the highway about 4 miles west of the St. Lucie County Airport, that caused a hard touchdown to the pavement. He estimated that his fuel distribution at the beginning of the flight to be 5 to 10 gallons in the right tank, 10 to 12 gallons in the left tank, and 3 gallons in the sump tank. He further stated that he had recently replaced the factory-provided wing tank fuel caps with a different set of caps about a week before the accident. The new caps were not vented, and in retrospect, he stated the caps did not feel as tightly sealed to the filler pipe flange as the previous ones, but thought no more of it. He added that he began to have fuel balance problems that he had not experienced before, but did not make the connection.
According to St. Lucie County FAA Control Tower personnel, at 1002 the pilot radioed that he was a possible emergency due to low fuel pressure and shortly thereafter, advised that he could not make the field due to low power and was landing on I-95.
Subsequent examination of the wreckage and interview of the pilot/builder by FAA personnel revealed that the aircraft is configured with a 33-gallon fuel tank in each wing that gravity feeds into a fuselage mounted 3-gallon sump tank and thence to the aft-mounted engine via an electric driven boost pump. There is no fuel selector valve on the aircraft. The fuel quantity indication system consisted of graduations on a left and right sight-gage made of clear flex-tubing spliced inline with fuel feed lines between the wing tanks and the sump tank and routed into the cabin. Eight to nine gallons of uncontaminated 100LL aviation fuel was contained in the left wing/sump tank combination and no fuel was found in the right tank, postcrash. The wreckage was subsequently moved to county property where operational testing of the fuel system and engine was conducted. The engine started with no problems and exhaust sound was relatively smooth and consistent. High end rpm was not tested due to propeller damage and imbalance.

The new fuel tank caps are shipped from the kit factory with adjustment instructions attached, but the pilot does not remember seeing them, (a copy of the instructions is included in this report). All three tanks are vented to the outside atmosphere, but inspection of the total vent system revealed some plumbing component's inside diameter measurements to be as small as .18 inch. Pressurizing either wing tank with air revealed that the fuel vent system could not adequately equalize the pressure, and air bypass at the loosest fitting fuel cap occurred. It is reasoned that the opposite would also take effect, i.e. a negative pressure as occurs above the wing during flight would also cause air bypass, (siphoning of air) out of the wing tank through the loose fitting cap. The net effect would be a low pressure or vacuum created in the wing fuel tank that would interfere with gravity feed into the sump tank and eventual fuel starvation. The factory provides, as an option to the basic airplane kit at additional cost, a "low fuel" warning light for the sump tank, but this airplane was not so equipped.
As a result of this occurrence, flight testing was performed at the Velocity Aircraft Factory, Sebastian, Florida, using loose-fitting fuel tank caps in an attempt to duplicate the conditions present during the accident. It was revealed that the wing tanks did, in fact, stop their gravity feed and the sump tank quantity started decreasing when using the loose cap. As a result of the testing, the factory is experimenting with replacing the 1/4 inch fuel vent tubing with 3/8 inch tubing in the wing tanks. Additionally, the factory eliminated the sump fuel vent in favor of an air bleed-off valve or "burp" valve for use during pilot's preflight walk-around inspection. The factory has also issued an alert via newsletter to all kit owners concerning the hazards of using loose-fitting wing tank fuel caps. Applicable excerpts from that newsletter are included in this report.

-----------------

That should answer a couple of questions...

Best

Simon

--

Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland
--============_-1153062100==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 16:29:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:29:32 -0400 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <032601c351f8$62085b80$0100a8c0@micron> Theoretically? You should not have to, if the wings are approximately level the head pressure of the strake with fuel "should" keep the sump full as long as it can feed the flow the engine requires. In fact, it will back-feed the "empty" stake to the level it contains (again assuming adequate flow), so that strake will never be truly empty (fluids seek their own level, everything else being equal). That's the whole point of having a sump rather than two separate lines to the engine, the tanks should feed about equally, and should be able to use all of both tanks. If the engine could outdraw the gravity flow from a single strake, it would try to suck air through the vent or the other strake drain line, and that would, well, suck.... Worse, even if it couldn't pull air all of the way to the engine, as the head pressure on the fuel pump sags, it could cavitate and become ineffective long before that. Does anybody know if aircraft fuel pumps can operate without head pressure on the inlet? A turn towards the full strake could get a little exciting, but the sump should hold enough buffer to outlast a turn, but this is exactly a situation where the sump needs to vent air inorder to refill, though assuming the other tank is dry it could vent through that line. The only things that should affect the rate of flow between the tanks is if the wings aren't level (check your ball), a leak (through the cap or otherwise - which should only matter if the vent lines can't equalize the pressure), or if there's a big difference in the line losses in the fuel drain lines between the strakes (shouldn't be the case, but could be if there were debris on your strake drain screen). Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Scott, > > Good idea. I'll give that a look-see. In turns, I feel lucky if I keep the > ball anywhere near the lubber lines, but in straight and near-level, that > should be easy to see. > > If a person thinks about the problem a little (which always gives me a > headache), it would only take a wing being a couple inches low to make quite > a difference in fuel feed between the tanks. > > I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0, will I have to fly in a > slight slip to keep my right tank feeding? Or will the usual variations of > flight continue to keep the sump filled as the right wing goes up > momentarily? If it will, then no problem....except, of course, when I turn > a right base onto final with a quartering head wind from the right. My > rough calculations (and bad luck) indicate I would run out of fuel about 1/2 > mile short of the threshold. My headache is getting worse. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:56 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Chuck, > > I'd bet your plane is not trimmed correctly. I had imbalance tanks after > flying a short while when I first bought my plane. I futzed with the > caps. no change. > > The ball was not quite centered within the lubber lines when I was > flying straight and level. > > So I tried this. I flew a while until the tanks were 5-6 gallons > different, then I held a rudder in to put the ball on the opposite side > it was sitting on but all the way on the other side of the lubber line. > Flew a very short while and the tanks evened out. > > If you shim out the correct rudder so the ball is exactly in the middle > I think your imbalance will be cured. Its a simple fix, just shim out > the correct rudder to get the ball centered. Its an easy thing to try, I > used a dab of JB Weld to shim it out. > > Scott > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential > > is almost expected. > > > > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the > > right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank > > or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for > > gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in > > my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been > > there, done that? > > > > Chuck > > XL RG 540 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) > > airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap > > leak. > > > > Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will > > greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 > > tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as > > much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about > > 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the > > tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak > > to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill > > up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is > > pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of > > the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking > > lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly > > your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it > > (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a > > water-dish detergent mixture. > > > > The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - > > which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent > > outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the > > single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent > > tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and > > create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different > > fuel levels in the tank. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we > > continue to get these reports from the flying population > > regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! > > > > I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump > > tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through > > the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a > > transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low > > fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see > > little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby > > assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the > > strake tanks. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ronnie Brown > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the > > three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or > > fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. > > And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same > > level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the > > sump tank full and the alarm off. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Rene', > > > > I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted > > accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off > > valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The > > result will be that the vent system can allow the main > > strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the > > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > > sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the > > initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump > > tank (before engine start). > > > > Keith Hallsten > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rene Dugas > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Thanks Jack, > > > > I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a > > vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the > > tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and > > rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage > > into the line but wanted to glean info from the > > informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are > > connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. > > Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine > > builders told me significant fluctuations with the > > engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were > > available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be > > in the line but I don't see how. Thanks > > > > Rene' > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack > > Sheehan > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > > > > > Rene' > > > > I can not say much about the low fuel light except > > that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not > > extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the > > plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut > > off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my > > sump warning light durin the test flight period by > > getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose > > over and maintain a dive for enough time for the > > sump light to start to flicker The low pressure > > warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I > > have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good > > news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news > > is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the > > lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system > > with low sensitivity you never see it. They have > > sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line > > which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is > > a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure > > system. I will let you know when I get some free > > time to install it. > > > > Jack > > > > N55XL > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 17:44:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:44:34 -0400 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: Just a small point about the fuel flow in a turn. If the turn is coordinated I would expect that the flow would not be changed since the forces are all in balance. As I recall, you can set a glass of liquid on the console and it will be level an continue to be level throughout any coordinated maneuver. Am I confused on this? "Brett Ferrell" .net> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/24/03 11:29 AM Please respond to reflector Theoretically? You should not have to, if the wings are approximately level the head pressure of the strake with fuel "should" keep the sump full as long as it can feed the flow the engine requires. In fact, it will back-feed the "empty" stake to the level it contains (again assuming adequate flow), so that strake will never be truly empty (fluids seek their own level, everything else being equal). That's the whole point of having a sump rather than two separate lines to the engine, the tanks should feed about equally, and should be able to use all of both tanks. If the engine could outdraw the gravity flow from a single strake, it would try to suck air through the vent or the other strake drain line, and that would, well, suck.... Worse, even if it couldn't pull air all of the way to the engine, as the head pressure on the fuel pump sags, it could cavitate and become ineffective long before that. Does anybody know if aircraft fuel pumps can operate without head pressure on the inlet? A turn towards the full strake could get a little exciting, but the sump should hold enough buffer to outlast a turn, but this is exactly a situation where the sump needs to vent air inorder to refill, though assuming the other tank is dry it could vent through that line. The only things that should affect the rate of flow between the tanks is if the wings aren't level (check your ball), a leak (through the cap or otherwise - which should only matter if the vent lines can't equalize the pressure), or if there's a big difference in the line losses in the fuel drain lines between the strakes (shouldn't be the case, but could be if there were debris on your strake drain screen). Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Scott, > > Good idea. I'll give that a look-see. In turns, I feel lucky if I keep the > ball anywhere near the lubber lines, but in straight and near-level, that > should be easy to see. > > If a person thinks about the problem a little (which always gives me a > headache), it would only take a wing being a couple inches low to make quite > a difference in fuel feed between the tanks. > > I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0, will I have to fly in a > slight slip to keep my right tank feeding? Or will the usual variations of > flight continue to keep the sump filled as the right wing goes up > momentarily? If it will, then no problem....except, of course, when I turn > a right base onto final with a quartering head wind from the right. My > rough calculations (and bad luck) indicate I would run out of fuel about 1/2 > mile short of the threshold. My headache is getting worse. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:56 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Chuck, > > I'd bet your plane is not trimmed correctly. I had imbalance tanks after > flying a short while when I first bought my plane. I futzed with the > caps. no change. > > The ball was not quite centered within the lubber lines when I was > flying straight and level. > > So I tried this. I flew a while until the tanks were 5-6 gallons > different, then I held a rudder in to put the ball on the opposite side > it was sitting on but all the way on the other side of the lubber line. > Flew a very short while and the tanks evened out. > > If you shim out the correct rudder so the ball is exactly in the middle > I think your imbalance will be cured. Its a simple fix, just shim out > the correct rudder to get the ball centered. Its an easy thing to try, I > used a dab of JB Weld to shim it out. > > Scott > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential > > is almost expected. > > > > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the > > right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank > > or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for > > gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in > > my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been > > there, done that? > > > > Chuck > > XL RG 540 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) > > airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap > > leak. > > > > Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will > > greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 > > tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as > > much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about > > 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the > > tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak > > to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill > > up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is > > pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of > > the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking > > lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly > > your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it > > (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a > > water-dish detergent mixture. > > > > The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - > > which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent > > outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the > > single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent > > tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and > > create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different > > fuel levels in the tank. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we > > continue to get these reports from the flying population > > regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! > > > > I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump > > tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through > > the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a > > transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low > > fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see > > little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby > > assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the > > strake tanks. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ronnie Brown > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the > > three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or > > fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. > > And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same > > level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the > > sump tank full and the alarm off. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Rene', > > > > I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted > > accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off > > valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The > > result will be that the vent system can allow the main > > strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the > > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > > sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the > > initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump > > tank (before engine start). > > > > Keith Hallsten > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rene Dugas > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Thanks Jack, > > > > I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a > > vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the > > tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and > > rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage > > into the line but wanted to glean info from the > > informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are > > connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. > > Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine > > builders told me significant fluctuations with the > > engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were > > available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be > > in the line but I don't see how. Thanks > > > > Rene' > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack > > Sheehan > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > > > > > Rene' > > > > I can not say much about the low fuel light except > > that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not > > extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the > > plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut > > off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my > > sump warning light durin the test flight period by > > getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose > > over and maintain a dive for enough time for the > > sump light to start to flicker The low pressure > > warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I > > have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good > > news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news > > is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the > > lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system > > with low sensitivity you never see it. They have > > sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line > > which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is > > a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure > > system. I will let you know when I get some free > > time to install it. > > > > Jack > > > > N55XL > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 18:14:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:14:55 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? Message-ID: <191.1d07df26.2c516e0f@aol.com> --part1_191.1d07df26.2c516e0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off valve and transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the fuel sump We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked often. During the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust. Mack --part1_191.1d07df26.2c516e0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John
In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off valve an= d
transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the fuel su= mp We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked often. Durin= g the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust.
Mack --part1_191.1d07df26.2c516e0f_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 18:35:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:35:23 -0500 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got a perfect solution. Install a fuel gauge in each wing tank. Feed the output from each gauge into a "rudder autopilot". Let the autopilot fly the airplane as needed to keep the fuel tanks level. Kinda toungue in cheek. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:11 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Scott, > > Good idea. I'll give that a look-see. In turns, I feel lucky if > I keep the > ball anywhere near the lubber lines, but in straight and near-level, that > should be easy to see. > > If a person thinks about the problem a little (which always gives me a > headache), it would only take a wing being a couple inches low to > make quite > a difference in fuel feed between the tanks. > > I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0, will I have to fly in a > slight slip to keep my right tank feeding? Or will the usual > variations of > flight continue to keep the sump filled as the right wing goes up > momentarily? If it will, then no problem....except, of course, > when I turn > a right base onto final with a quartering head wind from the right. My > rough calculations (and bad luck) indicate I would run out of > fuel about 1/2 > mile short of the threshold. My headache is getting worse. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:56 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Chuck, > > I'd bet your plane is not trimmed correctly. I had imbalance tanks after > flying a short while when I first bought my plane. I futzed with the > caps. no change. > > The ball was not quite centered within the lubber lines when I was > flying straight and level. > > So I tried this. I flew a while until the tanks were 5-6 gallons > different, then I held a rudder in to put the ball on the opposite side > it was sitting on but all the way on the other side of the lubber line. > Flew a very short while and the tanks evened out. > > If you shim out the correct rudder so the ball is exactly in the middle > I think your imbalance will be cured. Its a simple fix, just shim out > the correct rudder to get the ball centered. Its an easy thing to try, I > used a dab of JB Weld to shim it out. > > Scott > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential > > is almost expected. > > > > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the > > right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank > > or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for > > gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless > ballast in > > my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been > > there, done that? > > > > Chuck > > XL RG 540 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) > > airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap > > leak. > > > > Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will > > greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 > > tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as > > much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about > > 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the > > tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak > > to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill > > up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is > > pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of > > the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking > > lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly > > your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it > > (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a > > water-dish detergent mixture. > > > > The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - > > which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent > > outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the > > single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent > > tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and > > create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different > > fuel levels in the tank. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we > > continue to get these reports from the flying population > > regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! > > > > I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump > > tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through > > the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a > > transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low > > fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see > > little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby > > assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the > > strake tanks. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ronnie Brown > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the > > three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or > > fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. > > And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same > > level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the > > sump tank full and the alarm off. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Rene', > > > > I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted > > accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off > > valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The > > result will be that the vent system can allow the main > > strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the > > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > > sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the > > initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump > > tank (before engine start). > > > > Keith Hallsten > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rene Dugas > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Thanks Jack, > > > > I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a > > vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the > > tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and > > rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage > > into the line but wanted to glean info from the > > informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are > > connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. > > Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine > > builders told me significant fluctuations with the > > engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were > > available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be > > in the line but I don't see how. Thanks > > > > Rene' > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack > > Sheehan > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > > > > > Rene' > > > > I can not say much about the low fuel light except > > that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not > > extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the > > plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut > > off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my > > sump warning light durin the test flight period by > > getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose > > over and maintain a dive for enough time for the > > sump light to start to flicker The low pressure > > warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I > > have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good > > news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news > > is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the > > lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system > > with low sensitivity you never see it. They have > > sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line > > which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is > > a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure > > system. I will let you know when I get some free > > time to install it. > > > > Jack > > > > N55XL > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 18:31:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:31:34 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <3F2017F5.93FBFA66@dixie-net.com> --------------75A0F70C12756DCC8A972453 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My low fuel light also comes on intermittently. I just checked for cap leaks. I didn't see any, but I wasn't able to get much pressure by blowing. My tanks are low and I think it would be best to test when the tanks are full so one doesn't have to blow so much. My cap o-rings have a thick, pasty grease on them and I prefer not to dilute/replace this with thinner vasoline. Anyone know where I can get the thicker grease? John Chuck Jensen wrote: > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some > differential is almost expected.Though I've never gone there, what > happens when left tank is 0 and the right is 9 gallons? Will the rest > of the fuel draw from the right tank or will I have to pull off on the > side of the road and hitch a ride for gas? I'd hate to think I was > carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in my tanks but I'm not > (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been there, done > that?ChuckXL RG 540 --------------75A0F70C12756DCC8A972453 Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My low fuel light also comes on intermittently. I just checked for cap leaks. I didn't see any, but I wasn't able to get much pressure by blowing. My tanks are low and I think it would be best to test when the tanks are full so one doesn't have to blow so much. My cap o-rings have a thick, pasty grease on them and I prefer not to dilute/replace this with thinner vasoline. Anyone know where I can get the thicker grease?
John
Chuck Jensen wrote:
Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential is almost expected.Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been there, done that?ChuckXL RG 540
--------------75A0F70C12756DCC8A972453-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 18:59:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:59:15 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Message-ID: <19f.184caa57.2c517873@aol.com> --part1_19f.184caa57.2c517873_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is much like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated every 5 minutes and includes both graphic and text information (METARS and TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting station. There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is intersted I will give more detail. Bob Wood N658SE --part1_19f.184caa57.2c517873_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installe= d in my Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is muc= h like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated every 5 m= inutes and includes both graphic and text information (METARS and TAF,= etc.) Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting stati= on.

There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is intersted I w= ill give more detail.

Bob Wood
N658SE --part1_19f.184caa57.2c517873_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 19:03:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:03:33 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <191.1d07df26.2c516e0f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F201F75.A09790AB@dixie-net.com> --------------1022BC5F049FB41740CE22F9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks. My plumbing is currently all metal. It will be easier add the filter using a hose connection. Will I be compromising with a hose connection? John MMurp16900@aol.com wrote: > Hi John > In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off > valve and > transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the > fuel sump We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked > often. During the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust. > Mack --------------1022BC5F049FB41740CE22F9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks. My plumbing is currently all metal. It will be easier add the filter using a hose connection. Will I be compromising with a hose connection?
John
MMurp16900@aol.com wrote:
Hi John
In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off valve and
transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the fuel sump We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked often. During the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust.
Mack
--------------1022BC5F049FB41740CE22F9-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 19:25:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:25:09 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Tank Leak Tests Message-ID: <1ce.e634786.2c517e85@aol.com> --part1_1ce.e634786.2c517e85_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst checking my tanks for leaks, I developed a method for getting a 'little more pressure than I could blow by mouth. I purchased a bag of those big party balloons. I found that 1 balloon did not supply any more pressure than I could blow by mouth, so I put one balloon inside another and filled the inner with an air compressor. That supplied a nice constant pressure without the risk of blowing up the tanks. It also minimizes the leaking through the balloon skin. This allowed me to find the few pinhole leaks pretty quickly by myself. It also helps make sure the fuel caps are sealing correctly if you insure all other outlets are clamped off. Kurt Winker --part1_1ce.e634786.2c517e85_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whilst checking my tanks for leaks, I developed a meth= od for getting a 'little more pressure than I could blow by mouth.
I purchased a bag of those big party balloons. I found that 1 balloon did no= t supply any more pressure than I could blow by mouth, so I put one balloon=20= inside another and filled the inner with an air compressor. That suppl= ied a nice constant pressure without the risk of blowing up the tanks. It al= so minimizes the leaking through the balloon skin.

This allowed me to find the few pinhole leaks pretty quickly by myself. It a= lso helps make sure the fuel caps are sealing correctly if you insure all ot= her outlets are clamped off.

Kurt Winker --part1_1ce.e634786.2c517e85_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 19:27:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alfons Hubmann) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:27:17 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 In-Reply-To: <19f.184caa57.2c517873@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c35211$3680acb0$9b22a2d9@ah1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C35221.FA097CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob=20 =20 - Would this WSI-AV-100 work in Europe as Well? =20 - What is the cost involved? =20 Best regards, Alfons =20 Alfons Hubmann CAT City Air Team HB-YHV - Velocity173FG - S/N92 Sternengasschen 1 P.O. Box 6620=20 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von SlvEgl99@aol.com Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2003 19:59 An: Reflector@awpi.com Betreff: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is much like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated every 5 minutes and includes both graphic and text information (METARS and TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting station. There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is intersted I will give more detail. Bob Wood N658SE=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C35221.FA097CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nachricht
Bob=20

-=20 Would this WSI-AV-100 work in Europe as Well?

-=20 What is the cost = involved?

Best=20 regards,

Alfons

Alfons=20 Hubmann

CAT City Air Team
HB-YHV  =20 - Velocity173FG   - =20 S/N92
Sternengässchen=20 1
P.O.=20 Box 6620
CH-3001=20 Berne, Switzerland

Tel:      +41 31 = 901 22=20 66
Fax:     = +41 31=20 901 11 40
Mob:    +41 79 344 83=20 83
-----Ursprüngliche = Nachricht-----
Von:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag = von=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2003=20 19:59
An: Reflector@awpi.com
Betreff: REFLECTOR:WSI=20 AV-100

Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system = installed in=20 my Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is = much like=20 whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated every 5 = minutes=20 and includes both graphic and text information (METARS and TAF, = etc.)=20 Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting = station.=20

There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is = intersted I will give more detail.

Bob Wood
N658SE=20
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C35221.FA097CB0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 20:05:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:05:42 -0400 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: Jerry, you are not confused about that. However, if you're like me, the only time I'm assured of a perfectly coordinated turn is for a fraction of a second as I transition from a slip to a skid. Seriously though, it seems that the Velocity is pretty adept at maintaining coordinated turns with minimal pilot input compared to some of the Kansas Cans. No? Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jerry.Brainard@anthem.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Just a small point about the fuel flow in a turn. If the turn is coordinated I would expect that the flow would not be changed since the forces are all in balance. As I recall, you can set a glass of liquid on the console and it will be level an continue to be level throughout any coordinated maneuver. Am I confused on this? "Brett Ferrell" .net> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light reflector-admin@t vbf.org 07/24/03 11:29 AM Please respond to reflector Theoretically? You should not have to, if the wings are approximately level the head pressure of the strake with fuel "should" keep the sump full as long as it can feed the flow the engine requires. In fact, it will back-feed the "empty" stake to the level it contains (again assuming adequate flow), so that strake will never be truly empty (fluids seek their own level, everything else being equal). That's the whole point of having a sump rather than two separate lines to the engine, the tanks should feed about equally, and should be able to use all of both tanks. If the engine could outdraw the gravity flow from a single strake, it would try to suck air through the vent or the other strake drain line, and that would, well, suck.... Worse, even if it couldn't pull air all of the way to the engine, as the head pressure on the fuel pump sags, it could cavitate and become ineffective long before that. Does anybody know if aircraft fuel pumps can operate without head pressure on the inlet? A turn towards the full strake could get a little exciting, but the sump should hold enough buffer to outlast a turn, but this is exactly a situation where the sump needs to vent air inorder to refill, though assuming the other tank is dry it could vent through that line. The only things that should affect the rate of flow between the tanks is if the wings aren't level (check your ball), a leak (through the cap or otherwise - which should only matter if the vent lines can't equalize the pressure), or if there's a big difference in the line losses in the fuel drain lines between the strakes (shouldn't be the case, but could be if there were debris on your strake drain screen). Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Scott, > > Good idea. I'll give that a look-see. In turns, I feel lucky if I keep the > ball anywhere near the lubber lines, but in straight and near-level, that > should be easy to see. > > If a person thinks about the problem a little (which always gives me a > headache), it would only take a wing being a couple inches low to make quite > a difference in fuel feed between the tanks. > > I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0, will I have to fly in a > slight slip to keep my right tank feeding? Or will the usual variations of > flight continue to keep the sump filled as the right wing goes up > momentarily? If it will, then no problem....except, of course, when I turn > a right base onto final with a quartering head wind from the right. My > rough calculations (and bad luck) indicate I would run out of fuel about 1/2 > mile short of the threshold. My headache is getting worse. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:56 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Chuck, > > I'd bet your plane is not trimmed correctly. I had imbalance tanks after > flying a short while when I first bought my plane. I futzed with the > caps. no change. > > The ball was not quite centered within the lubber lines when I was > flying straight and level. > > So I tried this. I flew a while until the tanks were 5-6 gallons > different, then I held a rudder in to put the ball on the opposite side > it was sitting on but all the way on the other side of the lubber line. > Flew a very short while and the tanks evened out. > > If you shim out the correct rudder so the ball is exactly in the middle > I think your imbalance will be cured. Its a simple fix, just shim out > the correct rudder to get the ball centered. Its an easy thing to try, I > used a dab of JB Weld to shim it out. > > Scott > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential > > is almost expected. > > > > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the > > right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank > > or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for > > gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in > > my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been > > there, done that? > > > > Chuck > > XL RG 540 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) > > airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap > > leak. > > > > Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will > > greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 > > tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as > > much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about > > 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the > > tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak > > to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill > > up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is > > pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of > > the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking > > lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly > > your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it > > (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a > > water-dish detergent mixture. > > > > The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - > > which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent > > outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the > > single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent > > tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and > > create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different > > fuel levels in the tank. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we > > continue to get these reports from the flying population > > regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! > > > > I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump > > tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through > > the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a > > transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low > > fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see > > little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby > > assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the > > strake tanks. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ronnie Brown > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the > > three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or > > fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. > > And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same > > level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the > > sump tank full and the alarm off. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Rene', > > > > I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted > > accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off > > valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The > > result will be that the vent system can allow the main > > strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the > > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > > sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the > > initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump > > tank (before engine start). > > > > Keith Hallsten > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rene Dugas > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Thanks Jack, > > > > I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a > > vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the > > tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and > > rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage > > into the line but wanted to glean info from the > > informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are > > connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. > > Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine > > builders told me significant fluctuations with the > > engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were > > available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be > > in the line but I don't see how. Thanks > > > > Rene' > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack > > Sheehan > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > > > > > Rene' > > > > I can not say much about the low fuel light except > > that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not > > extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the > > plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut > > off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my > > sump warning light durin the test flight period by > > getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose > > over and maintain a dive for enough time for the > > sump light to start to flicker The low pressure > > warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I > > have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good > > news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news > > is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the > > lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system > > with low sensitivity you never see it. They have > > sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line > > which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is > > a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure > > system. I will let you know when I get some free > > time to install it. > > > > Jack > > > > N55XL > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 20:06:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:06:52 -0400 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: Where can I order one of those. The Velo is still way-short on gadgets! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brian Michalk Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light I've got a perfect solution. Install a fuel gauge in each wing tank. Feed the output from each gauge into a "rudder autopilot". Let the autopilot fly the airplane as needed to keep the fuel tanks level. Kinda toungue in cheek. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:11 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Scott, > > Good idea. I'll give that a look-see. In turns, I feel lucky if > I keep the > ball anywhere near the lubber lines, but in straight and near-level, that > should be easy to see. > > If a person thinks about the problem a little (which always gives me a > headache), it would only take a wing being a couple inches low to > make quite > a difference in fuel feed between the tanks. > > I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0, will I have to fly in a > slight slip to keep my right tank feeding? Or will the usual > variations of > flight continue to keep the sump filled as the right wing goes up > momentarily? If it will, then no problem....except, of course, > when I turn > a right base onto final with a quartering head wind from the right. My > rough calculations (and bad luck) indicate I would run out of > fuel about 1/2 > mile short of the threshold. My headache is getting worse. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:56 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Chuck, > > I'd bet your plane is not trimmed correctly. I had imbalance tanks after > flying a short while when I first bought my plane. I futzed with the > caps. no change. > > The ball was not quite centered within the lubber lines when I was > flying straight and level. > > So I tried this. I flew a while until the tanks were 5-6 gallons > different, then I held a rudder in to put the ball on the opposite side > it was sitting on but all the way on the other side of the lubber line. > Flew a very short while and the tanks evened out. > > If you shim out the correct rudder so the ball is exactly in the middle > I think your imbalance will be cured. Its a simple fix, just shim out > the correct rudder to get the ball centered. Its an easy thing to try, I > used a dab of JB Weld to shim it out. > > Scott > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O > > rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the > > locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated > > differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that > > differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential > > is almost expected. > > > > Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the > > right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank > > or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for > > gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless > ballast in > > my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been > > there, done that? > > > > Chuck > > XL RG 540 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) > > airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap > > leak. > > > > Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will > > greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 > > tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as > > much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about > > 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the > > tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak > > to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill > > up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is > > pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of > > the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking > > lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly > > your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it > > (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a > > water-dish detergent mixture. > > > > The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - > > which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent > > outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the > > single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent > > tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and > > create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different > > fuel levels in the tank. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we > > continue to get these reports from the flying population > > regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! > > > > I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump > > tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through > > the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a > > transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low > > fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see > > little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby > > assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the > > strake tanks. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ronnie Brown > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the > > three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or > > fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. > > And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same > > level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the > > sump tank full and the alarm off. > > > > Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: KeithHallsten > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Rene', > > > > I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted > > accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off > > valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The > > result will be that the vent system can allow the main > > strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the > > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > > sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the > > initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump > > tank (before engine start). > > > > Keith Hallsten > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rene Dugas > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Thanks Jack, > > > > I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a > > vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the > > tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and > > rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage > > into the line but wanted to glean info from the > > informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are > > connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. > > Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine > > builders told me significant fluctuations with the > > engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were > > available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be > > in the line but I don't see how. Thanks > > > > Rene' > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack > > Sheehan > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > > > > > Rene' > > > > I can not say much about the low fuel light except > > that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not > > extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the > > plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut > > off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my > > sump warning light durin the test flight period by > > getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose > > over and maintain a dive for enough time for the > > sump light to start to flicker The low pressure > > warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I > > have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good > > news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news > > is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the > > lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system > > with low sensitivity you never see it. They have > > sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line > > which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is > > a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure > > system. I will let you know when I get some free > > time to install it. > > > > Jack > > > > N55XL > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 20:03:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <007c01c35193$8df08b60$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <20030724190307.92458.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> FWIW - If you were to block off the fuel lines going from the strakes to the sump, drain your sump completely, close the sump vent, and then release the fuel lines, the sump would refill almost completely. The air in the sump simply vents via the fuel inlet lines from whichever strake is at a lower pressure. The pocket of air at the top of a sumps in planes without sump vents is just air trapped above the fuel inlet lines. Pat --- KeithHallsten wrote: > Personally, I try to fly coordinated turns, so the > strake drains to the sump tank stay covered with > fuel. However, if a little air were introduced to > the sump tank it would not interfere with the > operation of the fuel system - you would just have a > bubble in the sump tank. If the bubble were large, > it might make its way back into one of the strake > tanks, but that's of little concern, as long as the > volume of air remains only a percentage of the > volume of the sump tank. The next time you fill the > tanks, just exercise the sump vent valve to allow > any trapped air to escape. > > Keith __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 20:22:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:22:42 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel Message-ID: <000001c35218$f45a30b0$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C351DE.47FB58B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recall awhile back in a discussion of rudder travel and braking; someone suggested putting spacer blocks between the canard bulkhead and the pedal assembly mounting block, to space the pedals further from the bulkhead. I believe the objective was to provide more rudder travel before the brakes applied. I'm not sure what I missed, but wondered if that also required replacement of the push tubes to allow more free travel. Maybe that person recalls and can remind us of what that was about, and how to achieve it. Thanks, Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C351DE.47FB58B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I recall awhile back in a discussion of rudder = travel and braking; someone suggested putting spacer blocks between the canard = bulkhead and the pedal assembly mounting block, to space the pedals further from = the bulkhead. I believe the objective was to provide more rudder = travel before the brakes applied.

I’m not sure what I missed, but wondered if = that also required replacement of the push tubes to allow more free = travel. Maybe that person recalls and can remind us of what that was about, and = how to achieve it.

Thanks,

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C351DE.47FB58B0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 20:48:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:48:36 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... Message-ID: + shipping for those interested... _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 21:13:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:13:34 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 References: <002d01c35211$3680acb0$9b22a2d9@ah1> Message-ID: <006601c35220$0fdd5360$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C351FE.884E9420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NachrichtYes Bob, tell us more! High on my list of stuff to look at = while at Oshkosh is in-cockpit weather systems. THANKS Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alfons Hubmann=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 2:27 PM Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Bob=20 - Would this WSI-AV-100 work in Europe as Well? - What is the cost involved? Best regards, Alfons Alfons Hubmann CAT City Air Team HB-YHV - Velocity173FG - S/N92 Sterneng=E4sschen 1 P.O. Box 6620=20 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im = Auftrag von SlvEgl99@aol.com Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2003 19:59 An: Reflector@awpi.com Betreff: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my = Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is much = like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated every 5 = minutes and includes both graphic and text information (METARS and TAF, = etc.) Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting = station.=20 There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is = intersted I will give more detail. Bob Wood N658SE=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C351FE.884E9420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nachricht
Yes Bob, tell us more! High on my list of = stuff to look=20 at while at Oshkosh is in-cockpit weather systems.

THANKS

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alfons = Hubmann=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 2:27=20 PM

Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:WSI = AV-100

Bob=20

-=20 Would this WSI-AV-100 work in Europe as Well?

-=20 What is the cost = involved?

Best=20 regards,

Alfons

Alfons=20 Hubmann

CAT City Air Team
HB-YHV  =20 - Velocity173FG   - =20 S/N92
Sterneng=E4sschen=20 1
P.O.=20 Box 6620
CH-3001=20 Berne, Switzerland

Tel:      +41 = 31 901 22=20 66
Fax:     = +41=20 31 901 11 40
Mob:    +41 79 344 83=20 83
-----Urspr=FCngliche = Nachricht-----
Von:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im = Auftrag von=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2003=20 19:59
An: Reflector@awpi.com
Betreff: = REFLECTOR:WSI=20 AV-100

Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system = installed=20 in my Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture = is much=20 like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated = every 5=20 minutes and includes both graphic and text information (METARS = and=20 TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any = reporting=20 station.

There are some wrinkles in installing the system. = If anyone=20 is intersted I will give more detail.

Bob = Wood
N658SE=20
------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C351FE.884E9420-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 21:16:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:16:23 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <191.1d07df26.2c516e0f@aol.com> <3F201F75.A09790AB@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <007201c35220$7424b660$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C351FE.ECB60240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, No problem with the rubber hose connections. Just get some high quality = fuel hose from your local auto parts house and use screw clamps to make = sure nothing comes loose. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Dibble=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 2:03 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? Thanks. My plumbing is currently all metal. It will be easier add = the filter using a hose connection. Will I be compromising with a hose = connection?=20 John=20 MMurp16900@aol.com wrote:=20 Hi John=20 In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off = valve and=20 transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the = fuel sump We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked = often. During the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust.=20 Mack ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C351FE.ECB60240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,

No problem with the rubber hose connections. Just = get some=20 high quality fuel hose from your local auto parts house and use screw = clamps to=20 make sure nothing comes loose.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Dibble
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 2:03=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel = Filter?

Thanks. My plumbing is currently all metal. = It will=20 be easier add the filter using a hose connection. Will I be = compromising=20 with a hose connection?=20
John=20
MMurp16900@aol.com wrote: =
Hi John
In my opinion every composite = aircraft should=20 have a fuel shut off valve and
transparent fuel = filter They=20 should be mounted at the outlet of the fuel sump We installed two = filters in=20 parallel. They should be checked often. During the first 25 hours we = had a=20 lot of fiber glass dust.
Mack
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C351FE.ECB60240-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 21:36:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:36:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel References: <000001c35218$f45a30b0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <00ae01c35223$3ea5eba0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C35201.B727F540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, One thing you need to check before you relocate the pedals. The manual = doesn't (or mine didn't) say anything about securing the nyloflow tubing = where it goes through the firewall. If this is not secured, you will = get some lost motion as the rudder cable is pulled. If yours is not = secured, use some 100 grit sand paper and roughen the nyloflow, and use = some flox/epoxy to make sure the nyloflow doesn't slip. Then check if = you have enough travel. I have a 173 with Alan Shaw's wings with hidden rudder horns. My = rudders deflect fully just as my brakes engage. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: reflector=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel I recall awhile back in a discussion of rudder travel and braking; = someone suggested putting spacer blocks between the canard bulkhead and = the pedal assembly mounting block, to space the pedals further from the = bulkhead. I believe the objective was to provide more rudder travel = before the brakes applied. I'm not sure what I missed, but wondered if that also required = replacement of the push tubes to allow more free travel. Maybe that = person recalls and can remind us of what that was about, and how to = achieve it. Thanks, Al ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C35201.B727F540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,

One thing you need to check before you relocate the=20 pedals. The manual doesn't (or mine didn't) say anything about = securing=20 the nyloflow tubing where it goes through the firewall. If this is = not=20 secured, you will get some lost motion as the rudder cable is = pulled. If=20 yours is not secured, use some 100 grit sand paper and roughen the = nyloflow, and=20 use some flox/epoxy to make sure the nyloflow doesn't slip. Then = check if=20 you have enough travel.

I have a 173 with Alan Shaw's wings with hidden = rudder=20 horns. My rudders deflect fully just as my brakes=20 engage.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
To: reflector

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 3:22=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal = travel

I recall awhile back = in a=20 discussion of rudder travel and braking; someone suggested putting = spacer=20 blocks between the canard bulkhead and the pedal assembly mounting = block, to=20 space the pedals further from the bulkhead. I believe the = objective was=20 to provide more rudder travel before the brakes = applied.

I’m not sure = what I missed, but=20 wondered if that also required replacement of the push tubes to allow = more=20 free travel. Maybe that person recalls and can remind us of what = that=20 was about, and how to achieve it.

Thanks,

Al
------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C35201.B727F540-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 22:16:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:16:57 EDT Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Message-ID: --part1_ac.44c632b9.2c51a6c9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know about European coverage yet. Try www.wsi.com I do see that they have an office in Birmingham, UK. By the way, WSI is the system that a lot of FBO's use here in the States for pilot flight planning. The cost was about $3,200 plus about $500 to wire and setup. It also has a subscription fee of $50/month for unlimited use, but one has to sign a one year contract.. No per use cost. It updates every 5 minutes while operating. There is an effort to get them to go to a monthly or quarterly basis for those who do not fly in the wintertime or for some other reason. While $50/ month seems a hefty fee, nothing can replace weather knowledge, particularly when flying in Florida in the summertime. --part1_ac.44c632b9.2c51a6c9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know about European coverage yet. Try www.wsi.com I do see that they have an office in=20= Birmingham, UK. By the way, WSI is the system that a lot of FBO's use here i= n the States for pilot flight planning.

The cost was about $3,200 plus about $500 to wire and setup. It also has a s= ubscription fee of $50/month for unlimited use, but one has to sign a one ye= ar contract.. No per use cost. It updates every 5 minutes while operating.&n= bsp;

There is an effort to get them to go to a monthly or quarterly basis for tho= se who do not fly in the wintertime or for some other reason.

While $50/ month seems a hefty fee, nothing can replace weather knowledge, p= articularly when flying in Florida in the summertime. --part1_ac.44c632b9.2c51a6c9_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 22:18:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:18:44 EDT Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: --part1_d3.203b6c17.2c51a734_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck, Ye son coordinated turns with the Velocity, except I might add when at low speed/high angle of attack. Then it takes some fancy footwork. Bob Wood --part1_d3.203b6c17.2c51a734_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck,

Ye son coordinated turns with the Velocity, except I might add when at low s= peed/high angle of attack. Then it takes some fancy footwork.

Bob Wood --part1_d3.203b6c17.2c51a734_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 22:21:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:21:37 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel Message-ID: <162.23a46f2b.2c51a7e1@aol.com> --part1_162.23a46f2b.2c51a7e1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I recall this also had to do with upgrading Matco brakes as the larger wheel cylinders take a longer stroke on the master cylinder to move the required brake fluid. Bob Wood --part1_162.23a46f2b.2c51a7e1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I recall this also had to do with upgrading Matco b= rakes as the larger wheel cylinders take a longer stroke on the master cylin= der to move the required brake fluid.

Bob Wood --part1_162.23a46f2b.2c51a7e1_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 22:32:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:32:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:RUDDER PEDALS Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3522B.0C513890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone one know when the new style rudder pedals (with toe brakes) will = be available to retrofit our Vs? ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3522B.0C513890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone = one know when=20 the new style rudder pedals (with toe brakes) will be available to = retrofit our=20 Vs?
------_=_NextPart_001_01C3522B.0C513890-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 22:32:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:32:41 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Message-ID: <136.224dfc10.2c51aa79@aol.com> --part1_136.224dfc10.2c51aa79_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ronny, First impressions are that the WSI interfaces with the MX-20 flawlessly, displays a great weather picture, also displays text when asked. It is simply another button on the function key of the WSI, like turning on the lightening detector. It is satellite driven, and gets an update every 5 minutes. In between it shows the decay time of the current data. Weight is about 5 lbs, with a GPS type antenna. I mounted the box on the left top of the canard, the antenna in the canard hatch with a 10"x10" ground plane. Yes, I have to disconnect the antenna wire every time I remove the hatch, but it does give me an opportunity to use this valuable geography under the hatch. Today if I were just in the process of building I would trash can the WX-500 lightning detector and go only with the WSI. Look it over at Oshkosh. By the way it will interface with a number of MFD's and other displays, including the IPAQ I think. As I mentioned, $50 per month is kind of high, but I spend more on beer and cigarettes, neither of which is designed to prolong life. Bob Wood N658SE --part1_136.224dfc10.2c51aa79_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ronny,

First impressions are that the WSI interfaces with the MX-20 flawlessly, dis= plays a great weather picture, also displays text when asked. It is simply a= nother button on the function key of the WSI, like turning on the lightening= detector. It is satellite driven, and gets an update every 5 minutes.= In between it shows the decay time of the current data. Weight is about 5 l= bs, with a GPS type antenna. I mounted the box on the left top of the canard= , the antenna in the canard hatch with a 10"x10" ground plane. Yes, I have t= o disconnect the antenna wire every time I remove the hatch, but it does giv= e me an opportunity to use this valuable geography under the hatch.

Today if I were just in the process of building I would trash can the WX-500= lightning detector and go only with the WSI. Look it over at Oshkosh.

By the way it will interface with a number of MFD's and other displays, incl= uding the IPAQ I think.

As I mentioned, $50 per month is kind of high, but I spend more on beer and=20= cigarettes, neither of which is designed to prolong life.

Bob Wood
N658SE --part1_136.224dfc10.2c51aa79_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 22:36:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:36:46 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel References: <162.23a46f2b.2c51a7e1@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ee01c3522b$aee01be0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C3520A.277A8F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got my calipers upgraded and didn't have the problem with poor travel = except for some air that got trapped between the pucks. I removed the = caliper and oriented the caliper vertically, back bled the system and it = all works great. Ronnie=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:21 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel As I recall this also had to do with upgrading Matco brakes as the = larger wheel cylinders take a longer stroke on the master cylinder to = move the required brake fluid. Bob Wood=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C3520A.277A8F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I got my calipers upgraded and didn't have the = problem with=20 poor travel except for some air that got trapped between the = pucks. I=20 removed the caliper and oriented the caliper vertically, back bled the = system=20 and it all works great.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 5:21=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rudder = pedal=20 travel

As I recall this also had to do with upgrading = Matco brakes=20 as the larger wheel cylinders take a longer stroke on the master = cylinder to=20 move the required brake fluid.

Bob Wood=20
------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C3520A.277A8F80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 23:40:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:40:13 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! In-Reply-To: <1059011182.3f1f3a6ed4bb4@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: <000001c35234$8be4a3a0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> I agree a shut off valve may not be the safest choice. Your assessment of inadequate flow into the sump from one or both main tanks thereby lowering the level of the fuel in the vent line above the sump could introduce air into the sump. That is why I tried to SLIGHTLY increase my pressure in the vent line by increasing the bevel and length of the vent tube overboard as well as its size to 1/2". No change. Still comes on and flickers only in low flow cruise at about 13.5 to 14 gal/hr lean. I covered the fuel lines in the engine compartment with fire sleeve to be sure I was not bubbling boiling fuel back into the sump or the fuel line. I have quickly removed my lower cowl after running the engine for 15 minutes on the ground and the engine compartment is not very hot and I can hold the fuel lines easily in my hand. Remember the light only flashes on in smooth air and level flight. Thanks for the mental exercises. Keep them coming. Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! Please, please, please do not do this (install a vent shutoff valve)! Air must enter the system as the fuel drains out or 1 of 2 really bad things will happen. 1) Pop-Bottle plug effect - where the gas glug-glug-glugs to your engine, or stops altogther as air cannot replace the lost fluid-or- 2) The tanks will crush as the fuel pulls vacuum on the tank and the outside air pressure pops the strake open Having seen a 30,000 industrial tank get crushed like a soda can from a plugged vent & overflow line, I'm horrified by the idea of this happening in flight. Allowing air into the tanks is the primary purpose of the vent, and why you should install the check valve to allow cabin air into the tanks (but no gas-vapor into the cabin) should the external vent get blocked by ice. If there's an adequate fuel level in the stakes, an air bubble should not be able to form in the sump, as the head pressure from the strakes should fill it to the level (in the vent line) of the strakes (fluids seek their own level and all). If a bubble were to form it would indicate that the fuel pump is pulling the level faster than the tanks can replenish it. Brett Quoting Bob Kuc : > Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > I was think about that also. However, if you are on > the low side of > fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard > stake would rush to > the end. Would that not introduce air into the sump > tank that you would > have no way of relieving because you have the vent > blocked off? > > Bob > I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve > between the sump tank > and the vent manifold. The result will be that the > vent system can > allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't > introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > sump tank causes > more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" > of air is allowed > to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 23:46:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:46:18 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <002d01c351d9$335d2000$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000101c35235$656e7d30$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C3520B.7C987530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with all of the above and all have been done. No leak. But Occasional flicker. I place a balloon over my vent with a rubber band and left it three days. The Barometric pressure was little changed through out and the balloon stayed inflated. No Bubbles and no fuel leaks. You are beginning to see my perplexed but not anxious state. Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:46 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap leak. Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a water-dish detergent mixture. The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the tank. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: KeithHallsten To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we continue to get these reports from the flying population regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the strake tanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: KeithHallsten To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene', I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message ----- From: Rene Dugas To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don't see how. Thanks Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to install it. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C3520B.7C987530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

I agree with all of the above and = all have been done. No leak. But Occasional flicker. I place a = balloon over my vent with a rubber band and left it three days. The Barometric pressure = was little changed through out and the balloon stayed inflated. No Bubbles = and no fuel leaks. You are beginning to see my perplexed but not anxious = state.

Rene’

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Thursday, July 24, = 2003 5:46 AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

I think the two primary reasons for the fuel = tank imbalance are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a = fuel tank cap leak.

Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" = instead of the original 1/4" will greatly improve the impacts from (2) = a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 tubing has double the area of a 1/4" = tube and will pass twice as much air. The reason this matters is that we = are only talking about 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the = top of the tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of = a cap leak to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is = pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of the = cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking lever that needs to = be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly your caps are = sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it (keep the pressure less than = 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a water-dish detergent = mixture.

The original Velocity design had separate = vents for each tank - which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to = create two vent outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! = Hence the single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent = tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank = vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the = tank.

Ronnie

----- Original Message = -----

From: KeithHallsten

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Yes! Everything you = say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we continue to get = these reports from the flying population regarding odd behavior of the = fuel/vent system!

I think that at times the = vent system supplies air to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than = the longer path through the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. = It's probably a transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the = pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby = assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the strake = tanks.

   =

----- Original Message = -----

From: Ronnie = Brown

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

If the vent lines slope upward to the = manifold from the three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or = fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in = the sump tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main = tanks, thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm = off.

Ronnie

----- Original Message = -----

From: KeithHallsten

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene',

I'm not flying yet, so my = comments can be discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent = shut-off valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will = be that the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent = line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before = engine start).

Keith = Hallsten



----- Original Message = -----

From: Rene = Dugas

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Thanks = Jack,

I felt that = maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but = not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them = at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean = info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are = connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the = Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump = are common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don’t see = how. Thanks

Rene’

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Jack Sheehan
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:35 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene'

I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I = have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut = off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light = durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the = nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to = flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have = spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine = and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming = pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. = They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in = theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install it.

Jack

N55XL

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C3520B.7C987530-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 23:51:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:51:44 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c35236$2b1872c0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3520C.42426AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, My tanks have never varied more than 4 gallons side to side except when descending for landing from over 5000 ft. when the fuel flow to the front of the tanks. My Vision fuel gages are in the very back of the tanks so they will occasionally read zero in a 1000 ft/min descent but fuel is still feeding from the front lines and the low fuel light has never come on in that situation. Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:08 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Good stuff on the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O rings on the fuel caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the locking lever. During a long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated differential between the tanks, so these efforts might reduce that differential. I wasn't too concerned as I understand some differential is almost expected. Though I've never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the right is 9 gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank or will I have to pull off on the side of the road and hitch a ride for gas? I'd hate to think I was carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) going to find out. Anyone been there, done that? Chuck XL RG 540 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:46 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light I think the two primary reasons for the fuel tank imbalance are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a fuel tank cap leak. Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" instead of the original 1/4" will greatly improve the impacts from (2) a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 tubing has double the area of a 1/4" tube and will pass twice as much air. The reason this matters is that we are only talking about 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the top of the tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of a cap leak to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of the cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking lever that needs to be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly your caps are sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it (keep the pressure less than 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a water-dish detergent mixture. The original Velocity design had separate vents for each tank - which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to create two vent outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! Hence the single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the tank. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: KeithHallsten To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Yes! Everything you say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we continue to get these reports from the flying population regarding odd behavior of the fuel/vent system! I think that at times the vent system supplies air to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than the longer path through the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. It's probably a transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the strake tanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light If the vent lines slope upward to the manifold from the three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in the sump tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main tanks, thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm off. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: KeithHallsten To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene', I'm not flying yet, so my comments can be discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will be that the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message ----- From: Rene Dugas To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Thanks Jack, I felt that maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine pump are common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don't see how. Thanks Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:35 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Rene' I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to install it. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3520C.42426AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Thanks,

My tanks have never varied more = than 4 gallons side to side except when descending for landing from over 5000 = ft. when the fuel flow to the front of the tanks. My Vision fuel gages are = in the very back of the tanks so they will occasionally read zero in a 1000 ft/min = descent but fuel is still feeding from the front lines and the low fuel light = has never come on in that situation.

Rene’

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Thursday, July 24, = 2003 7:08 AM
To: = 'reflector@tvbf.org'
Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Good stuff on = the vent system. I've been greasing (petro jelly) the O rings on the fuel = caps but didn't even think about the O ring on the locking lever. During a = long cruise, I'll get a 9 gallon indicated differential between the tanks, so = these efforts might reduce that differential. I wasn't too concerned as = I understand some differential is almost expected.

Though I've = never gone there, what happens when left tank is 0 and the right is 9 = gallons? Will the rest of the fuel draw from the right tank or will I have to pull off = on the side of the road and hitch a ride for gas? I'd hate to think I was = carrying 9-10 gallons of useless ballast in my tanks but I'm not (intentionally) = going to find out. Anyone been there, done that?

Chuck

XL RG = 540

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Thursday, July 24, = 2003 7:46 AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

I think the two primary reasons for the fuel = tank imbalance are (1) airplane flying out of trim, i.e. one wing low; (2) a = fuel tank cap leak.

Enlarging the vent system to 3/8" = instead of the original 1/4" will greatly improve the impacts from (2) = a leaking fuel cap. 3/8 tubing has double the area of a 1/4" = tube and will pass twice as much air. The reason this matters is that we = are only talking about 2 feet of fuel level from the bottom of the sump to the = top of the tanks. This is less than 1 psi. It doesn't take much of = a cap leak to pull a slight vacuum on that tank which causes that tank to fill up. Keep those O rings vaselined and also make sure the cap is = pulling all the way down (adjust the lock nut on the back side of the = cap). There is also a small O ring on the shaft of the locking lever that needs to = be lubricated. If you want to check how tightly your caps are = sealing, connect a tube to the vent line, blow in it (keep the pressure less than = 1 psi!) and spray the caps with a water-dish detergent = mixture.

The original Velocity design had separate = vents for each tank - which led to lots of problems. It is impossible to = create two vent outlets that have the same static pressure at 200 mph!!! = Hence the single vent system now used. It is also important that the vent = tubing slope upward to the manifold or you can trap some fuel and create a tank = vent pressure imbalance which will lead to different fuel levels in the = tank.

Ronnie

----- Original Message = -----

From: KeithHallsten

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Yes! Everything you = say "SHOULD" be true. Unfortunately, we continue to get = these reports from the flying population regarding odd behavior of the = fuel/vent system!

I think that at times the = vent system supplies air to the sump tank just a TINY bit more easily than = the longer path through the strakes supplies fuel to the sump tank. = It's probably a transient event, just persisting long enough to actuate the "low fuel" warning and scare the bejesus out of the = pilot. I see little risk in shutting the vent line to the sump tank, thereby = assuring that the flow into the sump tank must come from the strake = tanks.

   =

----- Original Message = -----

From: Ronnie = Brown

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:55 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

If the vent lines slope upward to the = manifold from the three tanks, there shouldn't be any problems trapping air or = fuel. The fuel should go down and the vent air goes up. And the fuel in = the sump tank vent should seek the same level as in the fuel in the main = tanks, thereby keeping the sump tank full and the alarm = off.

Ronnie

----- Original Message = -----

From: KeithHallsten

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene',

I'm not flying yet, so my = comments can be discounted accordingly. I plan to install a manual vent = shut-off valve between the sump tank and the vent manifold. The result will = be that the vent system can allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't introduce air into the sump tank. I have a theory that the vent = line to the sump tank causes more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" of air is allowed to escape from the sump tank (before = engine start).

Keith = Hallsten



----- Original Message = -----

From: Rene = Dugas

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:00 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Thanks = Jack,

I felt that = maybe the boundary layer was causing a vacuum allowing air to enter the sump but = not the tanks. I don not want to over pressure my tanks and rupture them = at high pressures. I can splice a gage into the line but wanted to glean = info from the informed (flying) few. Since all three tanks are = connected to the manifold I remain perplexed. Thanks for the info on the = Vision. Two engine builders told me significant fluctuations with the engine = pump are common but no pressure numbers were available. I talked to Lycoming. He air might be in the line but I don't see how. = Thanks

Rene'

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Jack Sheehan
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 4:35 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene'

I can not say much about the low fuel light except that I = have not had that on my XL-RG and I am not extending the vent. Mine is as you described in the plumbing except the vent line under the belly is cut = off almost flush with the fuselage. I have tested my sump warning light = durin the test flight period by getting pretty low on fuel and then pushing the = nose over and maintain a dive for enough time for the sump light to start to = flicker The low pressure warning from the VM1000 is a common indication. I have = spoken with Vision micro about it and the good news is the VM1000 is working fine = and the bad news is the lack of pressure is real. it is the way the lycoming = pump works and if you have an analog system with low sensitivity you never see it. = They have sent me a snubber to install in the sensor line which will in = theory reduce thesensitivity. ther is a similar snubber device in the manifold pressure system. I will let you know when I get some free time to = install it.

Jack

N55XL

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3520C.42426AC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 23:52:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:52:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <002d01c3517c$9e84be40$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000d01c35236$506517e0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3520C.678F0FE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C3520C.678F0FE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C3520C.678F0FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Ronnie, I also changed my lines to 3/8th except the sump which is 1/4th=94 and = the tube exiting the belly is =BD=94 the a PCV valve =93T=94ed into the line = on the firewall. Will pursue. Last 6 hrs of flying pressure drop only occurred for less than 3 second the whole time. Very difficult to diagnose. Rene=92 =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light =20 Rene, =20 You have something really strange going on there. I can think of no good reasons for what is happening. I would be concerned about the low fuel pressure. You should have at least 25 psi at all times, especially at low fuel flows. My fuel pressure is always greater than 25 psi, usually around 27, under all conditions, even idling. =20 The flashing low sump light combined with the low fuel pressure tells me that there is some sort of restriction somewhere, probably in the vent system. =20 =20 My vent system (173 Elite) is similar to yours, all three tanks tied together to a common vent, then the vent goes out the belly, cut toward the front, but mine only sticks out about 3/4 inch. (I did change my vent system to 3/8" tubing, like my Cessna 172.- rather than 1/4" that was specified in the manual ). I also added a one way check valve teed into the vent line going to the bottom of the fuselage just in case a mud dauber got into my vent. =20 I'd keep trouble shooting until you find the cause. Let us know what you find. =20 Ronnie =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rene Dugas =20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:20 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light =20 My Esteemed Colleagues(Experimenters), My low fuel light mounted on the panel attacked to the left upper sump mounted switch comes on in flashes on almost every flight. It never stays on but flashes on in smooth air at cruise mostly but not always over 170 kts. My vent exits the bottom just upstream from the sump and sticks out 1.5 inches with a small bevel to the front and 1/8th inch vent holes x 4 on the draft side. My tanks all connect to a single manifold then exit as per plans out of the belly. I have tested my tank caps and find no leak. I have disassembled the caps and lubricated the two =93o=94 rings. I have extended the vent tube further into the lower slip stream from =BD inch to 1.5 inches with no change. The light has never come on at high fuel flows at low speeds. Usually occurs at lean cruise around 13 to 13.5 gal/hr. IO 540. Engine never falters. Fuel pressure occasionally drops below 16 PSI and the Vision system activates the warning for a single two second cycle the pressure is restored to about 21 psi. =20 Ideas? Thanks, Rene=92 N129RD XL RG ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C3520C.678F0FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Ronnie,

I also changed my lines to 3/8^th except = the sump which is 1/4^th” and the tube exiting the belly is = =BD” the a PCV valve “T”ed into the line on the = firewall.

Will pursue.=A0 Last 6 hrs of flying pressure drop = only occurred for less than 3 second the whole time.=A0 Very difficult to = diagnose.

Rene’

-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 6:44 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Rene,

You have something really strange going on = there. I can think of no good reasons for what is happening. I would be = concerned about the low fuel pressure. You should have at least 25 psi at = all times, especially at low fuel flows. My fuel pressure is always = greater than 25 psi, usually around 27, under all conditions, even = idling.

The flashing low sump light combined with the low fuel pressure tells me that there is some sort of restriction somewhere, = probably in the vent system.

My vent system (173 Elite) is similar to yours, all = three tanks tied together to a common vent, then the vent goes out the belly, = cut toward the front, but mine only sticks out about 3/4 inch. (I did = change my vent system to 3/8" tubing, like my Cessna 172.- rather than = 1/4" that was specified in the manual ).   I also added a one = way check valve teed into the vent line going to the bottom of the fuselage = just in case a mud dauber got into my vent.

I'd keep trouble shooting until you find the = cause. Let us know what you find.

Ronnie

----- = Original Message -----

From: Rene Dugas

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent:= Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

My Esteemed Colleagues(Experimenters),

My low fuel light mounted on the panel attacked to the left upper sump = mounted switch comes on in flashes on almost every flight. It never stays = on but flashes on in smooth air at cruise mostly but not always over 170 kts. My vent exits the bottom just upstream from the sump and = sticks out 1.5 inches with a small bevel to the front and 1/8^th inch = vent holes x 4 on the draft side. My tanks all connect to a single manifold = then exit as per plans out of the belly. I have tested my tank caps and = find no leak. I have disassembled the caps and lubricated the two “o” rings. I have extended the vent tube further into = the lower slip stream from =BD inch to 1.5 inches with no change. The = light has never come on at high fuel flows at low speeds. Usually occurs at = lean cruise around 13 to 13.5 gal/hr. IO 540. Engine never falters. Fuel pressure occasionally drops below 16 PSI and the = Vision system activates the warning for a single two second cycle the pressure = is restored to about 21 psi.

Ideas?

Thanks,

Rene’

N129RD

XL RG

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C3520C.678F0FE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3520C.678F0FE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhKAAeAPcAAJkAM/8zZswAM/8AM/+ZmcwzZv/M/8xmmZkzZmYAM8wzmf+ZzP9mzP+Z//9m mcwAZv8AZv8zmf8Amf8zzP8AzP9m//8z//9QUNYAk5kAZsxmzMwzzMyZ/8xm/8wz/5kzmcwAzMwA /5kAzJkAmcyZzJlmmWYzZmYAmZkzzGYAZpkA/5kz/5lmzDMAM2YzmWYzzGYAzJlm/zMAZmYA/2Yz /8zM/5mZ/5mZzGZmzGZm/2ZmmTMzZjMzmTMAmTMAzDMAzDMz/zMzzABm/wAzzDNm/zNmzAAAZgAA MwAA/wAAmQAzzAAAzDNmmQBmzJnM/2aZ/wAzZmaZzABmmTOZzACZzGbM/zOZ/wAzmQCZ/zPM/wDM /5n//2b//wAzMwD//wDMzACZmWaZmZnMzMz//zPMzGbMzDOZmTNmZgBmZgAzMwD/zDP/zDPMmQDM mWb/zJn/zAD/mTOZZgBmMzNmM2aZZmbMZpn/mWb/ZjOZM5nMmWb/mTP/mTPMZgDMZmbMmQCZZgCZ MzP/ZgD/Zsz/zMz/mZn/Zpn/MwDMMzP/MwDMMzPMMzPMM2b/M2bMMwBmAAAzAACZADPMAGb/AJn/ AGbMAADMADPMADOZAJnMZmaZM5nMMzNmAGaZAJnMAMz/Zsz/M8z/AJmZAMzMAMzMMzMzAGZmAJmZ M8zMZmZmM5mZZszMmf//zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/MAP/MZv/MM8yZM5lmAMyZAP+ZAMxmAJkzAMxm M2YzAP+ZZv9mM/+ZM/9mAMwzAJlmMzMAAGYzM5lmZsyZmZkzM8xmZv/MzP8zM8wzM/9mZmYAAJkA AMwAAP8AAP8zAMyZZv/MmczMzJmZmWZmZjMzMwAAAP///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAeAAAI/wCvrVp1 TWBBgQQHCqxxUOGqYwQNSjMYkWHBY9cmHjyoMWPBVR1rJNzIEWFBaREHohwocqBLkyATKpT4kmJE jwY/TnQp0+VKhi9RIkxJ8mNDkEUtflylFGNBoEYpaoQYNePNkQ0PijTZkaDThhOhbtXINKfXoicJ MuxI9ulRnEs9zpQYtSJapCSRKp1Lsm1bp3uNkiUotKzAnX1PPsXL1ihUrCuHxuRpdqhkhyot28UZ cWfLa1spiiW51utNnURTYn2bNu/UtVkNhu688GLqokTpqj7MGqJauTmVVi3a0aRbtBuF4my5kulu mMpnEq4pU6f12g6jx7Q53XjOvKxJJ3A3/FDrNaqpp+a2mvXqza0KJyL+qhi07LxQv9t3bx9u1L3F XceeYCMpl19sef1Wl35tZeVUV4IZV9hj+nEGXH2clTVSZ5iphFllL/HU4VLVCXeeYoaZFJpjHhVH W4YWbcfeVbwheB1fNi2YI3XmURQQADs= ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3520C.678F0FE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 23:50:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel In-Reply-To: <000001c35218$f45a30b0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <20030724225000.55654.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Al, Here are some old posts I found on the subject: >From Don White: Added doubler to each side of push tubes, moving attach bolt for each pedal 1/2" AFT. This allows brake pedal and rudder cable attach hole to a move about 1 1/4"`AFT. Rudder pedal stop for aft movement must also be moved AFT and brake cylinder push block is adjusted maximum FWD. RESULT - you now have about 1" additional rudder cable pull, PRIOR TO ANY BRAKE ACTION. Naturally rudder cables need to be shortened or adjusted shorter to take advantage of this mod. >From Travis Holland: Post 1: I Extend the arm that comes down from the brake pedal assy. I bring it down to just above where the carpet will lay on the floor. This will do two things, First it brings the rudder cable more in line with the rudder tubing, second it lengthens the throw of the arm. By doing this I can get more than the four inches called for...Travis ( Builder Assist Center) Post 2: Keith; �The first time I tried it I took a piece of steel tubing �that would just fit over the outside of the rudder tube, cut the rudder tube and spliced it in using AN3 bolts. I was adding about one and one quarter inch to the length of the rudder arm. I did this with the pedal assy. still on the plane. It worked so well that the last three that I worked on I had Al in the machine shop weld new tubes on before I mounted the assy. The only draw back to this I see is you have to be more careful about rudder adjustment, because you can overrun the amount of travel the rudder has. I adjust the cables after the brakes are bled by depressing the brake pedal all the way �it will go , move rudder to it's maximun outward travel, at that point set cable tight. �The last step is to install a bracket to limit the rudder arm to return only to the point that the rudder is returned and the cable is tight. �I hope tha! t makes sense to you,let me know if i can add to that. �I did make that suggestion but i'm low man on the totem pole and what do I know. �Travis ( Builder Assist Center) --- Al Gietzen wrote: > I recall awhile back in a discussion of rudder > travel and braking; > someone suggested putting spacer blocks between the > canard bulkhead and > the pedal assembly mounting block, to space the > pedals further from the > bulkhead. I believe the objective was to provide > more rudder travel > before the brakes applied. > > > > I'm not sure what I missed, but wondered if that > also required > replacement of the push tubes to allow more free > travel. Maybe that > person recalls and can remind us of what that was > about, and how to > achieve it. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Al > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 00:36:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jean Prudhomme) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:36:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <3F206D6C.000007.02484@your-m3vezyx8af> --------------Boundary-00=_CWYJWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_CWYJRN00000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_CWYJRN00000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Simond.=0D I did part of Don White in vestigation and i came up with a good solution wich keep your sump tank full when you need and also transfer fuel from o= ne tank thrue the sump and the other tank.=0D It also prevent of running out of fuel when the tank are low and at long decent.=0D I did install 2 fuel pump from Aircraft Spruce with suction located fowar= d of each cell and connected at outport with a tee and feeded at the top of the sump tank.=0D I am testing Steve Brick airplane and i found this new set up very handy=20 and with much more safety even you loose a cap or leaking=0D If you need more info i can send you a sketch and photos.=0D Jean Prudhomme =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: reflector@tvbf.org=0D Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:28:04 AM=0D To: reflector@tvbf.org=0D Subject: RE: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light=0D =0D I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0=0D =0D =0D Chuck:=0D =0D =0D you land on an Interstate on ramp. Has been done before! The following is from the NTSB:=0D =0D =0D -----------=0D On June 15, 1999, about 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/R= G, N19DW, registered to a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 9= 1 personal flight, crashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss= of engine power while attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County International Airport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was no= t injured. The flight originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the accident.=0D =0D Full narrative:=0D =0D On June 15, 1999, about 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/R= G, N19DW, registered to a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 9= 1 personal flight, crashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss= of engine power while attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County International Airport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was no= t injured. The flight originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the accident.=0D According to the pilot/builder, he was in cruise flight at 1,500 feet msl= , about 10 miles southwest of the St. Lucie County Airport. He was maneuver= ing to attain a visual on his destination, a private airstrip. Without warnin= g, he experienced a rapid decrease of engine power that activation of the electric fuel boost pump appeared to remedy. One or 2 minutes later, the engine again lost power and he noticed the fuel pressure gage indicating zero. He turned toward St. Lucie County Airport, but when it became obvio= us to him that engine power available would not sustain flight to the airpor= t, he chose the highway for a forced landing. The aircraft collided with pole-mounted power transmission lines on approach to the highway about 4 miles west of the St. Lucie County Airport, that caused a hard touchdown = to the pavement. He estimated that his fuel distribution at the beginning of the flight to be 5 to 10 gallons in the right tank, 10 to 12 gallons in t= he left tank, and 3 gallons in the sump tank. He further stated that he had recently replaced the factory-provided wing tank fuel caps with a differe= nt set of caps about a week before the accident. The new caps were not vente= d, and in retrospect, he stated the caps did not feel as tightly sealed to t= he filler pipe flange as the previous ones, but thought no more of it. He ad= ded that he began to have fuel balance problems that he had not experienced before, but did not make the connection.=0D According to St. Lucie County FAA Control Tower personnel, at 1002 the pi= lot radioed that he was a possible emergency due to low fuel pressure and shortly thereafter, advised that he could not make the field due to low power and was landing on I-95.=0D Subsequent examination of the wreckage and interview of the pilot/builder= by FAA personnel revealed that the aircraft is configured with a 33-gallon f= uel tank in each wing that gravity feeds into a fuselage mounted 3-gallon sum= p tank and thence to the aft-mounted engine via an electric driven boost pu= mp. There is no fuel selector valve on the aircraft. The fuel quantity indication system consisted of graduations on a left and right sight-gage made of clear flex-tubing spliced inline with fuel feed lines between the wing tanks and the sump tank and routed into the cabin. Eight to nine gallons of uncontaminated 100LL aviation fuel was contained in the left wing/sump tank combination and no fuel was found in the right tank, postcrash. The wreckage was subsequently moved to county property where operational testing of the fuel system and engine was conducted. The engi= ne started with no problems and exhaust sound was relatively smooth and consistent. High end rpm was not tested due to propeller damage and imbalance.=0D The new fuel tank caps are shipped from the kit factory with adjustment instructions attached, but the pilot does not remember seeing them, (a co= py of the instructions is included in this report). All three tanks are vent= ed to the outside atmosphere, but inspection of the total vent system reveal= ed some plumbing component's inside diameter measurements to be as small as = =2E18 inch. Pressurizing either wing tank with air revealed that the fuel vent system could not adequately equalize the pressure, and air bypass at the loosest fitting fuel cap occurred. It is reasoned that the opposite would also take effect, i.e. a negative pressure as occurs above the wing durin= g flight would also cause air bypass, (siphoning of air) out of the wing ta= nk through the loose fitting cap. The net effect would be a low pressure or vacuum created in the wing fuel tank that would interfere with gravity fe= ed into the sump tank and eventual fuel starvation. The factory provides, as= an option to the basic airplane kit at additional cost, a "low fuel" warning light for the sump tank, but this airplane was not so equipped.=0D As a result of this occurrence, flight testing was performed at the Veloc= ity Aircraft Factory, Sebastian, Florida, using loose-fitting fuel tank caps = in an attempt to duplicate the conditions present during the accident. It wa= s revealed that the wing tanks did, in fact, stop their gravity feed and th= e sump tank quantity started decreasing when using the loose cap. As a resu= lt of the testing, the factory is experimenting with replacing the 1/4 inch fuel vent tubing with 3/8 inch tubing in the wing tanks. Additionally, th= e factory eliminated the sump fuel vent in favor of an air bleed-off valve = or=20 burp" valve for use during pilot's preflight walk-around inspection. The factory has also issued an alert via newsletter to all kit owners concern= ing the hazards of using loose-fitting wing tank fuel caps. Applicable excerp= ts from that newsletter are included in this report.=0D -----------------=0D =0D =0D That should answer a couple of questions...=0D =0D =0D Best=0D Simon=0D -- =0D =0D Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_CWYJRN00000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Simond.

I did part of Don White in vestigation and i came up with a good sol= ution wich keep your sump tank full when you need and also transfer = fuel from one tank thrue the sump and the other tank.

It also prevent of running out of fuel when the tank are low and at = long decent.

I did install 2 fuel pump from Aircraft Spruce with suction loc= ated foward of each cell and connected at outport with a tee and fee= ded at the top of the sump tank.

I am testing Steve Brick airplane and i found this new set up very h= andy and with much more safety even you loose a cap or leaking
If you need more info i can send you a sketch and photos.

Jean Prudhomme

-------Original Message-------

From: reflector@tvbf.org

Date: Thursday, Ju= ly 24, 2003 11:28:04 AM

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Subject: RE: Imbal= anced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

I am still wondering if the left tank goes to 0

Chuck:

you land on an Interstate on ramp. Has been done before! The followi= ng is from the NTSB:

-----------

On June 15, 1999, about= 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/RG, N19DW, registered to= a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 91 personal flight, c= rashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss of engine power w= hile attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County International Ai= rport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed a= nd no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damage an= d the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured. The flight= originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the accident= =2E

Full narrative:<= /DIV>

On June 15, 1999, a= bout 1004 eastern daylight time, a White Velocity XL/RG, N19DW, registere= d to a private individual, operating as a Title 14 Part 91 personal fligh= t, crashed landed on an interstate highway following a loss of engine pow= er while attempting a forced landing at the St. Lucie County Internationa= l Airport, Fort Pierce, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevail= ed and no flight plan was filed. The aircraft sustained substantial damag= e and the private-rated pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured. The fl= ight originated from Hollywood, Florida, about 34 minutes before the acci= dent.
According to the pilot/builder, he was in cruise flight at 1,500= feet msl, about 10 miles southwest of the St. Lucie County Airport. He w= as maneuvering to attain a visual on his destination, a private airstrip.= Without warning, he experienced a rapid decrease of engine power that ac= tivation of the electric fuel boost pump appeared to remedy. One or 2 min= utes later, the engine again lost power and he noticed the fuel pressure = gage indicating zero. He turned toward St. Lucie County Airport, but when= it became obvious to him that engine power available would not sustain f= light to the airport, he chose the highway for a forced landing. The airc= raft collided with pole-mounted power transmission lines on approach to t= he highway about 4 miles west of the St. Lucie County Airport, that cause= d a hard touchdown to the pavement. He estimated that his fuel distributi= on at the beginning of the flight to be 5 to 10 gallons in the right tank= , 10 to 12 gallons in the left tank, and 3 gallons in the sump tank. He f= urther stated that he had recently replaced the factory-provided wing tan= k fuel caps with a different set of caps about a week before the accident= =2E The new caps were not vented, and in retrospect, he stated the caps d= id not feel as tightly sealed to the filler pipe flange as the previous o= nes, but thought no more of it. He added that he began to have fuel balan= ce problems that he had not experienced before, but did not make the conn= ection.
According to St. Lucie County FAA Control Tower personnel, at = 1002 the pilot radioed that he was a possible emergency due to low fuel p= ressure and shortly thereafter, advised that he could not make the field = due to low power and was landing on I-95.
Subsequent examination of th= e wreckage and interview of the pilot/builder by FAA personnel revealed t= hat the aircraft is configured with a 33-gallon fuel tank in each wing th= at gravity feeds into a fuselage mounted 3-gallon sump tank and thence to= the aft-mounted engine via an electric driven boost pump. There is no fu= el selector valve on the aircraft. The fuel quantity indication system co= nsisted of graduations on a left and right sight-gage made of clear flex-= tubing spliced inline with fuel feed lines between the wing tanks and the= sump tank and routed into the cabin. Eight to nine gallons of uncontamin= ated 100LL aviation fuel was contained in the left wing/sump tank combina= tion and no fuel was found in the right tank, postcrash. The wreckage was= subsequently moved to county property where operational testing of the f= uel system and engine was conducted. The engine started with no problems = and exhaust sound was relatively smooth and consistent. High end rpm was = not tested due to propeller damage and imbalance.

The new fuel tank caps = are shipped from the kit factory with adjustment instructions attached, b= ut the pilot does not remember seeing them, (a copy of the instructions i= s included in this report). All three tanks are vented to the outside atm= osphere, but inspection of the total vent system revealed some plumbing c= omponent's inside diameter measurements to be as small as .18 inch. Press= urizing either wing tank with air revealed that the fuel vent system coul= d not adequately equalize the pressure, and air bypass at the loosest fit= ting fuel cap occurred. It is reasoned that the opposite would also take = effect, i.e. a negative pressure as occurs above the wing during flight w= ould also cause air bypass, (siphoning of air) out of the wing tank throu= gh the loose fitting cap. The net effect would be a low pressure or vacuu= m created in the wing fuel tank that would interfere with gravity feed in= to the sump tank and eventual fuel starvation. The factory provides, as a= n option to the basic airplane kit at additional cost, a "low fuel" warni= ng light for the sump tank, but this airplane was not so equipped.
As = a result of this occurrence, flight testing was performed at the Velocity= Aircraft Factory, Sebastian, Florida, using loose-fitting fuel tank caps= in an attempt to duplicate the conditions present during the accident. I= t was revealed that the wing tanks did, in fact, stop their gravity feed = and the sump tank quantity started decreasing when using the loose cap. A= s a result of the testing, the factory is experimenting with replacing th= e 1/4 inch fuel vent tubing with 3/8 inch tubing in the wing tanks. Addit= ionally, the factory eliminated the sump fuel vent in favor of an air ble= ed-off valve or "burp" valve for use during pilot's preflight walk-around= inspection. The factory has also issued an alert via newsletter to all k= it owners concerning the hazards of using loose-fitting wing tank fuel ca= ps. Applicable excerpts from that newsletter are included in this report.=

-----------------

That should answer a couple of questions...

Best

Simon
--=20

Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland

______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_CWYJRN00000000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_CWYJWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <7373D18D-AFA9-402A-8EA8-6A9C0114E613> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_CWYJWCW0000000000000-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 01:06:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (CBarber) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:06:49 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... In-Reply-To: <3F1EA127.60506@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: I did, that is one of the reasons I am choosing the Mazda Rotary . Feel free to ask me about some of the other reasons....but be forewarned it will be like asking a mature American about their grandkids. Just rode in a new RX-8 today....I have never been in a smoother running car....250hp normally aspirated. Wow! All the best, Chris Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:IO-360 and a Velocity Engine install kit... I didn't realize a run out IO360 was worth so much? Scott Donald Hamm wrote: > For those who want to know about the engine/kit: > > IO-360 A3B6D out of a 1978 Mooney Overhauled in 1986 (0-time factory) > has (according to logs) 1738 hours TT (262 to TB0) > > AD complied with until May 11 of 2000 (have log book). > > Engine install kit has: > > stainless exhaust, engine mount, oil and gas lines with fire sleeves, > sleeves, fuel pump, baffles, fiberfrax for firewall, servo mount just to > name a few. The kit was purchased in 2001 when I bought the engine. > > $10,400 (inc shipping) for the engine and just over $2000 for the engine > install kit (IO-360). > > -Don > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 01:42:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:42:23 +0000 Subject: Imbalanced fuel flow: was Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: Jean... Please send a sketch to the reflector so that others can share that information...I guess my wording wasn't too good in my last post... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 24 21:40:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:40:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Tank Leak Tests References: <1ce.e634786.2c517e85@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F20444A.14BB77B@dixie-net.com> --------------DDCE2899AA39AA949B94AD88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem isn't that I can't blow hard enough, it's that after blowing for several minutes I don't get enough pressure to measure on my improvised water manometer. It takes a lot of blowing to fill 60 gallons of tank. John NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote: > Whilst checking my tanks for leaks, I developed a method for getting a > 'little more pressure than I could blow by mouth. > > I purchased a bag of those big party balloons. I found that 1 balloon > did not supply any more pressure than I could blow by mouth, so I put > one balloon inside another and filled the inner with an air > compressor. That supplied a nice constant pressure without the risk > of blowing up the tanks. It also minimizes the leaking through the > balloon skin. > > This allowed me to find the few pinhole leaks pretty quickly by > myself. It also helps make sure the fuel caps are sealing correctly if > you insure all other outlets are clamped off. > > Kurt Winker --------------DDCE2899AA39AA949B94AD88 Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem isn't that I can't blow hard enough, it's that after blowing for several minutes I don't get enough pressure to measure on my improvised water manometer. It takes a lot of blowing to fill 60 gallons of tank.
John
NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote:
Whilst checking my tanks for leaks, I developed a method for getting a 'little more pressure than I could blow by mouth.
I purchased a bag of those big party balloons. I found that 1 balloon did not supply any more pressure than I could blow by mouth, so I put one balloon inside another and filled the inner with an air compressor. That supplied a nice constant pressure without the risk of blowing up the tanks. It also minimizes the leaking through the balloon skin.
This allowed me to find the few pinhole leaks pretty quickly by myself. It also helps make sure the fuel caps are sealing correctly if you insure all other outlets are clamped off.
Kurt Winker
--------------DDCE2899AA39AA949B94AD88-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 02:53:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:53:11 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? References: <191.1d07df26.2c516e0f@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a901c3524f$8106b3e0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C35214.D45D1740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mack, No argument here. =20 I'm considering a racing-type fuel filter (see, for example, = www.pegasusautoracing.com/pdfs/061.pdf, in the lower left corner). The = example filter is good for 90 gallons/hour "with minimal pressure drop". = It has an aluminum housing that is installed into the fuel system with = AN fittings. The fuel enters the bottom, and exits the side; the filter = element is replaced by unbolting the top, lifting out the old element, = and dropping in the new element. I like the concept that no = disconnection of the fuel lines is required to replace the element. It = seems like this would provide some chance of less fuel spill in the back = of the cabin during filter replacement. Does anyone have experience with this type of filter? Tell me about it! = Anyone have a better idea? Tell me about that! Also, what are folks using for the fuel shut-off valve? Make, model & = source of supply? Any photos or installation suggestions? Keith Hallsten, XLFG =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MMurp16900@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? Hi John In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off = valve and transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the = fuel sump We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked = often. During the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust. Mack ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C35214.D45D1740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mack, No argument=20 here.

I'm considering a racing-type fuel = filter (see, for=20 example, www.pegasusautorac= ing.com/pdfs/061.pdf,=20 in the lower left corner). The example filter is good for 90 = gallons/hour=20 "with minimal pressure drop". It has an aluminum housing that = is=20 installed into the fuel system with AN fittings. The fuel enters = the=20 bottom, and exits the side; the filter element is replaced by unbolting = the top,=20 lifting out the old element, and dropping in the new element. I = like the=20 concept that no disconnection of the fuel lines is required to replace = the=20 element. It seems like this would provide some chance of less fuel = spill=20 in the back of the cabin during filter replacement.

Does anyone have experience with this = type of=20 filter? Tell me about it! Anyone have a better idea? = Tell me=20 about that!

Also, what are folks using for the fuel = shut-off=20 valve? Make, model & source of supply? Any photos or=20 installation suggestions?

Keith Hallsten, XLFG



----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MMurp16900@aol.com
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 10:14=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel = Filter?

Hi John
In my = opinion every=20 composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off valve = and
transparent fuel=20 filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the fuel sump We = installed two=20 filters in parallel. They should be checked often. During the first 25 = hours=20 we had a lot of fiber glass dust.
Mack=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C35214.D45D1740-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 02:59:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:59:02 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000501c351f2$e10718a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <00b301c35250$52633300$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C35215.A5D20060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightAl, This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel warning = with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting into the sump tank = if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep the strake-to-sump fuel = lines submerged? The sump vent seems the most likely route. Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alventures=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:50 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light I'd be interesting in hearing what problems the sump vent might = cause. Al ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C35215.A5D20060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Al,

This thread started with Rene's problem = with=20 occasional low-fuel warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is = the air=20 getting into the sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep = the=20 strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems the most = likely=20 route.

Keith

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 alventures=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 7:50=20 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

<SNIP>

I=92d = be=20 interesting in hearing what problems the sump vent might=20 cause.

Al
------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C35215.A5D20060-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 03:05:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:05:53 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Sump vent References: <20030724190307.92458.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b901c35251$4765fa40$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Pat, I strongly suspect you are right, but I haven't proven this experimentally. That's why I'd be willing to forego the sump vent. With 3/8" vents to the strakes and 3/8" fuel lines from the strakes to the sump, I think the need for a vent from the sump tank is unlikely. By the way, my "Y" exhaust stacks from Custom Aircraft Parts arrived and look good. Thanks for the recommendation! Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:03 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > FWIW - If you were to block off the fuel lines going from the strakes to the sump, drain your sump completely, close the sump vent, and then release the fuel lines, the sump would refill almost completely. The air in the sump simply vents via the fuel inlet lines from whichever strake is at a lower pressure. The pocket of air at the top of a sumps in plane's without sump vents is just air trapped above the fuel inlet lines. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 03:17:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:17:53 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel References: <000001c35218$f45a30b0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <000901c35252$f43c6320$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C35231.6CF86880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a square tube of aluminum about 1 or 11/2 inch that attaches = to the brake assembly rod and slides inside the foot pedal. You need to = make an new one or modify the present one to where you get as much = deflection of the rudder before the brakes come into play. You will = just have to play with this until you have it where you want it. Fred ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: reflector=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal travel I recall awhile back in a discussion of rudder travel and braking; = someone suggested putting spacer blocks between the canard bulkhead and = the pedal assembly mounting block, to space the pedals further from the = bulkhead. I believe the objective was to provide more rudder travel = before the brakes applied. I'm not sure what I missed, but wondered if that also required = replacement of the push tubes to allow more free travel. Maybe that = person recalls and can remind us of what that was about, and how to = achieve it. Thanks, Al ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C35231.6CF86880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a square tube of aluminum about 1 or = 11/2 inch=20 that attaches to the brake assembly rod and slides inside the foot = pedal. =20 You need to make an new one or modify the present one to where you get = as much=20 deflection of the rudder before the brakes come into play. You = will just=20 have to play with this until you have it where you want it.

Fred

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
To: reflector

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 3:22=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Rudder pedal = travel

I recall awhile back = in a=20 discussion of rudder travel and braking; someone suggested putting = spacer=20 blocks between the canard bulkhead and the pedal assembly mounting = block, to=20 space the pedals further from the bulkhead. I believe the = objective was=20 to provide more rudder travel before the brakes = applied.

I=92m not sure what I = missed, but=20 wondered if that also required replacement of the push tubes to allow = more=20 free travel. Maybe that person recalls and can remind us of what = that=20 was about, and how to achieve it.

Thanks,

Al
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C35231.6CF86880-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 03:28:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? In-Reply-To: <00a901c3524f$8106b3e0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <20030725022827.51858.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, I use their external oil filter on my engine, it came off a LeMans winning Mazda. They are very well made and can take a lot of punishment. Jim --- KeithHallsten wrote: > Mack, No argument here. > > I'm considering a racing-type fuel filter (see, for > example, www.pegasusautoracing.com/pdfs/061.pdf, in the > lower left corner). The example filter is good for 90 > gallons/hour "with minimal pressure drop". It has an > aluminum housing that is installed into the fuel system > with AN fittings. The fuel enters the bottom, and exits > the side; the filter element is replaced by unbolting the > top, lifting out the old element, and dropping in the new > element. I like the concept that no disconnection of the > fuel lines is required to replace the element. It seems > like this would provide some chance of less fuel spill in > the back of the cabin during filter replacement. > > Does anyone have experience with this type of filter? > Tell me about it! Anyone have a better idea? Tell me > about that! > > Also, what are folks using for the fuel shut-off valve? > Make, model & source of supply? Any photos or > installation suggestions? > > Keith Hallsten, XLFG > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MMurp16900@aol.com > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:14 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? > > > Hi John > In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a > fuel shut off valve and > transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the > outlet of the fuel sump We installed two filters in > parallel. They should be checked often. During the first > 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust. > Mack ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 03:32:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:FYI - I will be off-line for about two weeks. Message-ID: <20030725023231.39839.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Jim ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 03:45:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:45:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 References: <19f.184caa57.2c517873@aol.com> Message-ID: <008401c35256$d7df3320$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C35235.509B3880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, I am very much interested, could you please forward me all the = information you have. I have and UPSAT mx-20 as well. Fred=20 N244FM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: Reflector@awpi.com=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:59 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my = Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is much = like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated every 5 = minutes and includes both graphic and text information (METARS and TAF, = etc.) Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting = station.=20 There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is = intersted I will give more detail. Bob Wood N658SE ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C35235.509B3880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,

I am very much interested, could you please = forward me=20 all the information you have. I have and UPSAT mx-20 as=20 well.

Fred

N244FM

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com=20
To: Reflector@awpi.com

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 1:59=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI = AV-100

Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system = installed in=20 my Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is = much like=20 whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is updated every 5 = minutes=20 and includes both graphic and text information (METARS and TAF, = etc.)=20 Graphically it shows the status (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting = station.=20

There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is = intersted I will give more detail.

Bob Wood
N658SE=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C35235.509B3880-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 04:43:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:43:56 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! In-Reply-To: <000001c35234$8be4a3a0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Message-ID: Rene, you might want to re locate your level switch about 1/2-3/4" down from it's current position, when I built my sump, I installed 2 hard points for my sensor, and currently have it in the top one with a plug in the bottom, but if I have any problems with it, then I will switch that around- it is very difficult I think to eliminate all of the air from the sump, and also there might be some foam on top also, that will sink the float. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Rene Dugas Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:40 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! I agree a shut off valve may not be the safest choice. Your assessment of inadequate flow into the sump from one or both main tanks thereby lowering the level of the fuel in the vent line above the sump could introduce air into the sump. That is why I tried to SLIGHTLY increase my pressure in the vent line by increasing the bevel and length of the vent tube overboard as well as its size to 1/2". No change. Still comes on and flickers only in low flow cruise at about 13.5 to 14 gal/hr lean. I covered the fuel lines in the engine compartment with fire sleeve to be sure I was not bubbling boiling fuel back into the sump or the fuel line. I have quickly removed my lower cowl after running the engine for 15 minutes on the ground and the engine compartment is not very hot and I can hold the fuel lines easily in my hand. Remember the light only flashes on in smooth air and level flight. Thanks for the mental exercises. Keep them coming. Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light - NO! Please, please, please do not do this (install a vent shutoff valve)! Air must enter the system as the fuel drains out or 1 of 2 really bad things will happen. 1) Pop-Bottle plug effect - where the gas glug-glug-glugs to your engine, or stops altogther as air cannot replace the lost fluid-or- 2) The tanks will crush as the fuel pulls vacuum on the tank and the outside air pressure pops the strake open Having seen a 30,000 industrial tank get crushed like a soda can from a plugged vent & overflow line, I'm horrified by the idea of this happening in flight. Allowing air into the tanks is the primary purpose of the vent, and why you should install the check valve to allow cabin air into the tanks (but no gas-vapor into the cabin) should the external vent get blocked by ice. If there's an adequate fuel level in the stakes, an air bubble should not be able to form in the sump, as the head pressure from the strakes should fill it to the level (in the vent line) of the strakes (fluids seek their own level and all). If a bubble were to form it would indicate that the fuel pump is pulling the level faster than the tanks can replenish it. Brett Quoting Bob Kuc : > Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > I was think about that also. However, if you are on > the low side of > fuel and then make a turn, the fuel on the inboard > stake would rush to > the end. Would that not introduce air into the sump > tank that you would > have no way of relieving because you have the vent > blocked off? > > Bob > I plan to install a manual vent shut-off valve > between the sump tank > and the vent manifold. The result will be that the > vent system can > allow the main strake tanks to drain, but can't > introduce air into the > sump tank. I have a theory that the vent line to the > sump tank causes > more problems than it solves, once the initial "burp" > of air is allowed > to escape from the sump tank (before engine start). > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 05:27:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Sump vent In-Reply-To: <00b901c35251$4765fa40$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <20030725042756.74005.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Keith, I actually did this experiment already on my XL the last time we had an uneven fuel flow brainstorm on the reflector... I didn't prove anything about how the system will work (or not) without a sump vent, just that if air is introduced into the sump that it will not get trapped there without a sump vent. Hope the exhaust works well for you - how are your clearances (cowl, b-nut, intakes, etc...)?? Pat --- KeithHallsten wrote: > Pat, > > I strongly suspect you are right, but I haven't > proven this experimentally. > That's why I'd be willing to forego the sump vent. > With 3/8" vents to the > strakes and 3/8" fuel lines from the strakes to the > sump, I think the need > for a vent from the sump tank is unlikely. > > By the way, my "Y" exhaust stacks from Custom > Aircraft Parts arrived and > look good. Thanks for the recommendation! > > Keith > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Shea" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > FWIW - If you were to block off the fuel lines > going from the strakes to > the sump, drain your sump completely, close the sump > vent, and then release > the fuel lines, the sump would refill almost > completely. The air in the > sump simply vents via the fuel inlet lines from > whichever strake is at a > lower pressure. The pocket of air at the top of a > sumps in plane's without > sump vents is just air trapped above the fuel inlet > lines. > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 07:07:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:07:57 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Sump vent References: <20030725042756.74005.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c35273$1869a800$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Pat, Thanks for the data point on the sump tank venting. As I said, that's what I would expect, so it's nice to have some confirmation. I also thought it was quite interesting that the report on Don White's adventure landing on I-95 (that Simon posted today) included the note (near the end) that the Velocity Factory (at that time) recommended placing the "burp" valve in the sump vent! I would be curious to know how many Velocities are now flying so equipped, and whether any difference in the function of the fuel system has resulted. My engine is being overhauled at Ly-Con in Visalia, so I can't check any clearances to the exhaust system until it is finished in October. If I have any problem I'll let you know! Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:27 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Sump vent > Keith, > > I actually did this experiment already on my XL the > last time we had an uneven fuel flow brainstorm on the > reflector... > > I didn't prove anything about how the system will work > (or not) without a sump vent, just that if air is > introduced into the sump that it will not get trapped > there without a sump vent. > > Hope the exhaust works well for you - how are your > clearances (cowl, b-nut, intakes, etc...)?? > > Pat > > --- KeithHallsten wrote: > > Pat, > > > > I strongly suspect you are right, but I haven't > > proven this experimentally. > > That's why I'd be willing to forego the sump vent. > > With 3/8" vents to the > > strakes and 3/8" fuel lines from the strakes to the > > sump, I think the need > > for a vent from the sump tank is unlikely. > > > > By the way, my "Y" exhaust stacks from Custom > > Aircraft Parts arrived and > > look good. Thanks for the recommendation! > > > > Keith > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Pat Shea" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:03 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > > > > FWIW - If you were to block off the fuel lines > > going from the strakes to > > the sump, drain your sump completely, close the sump > > vent, and then release > > the fuel lines, the sump would refill almost > > completely. The air in the > > sump simply vents via the fuel inlet lines from > > whichever strake is at a > > lower pressure. The pocket of air at the top of a > > sumps in plane's without > > sump vents is just air trapped above the fuel inlet > > lines. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 13:52:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:52:48 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Oshkosh Bound Message-ID: <002801c352ab$a6f587a0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3528A.1F760AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had to forward this to the Reflector! (I edited part of the note = out). Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Build2001@aol.com=20 To: canards@tnstaafl.net=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:40 PM Subject: [Canards] Simon respite and Oshkosh Bound OSHKOSH BOUND Fly on into Oshkosh with pleasure and skill, and don't come to close to a tower or hill, keep your tips on the level and your tanks well filled, keep your eyes on alert and don't let your mind chill, On command of the spotters toe the line in the pack, they'll bring you on in, look ahead, don't look back, but be ready to turn if you find they've been slack, and vectored your course on another planes track, Then set her down easy and slow to a roll, and watch for commands from the parking patrol, pop the canopy open and smile at the show,=20 as you taxi to canard land at north 40 row,=20 Climb down from your mount all ready for pleasure, there's fun to be had while wondering in leasure, your wish list may break your account beyond measure, but its nice to lift dreams like a gust on a feather, =20 And when the days done and you head for your sac, grab a beer on the way and a noteworth snack, talk of lessons, new toys and the air to air chat, ... Its as fun to arrive as it is to go back. =20 I'm Oshkosh bound again! Ron Phoenix=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3528A.1F760AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had to forward this to the Reflector! (I = edited part=20 of the note out).

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Build2001@aol.com=20

To: canards@tnstaafl.net

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:40 PM

Subject: [Canards] Simon respite and Oshkosh = Bound

OSHKOSH = BOUND

Fly on=20 into Oshkosh with pleasure and skill,
and don't come to close to a = tower or=20 hill,
keep your tips on the level and your tanks well filled,
keep = your=20 eyes on alert and don't let your mind chill,

On command of = the spotters=20 toe the line in the pack,
they'll bring you on in, look ahead, don't = look=20 back,
but be ready to turn if you find they've been slack,
and = vectored=20 your course on another planes track,

Then set her = down easy and=20 slow to a roll,
and watch for commands from the parking = patrol,
pop=20 the canopy open and smile at the show,
as you taxi to canard land at = north=20 40 row,

Climb down from your mount all ready for = pleasure,
there's=20 fun to be had while wondering in leasure,
your wish list may break = your=20 account beyond measure,
but its nice to lift dreams like a gust on a=20 feather,

And when the days done and you head for your = sac,
grab=20 a beer on the way and a noteworth snack,
talk of lessons, new toys = and the=20 air to air chat,
... Its as fun to arrive as it is to go=20 back.

I'm Oshkosh bound=20 again!

Ron
Phoenix
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3528A.1F760AA0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 14:43:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:43:23 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Oshkosh Bound Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C352B2.B99889D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >From way up high I can say with delight I wish my piloting was as smooth as he writes. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 8:53 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Oshkosh Bound I had to forward this to the Reflector! (I edited part of the note out). Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Build2001@aol.com To: canards@tnstaafl.net Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:40 PM Subject: [Canards] Simon respite and Oshkosh Bound OSHKOSH BOUND Fly on into Oshkosh with pleasure and skill, and don't come to close to a tower or hill, keep your tips on the level and your tanks well filled, keep your eyes on alert and don't let your mind chill, On command of the spotters toe the line in the pack, they'll bring you on in, look ahead, don't look back, but be ready to turn if you find they've been slack, and vectored your course on another planes track, Then set her down easy and slow to a roll, and watch for commands from the parking patrol, pop the canopy open and smile at the show, as you taxi to canard land at north 40 row, Climb down from your mount all ready for pleasure, there's fun to be had while wondering in leasure, your wish list may break your account beyond measure, but its nice to lift dreams like a gust on a feather, And when the days done and you head for your sac, grab a beer on the way and a noteworth snack, talk of lessons, new toys and the air to air chat, ... Its as fun to arrive as it is to go back. I'm Oshkosh bound again! Ron Phoenix ------_=_NextPart_001_01C352B2.B99889D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
From way up high

I can say with delight

I wish my piloting

was as smooth as he writes.

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 8:53 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Oshkosh Bound

I had to forward this to the Reflector! (I edited part of the note out).

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From: Build2001@aol.com

To: canards@tnstaafl.net

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:40 PM

Subject: [Canards] Simon respite and Oshkosh Bound

OSHKOSH BOUND

Fly on into Oshkosh with pleasure and skill,
and don't come to close to a tower or hill,
keep your tips on the level and your tanks well filled,
keep your eyes on alert and don't let your mind chill,

On command of the spotters toe the line in the pack,
they'll bring you on in, look ahead, don't look back,
but be ready to turn if you find they've been slack,
and vectored your course on another planes track,

Then set her down easy and slow to a roll,
and watch for commands from the parking patrol,
pop the canopy open and smile at the show,
as you taxi to canard land at north 40 row,

Climb down from your mount all ready for pleasure,
there's fun to be had while wondering in leasure,
your wish list may break your account beyond measure,
but its nice to lift dreams like a gust on a feather,

And when the days done and you head for your sac,
grab a beer on the way and a noteworth snack,
talk of lessons, new toys and the air to air chat,
... Its as fun to arrive as it is to go back.

I'm Oshkosh bound again!

Ron
Phoenix
------_=_NextPart_001_01C352B2.B99889D0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 14:14:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:14:03 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Tank Leak Tests References: <1ce.e634786.2c517e85@aol.com> <3F20444A.14BB77B@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <01ac01c352ae$9f1a6480$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01A9_01C3528D.17B4D820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can use the pressure side of a vacuum cleaner or even your air = compressor, just make sure the U tube water manometer is in the circuit = such the water blows out and prevents the tanks from being over = pressurized. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Dibble=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Tank Leak Tests The problem isn't that I can't blow hard enough, it's that after = blowing for several minutes I don't get enough pressure to measure on my = improvised water manometer. It takes a lot of blowing to fill 60 = gallons of tank.=20 John=20 NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote:=20 Whilst checking my tanks for leaks, I developed a method for getting = a 'little more pressure than I could blow by mouth.=20 I purchased a bag of those big party balloons. I found that 1 = balloon did not supply any more pressure than I could blow by mouth, so = I put one balloon inside another and filled the inner with an air = compressor. That supplied a nice constant pressure without the risk of = blowing up the tanks. It also minimizes the leaking through the balloon = skin.=20 This allowed me to find the few pinhole leaks pretty quickly by = myself. It also helps make sure the fuel caps are sealing correctly if = you insure all other outlets are clamped off.=20 Kurt Winker ------=_NextPart_000_01A9_01C3528D.17B4D820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You can use the pressure side of a vacuum cleaner or = even your=20 air compressor, just make sure the U tube water manometer is in the = circuit such=20 the water blows out and prevents the tanks from being over=20 pressurized.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Dibble
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 = 4:40=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel = Tank Leak=20 Tests

The problem isn't that I can't blow hard enough, it's = that=20 after blowing for several minutes I don't get enough pressure to = measure on my=20 improvised water manometer. It takes a lot of blowing to fill 60 = gallons=20 of tank.=20
John=20
NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote:=20
Whilst = checking my=20 tanks for leaks, I developed a method for getting a 'little more = pressure=20 than I could blow by mouth.=20
I purchased a bag of those big = party=20 balloons. I found that 1 balloon did not supply any more pressure = than I=20 could blow by mouth, so I put one balloon inside another and filled = the=20 inner with an air compressor. That supplied a nice constant = pressure=20 without the risk of blowing up the tanks. It also minimizes the = leaking=20 through the balloon skin.=20
This allowed me to find the = few pinhole=20 leaks pretty quickly by myself. It also helps make sure the fuel = caps are=20 sealing correctly if you insure all other outlets are clamped=20 off.=20
Kurt=20 Winker
------=_NextPart_000_01A9_01C3528D.17B4D820-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 15:52:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:52:20 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 References: <19f.184caa57.2c517873@aol.com> <008401c35256$d7df3320$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Message-ID: <3F214424.6020608@tnstaafl.net> Fred. Your yelling again! Scott ;-) Fred Marconi wrote: > Bob, > > I am very much interested, could you please forward me all the > information you have. I have and UPSAT mx-20 as well. > > Fred > N244FM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SlvEgl99@aol.com > To: Reflector@awpi.com > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:59 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 > > Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my > Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is > much like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is > updated every 5 minutes and includes both graphic and text > information (METARS and TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status > (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting station. > > There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is > intersted I will give more detail. > > Bob Wood > N658SE > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 19:21:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:21:06 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Prop Balancer Message-ID: <25.3c2cc40c.2c52cf12@aol.com> Any one have the where abouts of Norman Serrana and or Vibe-Tech? I bought there balancer last December and haven't had it work yet. It's been back 3 times with still no results. I sent it back to Norman about 4 weeks ago to either send one that worked, or a check. Now I get a pleasant lady telling me "I'm sorry, that number has been disconnected." I guess that's $900.00 bucks out the door. I know he moved to Arizona where I happen to do a lot of hunting. I'll find him. TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 20:20:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Induction hose Message-ID: <20030725192040.92995.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Is Aeroduct SCAT or SCEET from Aircraft Spruce acceptable to use for induction duct?? I recently read an article (see below) that warned of using either of these in a negative pressure application. Funny, but I assumed SCEET was better (two plys, stronger, twice as expensive...); the article points out that the inner ply in SCEET is bonded on the INSIDE of the support wire implying a greater failure/blockage potential than SCAT. Unfortunately, the article was written to caution spammers from using these hoses as OEM replacement parts - not much help for the homebuilding crowd. I suspect this is what most people are using - just wanted to get the consensus: SCEET, SCAT, or something else? Pat (XL w/ IO-540) www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/scatsceetarticle.htm www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fsa/download/01jul/42-43.pdf __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 21:53:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Robin Ream) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:53:43 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Prop Balancer References: <25.3c2cc40c.2c52cf12@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c352ee$d5bdb6a0$3e6dce18@cj209446d> The last thing I heard was that he was going in business with someone in Tucson, but I don't have any more info than that. His last known email address was vibetech@bellsouth.net , but I haven't had any need to contact him in months so I don't know if it's still a good address. Vibetech had an office manager named Diana Powell who could probably give you more information if you could track her down if you fail to reach anyone else at Vibetech directly. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 1:21 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Prop Balancer > Any one have the where abouts of Norman Serrana and or Vibe-Tech? > > I bought there balancer last December and haven't had it work yet. It's been > back 3 times with still no results. I sent it back to Norman about 4 weeks > ago to either send one that worked, or a check. Now I get a pleasant lady > telling me "I'm sorry, that number has been disconnected." > > I guess that's $900.00 bucks out the door. > > I know he moved to Arizona where I happen to do a lot of hunting. I'll find > him. > > TEC > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri Jul 25 22:56:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:56:46 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <00b301c35250$52633300$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <000a01c352f7$a4a321a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C352BC.F84449A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al, This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting into the sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems the most likely route. Keith Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent warning is due to a low level in the sump tank and not a problem with the float switch, or something else. After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent seems to make sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, and not convenient to get at. And it doesn't preclude fuel exhaustion in the case of a leaky fuel cap. If we are going to keep a simple gravity feed system from both tanks, we have to pay attention to the fuel caps, and be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the other. Let's see; if we could just find a different place to put the fuel cap; someplace that doesn't happen to see about the maximum negative pressure of anywhere on the airplane. Al ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C352BC.F84449A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Al,

This thread started with = Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel warning with plenty of fuel on = board. How is the air getting into the sump tank if the strake tanks have = enough fuel to keep the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent = seems the most likely route.

Keith

=

Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent warning is due to = a low level in the sump tank and not a problem with the float switch, or = something else.

After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent seems to make = sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, and not convenient to get at. = And it doesn’t preclude fuel exhaustion in the case of a leaky fuel = cap. If we are going to keep a simple gravity feed system from both tanks, we = have to pay attention to the fuel caps, and be aware of one tank level = dropping faster than the other.

Let’s see; if we could just find a different place to put the fuel cap; = someplace that doesn’t happen to see about the maximum negative pressure of = anywhere on the airplane.

Al

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C352BC.F84449A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 03:02:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:02:41 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Induction hose References: <20030725192040.92995.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F21E141.2030901@tnstaafl.net> Hmmm.. I'm using 3" red scat in a 5 year old Velocity, my 55 year old Bonanza used the old black scat... Not to be confused with a black cat! Scott Pat Shea wrote: > Is Aeroduct SCAT or SCEET from Aircraft Spruce > acceptable to use for induction duct?? I recently read > an article (see below) that warned of using either of > these in a negative pressure application. Funny, but I > assumed SCEET was better (two plys, stronger, twice as > expensive...); the article points out that the inner > ply in SCEET is bonded on the INSIDE of the support > wire implying a greater failure/blockage potential > than SCAT. Unfortunately, the article was written to > caution spammers from using these hoses as OEM > replacement parts - not much help for the homebuilding > crowd. I suspect this is what most people are using - > just wanted to get the consensus: SCEET, SCAT, or > something else? > > Pat (XL w/ IO-540) > > www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/scatsceetarticle.htm > > www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fsa/download/01jul/42-43.pdf > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 11:50:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 06:50:33 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Induction hose References: <20030725192040.92995.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <3F21E141.2030901@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002601c35363$bdb79a60$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Red SCAT is used on our C 172 for the intake air as well as the carb heat air. It will wear out after time and like everything on an airplane, you need to inspect it every year or more often and replace it when it starts going bad - loose support wires. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:02 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Induction hose | Hmmm.. I'm using 3" red scat in a 5 year old Velocity, my 55 year old | Bonanza used the old black scat... Not to be confused with a black cat! | | Scott | | Pat Shea wrote: | > Is Aeroduct SCAT or SCEET from Aircraft Spruce | > acceptable to use for induction duct?? I recently read | > an article (see below) that warned of using either of | > these in a negative pressure application. Funny, but I | > assumed SCEET was better (two plys, stronger, twice as | > expensive...); the article points out that the inner | > ply in SCEET is bonded on the INSIDE of the support | > wire implying a greater failure/blockage potential | > than SCAT. Unfortunately, the article was written to | > caution spammers from using these hoses as OEM | > replacement parts - not much help for the homebuilding | > crowd. I suspect this is what most people are using - | > just wanted to get the consensus: SCEET, SCAT, or | > something else? | > | > Pat (XL w/ IO-540) | > | > www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/scatsceetarticle.htm | > | > www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fsa/download/01jul/42-43.pdf | > | > | > | > __________________________________ | > Do you Yahoo!? | > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software | > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com | > _______________________________________________ | > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | > | > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose | > | | | _______________________________________________ | To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector | | Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 14:05:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:05:57 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000a01c352f7$a4a321a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <042c01c35376$a8327030$0100a8c0@micron> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0429_01C35355.20741570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightWhy would you jump to the assumption it's = air in the tank? Without a sightglass, or replacing that run of tubing = to the sump neoprene or something, we don't have any idea what's causing = the indication. Could just as easily be a defect inside the instrument. = My whole contention was that, if air is entering the sump, it's = probably for the best b/c the alternative is most likely to pull a = vacuum on the tank. Air doesn't displace fuel without a reason. Brett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alventures=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Al, This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel = warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting into the = sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep the = strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems the most = likely route. Keith Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent = warning is due to a low level in the sump tank and not a problem with = the float switch, or something else. After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent = seems to make sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, = and not convenient to get at. And it doesn't preclude fuel exhaustion = in the case of a leaky fuel cap. If we are going to keep a simple = gravity feed system from both tanks, we have to pay attention to the = fuel caps, and be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the = other. Let's see; if we could just find a different place to put the fuel = cap; someplace that doesn't happen to see about the maximum negative = pressure of anywhere on the airplane. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0429_01C35355.20741570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Why would you jump to the assumption = it's air in=20 the tank? Without a sightglass, or replacing that run of = tubing to=20 the sump neoprene or something, we don't have any idea what's causing = the=20 indication. Could just as easily be a defect inside the = instrument. =20 My whole contention was that, if air is entering the sump, it's probably = for the=20 best b/c the alternative is most likely to pull a vacuum on the = tank. Air=20 doesn't displace fuel without a reason.

Brett

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 alventures=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 = 5:56 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

Al,

This thread started with = Rene's=20 problem with occasional low-fuel warning with plenty of fuel on = board. =20 How is the air getting into the sump tank if the strake tanks have = enough fuel=20 to keep the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent = seems the=20 most likely route.

Keith

Yes, I agree=20 with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent warning is due = to a=20 low level in the sump tank and not a problem with the float switch, = or=20 something else.

After giving=20 the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent seems to make=20 sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, and not = convenient to get at. And it doesn=92t preclude fuel = exhaustion in the=20 case of a leaky fuel cap. If we are going to keep a simple = gravity=20 feed system from both tanks, we have to pay attention to the fuel = caps, and=20 be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the = other.

Let=92s see; if=20 we could just find a different place to put the fuel cap; someplace = that=20 doesn=92t happen to see about the maximum negative pressure of = anywhere on the=20 airplane.

Al
------=_NextPart_000_0429_01C35355.20741570-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 15:05:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Fred Marconi) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:05:48 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 References: <19f.184caa57.2c517873@aol.com> <008401c35256$d7df3320$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> <3F214424.6020608@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <009d01c3537f$03bee520$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Scott: It might seem that I am, it's just that some Latinos have a habit of speaking loud since no one listens to them. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:52 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 > Fred. > > Your yelling again! > > Scott ;-) > > Fred Marconi wrote: > > Bob, > > > > I am very much interested, could you please forward me all the > > information you have. I have and UPSAT mx-20 as well. > > > > Fred > > N244FM > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SlvEgl99@aol.com > > To: Reflector@awpi.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:59 PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 > > > > Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my > > Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is > > much like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is > > updated every 5 minutes and includes both graphic and text > > information (METARS and TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status > > (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting station. > > > > There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is > > intersted I will give more detail. > > > > Bob Wood > > N658SE > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 16:45:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Noel Gattenby) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:45:28 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:wings and epoxy Message-ID: <006e01c3538c$f101cde0$320e55d8@sugarridge> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C35363.076D09C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those of us that didn't get fast build wings... How much epoxy does it take to glass the wings? I'm about to start that project and want to make sure I've got enough.. On another note..a pack of 20 - 25 T-6's just flew over, =20 I could hear them from inside the house when they were still 2-3 miles = away... I wish I was following them north to Oshkosh... Noel ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C35363.076D09C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For those of us that didn't get fast = build=20 wings...

How much epoxy does it take to glass = the=20 wings?

I'm about to start that project and = want to make=20 sure I've got enough..

On another note..a pack of 20 - 25 = T-6's just flew=20 over,

I could hear them from inside the house = when they=20 were still 2-3 miles away...

I wish I was following them north to=20 Oshkosh...

Noel
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C35363.076D09C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 17:34:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:34:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35393.CAA213E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Brett, I suspect the point is, why did the air get into the sump or how logical is it that air is actually in the sump or, if that is not logical, then it does point to a faulty instrument. An investigation tree might look like: Air in sump: 1. From the either tank? No, both tanks were full and fuel outlets were always covered 2. From the vent line? No, the sump vent line is open and there is no source for the line to be pressurized to blow air into sump 3. Did the sump become starved for fuel from the tanks and pull air in through the vent? No, flow paths open and if it was that starved, the engine would have stopped. 4. Was air in the sump all the time and just hadn't been vented off No, the vent to the sump was always open and air should have been displaced by gravity flow of fuel. 5. Do we know for sure that there is air in the sump? No, we only infer that because we are getting the low fuel signal. 6. Is it logical that air is actually in the sump? No, not if it is vented off and there is not pathway or mechanism for air getting into the sump 7. If air in the sump is not the problem, then what is? Then, it would seem to be a faulty instrument (float only semi-buoyant) or a faulty signal. and so on. Of course, if any of the answers in the question-path are wrong or different than we think, then that limb breaks off the tree. I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence because this is pretty simple stuff. I've found difficult problems can be simple to solve with a structured approach and simple problems can be difficult to solve with a shotgun approach. I've used both! With that said, I'm still working on the unbalanced tank draw-down problem. I have a long trip scheduled next week, so I'll be able to test the theory that I'm unbalanced (which comes as no surprise to a lot of people) and that I need to shim the rudder slightly. I just installed a new set of GAMInjectors this morning so I'm looking to get some good "lean test" numbers to see if the balance has improved. I was confident that my engine was "pretty good" in that area because it does run smooth. NOT. There was 2.1 gph difference between peak EGT across my cylinders as I leaned out. 1.0 gph is OK, 0.7 is acceptable and and <0.5 is an excellent target. That's probably why the 540 started to run rough in the LOP region. In sum, mine numbers were kind of pathetic side. The single gph or two that are saved will probably never recover the cost of the injectors but if running cooler and smoother increases TBO a hundred or two hours, now we're talking real money. And, like many things, it feels good for it to be right! Gotta go. Have some OSH flight planning to do. Chuck min@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:06 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Why would you jump to the assumption it's air in the tank? Without a sightglass, or replacing that run of tubing to the sump neoprene or something, we don't have any idea what's causing the indication. Could just as easily be a defect inside the instrument. My whole contention was that, if air is entering the sump, it's probably for the best b/c the alternative is most likely to pull a vacuum on the tank. Air doesn't displace fuel without a reason. Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: alventures To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Al, This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting into the sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems the most likely route. Keith Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent warning is due to a low level in the sump tank and not a problem with the float switch, or something else. After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent seems to make sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, and not convenient to get at. And it doesn't preclude fuel exhaustion in the case of a leaky fuel cap. If we are going to keep a simple gravity feed system from both tanks, we have to pay attention to the fuel caps, and be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the other. Let's see; if we could just find a different place to put the fuel cap; someplace that doesn't happen to see about the maximum negative pressure of anywhere on the airplane. Al ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35393.CAA213E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Brett,

I suspect the point is, why did the air get into the sump or how logical is it that air is actually in the sump or, if that is not logical, then it does point to a faulty instrument. An investigation tree might look like:

Air in sump:

    1.    From the either tank?

                No, both tanks were full and fuel outlets were always covered

    2.    From the vent line?

                No, the sump vent line is open and there is no source for the line to be pressurized to blow air into sump

    3.    Did the sump become starved for fuel from the tanks and pull air in through the vent?

                No, flow paths open and if it was that starved, the engine would have stopped.

    4.    Was air in the sump all the time and just hadn't been vented off

                No, the vent to the sump was always open and air should have been displaced by gravity flow of fuel.

    5.    Do we know for sure that there is air in the sump?

                No, we only infer that because we are getting the low fuel signal.

    6.    Is it logical that air is actually in the sump?

                No, not if it is vented off and there is not pathway or mechanism for air getting into the sump

    7.   If air in the sump is not the problem, then what is?

                Then, it would seem to be a faulty instrument (float only semi-buoyant) or a faulty signal.

and so on. Of course, if any of the answers in the question-path are wrong or different than we think, then that limb breaks off the tree.

I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence because this is pretty simple stuff.  I've found difficult problems can be simple to solve with a structured approach and simple problems can be difficult to solve with a shotgun approach. I've used both!

With that said, I'm still working on the unbalanced tank draw-down problem. I have a long trip scheduled next week, so I'll be able to test the theory that I'm unbalanced (which comes as no surprise to a lot of people) and that I need to shim the rudder slightly.

I just installed a new set of GAMInjectors this morning so I'm looking to get some good "lean test" numbers to see if the balance has improved. I was confident that my engine was "pretty good" in that area because it does run smooth. NOT. There was 2.1 gph difference between peak EGT across my cylinders as I leaned out. 1.0 gph is OK, 0.7 is acceptable and and <0.5 is an excellent target. That's probably why the 540 started to run rough in the LOP region. In sum, mine numbers were kind of pathetic side.

The single gph or two that are saved will probably never recover the cost of the injectors but if running cooler and smoother increases TBO a hundred or two hours, now we're talking real money. And, like many things, it feels good for it to be right!

Gotta go. Have some OSH flight planning to do.

Chuck

min@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:06 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Why would you jump to the assumption it's air in the tank? Without a sightglass, or replacing that run of tubing to the sump neoprene or something, we don't have any idea what's causing the indication. Could just as easily be a defect inside the instrument. My whole contention was that, if air is entering the sump, it's probably for the best b/c the alternative is most likely to pull a vacuum on the tank. Air doesn't displace fuel without a reason.

Brett

----- Original Message -----

From: alventures

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:56 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Al,

This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting into the sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems the most likely route.

Keith

Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent warning is due to a low level in the sump tank and not a problem with the float switch, or something else.

After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent seems to make sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, and not convenient to get at. And it doesn't preclude fuel exhaustion in the case of a leaky fuel cap. If we are going to keep a simple gravity feed system from both tanks, we have to pay attention to the fuel caps, and be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the other.

Let's see; if we could just find a different place to put the fuel cap; someplace that doesn't happen to see about the maximum negative pressure of anywhere on the airplane.

Al
------_=_NextPart_001_01C35393.CAA213E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 17:35:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:35:05 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Fred Marconi Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 10:06 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 Scott: It might seem that I am, it's just that some Latinos have a habit of speaking loud since no one listens to them. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:52 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 > Fred. > > Your yelling again! > > Scott ;-) > > Fred Marconi wrote: > > Bob, > > > > I am very much interested, could you please forward me all the > > information you have. I have and UPSAT mx-20 as well. > > > > Fred > > N244FM > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SlvEgl99@aol.com > > To: Reflector@awpi.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:59 PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 > > > > Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my > > Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is > > much like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is > > updated every 5 minutes and includes both graphic and text > > information (METARS and TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status > > (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting station. > > > > There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is > > intersted I will give more detail. > > > > Bob Wood > > N658SE > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 17:21:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:21:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Hacker damage Message-ID: <000401c35392$02b62d10$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> FYI friends, For those that my visit my Online Velocity Construction Log. A hacker was able to get to my guestbook. They were able to put some links to some offensive material as well as delete all of the entries. I was able to recover from a backup. Unfortunately, some of the later entries were lost. I believe I have closed the loophole that they were able to use to do this. I'm passing this on so those that left comments should know that I didn't delete your comments. This community has been very supportive and I am grateful. Best, Andy From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 11:15:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rick) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:15:25 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000a01c352f7$a4a321a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> <042c01c35376$a8327030$0100a8c0@micron> Message-ID: <001501c3535e$f262d360$2c52a341@spectrum> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C3535E.D4DA1880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightIn this same discussion a year or two ago, = it was determined in one case, that the fuel flow itself towards the = float was forcing it down, causing the low fuel indication. Rick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brett Ferrell=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 1:05 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Why would you jump to the assumption it's air in the tank? Without a = sightglass, or replacing that run of tubing to the sump neoprene or = something, we don't have any idea what's causing the indication. Could = just as easily be a defect inside the instrument. My whole contention = was that, if air is entering the sump, it's probably for the best b/c = the alternative is most likely to pull a vacuum on the tank. Air = doesn't displace fuel without a reason. Brett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alventures=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Al, This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel = warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting into the = sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep the = strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems the most = likely route. Keith Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent = warning is due to a low level in the sump tank and not a problem with = the float switch, or something else. After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent = seems to make sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, = and not convenient to get at. And it doesn't preclude fuel exhaustion = in the case of a leaky fuel cap. If we are going to keep a simple = gravity feed system from both tanks, we have to pay attention to the = fuel caps, and be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the = other. Let's see; if we could just find a different place to put the fuel = cap; someplace that doesn't happen to see about the maximum negative = pressure of anywhere on the airplane. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C3535E.D4DA1880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
In this same discussion a year or two = ago, it was=20 determined in one case, that the fuel flow itself towards the float was = forcing=20 it down, causing the low fuel indication.

Rick

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brett=20 Ferrell
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 = 1:05=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

Why would you jump to the assumption = it's air in=20 the tank? Without a sightglass, or replacing that run of = tubing to=20 the sump neoprene or something, we don't have any idea what's causing = the=20 indication. Could just as easily be a defect inside the=20 instrument. My whole contention was that, if air is entering the = sump,=20 it's probably for the best b/c the alternative is most likely to pull = a vacuum=20 on the tank. Air doesn't displace fuel without a=20 reason.

Brett

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 alventures=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 = 5:56=20 PM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low = fuel=20 light

Al,

This thread started = with Rene's=20 problem with occasional low-fuel warning with plenty of fuel on = board. =20 How is the air getting into the sump tank if the strake tanks have = enough=20 fuel to keep the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump = vent=20 seems the most likely route.

Keith

Yes, I agree=20 with that; assuming of, course, that the intermittent warning is = due to a=20 low level in the sump tank and not a problem with the float = switch, or=20 something else.

After giving=20 the issue more thought, the valve in the sump vent seems to make=20 sense. Although it is one more thing on the checklist, and = not=20 convenient to get at. And it doesn=92t preclude fuel = exhaustion in the=20 case of a leaky fuel cap. If we are going to keep a simple = gravity=20 feed system from both tanks, we have to pay attention to the fuel = caps,=20 and be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the=20 other.

Let=92s see; if=20 we could just find a different place to put the fuel cap; = someplace that=20 doesn=92t happen to see about the maximum negative pressure of = anywhere on=20 the airplane.

Al
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C3535E.D4DA1880-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 19:30:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:30:16 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <000a01c352f7$a4a321a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> <042c01c35376$a8327030$0100a8c0@micron> <001501c3535e$f262d360$2c52a341@spectrum> Message-ID: <002b01c353a3$f6206a40$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C35369.497E6EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel lightNow THAT is interesting! If the flow of = fuel is actually pushing the float down, the solution would be to change = to the GEMS optical presence switch instead of the mechanical float = switch. However, Rene' reported that this is an unusual, brief event = during cruise. I would think that if it's the sensor or its = installation that it would occur fairly regularly. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rick=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:15 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In this same discussion a year or two ago, it was determined in one = case, that the fuel flow itself towards the float was forcing it down, = causing the low fuel indication. Rick ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C35369.497E6EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light
Now THAT is interesting! If the = flow of fuel=20 is actually pushing the float down, the solution would be to change to = the GEMS=20 optical presence switch instead of the mechanical float switch. = However,=20 Rene' reported that this is an unusual, brief event during = cruise. I=20 would think that if it's the sensor or its installation that it would = occur=20 fairly regularly.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rick =
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 = 3:15=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

In this same discussion a year or two = ago, it was=20 determined in one case, that the fuel flow itself towards the float = was=20 forcing it down, causing the low fuel indication.

Rick
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C35369.497E6EC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 19:47:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:47:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:wings and epoxy References: <006e01c3538c$f101cde0$320e55d8@sugarridge> Message-ID: <006301c353a6$5fb24120$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C35384.D84513A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI Noel, Here's one way to calculate how much epoxy is needed. Weigh the cloth (or multiply the sq feet of area to be glassed times the = ounces per sq yard - 23 oz for triax) needed to cover the wings. The amount of epoxy needed is the same number of ounces as the cloth = weighs. Well not exactly but close enough for estimating. Then = calculate how many gallons this number of ounces equals. You'll need to = add some for the microslurry but not much. I used a postal scale for all of my lay-ups. Weigh the cloth, then mix = up the same amount of epoxy. I wasted very little epoxy. And I used = this method to figure out how much more epoxy I needed when I ran out = with my fast build kit. As I recall, I had to order two more gallons = (this is a random bit of info - nothing to do with your wings!) I hope I see you next year at Oshkosh! Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Noel Gattenby=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 11:45 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:wings and epoxy For those of us that didn't get fast build wings... How much epoxy does it take to glass the wings? I'm about to start that project and want to make sure I've got = enough.. On another note..a pack of 20 - 25 T-6's just flew over, =20 I could hear them from inside the house when they were still 2-3 miles = away... I wish I was following them north to Oshkosh... Noel ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C35384.D84513A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HI Noel,

Here's one way to calculate how much epoxy is=20 needed.

Weigh the cloth (or multiply the sq feet = of area to be=20 glassed times the ounces per sq yard - 23 oz for triax) needed to cover = the=20 wings.

The amount of epoxy needed is the same number of = ounces as the=20 cloth weighs. Well not exactly but close enough for = estimating. Then=20 calculate how many gallons this number of ounces equals. You'll = need to=20 add some for the microslurry but not much.

I used a postal scale for all of my lay-ups. = Weigh the=20 cloth, then mix up the same amount of epoxy. I wasted very little=20 epoxy. And I used this method to figure out how much more epoxy I = needed=20 when I ran out with my fast build kit. As I recall, I had to order = two=20 more gallons (this is a random bit of info - nothing to do with your=20 wings!)

I hope I see you next year at Oshkosh!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Noel=20 Gattenby
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 = 11:45=20 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:wings and = epoxy

For those of us that didn't get fast = build=20 wings...

How much epoxy does it take to glass = the=20 wings?

I'm about to start that project and = want to make=20 sure I've got enough..

On another note..a pack of 20 - 25 = T-6's just=20 flew over,

I could hear them from inside the = house when they=20 were still 2-3 miles away...

I wish I was following them north to=20 Oshkosh...

Noel
------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C35384.D84513A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 20:19:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:19:09 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> I think the sensor in the sump is more confusing than it is helpful. I think a sight glass would be ideal. Yesterday I took a 6.5 hour trip. The low fuel light did not come on until five minutes after takeoff. At first it just flashed occasionally. By the time I got to cruise at 8500 it was on all the time, but went off and immediately back on once in a while, so I figured the fuel level must be stable at the sensor level. It's always been this way, and prior to the current discussion I didn't give it much thought, figuring that if there is fuel in both tanks, the sump has to be full. But the idea of vacuum on the tank from a leaky cap makes me wonder. What about the tank vent which points forward? Doesn't this tend to pressurize the tank with a ram air effect? It seems that any cap leak would have to be larger than the size of the vent opening in order for a vacuum to occur and I can't imagine such a big leak unless the cap is completely off. It seems like the tanks would have a slight pressure from the vent. Also, at 40 gallons of fuel remaining, one tank was 5 gallons lower than the other. Applying the opposite rudder equalized the tanks and I was planning on shimming my rudder like Scot mentioned, until the fuel got down to 16 gallons. At that point, both tanks were even and remained that way. However at about that time I descended to 4500 to get under some clouds. Maybe altitude makes a difference. John From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 21:16:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:16:39 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: You know what? This whole fuel thing is pretty stupid! It seems everyone is flying around with blinking lights, inaccurate indications and fuel tanks that feed however they have a mind to, don't know if their sumps are venting or burping. Yee gads. This is stupid. Probably the single most important element of flight, fuel, and we don't know and can't tell when it flows, whether it'll flow, if its flowing and what's left to flow. If this were my problem, I'd assign it to one of our engineers. Then the next day, I'd take him aside and brow-beat the hell out of him for letting this inane stupidity go on. Yikes, it is my problem! This is probably a novel, even revolutionary idea but how about some disinterested third party, like Velocity, issuing a white paper on the fuel system and how it is supposed to be set up and all the tips, tricks and traps on a good fuel system? Or, is it that we aren't smart enough to correctly follow the building instructions, which are, in fact, correct? I will leave now to say my prayers of penance for this ugly outburst. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John Dibble Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:19 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light I think the sensor in the sump is more confusing than it is helpful. I think a sight glass would be ideal. Yesterday I took a 6.5 hour trip. The low fuel light did not come on until five minutes after takeoff. At first it just flashed occasionally. By the time I got to cruise at 8500 it was on all the time, but went off and immediately back on once in a while, so I figured the fuel level must be stable at the sensor level. It's always been this way, and prior to the current discussion I didn't give it much thought, figuring that if there is fuel in both tanks, the sump has to be full. But the idea of vacuum on the tank from a leaky cap makes me wonder. What about the tank vent which points forward? Doesn't this tend to pressurize the tank with a ram air effect? It seems that any cap leak would have to be larger than the size of the vent opening in order for a vacuum to occur and I can't imagine such a big leak unless the cap is completely off. It seems like the tanks would have a slight pressure from the vent. Also, at 40 gallons of fuel remaining, one tank was 5 gallons lower than the other. Applying the opposite rudder equalized the tanks and I was planning on shimming my rudder like Scot mentioned, until the fuel got down to 16 gallons. At that point, both tanks were even and remained that way. However at about that time I descended to 4500 to get under some clouds. Maybe altitude makes a difference. John _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 21:53:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:53:22 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: Your right on Chuck... Why doesn't the factory re-design it to be a positive flow system and be done with it... Maybe there afraid the re-design may indicate that a problem existed in the first place... Pilot error is un-controllable...But, fuel starvation due to poor design can be fixed and should be... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 23:22:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:22:04 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: <168.21e94c82.2c54590c@aol.com> --part1_168.21e94c82.2c54590c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On my XL, the only time I ever see any low fuel flashing light is at 10,500 feet or so. That has happened twice, once over Southern California going over the mountains, and once here in Florida seeking a way past a thunderstorm. In both cases I was at cruise, but obviously had an increased angle of attack due to thin air at altitude (or so I thought). The warning light would flash on for a second then be off for 5-10 seconds then flash again. As soon as I started a descent the light remained off. I attrubuted this to "mushing along" a bit at high altitude and reduced air speed causing high pressure on the vent line. Maybe just a stupid thought, but it gave me confidence to remain at that altitude and complete the flight that I wanted to. Bob Wood --part1_168.21e94c82.2c54590c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On my XL, the only time I ever see any low fuel flashi= ng light is at 10,500 feet or so. That has happened twice, once over Souther= n California going over the mountains, and once here in Florida seeking a wa= y past a thunderstorm. In both cases I was at cruise, but obviously had an i= ncreased angle of attack due to thin air at altitude (or so I thought). The=20= warning light would flash on for a second then be off for 5-10 seconds then=20= flash again. As soon as I started a descent the light remained off.

I attrubuted this to "mushing along" a bit at high altitude and reduced air=20= speed causing high pressure on the vent line. Maybe just a stupid thou= ght, but it gave me confidence to remain at that altitude and complete the f= light that I wanted to.

Bob Wood --part1_168.21e94c82.2c54590c_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat Jul 26 23:36:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:36:12 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You know, we built our 173RG per the original plans of 1993, and we have not had any of the problems that it appears people are having now with fuel management on their velocities. Our tanks flow evenly, and the sump always remains full until the tanks are both empty, and our low fuel warning only goes off when I key my mic on certain frequencies (only need to get time to add a capacitor to the power leads on the thing), so I don't think there is a design flaw with the system. Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:53 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Your right on Chuck... Why doesn't the factory re-design it to be a positive flow system and be done with it... Maybe there afraid the re-design may indicate that a problem existed in the first place... Pilot error is un-controllable...But, fuel starvation due to poor design can be fixed and should be... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 00:02:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:02:15 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> John, The point I've been trying to make (not very successfully) is that the valveless manifold vent system will either pressurize (or not) BOTH the strake tanks and the sump tank. A little (relative) air pressure in the strake tanks is a good thing, and helps push the fuel to the sump tank. Conversely, a little pressure in the sump tank RESISTS the flow of fuel into the sump tank from the strakes. With the valveless manifold, these effects SHOULD cancel each other out. It's not clear whether the net effect is really absolutely zero. If the vent to the sump tank is eliminated (or shut off), the small positive pressure from a forward-facing vent absolutely WILL assist in the flow of fuel to the sump. I have yet to see any evidence or convincing logic that the sump tank vent is needed. Pat Shea has proven experimentally that the sump tank will not trap air if the sump vent is closed off. The vent system is pressurizing (or not) the entire system of tanks now, and isolating the sump tank will not induce any higher pressure in the strake tanks than already exists, so I don't see any increased risk on that aspect. The only thing we should be careful about is assuring that the vent does not suck on the strake tanks; a little forward bend on the free end of the vent should take care of that! Can anyone make a physics-based case that the sump tank vent should be used? It would make my day to find out that I've overlooked something! Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > I didn't give it much thought, figuring that if there is fuel in both tanks, the > sump has to be full. But the idea of vacuum on the tank from a leaky > cap makes me wonder. What about the tank vent which points forward? > Doesn't this tend to pressurize the tank with a ram air effect? It > seems that any cap leak would have to be larger than the size of the > vent opening in order for a vacuum to occur and I can't imagine such a > big leak unless the cap is completely off. It seems like the tanks > would have a slight pressure from the vent. > John From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 00:17:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:17:27 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <168.21e94c82.2c54590c@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c353cc$1424dda0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C35391.679CD2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, Thanks for the data point! Your analysis seems logical to me, except = that reduced indicated airspeed is LOWER pressure in the vent line = (provided that the vent opening faces forward, somewhat like a pitot = tube). If the vent line doesn't face forward, maybe the slight nose-up = attitude at higher elevations is enough to increase the (relative) = pressure on the bottom of the fuselage, where the vent inlet is located. = Either way, if we applied some positive pressure to the strake tanks = that we did NOT apply to the sump tank, it would help to keep the sump = tank full! Keith =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light On my XL, the only time I ever see any low fuel flashing light is at = 10,500 feet or so. That has happened twice, once over Southern = California going over the mountains, and once here in Florida seeking a = way past a thunderstorm. In both cases I was at cruise, but obviously = had an increased angle of attack due to thin air at altitude (or so I = thought). The warning light would flash on for a second then be off for = 5-10 seconds then flash again. As soon as I started a descent the light = remained off. I attrubuted this to "mushing along" a bit at high altitude and = reduced air speed causing high pressure on the vent line. Maybe just a = stupid thought, but it gave me confidence to remain at that altitude and = complete the flight that I wanted to.=20 Bob Wood ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C35391.679CD2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,

Thanks for the data point! Your = analysis=20 seems logical to me, except that reduced indicated airspeed is LOWER = pressure in=20 the vent line (provided that the vent opening faces forward, = somewhat like=20 a pitot tube). If the vent line doesn't face forward, maybe the = slight=20 nose-up attitude at higher elevations is enough to increase the = (relative)=20 pressure on the bottom of the fuselage, where the vent inlet is = located. =20 Either way, if we applied some positive pressure to the strake tanks = that we did=20 NOT apply to the sump tank, it would help to keep the sump tank=20 full!

Keith

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 = 3:22=20 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

On my XL, the only time I ever see any low fuel = flashing=20 light is at 10,500 feet or so. That has happened twice, once over = Southern=20 California going over the mountains, and once here in Florida seeking = a way=20 past a thunderstorm. In both cases I was at cruise, but obviously had = an=20 increased angle of attack due to thin air at altitude (or so I = thought). The=20 warning light would flash on for a second then be off for 5-10 seconds = then=20 flash again. As soon as I started a descent the light remained = off.

I=20 attrubuted this to "mushing along" a bit at high altitude and reduced = air=20 speed causing high pressure on the vent line. Maybe just a = stupid=20 thought, but it gave me confidence to remain at that altitude and = complete the=20 flight that I wanted to.

Bob Wood=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C35391.679CD2C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 00:33:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:33:06 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <002701c353ce$43e734a0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Steve, These are experimental airplanes, and it is OUR responsibility as their builders to incorporate a fuel system that we have confidence in, based on sound logic, experience, and experiment. There is no evidence that fuel starvation is associated with the current fuel system design, except that the fuel caps must be maintained to seal positively. What we are discussing is how to rid ourselves of nuisance "low fuel" alarms, while maintaining the benefits of a low fuel warning system. The current fuel system DOES work. I am just in the process of developing the opinion that the sump tank vent is superflous, not that it is dangerous. It is possible (but not proven) that it may contribute to air in the sump tank under certain conditions, with the associated low fuel alarms. I know that some Velocitys have been flown with the sump tank vent closed off - does anyone have direct experience with this to share? I want to take advantage of all information available while exercising MY RESPONSIBILITY to install the best fuel system I can in my plane! Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 1:53 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Your right on Chuck... > > Why doesn't the factory re-design it to be a positive flow system and be > done with it... > Maybe there afraid the re-design may indicate that a problem existed in the > first place... > Pilot error is un-controllable...But, fuel starvation due to poor design can > be fixed and should be... > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 00:45:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:45:18 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <002b01c353cf$fb22e690$0300a8c0@DAD> Huh? Are you suggesting that Velocity is afraid to design a safe fuel schematic??! We fly with this same fuel schematic every day - trusting it with our lives and the lives of people who are going on demonstration rides and the lives of Velocity owners going through flight transition training. How can you say such a thing?? Dang Steve! Think about what you just said. SB ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:53 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Your right on Chuck... > > Why doesn't the factory re-design it to be a positive flow system and be > done with it... > Maybe there afraid the re-design may indicate that a problem existed in the > first place... > Pilot error is un-controllable...But, fuel starvation due to poor design can > be fixed and should be... > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 01:46:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:46:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: SB I doubt that's what Steve said. I think he was reflecting on what we've seen at big companies who, for liability reasons, refuse to admit they've got a bum product, i.e. cigarette companies refusal to design a "safe" cigarette. For sake of discussion, it was a simply rhetorical query. Now to the point, if the Velocity demo aircraft flies every day with exactly the same schematic, why then are these anomalies and annoyances occurring. Inquiring minds want to know. Each individual has a data point or two, but no one really is in position to pull all the data points together to make a graph. I don't know that that's necessarily the responsibility of Velocity, but I'm sure Velocity takes a serious interest in it. On a personal basis, I'm really fascinated with the sump vent thing. I have had no problems whatsoever with my sump or indication, however, there are at least two data points that indicate no vent is required and, to my feeble mind, this seems counter-intuitive to what I would expect. I wonder, if air gets in the sump, where is it supposed to go: 1. To the engine? Let's hope not. 2. Into the tanks? The only way this will happen is if the diameter of the fuel line from the strake is sufficiently large that capillary occlusion will be avoided and sufficiently large that the upward pressure of the air is great enough to overcome the downward flow of the fuel. In a 1" line, no problem, 1/2" line probably no problem, 3/8" and smaller, who knows. Perhaps the few that do fly without a sump vent have very straight/vertically aligned lines. Clearly, if there was any apex/hump in the line, where air could get trapped, the likelihood of fuel going down and air up drops sharply. Can we say air-locked. At the risk of display my ample ignorance of the fuel vent system, it would seem if both tanks and the sump all vented to a common manifold, then that manifold is vented overboard, it seems to be near impossible to get an imbalance between tanks or sump, since are all interconnected. This is so simple that is must have been done, or was tried and failed for (un)obvious reasons. So SB, no one is impugning Velocities interest in safety. What is happening is there is a knowledge vacuum that isn't being filled, either by us experimenters or Velocity. And, you know how nature abhors a vacuum. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Baker Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Huh? Are you suggesting that Velocity is afraid to design a safe fuel schematic??! We fly with this same fuel schematic every day - trusting it with our lives and the lives of people who are going on demonstration rides and the lives of Velocity owners going through flight transition training. How can you say such a thing?? Dang Steve! Think about what you just said. SB ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:53 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Your right on Chuck... > > Why doesn't the factory re-design it to be a positive flow system and be > done with it... > Maybe there afraid the re-design may indicate that a problem existed in the > first place... > Pilot error is un-controllable...But, fuel starvation due to poor design can > be fixed and should be... > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 01:14:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:14:29 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: --part1_c.15dd9712.2c547365_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I might add that Velocity is continually improving things. Not too many years back many planes were built with rubber fuel lines, Velocity took the lead in getting us to use aluminum lines and then to use larger lines to enhance fuel flow and venting. I spent a year at Velocity building my XL in the Service Center and I assure you that the Scotts (Swing and Baker) Mike, Brendon, Frank, et.al. are continually seeking ways to make these things more dependable, easier to build and so on. While I was at the Service Center I had the fortune (I think) of seeing a number of planes come in for conditional inspections and so on. Guys, there's a hellova lot of junk out there. Velocity cures what they can. Bob Wood N658SE --part1_c.15dd9712.2c547365_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I might add that Velocity is continually improving thi= ngs. Not too many years back many planes were built with rubber fuel lines,=20= Velocity took the lead in getting us to use aluminum lines and then to use l= arger lines to enhance fuel flow and venting. I spent a year at Velocity bui= lding my XL in the Service Center and I assure you that the Scotts (Swing an= d Baker) Mike, Brendon, Frank, et.al. are continually seeking ways to make t= hese things more dependable, easier to build and so on. While I was at the S= ervice Center I had the fortune (I think) of seeing a number of planes come=20= in for conditional inspections and so on. Guys, there's a hellova lot of jun= k out there. Velocity cures what they can.

Bob Wood
N658SE --part1_c.15dd9712.2c547365_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 01:29:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:29:29 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <049601c353d6$24f07130$0100a8c0@micron> Keith, I still think that each tank tank should be indepedently vented for safety, from over or under pressurization. Here's a physics-based reason you might want a vent. Say your fuel contains entrained air from splashing in the tanks at filling tmie.... you start flying and the vapor pressure in the tanks goes down due to altitude... air bubbles come out of solution and you have 2-phase flow, with large bubbles particularly gathering/frothing in top of the sump as the velocity changes (leaving a small pipe to the wide sump).... then that bubble is allowed to go to vent rather than down the drain to the engine. Does that really happen? Dunno, but I think it could, and I still don't see any solid theory as to what problem the sump vent can cause. Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "KeithHallsten" To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:02 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > John, {snip} > > Can anyone make a physics-based case that the sump tank vent should be used? > It would make my day to find out that I've overlooked something! > > Keith > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Dibble" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 02:43:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:43:09 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> You tell 'em Scott, this stuff cracks me up! A whole lot of noise about and obvious and basically mute point. We have been flying with the same warning for the past 10-15 years. What the hell do we need, some one to knock us in the head and remind us to do our pilot stuff and manage the airplane?? What do you find in a certified that relates to this subject, NOTHING!!!! There seems to be a preconception about the factory in that they are the bad guys that don't care about the customer after the sale. Oh really, that's total BS. The systems work fine, if you are incapable of managing the factory designed system then come up with a better idea and share it with all of us - after you have proven that it is a better solution, that is... Wayne Lanza Composite Design, Inc. ________________________________________________________________________ > > From: "Scott Baker" > Date: 2003/07/26 Sat PM 07:45:18 EDT > To: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Huh? Are you suggesting that Velocity is afraid to design a safe fuel > schematic??! > We fly with this same fuel schematic every day - trusting it with our lives > and the lives of people who are going on demonstration rides and the lives > of Velocity owners going through flight transition training. How can you > say such a thing?? Dang Steve! Think about what you just said. > SB > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve korney" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:53 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Your right on Chuck... > > > > Why doesn't the factory re-design it to be a positive flow system and be > > done with it... > > Maybe there afraid the re-design may indicate that a problem existed in > the > > first place... > > Pilot error is un-controllable...But, fuel starvation due to poor design > can > > be fixed and should be... > > > > > > Best... Steve > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 03:01:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 22:01:15 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Prop Balancer References: <25.3c2cc40c.2c52cf12@aol.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c353e2$f6ac30e0$22694ed8@mshome.net> I got a letter from Norman giving the new phone # ,480-926-5550 & 480-529-4455 cellular From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 03:34:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 22:34:09 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Low Fuel Light, my solution Message-ID: After my accident of June 1999, I installed the low fuel level float switch in my sump tank. I also was getting flashing low fuel level fuel light at various times such as left turn. First a fuel level sight tube was temporarily installed on my sump tank with a light shinning on it. This is easily done by adding tees at the sump tank fuel outlet and at the vent outlet. The sight tube showed that some sloshing of the fuel, and not low fuel was causing the flashing light. My solution was an adjustable time delay (from 1 sec to 10 sec) installed between the float switch and the light. I now have the time delay set at 6 seconds and have not had a problem since. There is one condition where a vent is needed for the sump. More than once, Jean Prudhomme, during a long descent with relatively low fuel, has had a low sump fuel warning. He determined that the nose down attitude caused the fuel from the strake tanks to unport and stop flowing to the sump. He simply leveled out and light soon went out. He does have the large 90 gallon tanks. I believe this has also happened on the factory airplane. Finally I use and have the following warning on my panel " At least every 30 minutes, check the fuel level in both wing tanks. IF an UNUSUAL IMBALANCE, is seen (5 to 10 gals) ASSUME FULLEST TANK IS UNUSABLE" This is a possible sign of a leaking fuel cap and fullest tank may not flow to sump. Don White N19DW XL/RG From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 03:33:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:33:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <3F233A0B.4D9DA6E5@dixie-net.com> I want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system. John From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 04:01:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 22:01:19 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <3F23407F.67EED4E3@dixie-net.com> Keith How does an unvented sump not trap air? How about shutting off the manifold vents to the tanks? The tank overflow lines will provide tank venting, when needed, and maintain the tank pressure above the sump vent pressure during flight. A float type check valve in the sump vent line will allow any air to escape while preventing fuel being forced out the vent. John KeithHallsten wrote: > Pat Shea has proven > experimentally that the sump tank will not trap air if the sump vent is > closed off. > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 04:14:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:14:45 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2343A5.9040005@tnstaafl.net> Chuck, Let us know how the Gami's work out. I'm lucky that my IO360 will run 50 to 75 LOP now that I have the EI installed. I wonder how much better things would be if I caughed up the dough for a set of Gami's. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > Brett, > > I suspect the point is, why did the air get into the sump or how logical > is it that air is actually in the sump or, if that is not logical, then > it does point to a faulty instrument. An investigation tree might look > like: > > Air in sump: > 1. From the either tank? > No, both tanks were full and fuel outlets were always > covered > 2. From the vent line? > No, the sump vent line is open and there is no source > for the line to be pressurized to blow air into sump > 3. Did the sump become starved for fuel from the tanks and pull > air in through the vent? > No, flow paths open and if it was that starved, the > engine would have stopped. > 4. Was air in the sump all the time and just hadn't been vented off > No, the vent to the sump was always open and air should > have been displaced by gravity flow of fuel. > 5. Do we know for sure that there is air in the sump? > No, we only infer that because we are getting the low > fuel signal. > 6. Is it logical that air is actually in the sump? > No, not if it is vented off and there is not pathway or > mechanism for air getting into the sump > 7. If air in the sump is not the problem, then what is? > Then, it would seem to be a faulty instrument (float > only semi-buoyant) or a faulty signal. > > and so on. Of course, if any of the answers in the question-path are > wrong or different than we think, then that limb breaks off the tree. > > I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence because this is pretty > simple stuff. I've found difficult problems can be simple to solve with > a structured approach and simple problems can be difficult to solve with > a shotgun approach. I've used both! > > With that said, I'm still working on the unbalanced tank draw-down > problem. I have a long trip scheduled next week, so I'll be able to > test the theory that I'm unbalanced (which comes as no surprise to a lot > of people) and that I need to shim the rudder slightly. > > I just installed a new set of GAMInjectors this morning so I'm looking > to get some good "lean test" numbers to see if the balance has > improved. I was confident that my engine was "pretty good" in that area > because it does run smooth. NOT. There was 2.1 gph difference between > peak EGT across my cylinders as I leaned out. 1.0 gph is OK, 0.7 is > acceptable and and <0.5 is an excellent target. That's probably why the > 540 started to run rough in the LOP region. In sum, mine numbers were > kind of pathetic side. > > The single gph or two that are saved will probably never recover the > cost of the injectors but if running cooler and smoother increases TBO a > hundred or two hours, now we're talking real money. And, like many > things, it feels good for it to be right! > > Gotta go. Have some OSH flight planning to do. > > Chuck > > > > min@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:06 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Why would you jump to the assumption it's air in the tank? Without > a sightglass, or replacing that run of tubing to the sump neoprene > or something, we don't have any idea what's causing the indication. > Could just as easily be a defect inside the instrument. My whole > contention was that, if air is entering the sump, it's probably for > the best b/c the alternative is most likely to pull a vacuum on the > tank. Air doesn't displace fuel without a reason. > > Brett > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: alventures > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:56 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Al, > > > > This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel > warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting > into the sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep > the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems > the most likely route. > > > > Keith > > > > Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the > intermittent warning is due to a low level in the sump tank > and not a problem with the float switch, or something else. > > > > After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump > vent seems to make sense. Although it is one more thing on > the checklist, and not convenient to get at. And it doesn't > preclude fuel exhaustion in the case of a leaky fuel cap. > If we are going to keep a simple gravity feed system from > both tanks, we have to pay attention to the fuel caps, and > be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the other. > > > > Let's see; if we could just find a different place to put > the fuel cap; someplace that doesn't happen to see about the > maximum negative pressure of anywhere on the airplane. > > > > Al > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 04:26:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:26:48 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F234678.4080504@tnstaafl.net> Bob, The brief 8 days I was in Sebastian getting my newly bought Velocity in shape for a flight home to NM I was impressed with the integrity of the intire Velocity operation. Brendan was fantastic and helped me tremendously after work and on the weekend. If I had a question or needed help it was immediately answered or worked on. Can't say enough good things about the Velocity Team. Scott SlvEgl99@aol.com wrote: > I might add that Velocity is continually improving things. Not too many > years back many planes were built with rubber fuel lines, Velocity took > the lead in getting us to use aluminum lines and then to use larger > lines to enhance fuel flow and venting. I spent a year at Velocity > building my XL in the Service Center and I assure you that the Scotts > (Swing and Baker) Mike, Brendon, Frank, et.al. are continually seeking > ways to make these things more dependable, easier to build and so on. > While I was at the Service Center I had the fortune (I think) of seeing > a number of planes come in for conditional inspections and so on. Guys, > there's a hellova lot of junk out there. Velocity cures what they can. > > Bob Wood > N658SE From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 04:15:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:15:45 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <002b01c353a3$f6206a40$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> References: <000a01c352f7$a4a321a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> <042c01c35376$a8327030$0100a8c0@micron> <001501c3535e$f262d360$2c52a341@spectrum> <002b01c353a3$f6206a40$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <3F2343E1.6070308@tnstaafl.net> Well maybe the flow is just right at that GPH burn to hit the float straight on and trigger the alarm? Scott KeithHallsten wrote: > Now THAT is interesting! If the flow of fuel is actually pushing the > float down, the solution would be to change to the GEMS optical presence > switch instead of the mechanical float switch. However, Rene' reported > that this is an unusual, brief event during cruise. I would think that > if it's the sensor or its installation that it would occur fairly regularly. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rick > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:15 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > In this same discussion a year or two ago, it was determined in one > case, that the fuel flow itself towards the float was forcing it > down, causing the low fuel indication. > Rick From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 05:29:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:29:28 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent sytem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c353f7$ab2bd570$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C353BC.FECCFD70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has been an interesting discussion, and a lot of it focused on the vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the fuel system design. I think there is an element of the design which is an inherent weakness, and which is at the root of these observed problems. Consider that the bottom of our fuel tank is about at the bottom of the spar. The top of the sump tank is just below the spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple inches below that. Now note that a 1" head of fuel is only about 0.03 psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our tanks are full we have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the fuel to the sump when the sump is full. When the strake is nearly empty, that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as the sump drains down to expose the inlet from the strake, but that's as high as it's going to get no matter how far the sump drains - the head that drives the fuel can only go as far the exit at the sump. So how much of a disturbance does it take to cause a problem. Damn little - like a little cap leak, or partially plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is right there at the top of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no matter how temporary, the light goes on. Does this blinking light issue come up more frequently on Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at a higher rate? So one obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is that without the sump vent we don't have to rely on that very small gravity head for fuel feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to assist if needed. (of course if the fuel is very warm and the vapor pressure gets high there won't be much suction ability either, but that is not likely an issue). Now don't let these low pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did some flow tests a couple of years ago with a 3/8" vinyl tube where I could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a couple of things. One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, even with only a few inches of head, was "pretty fast". I didn't measure what that meant in gph, but I'm going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph just fine. And experience bears that out. Surely someone has measured the gravity flow from the tanks, right? What is it? The second thing was that air bubbles, for the most part, didn't seem to be an issue. With very low flow they would migrate up stream, but it didn't take much flow for them to easily get carried with the flow and into the container. These bubbles varied from very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube. I say 'for the most part' because there was one thing that caught my attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air in the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the fuel was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube. It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel. Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface. I don't know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to the sump is an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely to be submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the strake, and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air. It may take a little while for the air to resolve where it's going; upstream or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump it will hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when we open the purge valve. I can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way back to the strake; but, don't forget, that won't happen until the air builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the stake tank - at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or blinking. So the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in an airplane where the design doesn't give us much of a gravity head (pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus - simplicity. We can always do as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the fuel from the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, and maybe valving off the sump vent. One further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is bypassed back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the sump to avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of the sudden expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they will re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump vent. Sorry to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of what I post. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C353BC.FECCFD70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This has been an interesting discussion, and a lot = of it focused on the vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the = fuel system design. I think there is an element of the design which is = an inherent weakness, and which is at the root of these observed problems. =

Consider that the bottom of our fuel tank is about = at the bottom of the spar. The top of the sump tank is just below the = spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple inches below that. Now note = that a 1” head of fuel is only about 0.03 psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a = psi. When our tanks are full we have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the = fuel to the sump when the sump is full. When the strake is nearly empty, = that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as the = sump drains down to expose the inlet from the strake, but that’s as = high as it’s going to get no matter how far the sump drains – the head that = drives the fuel can only go as far the exit at the sump.

So how much of a disturbance does it take to cause = a problem. Damn little – like a little cap leak, or partially = plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is right there at the top = of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no matter how temporary, the = light goes on. Does this blinking light issue come up more frequently on = Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at a higher = rate?

So one obvious physics reason for = not having a vent to the sump tank is that without the sump vent we = don’t have to rely on that very small gravity head for fuel feed. The = fuel pump suction head is there to assist if needed. (of course if the fuel is very = warm and the vapor pressure gets high there won’t be much suction ability = either, but that is not likely an issue).

Now don’t let these low pressure head numbers = scare you too bad. I did some = flow tests a couple of years ago with a 3/8” vinyl tube where I could watch = what happened, and it convinced me of a couple of things. One is that, = because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, even with only a few inches of head, = was “pretty fast”. I didn’t measure what that meant in gph, but = I’m going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph just fine. And = experience bears that out. Surely someone has measured the gravity flow from = the tanks, right? What is it?

<= /font>

The second = thing was that air bubbles, for the most = part, didn’t seem to be an issue. With very low flow they would = migrate up stream, but it didn’t take much flow for them to easily get = carried with the flow and into the container. These bubbles varied from = very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube.

<= /font>

I say = ‘for the most part’ because there was one thing that caught my = attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air in the tube, = adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the fuel was very = reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube. It took a bit = of head to get that air to bubble into fuel. Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface. I don’t know if = this is an issue or not, but the entrance to the sump is an end of a tube = (though a different geometry) and it is likely to be submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the strake, and we do a little nose = down for awhile, the line could fill with air. It may take a little while = for the air to resolve where it’s going; upstream or into the sump = tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump it will hang around at the top of = the tank until the next preflight when we open the purge valve.

<= /font>

I can believe = that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way back to the strake; = but, don’t forget, that won’t happen until the air builds in the = top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the stake tank – at = which point the low fuel light will probably be on or blinking. =

<= /font>

So the = inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in an airplane = where the design doesn’t give us much of a gravity head = (pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus – simplicity. We can always do = as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the fuel from the = strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, and maybe valving off = the sump vent.

<= /font>

One further = note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is bypassed back from = the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the sump to avoid = the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of the = sudden expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they will = re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump = vent.

<= /font>

Sorry to = ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got posted, = because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of what I = post.

<= /font>

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C353BC.FECCFD70-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 05:42:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:42:23 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> Wayne, Scott, Methinks thou doest protest too much. I for one, do not consider a low fuel light being on for several hours of flight to be a mute point and I much appreciate the discussion and comments from others here. That's great that you trust the fuel schematic with your lives, but that's not a good enough reason for me to trust it. I would be more comfortable with a technical explanation as to why you think it's a good schematic and what is causing the fuel light to come on. John wlanza@bellsouth.net wrote: > You tell 'em Scott, this stuff cracks me up! A whole lot of noise about > and obvious and basically mute point. We have been flying with the same > warning for the past 10-15 years. What the hell do we need, some one to > knock us in the head and remind us to do our pilot stuff and manage the > airplane?? What do you find in a certified that relates to this subject, > NOTHING!!!! There seems to be a preconception about the factory in that > they are the bad guys that don't care about the customer after the sale. > Oh really, that's total BS. The systems work fine, if you are incapable > of managing the factory designed system then come up with a better idea > and share it with all of us - after you have proven that it is a better > solution, that is... > > Wayne Lanza > Composite Design, Inc. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > From: "Scott Baker" > > Date: 2003/07/26 Sat PM 07:45:18 EDT > > To: > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > Huh? Are you suggesting that Velocity is afraid to design a safe fuel > > schematic??! > > We fly with this same fuel schematic every day - trusting it with our lives > > and the lives of people who are going on demonstration rides and the lives > > of Velocity owners going through flight transition training. How can you > > say such a thing?? Dang Steve! Think about what you just said. > > SB > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steve korney" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:53 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > > > > > Your right on Chuck... > > > > > > Why doesn't the factory re-design it to be a positive flow system and be > > > done with it... > > > Maybe there afraid the re-design may indicate that a problem existed in > > the > > > first place... > > > Pilot error is un-controllable...But, fuel starvation due to poor design > > can > > > be fixed and should be... > > > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 07:31:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 02:31:22 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <3F233A0B.4D9DA6E5@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F2371B9.7F11978A@comcast.net> John, > I want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced > forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces > forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the > rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system. Isn't this backwards? But the bottom line is "How well does it work?" Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 07:57:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:57:41 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <3F23407F.67EED4E3@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <002901c3540c$5f944880$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> John, Pat Shea's tests proved that the sump tank will pass trapped air to the strake tanks, even when the plane is sitting on the ground. As soon as a tiny difference in head between the two strake tanks exists, the air will run up to one of the strake tanks through the fuel line. In flight these imbalances exist with each tiny rock of the wings. What happens is that you get a little slug of air going to one strake at the same time that you get a slug of fuel passing into the sump tank from the other strake. You are losing me with your mention of tank overflow lines. I don't see any such thing in the Velocity manual. Where exactly are these lines and how are they connected? We may just have a difference in terminology. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:01 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Keith > > How does an unvented sump not trap air? > How about shutting off the manifold vents to the tanks? The tank overflow lines will > provide tank venting, when needed, and maintain the tank pressure above the sump vent > pressure during flight. A float type check valve in the sump vent line will allow any > air to escape while preventing fuel being forced out the vent. > > John > > KeithHallsten wrote: > > > Pat Shea has proven > > experimentally that the sump tank will not trap air if the sump vent is > > closed off. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 08:28:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 00:28:39 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent sytem References: <000001c353f7$ab2bd570$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <003301c35410$b2fad9e0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C353D6.06607F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, Good post, with some good thought behind it. When I built my sump tank = (for a fixed-gear XL) I placed the fuel inlets at the extreme top corner = of the tank, so I don't think I would have any significant volume of = trapped air even if the vent line were eliminated completely. Since the = vent line is already installed, I plan to leave it in the system with a = valve to shut it off. Then I'll have the option to use it if my = theories all turn out to be bogus! I'll be a little surprised if I have = to exercise the "burp" valve to release trapped air, though.=20 Keith =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alventures=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:29 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent sytem This has been an interesting discussion, and a lot of it focused on = the vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the fuel system = design. I think there is an element of the design which is an inherent = weakness, and which is at the root of these observed problems.=20 Consider that the bottom of our fuel tank is about at the bottom of = the spar. The top of the sump tank is just below the spar. Our = friendly float valve just a couple inches below that. Now note that a = 1" head of fuel is only about 0.03 psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. = When our tanks are full we have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the = fuel to the sump when the sump is full. When the strake is nearly = empty, that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as = the sump drains down to expose the inlet from the strake, but that's as = high as it's going to get no matter how far the sump drains - the head = that drives the fuel can only go as far the exit at the sump. So how much of a disturbance does it take to cause a problem. Damn = little - like a little cap leak, or partially plugged vent, or whatever. = And the float valve is right there at the top of the sump, so if the = sump drains down a little, no matter how temporary, the light goes on. = Does this blinking light issue come up more frequently on Velocitys with = IO540 engines that are using fuel at a higher rate? So one obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank = is that without the sump vent we don't have to rely on that very small = gravity head for fuel feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to = assist if needed. (of course if the fuel is very warm and the vapor = pressure gets high there won't be much suction ability either, but that = is not likely an issue). Now don't let these low pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did = some flow tests a couple of years ago with a 3/8" vinyl tube where I = could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a couple of things. = One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, even with only a = few inches of head, was "pretty fast". I didn't measure what that meant = in gph, but I'm going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph just = fine. And experience bears that out. Surely someone has measured the = gravity flow from the tanks, right? What is it? The second thing was that air bubbles, for the most part, didn't seem = to be an issue. With very low flow they would migrate up stream, but it = didn't take much flow for them to easily get carried with the flow and = into the container. These bubbles varied from very small to maybe an = inch or so long in the tube. =20 I say 'for the most part' because there was one thing that caught my = attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air = in the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, = the fuel was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of = the tube. It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel. = Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface. = I don't know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to the sump = is an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely to be = submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the strake, = and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air. = It may take a little while for the air to resolve where it's going; = upstream or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump = it will hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when = we open the purge valve. I can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its = way back to the strake; but, don't forget, that won't happen until the = air builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the = stake tank - at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or = blinking. =20 So the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity = feed in an airplane where the design doesn't give us much of a gravity = head (pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus - simplicity. We can = always do as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the = fuel from the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel = caps, and maybe valving off the sump vent. One further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where = fuel is bypassed back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may = need to vent the sump to avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions = that form as a result of the sudden expansion coming out of the pressure = regulator. Maybe they will re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from = valving off the sump vent. Sorry to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message = got posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a = copy of what I post. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C353D6.06607F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,

Good post, with some good thought = behind it. =20 When I built my sump tank (for a fixed-gear XL) I placed the fuel inlets = at the=20 extreme top corner of the tank, so I don't think I would have any = significant=20 volume of trapped air even if the vent line were eliminated = completely. =20 Since the vent line is already installed, I plan to leave it in the = system=20 with a valve to shut it off. Then I'll have the option to use it = if my=20 theories all turn out to be bogus! I'll be a little surprised if I = have to=20 exercise the "burp" valve to release trapped air, = though.

Keith

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 alventures=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 = 9:29=20 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and = vent=20 sytem

This has been an = interesting=20 discussion, and a lot of it focused on the vent system. Someone=20 questioned the validity of the fuel system design. I think there = is an=20 element of the design which is an inherent weakness, and which is at = the root=20 of these observed problems.

Consider that the = bottom of our=20 fuel tank is about at the bottom of the spar. The top of the = sump tank=20 is just below the spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple = inches=20 below that. Now note that a 1=94 head of fuel is only about 0.03 = psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our tanks are = full we=20 have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the fuel to the sump when the = sump is=20 full. When the strake is nearly empty, that pressure is about = 0.05 psi.=20 This increases just slightly as the sump drains down to expose = the inlet=20 from the strake, but that=92s as high as it=92s going to get no matter = how far the=20 sump drains =96 the head that drives the fuel can only go as far the = exit at the=20 sump.

So how much of a = disturbance=20 does it take to cause a problem. Damn little =96 like a little = cap leak,=20 or partially plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is = right=20 there at the top of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no = matter=20 how temporary, the light goes on. Does this blinking light issue = come up=20 more frequently on Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at = a=20 higher rate?

So = one=20 obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is that = without=20 the sump vent we don=92t have to rely on that very small gravity head = for fuel=20 feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to assist if=20 needed. (of course if the fuel is very = warm and=20 the vapor pressure gets high there won=92t be much suction ability = either, but=20 that is not likely an issue).

Now don=92t let these = low pressure=20 head numbers scare you too bad. I did some flow tests a couple of years ago with a = 3/8=94 vinyl=20 tube where I could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a = couple of=20 things. One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, = even with=20 only a few inches of head, was =93pretty fast=94. I didn=92t measure = what that meant=20 in gph, but I=92m going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph = just=20 fine. And experience bears that out. Surely someone has = measured=20 the gravity flow from the tanks, right? What is=20 it?

The = second thing=20 was that air bubbles, for the = most=20 part, didn=92t seem to be an issue. With very low = flow they=20 would migrate up stream, but it didn=92t take much flow for them to = easily get=20 carried with the flow and into the container. These bubbles = varied from=20 very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube. =

I say = =91for the=20 most part=92 because there was one thing that caught my = attention. With=20 the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air in the tube, = adding fuel=20 to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the fuel was very = reluctant to=20 flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube. It took a bit = of head=20 to get that air to bubble into fuel. Apparently has to do with = the=20 surface tension at the air-fuel interface. I don=92t know if = this is an=20 issue or not, but the entrance to the sump is an end of a tube (though = a=20 different geometry) and it is likely to be submerged. And one = can=20 envision that with low fuel level in the strake, and we do a little = nose down=20 for awhile, the line could fill with air. It may take a little = while for=20 the air to resolve where it=92s going; upstream or into the sump = tank. And=20 of course, with no vent in the sump it will hang around at the top of = the tank=20 until the next preflight when we open the purge = valve.

I can = believe that=20 air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way back to the = strake;=20 but, don=92t forget, that won=92t happen until the air builds in the = top of the=20 sump down to the level of the tube from the stake tank =96 at which = point the=20 low fuel light will probably be on or blinking. =

So the = inherent=20 weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in an = airplane where=20 the design doesn=92t give us much of a gravity head (pressure). = Gravity=20 feed is also a plus =96 simplicity. We can always do as Jean = suggested,=20 and all the low-wing planes do; pump the fuel from the strakes. = Or we=20 can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, and maybe valving off = the sump=20 vent.

One = further note=20 for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is bypassed = back from=20 the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the sump to = avoid the=20 buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of the = sudden=20 expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they will=20 re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump=20 vent.

Sorry to = ramble=20 on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got posted, = because=20 some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of what I=20 post.

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C353D6.06607F80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 08:47:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (jack) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 02:47:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:retractable gear -mechanical stop to limit up travel Message-ID: <007401c35413$5afdcc40$c4a5fea9@s0026388084> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C353E9.712D85C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recall seeing pictures somewhere showing a mechanical stop, to stop = the tire from raising to high in the well. I cannot locate any reference to any stops in the manual. I understand that if properly set up ,this should not be an issue ,but = in any case wonder what others have done, and if they have installed a = stop, where did you install it? Thanks=20 Jack std rg elite ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C353E9.712D85C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I recall seeing pictures somewhere = showing a=20 mechanical stop, to stop the tire from raising to high in the = well.

I cannot locate any reference to any = stops in the=20 manual.

I understand that if properly set up = ,this should=20 not be an issue ,but in any case wonder what others have done, and if = they have=20 installed a stop, where did you install it?

          &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20 Thanks

          &nbs= p;            = ;            =          Jack =20 std rg elite

------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C353E9.712D85C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 09:58:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 04:58:25 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <002001c3541d$4216a170$0300a8c0@DAD> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C353FB.B6185310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Something you just said in your previous post has me concerned. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "I want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system." John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D a) If your vent system is pulling a little vacuum, then you are = "unpressurizing" the fuel tanks - which slows the fuel flow from the = main tanks to the header tank. The fuel vent line should be installed = so that it introduces pressure into the fuel tanks. The construction = manual clearly shows the vent line pointing into the wind. b) What tank overflow line? The Velocity schematic does not feature a = "tank overflow line" (other than the vent line itself). It sounds like = your system has more tubes - which may be just fine - however it is = different from what is shown in the construction manual. Short story - For a few years I owned a business to help composite = aircraft owners build their aircraft. While I was working on the fuel = system for a Velocity customer I had the "brainstorm" to redesign the = fuel and vent system for a XL which would allow for a fuel selector = valve. I consulted with Duane Swing at the factory - who was kind = enough to review the facsimiles that I sent which outlined my new and = improved fuel system. Duane patiently pointed out some possible = pitfalls to the design. He offered a stern warning to be very careful = when changing something like this (meaning - the fuel system needs to be = 100% reliable if the engine is going to stay running - if you're going = to screw around (i.e.. alter the schematic or the installation) you need = to be pretty sure of what you are doing - and to think through every = possible situation that the change might affect. I went ahead with my = improved fuel line/vent system - and later - when mimicking a ground = fuel flow test to see if the system would deliver 25 gph (take off = power) - I found that the fuel lines had too many curves and had too = long a run to sustain this flow rate - which would have meant a partial = loss of power about 2-minutes following takeoff. What a sobering = discovery! Following this I removed the "new and improved" plumbing and = reinstalled the system that was "in the book" - and the aircraft is = operating without problem. What I'm leading to is this - it looks like someone has changed your = fuel system. If you have more than one vent line sticking out under the = aircraft, then it is different from the Velocity schematic. Someone = obviously felt a need to "improve" the fuel/vent system - what we don't = know is this really an improvement - or is it the source of your problem = (as in my true story above)? As to your question as to why the low sump fuel light might come on in = aircraft with the Velocity fuel schematic - in an earlier post I offered = an opinion that the float switch might be culprit - causing a false = signal. Have you had a chance to remove the float switch in order to = test it? Is the float buoyant in avgas? Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "John Dibble" To: Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:42 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > Wayne, Scott, >=20 > Methinks thou doest protest too much. > I for one, do not consider a low fuel light being on for several hours = of flight to be a > mute point and I much appreciate the discussion and comments from = others here. That's > great that you trust the fuel schematic with your lives, but that's = not a good enough > reason for me to trust it. I would be more comfortable with a = technical explanation as > to why you think it's a good schematic and what is causing the fuel = light to come on. >=20 > John ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C353FB.B6185310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

Something you just said in your = previous post has=20 me concerned.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

"I want to clarify something. = Previously I=20 said my tank vent faced
forward, but it is the tank overflow line and = not the=20 vent that faces
forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the
rear and should pull a = little=20 vacuum on the vent=20 system."
John
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

a) If your vent system is pulling = a little=20 vacuum, then you are "unpressurizing" the fuel tanks - which slows the = fuel flow=20 from the main tanks to the header tank. The fuel vent line = should be=20 installed so that it introduces pressure into the fuel tanks. = The=20 construction manual clearly shows the vent line pointing into the=20 wind.

b) What tank overflow line? = The Velocity=20 schematic does not feature a "tank overflow line" (other than the vent = line=20 itself). It sounds like your system has more tubes - which may be = just=20 fine - however it is different from what is shown in the = construction=20 manual.

Short story - For a few years I owned a = business to=20 help composite aircraft owners build their aircraft. While I was = working=20 on the fuel system for a Velocity customer I had the "brainstorm" to = redesign=20 the fuel and vent system for a XL which would allow for a fuel selector=20 valve. I consulted with Duane Swing at the factory - who was kind = enough=20 to review the facsimiles that I sent which outlined my new and improved = fuel=20 system. Duane patiently pointed out some possible pitfalls to the=20 design. He offered a stern warning to be very careful = when=20 changing something like this (meaning - the fuel system needs to be 100% = reliable if the engine is going to stay running - if you're going to = screw=20 around (i.e.. alter the schematic or the installation) you need to = be=20 pretty sure of what you are doing - and to think through every = possible=20 situation that the change might affect. I went ahead with my = improved=20 fuel line/vent system - and later - when mimicking a ground fuel flow=20 test to see if the system would deliver 25 gph (take off power) - I = found=20 that the fuel lines had too many curves and had too long a run to = sustain this=20 flow rate - which would have meant a partial loss of power about = 2-minutes=20 following takeoff. What a sobering discovery! Following this = I=20 removed the "new and improved" plumbing and reinstalled the system = that was=20 "in the book" - and the aircraft is operating without = problem.

What I'm leading to is this - it looks = like someone=20 has changed your fuel system. If you have more than one vent line = sticking=20 out under the aircraft, then it is different from the Velocity = schematic. =20 Someone obviously felt a need to "improve" the fuel/vent system - what = we don't=20 know is this really an improvement - or is it the source of your problem = (as=20 in my true story above)?

As to your question as to why the low = sump fuel=20 light might come on in aircraft with the Velocity fuel schematic - in an = earlier=20 post I offered an opinion that the float switch might be culprit - = causing a=20 false signal. Have you had a chance to remove the float switch in = order to=20 test it? Is the float buoyant in avgas?

Best regards,

Scott B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dibble" <aminetech@dixie-net.com>

To: <reflector@tvbf.org>

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:42 = AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel=20 light

> Wayne, Scott,
>
> Methinks thou doest protest = too=20 much.
> I for one, do not consider a low fuel light being on for = several=20 hours of flight to be a
> mute point and I much appreciate the = discussion=20 and comments from others here. That's
> great that you trust the = fuel=20 schematic with your lives, but that's not a good enough
> reason = for me to=20 trust it. I would be more comfortable with a technical explanation = as
> to why you think it's a good schematic and what is causing = the fuel=20 light to come on.
>
> John
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C353FB.B6185310-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 10:36:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Baker) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 05:36:29 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <3F233A0B.4D9DA6E5@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <003401c35422$90a94720$0300a8c0@DAD> I can't resist telling another story relating to "improved" Velocity fuel systems. Some of you remember Mark Machado and respect his knowledge of engineering and familiarity with building Velocity aircraft. One day Mark thought it would be a good idea to disconnect the sump vent from the manifold (capping the empty hole in the manifold) and run a new vent line from the sump to the outside. He also installed a check valve in the sump vent line that would allow air to purge itself from the sump tank - but not allow air to feed back in. The idea was to have the draw of fuel from the engine fuel pump to help "pull" fuel down from the strake tanks. He and I took off to test the system - after a while I noticed that our fuel "burn" was about 4x what it should be - so we decided to land. As we taxied up to the shop one of the workers was waiving his arms wildly - giving us the "cut the engine" signal. When we got out of the aircraft we saw fuel pouring from the vent line (this is with the engine shut down!). You guessed it ...the improved fuel system was siphoning fuel like no tomorrow (those who have emptied an aquarium tank know what I'm talking about). The point of the story is this ... Mark and I thought of ourselves as "educated" people - people who think things through and who are careful about making changes. In this instance the "improved" fuel vent system not only turned out to be a bad design, but so bad that it could have easily led to fuel exhaustion or worse yet, a fire. Scott B. From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 12:42:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mark Means) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:42:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F22D42C.3F5CFAA9@dixie-net.com> <000d01c353c9$f4dc0e20$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> <3F233A0B.4D9DA6E5@dixie-net.com> <3F2371B9.7F11978A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <002501c35434$2263bc20$41c46cd8@net> The obvious solution to this ongoing dilemma (there have been literally hundreds of reflector messages over the years about this) is for Velocity to stop supplying low fuel sensors at all and for us to revert back to normal fuel management such as most of us learned while training in a spam can - the vast majority of which have no low fuel warning whatsoever! Mark Means ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Black" To: Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 2:31 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > John, > > > I want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced > > forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces > > forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the > > rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system. > > Isn't this backwards? > > But the bottom line is "How well does it work?" > > Dave Black > Shortwing RG > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 13:15:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 08:15:23 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: <6c.300f4143.2c551c5b@aol.com> --part1_6c.300f4143.2c551c5b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do not agree with the solution that has Velocity stop installing low fuel warning systems. Mine does well, I know how to interpret it, and I do want to know when (if ever) the fuel level in the sump goes below the switch. I would like for Velocity to offer a fire warning system also. Bob Wood --part1_6c.300f4143.2c551c5b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do not agree with the solution that has Velocity sto= p installing low fuel warning systems. Mine does well, I know how to interpr= et it, and I do want to know when (if ever) the fuel level in the sump goes=20= below the switch. I would like for Velocity to offer a fire warning system a= lso.

Bob Wood --part1_6c.300f4143.2c551c5b_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 15:09:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:09:39 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks Message-ID: <00d701c35448$b804b2c0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C35427.308FE420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to the = Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members. He is = not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. As = you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have gotten = it otherwise. So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input we can = get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even bad = ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!! See you at Oshkosh! Ronnie=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: (omitted at author's request) Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is used? And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon tube to = the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, put soap = suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to do it. =20 I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 minutes while = in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the same thing). My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it always says = the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent lines, sloping = upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom with the slash cut = toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in the vent and tank = system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole lot of fuel head = that we are working with. =20 I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, but a = few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these loose. = The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which will help = avoid this situation. I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the reflector. = Folks should know about the leak checker available at their local Toyota = dealer. See ya Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To: romott@adelphia.net=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Testing fuel tanks Hi Ronnie, Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel tanks. = Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing = evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that = can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi = pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the = tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to = find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated = 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test = from an access port at the engine area and found that the system would = hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then = reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel pressure = sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm of = 761mmHg. That would have been hard to find without the smoke. Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a six-pack abd = get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home. ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C35427.308FE420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit = writing to=20 the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our=20 members.  He is not the only one that lurks and doesn't write = for this=20 very reason. As you can see, here's some great information but you = wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

So watch your manners and etiquette! We need = all of the=20 input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can = be! =20 Even bad ideas spark great discussions and information=20 exchange!!!!!

See you at Oshkosh!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ronnie = Brown=20

To: (omitted at author's request)

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM

Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks

That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind = of smoke=20 is used?

And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just = hooked a 3/8"=20 nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into = the=20 tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 = minutes=20 to do it.

I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels = every 30=20 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the = same=20 thing).

My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in = it and it=20 always says the header tank is full. As it should be with = 3/8" vent=20 lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom = with the=20 slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in the vent = and tank=20 system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole lot of fuel = head that=20 we are working with.

I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede = liquid=20 flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break = these=20 loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, = which will=20 help avoid this situation.

I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to = the=20 reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available at = their=20 local Toyota dealer.

See ya

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST
To: romott@adelphia.net
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 = 8:08=20 PM

Subject: Testing fuel = tanks

Hi Ronnie,

Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel = tanks.=20 Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing = evaporative=20 fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that can be = calibrated=20 to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi pressure. On = top of=20 that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the tank to make any = leak=20 readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to find a fuel filler = cap that=20 would seal in one direction but when rotated 180 deg, would allow = pressure to=20 escape. I had performed a pressure test from an access port at the = engine area=20 and found that the system would hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap = to=20 release the pressure and then reinstalled the cap. I road tested the = car=20 monitoring the fuel pressure sensor and found that the tank would not = build=20 pressure beyond atm of 761mmHg.

That would have been hard to find without the smoke.

Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a = six-pack abd=20 get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home.

------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C35427.308FE420-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 15:54:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:54:23 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:GAMInjectors Message-ID: Soctt, If you have instrumentation for temp readout of each cylinder (mine is VM-1000) you really ought to do the "lean test" shown in GAMI's web site: http://www.gami.com/frames.htm. Even with an autopilot, you really should have a second person along to look-see while you have your head buried in the panel. Just start ROP, reduce fuel flow 0.2 to 0.4 each set of EGT and CHT readings across the cylinder. GAMI has a printable spreadsheet for this on their site. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I was pretty surprised how pathetic my spread was at 2.1 gph, when a good spread is 0.5 or less. If you're already running smooth LOP, my guess is your spread is markedly less. I know when I tried LOP operations, I'd get that "rough" feeling. It wasn't blatant, in that you couldn't see it in any instrument, but is was a "feel". The only problem I had was when installing the injectors (and thank you Jean, for excellent pop-off access holes through the cooling plenum), the fuel connection threads on the injector for #1 cylinder stripped. I haven't figured out why because there was easy access and I'm 99.9% sure it wasn't cross-threaded but just as it started to snug up, it went slack again. Inspecting the injector threads, the tops of the threads were pretty well gone. I reinstalled the original in #1 and it went back in just fine, including the fuel line fitting. All the other injectors installed without glitch. So, I'm mystified as to what happened but its a sick feeling. I'll post what GAMI does about it (see if they will help correct what must have been my mistake). I'm intending to get a couple good set of readings from my OSH trip and will post them back to GAMI. Based on those readings, they may fine tune the injectors by changing out one or more (no cost except shipping during first year) to get to the best balance. I looks like they must have 5 or 6 different size injectors. In sum, I started out pretty skeptical but am coming around to believing they may actually be on to something. But, I've been fooled before...often as a matter of fact! Full disclosure: I have no interest or relationship with GAMI and have never done anything with them other than to enrich their treasury. I understand there is another company out there doing something of the same ilk, though I don't have a name. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 11:15 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Chuck, Let us know how the Gami's work out. I'm lucky that my IO360 will run 50 to 75 LOP now that I have the EI installed. I wonder how much better things would be if I caughed up the dough for a set of Gami's. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > Brett, > > I suspect the point is, why did the air get into the sump or how logical > is it that air is actually in the sump or, if that is not logical, then > it does point to a faulty instrument. An investigation tree might look > like: > > Air in sump: > 1. From the either tank? > No, both tanks were full and fuel outlets were always > covered > 2. From the vent line? > No, the sump vent line is open and there is no source > for the line to be pressurized to blow air into sump > 3. Did the sump become starved for fuel from the tanks and pull > air in through the vent? > No, flow paths open and if it was that starved, the > engine would have stopped. > 4. Was air in the sump all the time and just hadn't been vented off > No, the vent to the sump was always open and air should > have been displaced by gravity flow of fuel. > 5. Do we know for sure that there is air in the sump? > No, we only infer that because we are getting the low > fuel signal. > 6. Is it logical that air is actually in the sump? > No, not if it is vented off and there is not pathway or > mechanism for air getting into the sump > 7. If air in the sump is not the problem, then what is? > Then, it would seem to be a faulty instrument (float > only semi-buoyant) or a faulty signal. > > and so on. Of course, if any of the answers in the question-path are > wrong or different than we think, then that limb breaks off the tree. > > I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence because this is pretty > simple stuff. I've found difficult problems can be simple to solve with > a structured approach and simple problems can be difficult to solve with > a shotgun approach. I've used both! > > With that said, I'm still working on the unbalanced tank draw-down > problem. I have a long trip scheduled next week, so I'll be able to > test the theory that I'm unbalanced (which comes as no surprise to a lot > of people) and that I need to shim the rudder slightly. > > I just installed a new set of GAMInjectors this morning so I'm looking > to get some good "lean test" numbers to see if the balance has > improved. I was confident that my engine was "pretty good" in that area > because it does run smooth. NOT. There was 2.1 gph difference between > peak EGT across my cylinders as I leaned out. 1.0 gph is OK, 0.7 is > acceptable and and <0.5 is an excellent target. That's probably why the > 540 started to run rough in the LOP region. In sum, mine numbers were > kind of pathetic side. > > The single gph or two that are saved will probably never recover the > cost of the injectors but if running cooler and smoother increases TBO a > hundred or two hours, now we're talking real money. And, like many > things, it feels good for it to be right! > > Gotta go. Have some OSH flight planning to do. > > Chuck > > > > min@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:06 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Why would you jump to the assumption it's air in the tank? Without > a sightglass, or replacing that run of tubing to the sump neoprene > or something, we don't have any idea what's causing the indication. > Could just as easily be a defect inside the instrument. My whole > contention was that, if air is entering the sump, it's probably for > the best b/c the alternative is most likely to pull a vacuum on the > tank. Air doesn't displace fuel without a reason. > > Brett > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: alventures > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:56 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > Al, > > > > This thread started with Rene's problem with occasional low-fuel > warning with plenty of fuel on board. How is the air getting > into the sump tank if the strake tanks have enough fuel to keep > the strake-to-sump fuel lines submerged? The sump vent seems > the most likely route. > > > > Keith > > > > Yes, I agree with that; assuming of, course, that the > intermittent warning is due to a low level in the sump tank > and not a problem with the float switch, or something else. > > > > After giving the issue more thought, the valve in the sump > vent seems to make sense. Although it is one more thing on > the checklist, and not convenient to get at. And it doesn't > preclude fuel exhaustion in the case of a leaky fuel cap. > If we are going to keep a simple gravity feed system from > both tanks, we have to pay attention to the fuel caps, and > be aware of one tank level dropping faster than the other. > > > > Let's see; if we could just find a different place to put > the fuel cap; someplace that doesn't happen to see about the > maximum negative pressure of anywhere on the airplane. > > > > Al > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 15:31:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 09:31:17 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks In-Reply-To: <00d701c35448$b804b2c0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_yRfEXGUs3qyOoWPIRxE0Xw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is he "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on occasion? Doesn't make sense to me personally- I appreciate his input (through you) and actually might go borrow one of those devices, so good for you for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take his ball and go home when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- that was just a joke) as always, ALL input is appreciated. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members. He is not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. As you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even bad ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!! See you at Oshkosh! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: (omitted at author's request) Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is used? And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to do it. I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the same thing). My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it always says the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in the vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole lot of fuel head that we are working with. I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which will help avoid this situation. I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available at their local Toyota dealer. See ya Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To: romott@adelphia.net Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Testing fuel tanks Hi Ronnie, Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test from an access port at the engine area and found that the system would hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel pressure sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm of 761mmHg. That would have been hard to find without the smoke. Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a six-pack abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home. --Boundary_(ID_yRfEXGUs3qyOoWPIRxE0Xw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is he "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on occasion? Doesn't make sense to me personally- I appreciate his input (through you) and actually might go borrow one of those devices, so good for you for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take his ball and go home when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- that was just a joke) as always, ALL input is appreciated.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks

I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members.  He is not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. As you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even bad ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!!

See you at Oshkosh!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From: Ronnie Brown

To: (omitted at author's request)

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM

Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks

That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is used?

And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to do it.

I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the same thing).

My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it always says the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in the vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole lot of fuel head that we are working with.

I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which will help avoid this situation.

I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available at their local Toyota dealer.

See ya

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST

To: romott@adelphia.net

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM

Subject: Testing fuel tanks

Hi Ronnie,

Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test from an access port at the engine area and found that the system would hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel pressure sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm of 761mmHg.

That would have been hard to find without the smoke.

Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a six-pack abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home.

--Boundary_(ID_yRfEXGUs3qyOoWPIRxE0Xw)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 16:37:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:37:23 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent system Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35454.F9C92870 Content-Type: text/plain You da man, Al, you da man. Real numbers instead of anecdotal information. Good stuff. Particularly interesting was your observation of the air bubble in the fuel line that wouldn't go up and the down flowing fuel had a difficult time pushing it back into the sump. And, this was under what I assume was ideal conditions, in that the fuel line ran pretty much straight up from the sump to strake; no humps and dips. Any hump/dip is virtually assured of causing an air lock (anecdotal speculation), blocking/slowing fuel flow. To those who are satisfied with to having to wiggle your wings occasionally, ignore low-level warning lights, only do limited descents (then having to reload your sump), flying around with who-knows-how-many gallons of unusable fuel, having to remember to manually burp and vent the sump and so on ad nauseum, I say NOT! We all have quirks of one sort or another in our planes, but that doesn't mean we should accept them, as they are neither dear or beloved. In some cases, they are innocuous, in others, dangerous and potentially deadly. They need to be fixed, not tolerated. The fuel flow discussion is headed in that direction even though we don't seem to be getting there very fast. Scott B., your example of the siphoning fuel flow through the sump (header) vent was illustrative, but easily avoidable. By interconnecting the vent lines from both tanks and the sump to a common manifold, then venting that manifold, you can not establish a siphoning effect because all of three system components are under the exact same pressure, beit negative or positive. Even if the single vent line pointed backward, the vacuum created would have to overcome the 1' of head from the tank to the sump to impede flow. If it pointed forward, it would slightly pressurize all three tanks, thus having no effect. If one of the caps is leaking air, no big deal because the air pressure is the same in both mains since they are interconnected. By making the atmosphere common to all three tanks, this issue of negative/positive pressure goes away and we rely on gravity to do it's job, which it does with admirable consistency. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of alventures Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:29 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent sytem This has been an interesting discussion, and a lot of it focused on the vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the fuel system design. I think there is an element of the design which is an inherent weakness, and which is at the root of these observed problems. Consider that the bottom of our fuel tank is about at the bottom of the spar. The top of the sump tank is just below the spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple inches below that. Now note that a 1" head of fuel is only about 0.03 psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our tanks are full we have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the fuel to the sump when the sump is full. When the strake is nearly empty, that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as the sump drains down to expose the inlet from the strake, but that's as high as it's going to get no matter how far the sump drains - the head that drives the fuel can only go as far the exit at the sump. So how much of a disturbance does it take to cause a problem. Damn little - like a little cap leak, or partially plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is right there at the top of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no matter how temporary, the light goes on. Does this blinking light issue come up more frequently on Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at a higher rate? So one obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is that without the sump vent we don't have to rely on that very small gravity head for fuel feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to assist if needed. (of course if the fuel is very warm and the vapor pressure gets high there won't be much suction ability either, but that is not likely an issue). Now don't let these low pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did some flow tests a couple of years ago with a 3/8" vinyl tube where I could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a couple of things. One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, even with only a few inches of head, was "pretty fast". I didn't measure what that meant in gph, but I'm going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph just fine. And experience bears that out. Surely someone has measured the gravity flow from the tanks, right? What is it? The second thing was that air bubbles, for the most part, didn't seem to be an issue. With very low flow they would migrate up stream, but it didn't take much flow for them to easily get carried with the flow and into the container. These bubbles varied from very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube. I say 'for the most part' because there was one thing that caught my attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air in the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the fuel was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube. It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel. Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface. I don't know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to the sump is an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely to be submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the strake, and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air. It may take a little while for the air to resolve where it's going; upstream or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump it will hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when we open the purge valve. I can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way back to the strake; but, don't forget, that won't happen until the air builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the stake tank - at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or blinking. So the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in an airplane where the design doesn't give us much of a gravity head (pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus - simplicity. We can always do as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the fuel from the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, and maybe valving off the sump vent. One further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is bypassed back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the sump to avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of the sudden expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they will re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump vent. Sorry to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of what I post. Al ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35454.F9C92870 Content-Type: text/html
You da man, Al, you da man. Real numbers instead of anecdotal information. Good stuff.

Particularly interesting was your observation of the air bubble in the fuel line that wouldn't go up and the down flowing fuel had a difficult time pushing it back into the sump. And, this was under what I assume was ideal conditions, in that the fuel line ran pretty much straight up from the sump to strake; no humps and dips. Any hump/dip is virtually assured of causing an air lock (anecdotal speculation), blocking/slowing fuel flow.

To those who are satisfied with to having to wiggle your wings occasionally, ignore low-level warning lights, only do limited descents (then having to reload your sump), flying around with who-knows-how-many gallons of unusable fuel, having to remember to manually burp and vent the sump and so on ad nauseum, I say NOT!

We all have quirks of one sort or another in our planes, but that doesn't mean we should accept them, as they are neither dear or beloved. In some cases, they are innocuous, in others, dangerous and potentially deadly. They need to be fixed, not tolerated. The fuel flow discussion is headed in that direction even though we don't seem to be getting there very fast.

Scott B., your example of the siphoning fuel flow through the sump (header) vent was illustrative, but easily avoidable. By interconnecting the vent lines from both tanks and the sump to a common manifold, then venting that manifold, you can not establish a siphoning effect because all of three system components are under the exact same pressure, beit negative or positive.

Even if the single vent line pointed backward, the vacuum created would have to overcome the 1' of head from the tank to the sump to impede flow. If it pointed forward, it would slightly pressurize all three tanks, thus having no effect. If one of the caps is leaking air, no big deal because the air pressure is the same in both mains since they are interconnected. By making the atmosphere common to all three tanks, this issue of negative/positive pressure goes away and we rely on gravity to do it's job, which it does with admirable consistency.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of alventures
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:29 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent sytem

This has been an interesting discussion, and a lot of it focused on the vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the fuel system design. I think there is an element of the design which is an inherent weakness, and which is at the root of these observed problems.

Consider that the bottom of our fuel tank is about at the bottom of the spar. The top of the sump tank is just below the spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple inches below that. Now note that a 1” head of fuel is only about 0.03 psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our tanks are full we have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the fuel to the sump when the sump is full. When the strake is nearly empty, that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as the sump drains down to expose the inlet from the strake, but that’s as high as it’s going to get no matter how far the sump drains – the head that drives the fuel can only go as far the exit at the sump.

So how much of a disturbance does it take to cause a problem. Damn little – like a little cap leak, or partially plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is right there at the top of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no matter how temporary, the light goes on. Does this blinking light issue come up more frequently on Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at a higher rate?

So one obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is that without the sump vent we don’t have to rely on that very small gravity head for fuel feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to assist if needed. (of course if the fuel is very warm and the vapor pressure gets high there won’t be much suction ability either, but that is not likely an issue).

Now don’t let these low pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did some flow tests a couple of years ago with a 3/8” vinyl tube where I could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a couple of things. One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, even with only a few inches of head, was “pretty fast”. I didn’t measure what that meant in gph, but I’m going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph just fine. And experience bears that out. Surely someone has measured the gravity flow from the tanks, right? What is it?

The second thing was that air bubbles, for the most part, didn’t seem to be an issue. With very low flow they would migrate up stream, but it didn’t take much flow for them to easily get carried with the flow and into the container. These bubbles varied from very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube.

I say ‘for the most part’ because there was one thing that caught my attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air in the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the fuel was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube. It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel. Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface. I don’t know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to the sump is an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely to be submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the strake, and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air. It may take a little while for the air to resolve where it’s going; upstream or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump it will hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when we open the purge valve.

I can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way back to the strake; but, don’t forget, that won’t happen until the air builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the stake tank – at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or blinking.

So the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in an airplane where the design doesn’t give us much of a gravity head (pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus – simplicity. We can always do as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the fuel from the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, and maybe valving off the sump vent.

One further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is bypassed back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the sump to avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of the sudden expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they will re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump vent.

Sorry to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of what I post.

Al

------_=_NextPart_001_01C35454.F9C92870-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 18:01:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:01:09 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c35460$ad633720$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C35426.01045F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Particularly interesting was your observation of the air bubble in the fuel line that wouldn't go up and the down flowing fuel had a difficult time pushing it back into the sump. And, this was under what I assume was ideal conditions, in that the fuel line ran pretty much straight up from the sump to strake; no humps and dips. Any hump/dip is virtually assured of causing an air lock (anecdotal speculation), blocking/slowing fuel flow. Chuck; In the qualitative flow tests I did I roughly simulated the line from the strake to the sump, i.e., relatively horizontal and varying the head difference over about the range from full to empty strake. I think in a vertical tube the air would very quickly go one way or the other. Even when I put a dip in the line the smaller bubbles cleared quickly. In the actual case where you are feeding from both tanks (as Keith has pointed out) the bubble would go back to the strake tank because the flow resisted from one line would be compensated by the other. I suppose you could get a large bubble in both lines at the same time that way take a little while to resolve, but it is hard to imagine a perfectly stable balanced condition lasting very long, meaning like 10 -15 seconds. The sump tank does provide a nice reserve. Al To those who are satisfied with to having to wiggle your wings occasionally, ignore low-level warning lights, only do limited descents (then having to reload your sump), flying around with who-knows-how-many gallons of unusable fuel, having to remember to manually burp and vent the sump and so on ad nauseum, I say NOT! We all have quirks of one sort or another in our planes, but that doesn't mean we should accept them, as they are neither dear or beloved. In some cases, they are innocuous, in others, dangerous and potentially deadly. They need to be fixed, not tolerated. The fuel flow discussion is headed in that direction even though we don't seem to be getting there very fast. Scott B., your example of the siphoning fuel flow through the sump (header) vent was illustrative, but easily avoidable. By interconnecting the vent lines from both tanks and the sump to a common manifold, then venting that manifold, you can not establish a siphoning effect because all of three system components are under the exact same pressure, beit negative or positive. Even if the single vent line pointed backward, the vacuum created would have to overcome the 1' of head from the tank to the sump to impede flow. If it pointed forward, it would slightly pressurize all three tanks, thus having no effect. If one of the caps is leaking air, no big deal because the air pressure is the same in both mains since they are interconnected. By making the atmosphere common to all three tanks, this issue of negative/positive pressure goes away and we rely on gravity to do it's job, which it does with admirable consistency. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of alventures Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:29 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent sytem This has been an interesting discussion, and a lot of it focused on the vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the fuel system design. I think there is an element of the design which is an inherent weakness, and which is at the root of these observed problems. Consider that the bottom of our fuel tank is about at the bottom of the spar. The top of the sump tank is just below the spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple inches below that. Now note that a 1" head of fuel is only about 0.03 psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our tanks are full we have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the fuel to the sump when the sump is full. When the strake is nearly empty, that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as the sump drains down to expose the inlet from the strake, but that's as high as it's going to get no matter how far the sump drains - the head that drives the fuel can only go as far the exit at the sump. So how much of a disturbance does it take to cause a problem. Damn little - like a little cap leak, or partially plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is right there at the top of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no matter how temporary, the light goes on. Does this blinking light issue come up more frequently on Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at a higher rate? So one obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is that without the sump vent we don't have to rely on that very small gravity head for fuel feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to assist if needed. (of course if the fuel is very warm and the vapor pressure gets high there won't be much suction ability either, but that is not likely an issue). Now don't let these low pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did some flow tests a couple of years ago with a 3/8" vinyl tube where I could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a couple of things. One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, even with only a few inches of head, was "pretty fast". I didn't measure what that meant in gph, but I'm going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph just fine. And experience bears that out. Surely someone has measured the gravity flow from the tanks, right? What is it? The second thing was that air bubbles, for the most part, didn't seem to be an issue. With very low flow they would migrate up stream, but it didn't take much flow for them to easily get carried with the flow and into the container. These bubbles varied from very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube. I say 'for the most part' because there was one thing that caught my attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air in the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the fuel was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube. It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel. Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface. I don't know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to the sump is an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely to be submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the strake, and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air. It may take a little while for the air to resolve where it's going; upstream or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump it will hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when we open the purge valve. I can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way back to the strake; but, don't forget, that won't happen until the air builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the stake tank - at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or blinking. So the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in an airplane where the design doesn't give us much of a gravity head (pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus - simplicity. We can always do as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the fuel from the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, and maybe valving off the sump vent. One further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is bypassed back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the sump to avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of the sudden expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they will re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump vent. Sorry to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of what I post. Al ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C35426.01045F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Particularly = interesting was your observation of the air bubble in the fuel line that wouldn't go = up and the down flowing fuel had a difficult time pushing it back into the = sump. And, this was under what I assume was ideal conditions, in that the fuel = line ran pretty much straight up from the sump to strake; no humps and = dips. Any hump/dip is virtually assured of causing an air lock (anecdotal = speculation), blocking/slowing fuel flow.

Chuck;

In the qualitative flow tests I = did I roughly simulated the line from the strake to the sump, i.e., relatively horizontal and varying the head difference over about the range from = full to empty strake. I think in a vertical tube the air would very = quickly go one way or the other. Even when I put a dip in the line the = smaller bubbles cleared quickly.

In the actual case where = you are feeding from both tanks (as Keith has pointed out) the bubble would go = back to the strake tank because the flow resisted from one line would be = compensated by the other. I suppose you could get a large bubble in both lines at = the same time that way take a little while to resolve, but it is hard to = imagine a perfectly stable balanced condition lasting very long, meaning like 10 = -15 seconds. The sump tank does provide a nice = reserve.

Al

To those who are satisfied with to having to wiggle your wings occasionally, ignore low-level warning lights, only do limited descents (then = having to reload your sump), flying around with who-knows-how-many gallons of = unusable fuel, having to remember to manually burp and vent the sump and so on ad nauseum, I say NOT!

We all have = quirks of one sort or another in our planes, but that doesn't mean we should accept = them, as they are neither dear or beloved. In some cases, they are = innocuous, in others, dangerous and potentially deadly. They need to be = fixed, not tolerated. The fuel flow discussion is headed in that direction = even though we don't seem to be getting there very fast.

Scott B., your = example of the siphoning fuel flow through the sump (header) vent was illustrative, = but easily avoidable. By interconnecting the vent lines from both = tanks and the sump to a common manifold, then venting that manifold, you can not establish a siphoning effect because all of three system components are = under the exact same pressure, beit negative or positive. =

Even if the = single vent line pointed backward, the vacuum created would have to overcome = the 1' of head from the tank to the sump to impede flow. If it pointed = forward, it would slightly pressurize all three tanks, thus having no effect. = If one of the caps is leaking air, no big deal because the air pressure is the = same in both mains since they are interconnected. By making the atmosphere = common to all three tanks, this issue of negative/positive pressure goes away = and we rely on gravity to do it's job, which it does with admirable = consistency.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of alventures
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:29 = AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel = and vent sytem

This has been an = interesting discussion, and a lot of it focused on the vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the fuel system design. I think there = is an element of the design which is an inherent weakness, and which is at the = root of these observed problems.

Consider that the bottom = of our fuel tank is about at the bottom of the spar. The top of the sump = tank is just below the spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple inches = below that. Now note that a 1” head of fuel is only about 0.03 = psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our tanks are full we have = about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the fuel to the sump when the sump is = full. When the strake is nearly empty, that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as the sump drains down to expose the inlet from = the strake, but that’s as high as it’s going to get no matter = how far the sump drains – the head that drives the fuel can only go as far = the exit at the sump.

So how much of a = disturbance does it take to cause a problem. Damn little – like a little cap = leak, or partially plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is = right there at the top of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no = matter how temporary, the light goes on. Does this blinking light issue = come up more frequently on Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at a = higher rate?

So one = obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is that without = the sump vent we don’t have to rely on that very small gravity head for = fuel feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to assist if = needed. (of course if = the fuel is very warm and the vapor pressure gets high there won’t be much = suction ability either, but that is not likely an issue).

Now don’t let these = low pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did some flow tests a couple of years ago with a = 3/8” vinyl tube where I could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a = couple of things. One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, = even with only a few inches of head, was “pretty fast”. I = didn’t measure what that meant in gph, but I’m going to guess that two = tubes can run over 10 gph just fine. And experience bears that out. = Surely someone has measured the gravity flow from the tanks, right? What = is it?

The second thing was that air bubbles, for the most part, didn’t seem to be an issue. With very = low flow they would migrate up stream, but it didn’t take much flow = for them to easily get carried with the flow and into the container. These = bubbles varied from very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube. =

I say ‘for the most part’ because there was one thing that = caught my attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and = air in the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the = fuel was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube. It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel. Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface. I don’t know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to = the sump is an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely = to be submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the = strake, and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air. = It may take a little while for the air to resolve where it’s going; = upstream or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump it = will hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when we open = the purge valve.

I can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way = back to the strake; but, don’t forget, that won’t happen until = the air builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the = stake tank – at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or blinking.

So the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in = an airplane where the design doesn’t give us much of a gravity head (pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus – simplicity. = We can always do as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the = fuel from the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, = and maybe valving off the sump vent.

One further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is = bypassed back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the = sump to avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of = the sudden expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they = will re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump = vent.

Sorry to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of = what I post.

Al

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C35426.01045F20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 18:26:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:26:28 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> <002001c3541d$4216a170$0300a8c0@DAD> Message-ID: <3F240B44.343D69DD@dixie-net.com> --------------235CD52FA2C545840197224B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott, I'm glad we're having this discussion. On my plane, each wing has an overflow line exiting the bottom of the wing with a 90 degree bend to face forward, exactly like one would see on a Cessna. I know it's an overflow line because fuel pours out if I try to fill my tanks to the very top and the wings are not completely level. The manifold vent line exits vertically through the bottom of the fuselage and is cut at a 45 degree angle such that the long end faces forward. Basically what I have are pitot tubes pumping air into the tanks. I believe the pressure condition is dynamic, not static, with a constant flow from the tanks to the manifold vent. So we have 2 things to discuss - what to do with my system, and what to do with the standard Velocity system. Concerning the Velocity system, I do not agree that pulling a vacuum via the vent line will necessarily reduce fuel flow from the tanks to the sump. In a static situation (no overflow lines) the vapor space pressure will be the same in the tanks and in the sump and there will be no effect on fuel flow no matter if there is a vacuum, neutral, or pressure on the vent line. Only if the tank vapor space pressure is different from the sump vapor space pressure can there be an effect on the flow. The pressure can be temporarily different whenever there is a change in the manifold vent pressure. For example during descent the vent pressure will increase. The small (if any) vapor space in the sump will quickly increase while the much greater air space in the tanks will take more time thereby making the tank vapor pressure temporarily less than the sump and reducing fuel flow from the tank to the sump. This effect will be greatest when the tanks have the least fuel and that is the worst time for it because the head of fuel that provides the flow to the sump is the least. I would think this problem can be eliminated by eliminating the sump vent to the manifold and adding new vents from the sump to each tank. The key point is that the sump would be vented to the tanks. This would guarantee the sump vapor pressure would be close to the tank vapor pressure at all times. If the Velocity system has the vent line pointing into the wind, then both the sump and tanks are being pressurized. I would think that the max pressure would occur at max IAS, say about 150 kn for the standard Velocity. Can someone tell me what pitot line pressure corresponds to 150 kn? This is the max pressure that will be put on the tanks and I want to know if that is acceptable. Also, is there any concern about the effect of repeated pressurization and depressurization of the tanks? As I said before the pressurization will not enhance flow from the tanks, however it will enhance flow from the sump to the engine. However, I believe both fuel pumps can achieve several psi of suction which dwarfs the pressurization effect. My system should balance the tank and sump pressures dynamically. There should be a constant influx of air through the overflow vents, throught the tanks, to the manifold and out the vent. This flow should dominate the pressure in the vent lines and keep the sump at the same pressure as the tanks without pressurizing the tanks much, just whatever the small pressure drop is as the air flows from the tanks to the vent. However, I need to understand what's going on with the sensor. I haven't checked the sensor yet. Shouldn't a sensor problem occur all the time and not just at high altitude? John Scott Baker wrote: > John, Something you just said in your previous post has me > concerned. ==============================================="I want to > clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced > forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces > forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to > the > rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system." > John > =============================================== a) If your vent > system is pulling a little vacuum, then you are "unpressurizing" the > fuel tanks - which slows the fuel flow from the main tanks to the > header tank. The fuel vent line should be installed so that it > introduces pressure into the fuel tanks. The construction manual > clearly shows the vent line pointing into the wind.b) What tank > overflow line? The Velocity schematic does not feature a "tank > overflow line" (other than the vent line itself). It sounds like your > system has more tubes - which may be just fine - however it is > different from what is shown in the construction manual. Short story - > For a few years I owned a business to help composite aircraft owners > build their aircraft. While I was working on the fuel system for a > Velocity customer I had the "brainstorm" to redesign the fuel and vent > system for a XL which would allow for a fuel selector valve. I > consulted with Duane Swing at the factory - who was kind enough to > review the facsimiles that I sent which outlined my new and improved > fuel system. Duane patiently pointed out some possible pitfalls to > the design. He offered a stern warning to be very careful when > changing something like this (meaning - the fuel system needs to be > 100% reliable if the engine is going to stay running - if you're going > to screw around (i.e.. alter the schematic or the installation) you > need to be pretty sure of what you are doing - and to think through > every possible situation that the change might affect. I went ahead > with my improved fuel line/vent system - and later - when mimicking a > ground fuel flow test to see if the system would deliver 25 gph (take > off power) - I found that the fuel lines had too many curves and had > too long a run to sustain this flow rate - which would have meant a > partial loss of power about 2-minutes following takeoff. What a > sobering discovery! Following this I removed the "new and improved" > plumbing and reinstalled the system that was "in the book" - and the > aircraft is operating without problem. What I'm leading to is this - > it looks like someone has changed your fuel system. If you have more > than one vent line sticking out under the aircraft, then it is > different from the Velocity schematic. Someone obviously felt a need > to "improve" the fuel/vent system - what we don't know is this really > an improvement - or is it the source of your problem (as in my true > story above)? As to your question as to why the low sump fuel light > might come on in aircraft with the Velocity fuel schematic - in an > earlier post I offered an opinion that the float switch might be > culprit - causing a false signal. Have you had a chance to remove the > float switch in order to test it? Is the float buoyant in avgas? Best > regards,Scott B --------------235CD52FA2C545840197224B Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott,
I'm glad we're having this discussion. On my plane, each wing has an overflow line exiting the bottom of the wing with a 90 degree bend to face forward, exactly like one would see on a Cessna. I know it's an overflow line because fuel pours out if I try to fill my tanks to the very top and the wings are not completely level. The manifold vent line exits vertically through the bottom of the fuselage and is cut at a 45 degree angle such that the long end faces forward.
Basically what I have are pitot tubes pumping air into the tanks. I believe the pressure condition is dynamic, not static, with a constant flow from the tanks to the manifold vent.
So we have 2 things to discuss - what to do with my system, and what to do with the standard Velocity system.
Concerning the Velocity system, I do not agree that pulling a vacuum via the vent line will necessarily reduce fuel flow from the tanks to the sump. In a static situation (no overflow lines) the vapor space pressure will be the same in the tanks and in the sump and there will be no effect on fuel flow no matter if there is a vacuum, neutral, or pressure on the vent line. Only if the tank vapor space pressure is different from the sump vapor space pressure can there be an effect on the flow. The pressure can be temporarily different whenever there is a change in the manifold vent pressure. For example during descent the vent pressure will increase. The small (if any) vapor space in the sump will quickly increase while the much greater air space in the tanks will take more time thereby making the tank vapor pressure temporarily less than the sump and reducing fuel flow from the tank to the sump. This effect will be greatest when the tanks have the least fuel and that is the worst time for it because the head of fuel that provides the flow to the sump is the least. I would think this problem can be eliminated by eliminating the sump vent to the manifold and adding new vents from the sump to each tank. The key point is that the sump would be vented to the tanks. This would guarantee the sump vapor pressure would be close to the tank vapor pressure at all times.
If the Velocity system has the vent line pointing into the wind, then both the sump and tanks are being pressurized. I would think that the max pressure would occur at max IAS, say about 150 kn for the standard Velocity. Can someone tell me what pitot line pressure corresponds to 150 kn? This is the max pressure that will be put on the tanks and I want to know if that is acceptable. Also, is there any concern about the effect of repeated pressurization and depressurization of the tanks? As I said before the pressurization will not enhance flow from the tanks, however it will enhance flow from the sump to the engine. However, I believe both fuel pumps can achieve several psi of suction which dwarfs the pressurization effect.
My system should balance the tank and sump pressures dynamically. There should be a constant influx of air through the overflow vents, throught the tanks, to the manifold and out the vent. This flow should dominate the pressure in the vent lines and keep the sump at the same pressure as the tanks without pressurizing the tanks much, just whatever the small pressure drop is as the air flows from the tanks to the vent. However, I need to understand what's going on with the sensor. I haven't checked the sensor yet. Shouldn't a sensor problem occur all the time and not just at high altitude?
John
Scott Baker wrote:
John, Something you just said in your previous post has me concerned. ==============================================="I want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced
forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces
forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the
rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system."
John
=============================================== a) If your vent system is pulling a little vacuum, then you are "unpressurizing" the fuel tanks - which slows the fuel flow from the main tanks to the header tank. The fuel vent line should be installed so that it introduces pressure into the fuel tanks. The construction manual clearly shows the vent line pointing into the wind.b) What tank overflow line? The Velocity schematic does not feature a "tank overflow line" (other than the vent line itself). It sounds like your system has more tubes - which may be just fine - however it is different from what is shown in the construction manual. Short story - For a few years I owned a business to help composite aircraft owners build their aircraft. While I was working on the fuel system for a Velocity customer I had the "brainstorm" to redesign the fuel and vent system for a XL which would allow for a fuel selector valve. I consulted with Duane Swing at the factory - who was kind enough to review the facsimiles that I sent which outlined my new and improved fuel system. Duane patiently pointed out some possible pitfalls to the design. He offered a stern warning to be very careful when changing something like this (meaning - the fuel system needs to be 100% reliable if the engine is going to stay running - if you're going to screw around (i.e.. alter the schematic or the installation) you need to be pretty sure of what you are doing - and to think through every possible situation that the change might affect. I went ahead with my improved fuel line/vent system - and later - when mimicking a ground fuel flow test to see if the system would deliver 25 gph (take off power) - I found that the fuel lines had too many curves and had too long a run to sustain this flow rate - which would have meant a partial loss of power about 2-minutes following takeoff. What a sobering discovery! Following this I removed the "new and improved" plumbing and reinstalled the system that was "in the book" - and the aircraft is operating without problem. What I'm leading to is this - it looks like someone has changed your fuel system. If you have more than one vent line sticking out under the aircraft, then it is different from the Velocity schematic. Someone obviously felt a need to "improve" the fuel/vent system - what we don't know is this really an improvement - or is it the source of your problem (as in my true story above)? As to your question as to why the low sump fuel light might come on in aircraft with the Velocity fuel schematic - in an earlier post I offered an opinion that the float switch might be culprit - causing a false signal. Have you had a chance to remove the float switch in order to test it? Is the float buoyant in avgas? Best regards,Scott B
--------------235CD52FA2C545840197224B-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 21:03:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Black) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:03:20 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> <002001c3541d$4216a170$0300a8c0@DAD> <3F240B44.343D69DD@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F243008.C5B93372@comcast.net> John, > On my plane, each wing has an overflow line exiting the bottom > of the wing with a 90 degree bend to face forward, exactly like > one would see on a Cessna. I know it's an overflow line because > fuel pours out if I try to fill my tanks to the very top and the > wings are not completely level. This is the original factory design of the Velocity fuel vent system, before the manifold was introduced. I call it the 'black magic' vent system, because it relies on odd twists and perforations in the vent line to somehow keep fuel onboard while allowing vent air in. In fact, it works best as an overflow drain -- exactly as you have observed. Since each tank had its own separate vent line, it's easy to see how fuel imbalance could occur. In fact, the only way an imbalance would not occur is if you somehow were able to pressurize both tanks equally. A tricky job when you have separate lines. To eliminate the fuel overflow issue, it was necessary to bring the vent lines UP from the fuel tank -- which meant into the rear cabin area. Hence the concept of tying all the vent lines together at the manifold was born. This was SUPPOSED to fix the all-too-common fuel imbalance problem. But in a number of cases, it did not. Most common causes are leaking fuel caps (can easily overpower the vent lines), vent lines which have a low spot (trapping fuel and blocking the line), and flying in a skid. As to the low fuel sensor, it has often been mentioned that the float sensor supplied by Velocity can, over time, absorb fuel and thus quit floating. This, of course, will give a low fuel warning. The other likely cause is mounting the float sensor too high in the sump tank. Remember that under ideal conditions, fuel in both main tanks and the sump tank will be at the same level. In most installations, I believe the top of the sump tank is several inches above the bottom of the main tanks. Thus, when you are using your last couple inches of fuel, you should expect to see the level of the sump tank drop as the tank level drops. Again, if the float sensor is mounted high in the sump, it'll trigger. I would think it best if the top of the sump tank were below the bottom of the strake tanks. Then the sump would stay full right up until the mains were dry. Best, Dave Black Shortwing RG From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 21:11:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:11:59 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> <002001c3541d$4216a170$0300a8c0@DAD> <3F240B44.343D69DD@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <01b101c3547b$567f4dc0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01AE_01C35459.CEE766C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, I don't have a data point for 150 knots but 174 knots =3D 20.04 inches = of water or 0.72 psig. =20 I would be concerned about the two different over flow vents being at = the same static pressure as the vent system. It is difficult to get a = good, reliable, accurate static pressure at 150 or 200 knots, so you = have a good chance of having just an inch or two difference between the = 3 vents you have, which CAN cause flow problems between the three = tanks, especially if the central vent system is made up of 1/4" lines as = many Velocities have. By the way, late model Cessnas only have a single forward facing vent, = because the earlier Cessnas had separate tank vents and fuel levels = would not stay the same. The single vent is tied to both tanks and = there are also one way check valves involved. Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Dibble=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:26 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Scott,=20 I'm glad we're having this discussion. On my plane, each wing has an = overflow line exiting the bottom of the wing with a 90 degree bend to = face forward, exactly like one would see on a Cessna. I know it's an = overflow line because fuel pours out if I try to fill my tanks to the = very top and the wings are not completely level. The manifold vent line = exits vertically through the bottom of the fuselage and is cut at a 45 = degree angle such that the long end faces forward.=20 Basically what I have are pitot tubes pumping air into the tanks. I = believe the pressure condition is dynamic, not static, with a constant = flow from the tanks to the manifold vent.=20 So we have 2 things to discuss - what to do with my system, and what = to do with the standard Velocity system.=20 Concerning the Velocity system, I do not agree that pulling a vacuum = via the vent line will necessarily reduce fuel flow from the tanks to = the sump. In a static situation (no overflow lines) the vapor space = pressure will be the same in the tanks and in the sump and there will be = no effect on fuel flow no matter if there is a vacuum, neutral, or = pressure on the vent line. Only if the tank vapor space pressure is = different from the sump vapor space pressure can there be an effect on = the flow. The pressure can be temporarily different whenever there is a = change in the manifold vent pressure. For example during descent the = vent pressure will increase. The small (if any) vapor space in the sump = will quickly increase while the much greater air space in the tanks will = take more time thereby making the tank vapor pressure temporarily less = than the sump and reducing fuel flow from the tank to the sump. This = effect will be greatest when the tanks have the least fuel and that is = the worst time for it because the head of fuel that provides the flow to = the sump is the least. I would think this problem can be eliminated by = eliminating the sump vent to the manifold and adding new vents from the = sump to each tank. The key point is that the sump would be vented to = the tanks. This would guarantee the sump vapor pressure would be close = to the tank vapor pressure at all times.=20 If the Velocity system has the vent line pointing into the wind, then = both the sump and tanks are being pressurized. I would think that the = max pressure would occur at max IAS, say about 150 kn for the standard = Velocity. Can someone tell me what pitot line pressure corresponds to = 150 kn? This is the max pressure that will be put on the tanks and I = want to know if that is acceptable. Also, is there any concern about = the effect of repeated pressurization and depressurization of the tanks? = As I said before the pressurization will not enhance flow from the = tanks, however it will enhance flow from the sump to the engine. = However, I believe both fuel pumps can achieve several psi of suction = which dwarfs the pressurization effect.=20 My system should balance the tank and sump pressures dynamically. = There should be a constant influx of air through the overflow vents, = throught the tanks, to the manifold and out the vent. This flow should = dominate the pressure in the vent lines and keep the sump at the same = pressure as the tanks without pressurizing the tanks much, just whatever = the small pressure drop is as the air flows from the tanks to the vent. = However, I need to understand what's going on with the sensor. I = haven't checked the sensor yet. Shouldn't a sensor problem occur all = the time and not just at high altitude?=20 John=20 Scott Baker wrote:=20 John, Something you just said in your previous post has me = concerned. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D"I = want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced=20 forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that = faces=20 forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to = the=20 rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system."=20 John=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D a) = If your vent system is pulling a little vacuum, then you are = "unpressurizing" the fuel tanks - which slows the fuel flow from the = main tanks to the header tank. The fuel vent line should be installed = so that it introduces pressure into the fuel tanks. The construction = manual clearly shows the vent line pointing into the wind.b) What tank = overflow line? The Velocity schematic does not feature a "tank overflow = line" (other than the vent line itself). It sounds like your system has = more tubes - which may be just fine - however it is different from what = is shown in the construction manual. Short story - For a few years I = owned a business to help composite aircraft owners build their aircraft. = While I was working on the fuel system for a Velocity customer I had = the "brainstorm" to redesign the fuel and vent system for a XL which = would allow for a fuel selector valve. I consulted with Duane Swing at = the factory - who was kind enough to review the facsimiles that I sent = which outlined my new and improved fuel system. Duane patiently pointed = out some possible pitfalls to the design. He offered a stern warning to = be very careful when changing something like this (meaning - the fuel = system needs to be 100% reliable if the engine is going to stay running = - if you're going to screw around (i.e.. alter the schematic or the = installation) you need to be pretty sure of what you are doing - and to = think through every possible situation that the change might affect. I = went ahead with my improved fuel line/vent system - and later - when = mimicking a ground fuel flow test to see if the system would deliver 25 = gph (take off power) - I found that the fuel lines had too many curves = and had too long a run to sustain this flow rate - which would have = meant a partial loss of power about 2-minutes following takeoff. What a = sobering discovery! Following this I removed the "new and improved" = plumbing and reinstalled the system that was "in the book" - and the = aircraft is operating without problem. What I'm leading to is this - it = looks like someone has changed your fuel system. If you have more than = one vent line sticking out under the aircraft, then it is different from = the Velocity schematic. Someone obviously felt a need to "improve" the = fuel/vent system - what we don't know is this really an improvement - or = is it the source of your problem (as in my true story above)? As to your = question as to why the low sump fuel light might come on in aircraft = with the Velocity fuel schematic - in an earlier post I offered an = opinion that the float switch might be culprit - causing a false signal. = Have you had a chance to remove the float switch in order to test it? = Is the float buoyant in avgas? Best regards,Scott B ------=_NextPart_000_01AE_01C35459.CEE766C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

I don't have a data point for 150 knots but 174 = knots =3D 20.04=20 inches of water or 0.72 psig.

I would be concerned about the two different over = flow vents=20 being at the same static pressure as the vent system. It is = difficult to=20 get a good, reliable, accurate static pressure at 150 or 200 knots, = so you=20 have a good chance of having just an inch or two difference between the = 3 =20 vents you have, which CAN cause flow problems between the three tanks,=20 especially if the central vent system is made up of 1/4" lines as many=20 Velocities have.

By the way, late model Cessnas only have a single = forward=20 facing vent, because the earlier Cessnas had separate tank vents and = fuel levels=20 would not stay the same. The single vent is tied to both tanks and = there=20 are also one way check valves involved.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Dibble
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 = 1:26 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel = light

Scott,=20
I'm glad we're having this discussion. On my plane, each wing = has an=20 overflow line exiting the bottom of the wing with a 90 degree bend to = face=20 forward, exactly like one would see on a Cessna. I know it's an = overflow=20 line because fuel pours out if I try to fill my tanks to the very top = and the=20 wings are not completely level. The manifold vent line exits = vertically=20 through the bottom of the fuselage and is cut at a 45 degree angle = such that=20 the long end faces forward.
Basically what I have are pitot tubes = pumping=20 air into the tanks. I believe the pressure condition is dynamic, = not=20 static, with a constant flow from the tanks to the manifold vent. =
So we=20 have 2 things to discuss - what to do with my system, and what to do = with the=20 standard Velocity system.
Concerning the Velocity system, I do not = agree=20 that pulling a vacuum via the vent line will necessarily reduce fuel = flow from=20 the tanks to the sump. In a static situation (no overflow lines) = the=20 vapor space pressure will be the same in the tanks and in the sump and = there=20 will be no effect on fuel flow no matter if there is a vacuum, = neutral, or=20 pressure on the vent line. Only if the tank vapor space pressure = is=20 different from the sump vapor space pressure can there be an effect on = the=20 flow. The pressure can be temporarily different whenever there = is a=20 change in the manifold vent pressure. For example during descent = the=20 vent pressure will increase. The small (if any) vapor space in = the sump=20 will quickly increase while the much greater air space in the tanks = will take=20 more time thereby making the tank vapor pressure temporarily less than = the=20 sump and reducing fuel flow from the tank to the sump. This = effect will=20 be greatest when the tanks have the least fuel and that is the worst = time for=20 it because the head of fuel that provides the flow to the sump is the=20 least. I would think this problem can be eliminated by = eliminating the=20 sump vent to the manifold and adding new vents from the sump to each=20 tank. The key point is that the sump would be vented to the = tanks. =20 This would guarantee the sump vapor pressure would be close to the = tank vapor=20 pressure at all times.
If the Velocity system has the vent line = pointing=20 into the wind, then both the sump and tanks are being = pressurized. I=20 would think that the max pressure would occur at max IAS, say about = 150 kn for=20 the standard Velocity. Can someone tell me what pitot line = pressure=20 corresponds to 150 kn? This is the max pressure that will be put = on the=20 tanks and I want to know if that is acceptable. Also, is there = any=20 concern about the effect of repeated pressurization and = depressurization of=20 the tanks? As I said before the pressurization will not enhance = flow=20 from the tanks, however it will enhance flow from the sump to the=20 engine. However, I believe both fuel pumps can achieve several = psi of=20 suction which dwarfs the pressurization effect.=20
My system should balance the tank and sump pressures = dynamically. =20 There should be a constant influx of air through the overflow vents, = throught=20 the tanks, to the manifold and out the vent. This flow should = dominate=20 the pressure in the vent lines and keep the sump at the same pressure = as the=20 tanks without pressurizing the tanks much, just whatever the small = pressure=20 drop is as the air flows from the tanks to the vent. However, I = need to=20 understand what's going on with the sensor. I haven't checked = the sensor=20 yet. Shouldn't a sensor problem occur all the time and not just = at high=20 altitude?=20
John=20
Scott Baker wrote:=20
John, Something you just said in your = previous post has=20 me concerned. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D"I want to clarify something. = Previously I=20 said my tank vent faced
forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent = that=20 faces
forward = and should=20 pressurize the tank. My manifold vent = points to=20 the
rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent=20 system."
John
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D a) If your vent system is pulling = a little=20 vacuum, then you are "unpressurizing" the fuel tanks - which slows = the fuel=20 flow from the main tanks to the header tank. The fuel vent = line=20 should be installed so that it introduces pressure into the fuel=20 tanks. The construction manual clearly shows the vent line = pointing into the wind.b) What=20 tank overflow line? The Velocity schematic does not feature a = "tank=20 overflow line" (other than the vent line itself). It sounds = like your=20 system has more tubes - which may be just fine - however it is=20 different from what is shown in the construction=20 manual. Short = story - For=20 a few years I owned a business to help composite aircraft owners = build their=20 aircraft. While I was working on the fuel system for a = Velocity=20 customer I had the "brainstorm" to redesign the fuel and vent system = for a=20 XL which would allow for a fuel selector valve. I consulted = with Duane=20 Swing at the factory - who was kind enough to review the facsimiles = that I=20 sent which outlined my new and improved fuel system. Duane = patiently=20 pointed out some possible pitfalls to the design. He offered a = stern=20 warning to be very careful when changing something like this = (meaning=20 - the fuel system needs to be 100% reliable if the engine is going = to stay=20 running - if you're going to screw around (i.e.. alter the schematic = or the=20 installation) you need to be pretty sure of what you are doing - and = to=20 think through every possible situation that the change might=20 affect. I went ahead with my improved fuel line/vent = system - and=20 later - when mimicking a ground fuel flow test to see if the system = would=20 deliver 25 gph (take off power) - I found that the fuel lines had = too many=20 curves and had too long a run to sustain this flow rate - which = would have=20 meant a partial loss of power about 2-minutes following = takeoff. What=20 a sobering discovery! Following this I removed the "new and = improved"=20 plumbing and reinstalled the system that was "in the book" - and the = aircraft is operating without problem. What I'm leading to is this - it looks = like someone=20 has changed your fuel system. If you have more than one vent = line=20 sticking out under the aircraft, then it is different from the = Velocity=20 schematic. Someone obviously felt a need to "improve" the = fuel/vent=20 system - what we don't know is this really an improvement - or is it = the=20 source of your problem (as in my true story = above)? As to your question as to why the low = sump fuel=20 light might come on in aircraft with the Velocity fuel schematic - = in an=20 earlier post I offered an opinion that the float switch might be = culprit -=20 causing a false signal. Have you had a chance to remove the = float=20 switch in order to test it? Is the float buoyant in=20 avgas? Best=20 regards,Scott=20 B
------=_NextPart_000_01AE_01C35459.CEE766C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun Jul 27 21:52:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:52:29 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35480.FE45EAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" John, At the risk of interpreting what you wrote, I believe you are concuring with my earlier post; that being, if the tanks and sump were all connected to the same vent-line (a manifold if you like), then the pressure in both tanks and sump, by definition, must be equal. In your case, you were proposing to vent the sump to each of the tanks, though this might allow water/air traps, depending on configuration. I would be more comfortable with each being vented to a collection manifold. With a common vent manifold, it really matters little whether the atmosphere above all the tanks/sump is slightly positive or negative; the draw of the fuel pump will overwhelm any slight negative pressure that could hypothetically be present. And, since fuel responds to gravity, I would think it would dependably flow to the sump from both tanks and the sump would always be 100% full. After all, how could a pocket of air exist in a vented sump???(that'll start another round!) There would be a vertical column of fuel in the sump vent line that rises up to the equal height of the fuel in the strakes. This fuel column would need to let any air introduced to the sump (ie. sharp descent which uncovers the tank(s) outlet) ,pass out the vent. Of course, if the strake outlets are uncovered and fuel is drawn by the engine from the sump, the fuel column in the vent line would empty into the sump. When level flight resumed, the air in the sump would be pushed out the evacuated sump vent line by the ample fuel flowing from both tanks. Just to be sure, if there was any question of the ability of air to vent through a fuel filled 3/8" vent line (and Al's earlier posting indicates there probably isn't), a 1/2" vent line could be used instead to rise vertically from the sump to the common vent manifold, which is connected to the other two tank vents. And, this configuration certainly couldn't siphon from the sump tank, as experienced by SB during his test flight (when the backward facing sump vent drew a vacuum and started a siphon from the sump overboard), since siphoning depends on a hi/lo differential and there is none because all of the tanks are the same pressure. No more sump sloshing. No more concern about a leaky fuel tank cap. No more unbalanced tank feeds from different pressures in the tank strakes from variation in pressurization from the vent line or leaky fuel cap......unless the plane is unbalanced in cruised, but that's a different problem and different post. Simple, no? Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John Dibble Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:26 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Scott, I'm glad we're having this discussion. On my plane, each wing has an overflow line exiting the bottom of the wing with a 90 degree bend to face forward, exactly like one would see on a Cessna. I know it's an overflow line because fuel pours out if I try to fill my tanks to the very top and the wings are not completely level. The manifold vent line exits vertically through the bottom of the fuselage and is cut at a 45 degree angle such that the long end faces forward. Basically what I have are pitot tubes pumping air into the tanks. I believe the pressure condition is dynamic, not static, with a constant flow from the tanks to the manifold vent. So we have 2 things to discuss - what to do with my system, and what to do with the standard Velocity system. Concerning the Velocity system, I do not agree that pulling a vacuum via the vent line will necessarily reduce fuel flow from the tanks to the sump. In a static situation (no overflow lines) the vapor space pressure will be the same in the tanks and in the sump and there will be no effect on fuel flow no matter if there is a vacuum, neutral, or pressure on the vent line. Only if the tank vapor space pressure is different from the sump vapor space pressure can there be an effect on the flow. The pressure can be temporarily different whenever there is a change in the manifold vent pressure. For example during descent the vent pressure will increase. The small (if any) vapor space in the sump will quickly increase while the much greater air space in the tanks will take more time thereby making the tank vapor pressure temporarily less than the sump and reducing fuel flow from the tank to the sump. This effect will be greatest when the tanks have the least fuel and that is the worst time for it because the head of fuel that provides the flow to the sump is the least. I would think this problem can be eliminated by eliminating the sump vent to the manifold and adding new vents from the sump to each tank. The key point is that the sump would be vented to the tanks. This would guarantee the sump vapor pressure would be close to the tank vapor pressure at all times. If the Velocity system has the vent line pointing into the wind, then both the sump and tanks are being pressurized. I would think that the max pressure would occur at max IAS, say about 150 kn for the standard Velocity. Can someone tell me what pitot line pressure corresponds to 150 kn? This is the max pressure that will be put on the tanks and I want to know if that is acceptable. Also, is there any concern about the effect of repeated pressurization and depressurization of the tanks? As I said before the pressurization will not enhance flow from the tanks, however it will enhance flow from the sump to the engine. However, I believe both fuel pumps can achieve several psi of suction which dwarfs the pressurization effect. My system should balance the tank and sump pressures dynamically. There should be a constant influx of air through the overflow vents, throught the tanks, to the manifold and out the vent. This flow should dominate the pressure in the vent lines and keep the sump at the same pressure as the tanks without pressurizing the tanks much, just whatever the small pressure drop is as the air flows from the tanks to the vent. However, I need to understand what's going on with the sensor. I haven't checked the sensor yet. Shouldn't a sensor problem occur all the time and not just at high altitude? John Scott Baker wrote: John, Something you just said in your previous post has me concerned. ==============================================="I want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system." John =============================================== a) If your vent system is pulling a little vacuum, then you are "unpressurizing" the fuel tanks - which slows the fuel flow from the main tanks to the header tank. The fuel vent line should be installed so that it introduces pressure into the fuel tanks. The construction manual clearly shows the vent line pointing into the wind.b) What tank overflow line? The Velocity schematic does not feature a "tank overflow line" (other than the vent line itself). It sounds like your system has more tubes - which may be just fine - however it is different from what is shown in the construction manual. Short story - For a few years I owned a business to help composite aircraft owners build their aircraft. While I was working on the fuel system for a Velocity customer I had the "brainstorm" to redesign the fuel and vent system for a XL which would allow for a fuel selector valve. I consulted with Duane Swing at the factory - who was kind enough to review the facsimiles that I sent which outlined my new and improved fuel system. Duane patiently pointed out some possible pitfalls to the design. He offered a stern warning to be very careful when changing something like this (meaning - the fuel system needs to be 100% reliable if the engine is going to stay running - if you're going to screw around (i.e.. alter the schematic or the installation) you need to be pretty sure of what you are doing - and to think through every possible situation that the change might affect. I went ahead with my improved fuel line/vent system - and later - when mimicking a ground fuel flow test to see if the system would deliver 25 gph (take off power) - I found that the fuel lines had too many curves and had too long a run to sustain this flow rate - which would have meant a partial loss of power about 2-minutes following takeoff. What a sobering discovery! Following this I removed the "new and improved" plumbing and reinstalled the system that was "in the book" - and the aircraft is operating without problem. What I'm leading to is this - it looks like someone has changed your fuel system. If you have more than one vent line sticking out under the aircraft, then it is different from the Velocity schematic. Someone obviously felt a need to "improve" the fuel/vent system - what we don't know is this really an improvement - or is it the source of your problem (as in my true story above)? As to your question as to why the low sump fuel light might come on in aircraft with the Velocity fuel schematic - in an earlier post I offered an opinion that the float switch might be culprit - causing a false signal. Have you had a chance to remove the float switch in order to test it? Is the float buoyant in avgas? Best regards,Scott B ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35480.FE45EAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r"
John,

At the risk of interpreting what you wrote, I believe you are concuring with my earlier post; that being, if the tanks and sump were all connected to the same vent-line (a manifold if you like), then the pressure in both tanks and sump, by definition, must be equal.   In your case, you were proposing to vent the sump to each of the tanks, though this might allow water/air traps, depending on configuration. I would be more comfortable with each being vented to a collection manifold.

With a common vent manifold, it really matters little whether the atmosphere above all the tanks/sump is slightly positive or negative; the draw of the fuel pump will overwhelm any slight negative pressure that could hypothetically be present. And, since fuel responds to gravity, I would think it would dependably flow to the sump from both tanks and the sump would always be 100% full.

After all, how could a pocket of air exist in a vented sump???(that'll start another round!)

There would be a vertical column of fuel in the sump vent line that rises up to the equal height of the fuel in the strakes. This fuel column would need to let any air introduced to the sump (ie. sharp descent which uncovers the tank(s) outlet) ,pass out the vent. Of course, if the strake outlets are uncovered and fuel is drawn by the engine from the sump, the fuel column in the vent line would empty into the sump. When level flight resumed, the air in the sump would be pushed out the evacuated sump vent line by the ample fuel flowing from both tanks.

Just to be sure, if there was any question of the ability of air to vent through a fuel filled 3/8" vent line (and Al's earlier posting indicates there probably isn't), a 1/2" vent line could be used instead to rise vertically from the sump to the common vent manifold, which is connected to the other two tank vents.

And, this configuration certainly couldn't siphon from the sump tank, as experienced by SB during his test flight (when the backward facing sump vent drew a vacuum and started a siphon from the sump overboard), since siphoning depends on a hi/lo differential and there is none because all of the tanks are the same pressure. No more sump sloshing. No more concern about a leaky fuel tank cap. No more unbalanced tank feeds from different pressures in the tank strakes from variation in pressurization from the vent line or leaky fuel cap......unless the plane is unbalanced in cruised, but that's a different problem and different post.

Simple, no?

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John Dibble
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:26 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Scott,
I'm glad we're having this discussion. On my plane, each wing has an overflow line exiting the bottom of the wing with a 90 degree bend to face forward, exactly like one would see on a Cessna. I know it's an overflow line because fuel pours out if I try to fill my tanks to the very top and the wings are not completely level. The manifold vent line exits vertically through the bottom of the fuselage and is cut at a 45 degree angle such that the long end faces forward.
Basically what I have are pitot tubes pumping air into the tanks. I believe the pressure condition is dynamic, not static, with a constant flow from the tanks to the manifold vent.
So we have 2 things to discuss - what to do with my system, and what to do with the standard Velocity system.
Concerning the Velocity system, I do not agree that pulling a vacuum via the vent line will necessarily reduce fuel flow from the tanks to the sump. In a static situation (no overflow lines) the vapor space pressure will be the same in the tanks and in the sump and there will be no effect on fuel flow no matter if there is a vacuum, neutral, or pressure on the vent line. Only if the tank vapor space pressure is different from the sump vapor space pressure can there be an effect on the flow. The pressure can be temporarily different whenever there is a change in the manifold vent pressure. For example during descent the vent pressure will increase. The small (if any) vapor space in the sump will quickly increase while the much greater air space in the tanks will take more time thereby making the tank vapor pressure temporarily less than the sump and reducing fuel flow from the tank to the sump. This effect will be greatest when the tanks have the least fuel and that is the worst time for it because the head of fuel that provides the flow to the sump is the least. I would think this problem can be eliminated by eliminating the sump vent to the manifold and adding new vents from the sump to each tank. The key point is that the sump would be vented to the tanks. This would guarantee the sump vapor pressure would be close to the tank vapor pressure at all times.
If the Velocity system has the vent line pointing into the wind, then both the sump and tanks are being pressurized. I would think that the max pressure would occur at max IAS, say about 150 kn for the standard Velocity. Can someone tell me what pitot line pressure corresponds to 150 kn? This is the max pressure that will be put on the tanks and I want to know if that is acceptable. Also, is there any concern about the effect of repeated pressurization and depressurization of the tanks? As I said before the pressurization will not enhance flow from the tanks, however it will enhance flow from the sump to the engine. However, I believe both fuel pumps can achieve several psi of suction which dwarfs the pressurization effect.
My system should balance the tank and sump pressures dynamically. There should be a constant influx of air through the overflow vents, throught the tanks, to the manifold and out the vent. This flow should dominate the pressure in the vent lines and keep the sump at the same pressure as the tanks without pressurizing the tanks much, just whatever the small pressure drop is as the air flows from the tanks to the vent. However, I need to understand what's going on with the sensor. I haven't checked the sensor yet. Shouldn't a sensor problem occur all the time and not just at high altitude?
John
Scott Baker wrote:
John, Something you just said in your previous post has me concerned. ==============================================="I want to clarify something. Previously I said my tank vent faced
forward, but it is the tank overflow line and not the vent that faces
forward and should pressurize the tank. My manifold vent points to the
rear and should pull a little vacuum on the vent system."
John
=============================================== a) If your vent system is pulling a little vacuum, then you are "unpressurizing" the fuel tanks - which slows the fuel flow from the main tanks to the header tank. The fuel vent line should be installed so that it introduces pressure into the fuel tanks. The construction manual clearly shows the vent line pointing into the wind.b) What tank overflow line? The Velocity schematic does not feature a "tank overflow line" (other than the vent line itself). It sounds like your system has more tubes - which may be just fine - however it is different from what is shown in the construction manual. Short story - For a few years I owned a business to help composite aircraft owners build their aircraft. While I was working on the fuel system for a Velocity customer I had the "brainstorm" to redesign the fuel and vent system for a XL which would allow for a fuel selector valve. I consulted with Duane Swing at the factory - who was kind enough to review the facsimiles that I sent which outlined my new and improved fuel system. Duane patiently pointed out some possible pitfalls to the design. He offered a stern warning to be very careful when changing something like this (meaning - the fuel system needs to be 100% reliable if the engine is going to stay running - if you're going to screw around (i.e.. alter the schematic or the installation) you need to be pretty sure of what you are doing - and to think through every possible situation that the change might affect. I went ahead with my improved fuel line/vent system - and later - when mimicking a ground fuel flow test to see if the system would deliver 25 gph (take off power) - I found that the fuel lines had too many curves and had too long a run to sustain this flow rate - which would have meant a partial loss of power about 2-minutes following takeoff. What a sobering discovery! Following this I removed the "new and improved" plumbing and reinstalled the system that was "in the book" - and the aircraft is operating without problem. What I'm leading to is this - it looks like someone has changed your fuel system. If you have more than one vent line sticking out under the aircraft, then it is different from the Velocity schematic. Someone obviously felt a need to "improve" the fuel/vent system - what we don't know is this really an improvement - or is it the source of your problem (as in my true story above)? As to your question as to why the low sump fuel light might come on in aircraft with the Velocity fuel schematic - in an earlier post I offered an opinion that the float switch might be culprit - causing a false signal. Have you had a chance to remove the float switch in order to test it? Is the float buoyant in avgas? Best regards,Scott B
------_=_NextPart_001_01C35480.FE45EAB0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 00:29:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:29:45 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks References: Message-ID: <025301c35496$f736d7e0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0250_01C35475.6F9EF0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, Well, I will say sometimes you have to have tough skin to contribute to = this list - but on the other hand this list is much more civil than = most! =20 I can't speak for the individual but I have talked with several folks = who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down when they put their = suggestion on the Reflector. =20 We should explain why we don't agree with someone, not shoot them down. = There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect systems. The nice thing = about homebuilts is that we get to build them pretty much the way we = want. And we get to keep improving them. That's where this list helps = us all! Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alexander Balic=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:31 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the = logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid = that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is he = "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on occasion? = Doesn't make sense to me personally- I appreciate his input (through = you) and actually might go borrow one of those devices, so good for you = for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't = want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take his ball and go home = when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- that was just a joke) as = always, ALL input is appreciated. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to the = Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members. He is = not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. As = you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have gotten = it otherwise. So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input we = can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even bad = ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!! See you at Oshkosh! Ronnie=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: (omitted at author's request) Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is used? And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon tube = to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, put = soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to do = it. =20 I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 minutes = while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the same = thing). My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it always = says the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent lines, = sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom with the = slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in the vent = and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole lot of = fuel head that we are working with. =20 I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, but = a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these loose. = The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which will help = avoid this situation. I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the reflector. = Folks should know about the leak checker available at their local Toyota = dealer. See ya Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To: romott@adelphia.net=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Testing fuel tanks Hi Ronnie, Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel = tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing = evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that = can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi = pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the = tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to = find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated = 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test = from an access port at the engine area and found that the system would = hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then = reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel pressure = sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm of = 761mmHg. That would have been hard to find without the smoke. Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a six-pack = abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home. ------=_NextPart_000_0250_01C35475.6F9EF0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alex,

Well, I will say sometimes you have to have tough = skin to=20 contribute to this list - but on the other hand this list is much = more=20 civil than most!

I can't speak for the individual but I have talked = with=20 several folks who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down when = they put=20 their suggestion on the Reflector.

We should explain why we don't agree with someone, = not shoot=20 them down. There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect = systems. The=20 nice thing about homebuilts is that we get to build them pretty much the = way we=20 want. And we get to keep improving them. That's where this = list=20 helps us all!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alexander=20 Balic
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 = 10:31=20 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: = Testing fuel=20 tanks

No=20 offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the logic = about=20 why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid that = someone will=20 chastise him for something he might say? or is he "punishing" us for a = few bad=20 comments that are posted here on occasion? Doesn't make sense to = me=20 personally- I appreciate his input (through you) and actually = might go=20 borrow one of those devices, so good for you for forwarding it to the = group,=20 and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't want to talk to the rest of us = anymore-=20 did he take his ball and go home when he was a kid? (please don't be = offended-=20 that was just a joke) as always, ALL input is = appreciated.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel=20 tanks

I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has = quit=20 writing to the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of = our=20 members.  He is not the only one that lurks and doesn't = write for=20 this very reason. As you can see, here's some great = information but=20 you wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

So watch your manners and etiquette! We = need all of=20 the input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they = can=20 be! Even bad ideas spark great discussions and information=20 exchange!!!!!

See you at Oshkosh!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Ronnie Brown=20

To: (omitted at author's request)

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM

Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks

That sounds like the trick for sure! What = kind of=20 smoke is used?

And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just = hooked a=20 3/8" nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of = air into=20 the tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took = all of 15=20 minutes to do it.

I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels = every 30=20 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do = the same=20 thing).

My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender = in it and=20 it always says the header tank is full. As it should be = with 3/8"=20 vent lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the = bottom=20 with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum = in the=20 vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a = whole lot=20 of fuel head that we are working with.

I have seen oil and water lines trap air and = impede liquid=20 flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break = these=20 loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, = which=20 will help avoid this situation.

I'm going to resend your note (without your = name) to the=20 reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available = at their=20 local Toyota dealer.

See ya

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To:=20 romott@adelphia.net
Sent: Saturday, July 26, = 2003 8:08=20 PM

Subject: Testing fuel = tanks

Hi Ronnie,

Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing = fuel=20 tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for = diagnosing=20 evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type = unit that=20 can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than = 1 psi=20 pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into = the tank=20 to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to = find a=20 fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated = 180 deg,=20 would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test = from an=20 access port at the engine area and found that the system would = hold=20 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then=20 reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel = pressure=20 sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm = of=20 761mmHg.

That would have been hard to find without the smoke.

Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a = six-pack=20 abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home.

------=_NextPart_000_0250_01C35475.6F9EF0E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 00:49:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:49:26 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Off topic; People's sensitivities References: <025301c35496$f736d7e0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <01c101c35499$b729b840$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C354ED.87F3F3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...Don't know what it is - perhaps the pressures and stresses of modern = western society - that I have noticed makes quite a number of = individuals hypersensitive to what might be construed as = criticism...albeit unintended criticism sometimes often expressed in a = vein for humorous or jocular effect. This is quite a pity, as more often than not, the spectacle that results = can be eminently entertaining making for some of the really great = moments in reading this list - a list that IS (oops! ...I'm yelling!) = relatively tame and civilised compared to some other forums that I have = chosen to leave - after observing serious "slinging" that went on. I will never forget (...I'm still wiping the tears of mirth from my = eyes!!) Milt's brief request of Scott D. asking him why he doesn't come = out and say what he really means after Scott (in his inimitable style) = bluntly analysed (in earthy language) the content of Velocity Views. = ....let there be more moments like this! So keep it light everybody, give others the space for doubt about their = intent, or the possibility that they are simply having a "bad hair day". Best from DownUnder Greg. From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:29 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks Alex, Well, I will say sometimes you have to have tough skin to contribute = to this list - but on the other hand this list is much more civil than = most! =20 I can't speak for the individual but I have talked with several folks = who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down when they put their = suggestion on the Reflector. =20 We should explain why we don't agree with someone, not shoot them = down. There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect systems. The nice = thing about homebuilts is that we get to build them pretty much the way = we want. And we get to keep improving them. That's where this list = helps us all! Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alexander Balic=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:31 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the = logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid = that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is he = "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on occasion? = Doesn't make sense to me personally- I appreciate his input (through = you) and actually might go borrow one of those devices, so good for you = for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't = want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take his ball and go home = when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- that was just a joke) as = always, ALL input is appreciated. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to the = Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members. He is = not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. As = you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have gotten = it otherwise. So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input we = can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even bad = ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!! See you at Oshkosh! Ronnie=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: (omitted at author's request) Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is used? And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon = tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, = put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to = do it. =20 I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 minutes = while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the same = thing). My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it = always says the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent = lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom = with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in = the vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole = lot of fuel head that we are working with. =20 I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, = but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these = loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which = will help avoid this situation. I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the = reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available at their = local Toyota dealer. See ya Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To: romott@adelphia.net=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Testing fuel tanks Hi Ronnie, Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel = tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing = evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that = can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi = pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the = tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to = find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated = 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test = from an access port at the engine area and found that the system would = hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then = reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel pressure = sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm of = 761mmHg. That would have been hard to find without the smoke. Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a = six-pack abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C354ED.87F3F3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
...Don't know what it = is - perhaps=20 the pressures and stresses of modern western society - that I have = noticed makes=20 quite a number of individuals hypersensitive to what might be construed = as=20 criticism...albeit unintended criticism sometimes often expressed in a = vein for=20 humorous or jocular effect.

This is quite a pity, = as more often=20 than not, the spectacle that results can be eminently entertaining = making for=20 some of the really great moments in reading this list - a = list=20 that  IS (oops! ...I'm yelling!) relatively tame and = civilised=20 compared to some other forums that I have chosen to leave - after = observing=20 serious "slinging" that went on.

I will never forget = (...I'm still=20 wiping the tears of mirth from my eyes!!) Milt's = brief request of=20 Scott D. asking him why he doesn't come out and say what he really means = after=20 Scott (in his inimitable style) bluntly analysed (in earthy = language) the=20 content of Velocity Views. ....let there be more moments like = this!

So keep it = light everybody,=20 give others the space for doubt about their intent, or = the possibility that=20 they are simply having a "bad hair day".

Best from = DownUnder

Greg.

From: Ronnie Brown

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 = 9:29 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fw: = Testing fuel=20 tanks

Alex,

Well, I will say sometimes you have to have tough = skin to=20 contribute to this list - but on the other hand this list is much = more=20 civil than most!

I can't speak for the individual but I have talked = with=20 several folks who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down = when they=20 put their suggestion on the Reflector.

We should explain why we don't agree with someone, = not shoot=20 them down. There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect = systems. The=20 nice thing about homebuilts is that we get to build them pretty much = the way=20 we want. And we get to keep improving them. That's where = this list=20 helps us all!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alexander=20 Balic
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 = 10:31=20 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: = Testing fuel=20 tanks

No=20 offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the = logic about=20 why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid that = someone will=20 chastise him for something he might say? or is he "punishing" us for = a few=20 bad comments that are posted here on occasion? Doesn't make = sense to=20 me personally- I appreciate his input (through you) and = actually might=20 go borrow one of those devices, so good for you for forwarding it to = the=20 group, and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't want to talk to the = rest of us=20 anymore- did he take his ball and go home when he was a kid? (please = don't=20 be offended- that was just a joke) as always, ALL input is=20 appreciated.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel=20 tanks

I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has = quit=20 writing to the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of = our=20 members.  He is not the only one that lurks and doesn't = write=20 for this very reason. As you can see, here's some great = information=20 but you wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

So watch your manners and etiquette! We = need all=20 of the input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as = they can=20 be! Even bad ideas spark great discussions and information=20 exchange!!!!!

See you at Oshkosh!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Ronnie=20 Brown

To: (omitted at author's request)

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM

Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks

That sounds like the trick for sure! = What kind of=20 smoke is used?

And I checked my gas caps yesterday. = Just hooked a=20 3/8" nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of = air=20 into the tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. = Took=20 all of 15 minutes to do it.

I think Don White's idea of checking fuel = levels every=20 30 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to = do the=20 same thing).

My header tank has a Westach capacitance = sender in it=20 and it always says the header tank is full. As it = should be=20 with 3/8" vent lines, sloping upwards to a common header then = vented out=20 the bottom with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - = not=20 vacuum in the vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, = there's=20 not a whole lot of fuel head that we are working with. =

I have seen oil and water lines trap air and = impede=20 liquid flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought = to=20 break these loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from = the=20 strakes, which will help avoid this situation.

I'm going to resend your note (without your = name) to the=20 reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker = available at=20 their local Toyota dealer.

See ya

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To:=20 romott@adelphia.net =
Sent: Saturday, July 26, = 2003 8:08=20 PM

Subject: Testing fuel = tanks

Hi Ronnie,

Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing = fuel=20 tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for = diagnosing=20 evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type = unit that=20 can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less = than 1 psi=20 pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke = into the=20 tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I = used it to=20 find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when = rotated=20 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a = pressure test=20 from an access port at the engine area and found that the system = would=20 hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and = then=20 reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel = pressure=20 sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond = atm of=20 761mmHg.

That would have been hard to find without the smoke.

Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a = six-pack=20 abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C354ED.87F3F3C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 01:39:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:39:23 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Off topic; People's sensitivities References: <025301c35496$f736d7e0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <01c101c35499$b729b840$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <00cd01c354a0$b0eb0a40$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C35466.0462FF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well said, Greg. =20 I personally quietly lurked on this list for a couple of years before = realizing that I have to be willing to post my thoughts plainly in order = to get the most benefit of other's information and experience. I = promise not to take offense if someone points out that I'm making a = boneheaded proposal (as long as they explain why, based on physics or = documentable experiment). If some information can help to prevent me = from repeating a known mistake, I'll be grateful if you share it with = me! =20 We should assume that everyone participating on this list wants to = produce the best aircraft they are capable of, and share whatever = information may be of use to our fellow builder/pilots. I doubt very = much that any of us are stupid, but each of us has a different set of = experiences and information, and can both contribute to and benefit from = the sharing of information and ideas.=20 Keith Hallsten ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Poole=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 4:49 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Off topic; People's sensitivities ...Don't know what it is - perhaps the pressures and stresses of = modern western society - that I have noticed makes quite a number of = individuals hypersensitive to what might be construed as = criticism...albeit unintended criticism sometimes often expressed in a = vein for humorous or jocular effect. This is quite a pity, as more often than not, the spectacle that = results can be eminently entertaining making for some of the really = great moments in reading this list - a list that IS (oops! ...I'm = yelling!) relatively tame and civilised compared to some other forums = that I have chosen to leave - after observing serious "slinging" that = went on. I will never forget (...I'm still wiping the tears of mirth from my = eyes!!) Milt's brief request of Scott D. asking him why he doesn't come = out and say what he really means after Scott (in his inimitable style) = bluntly analysed (in earthy language) the content of Velocity Views. = ....let there be more moments like this! So keep it light everybody, give others the space for doubt about = their intent, or the possibility that they are simply having a "bad hair = day". Best from DownUnder Greg. From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:29 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks Alex, Well, I will say sometimes you have to have tough skin to contribute = to this list - but on the other hand this list is much more civil than = most! =20 I can't speak for the individual but I have talked with several = folks who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down when they put = their suggestion on the Reflector. =20 We should explain why we don't agree with someone, not shoot them = down. There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect systems. The nice = thing about homebuilts is that we get to build them pretty much the way = we want. And we get to keep improving them. That's where this list = helps us all! Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alexander Balic=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:31 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand = the logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he = afraid that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is = he "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on = occasion? Doesn't make sense to me personally- I appreciate his input = (through you) and actually might go borrow one of those devices, so good = for you for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that your friend = doesn't want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take his ball and = go home when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- that was just a = joke) as always, ALL input is appreciated. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org = [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to = the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members. He = is not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. = As you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have = gotten it otherwise. So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input = we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even = bad ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!! See you at Oshkosh! Ronnie=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: (omitted at author's request) Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is = used? And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon = tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, = put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to = do it. =20 I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 = minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the = same thing). My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it = always says the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent = lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom = with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in = the vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole = lot of fuel head that we are working with. =20 I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, = but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these = loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which = will help avoid this situation. I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the = reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available at their = local Toyota dealer. See ya Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To: romott@adelphia.net=20 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Testing fuel tanks Hi Ronnie, Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing = fuel tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for = diagnosing evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge = type unit that can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with = less than 1 psi pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject = smoke into the tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other = day I used it to find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction = but when rotated 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had = performed a pressure test from an access port at the engine area and = found that the system would hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to = release the pressure and then reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car = monitoring the fuel pressure sensor and found that the tank would not = build pressure beyond atm of 761mmHg. That would have been hard to find without the smoke. Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a = six-pack abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C35466.0462FF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well said, Greg.

I personally quietly lurked on this = list for a=20 couple of years before realizing that I have to be willing to post my = thoughts=20 plainly in order to get the most benefit of other's information and=20 experience. I promise not to take offense if someone points out = that I'm=20 making a boneheaded proposal (as long as they explain why, based = on physics=20 or documentable experiment). If some information can help to = prevent me=20 from repeating a known mistake, I'll be grateful if you share it with = me! =20

We should assume that everyone = participating on=20 this list wants to produce the best aircraft they are capable of, and = share=20 whatever information may be of use to our fellow builder/pilots. I = doubt=20 very much that any of us are stupid, but each of us has a different set = of=20 experiences and information, and can both contribute to and benefit from = the=20 sharing of information and ideas.

Keith Hallsten

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg = Poole=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 = 4:49 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Off topic; = People's=20 sensitivities

...Don't know what it = is - perhaps=20 the pressures and stresses of modern western society - that I have = noticed=20 makes quite a number of individuals hypersensitive to what might be = construed=20 as criticism...albeit unintended criticism sometimes often expressed = in a vein=20 for humorous or jocular effect.

This is quite a pity, = as more often=20 than not, the spectacle that results can be eminently entertaining = making for=20 some of the really great moments in reading this list - a = list=20 that  IS (oops! ...I'm yelling!) relatively tame and = civilised=20 compared to some other forums that I have chosen to leave - after = observing=20 serious "slinging" that went on.

I will never forget = (...I'm still=20 wiping the tears of mirth from my eyes!!) Milt's = brief request of=20 Scott D. asking him why he doesn't come out and say what he really = means after=20 Scott (in his inimitable style) bluntly analysed (in earthy = language) the=20 content of Velocity Views. ....let there be more moments like=20 this!

So keep it=20 light everybody, give others the space for doubt about their = intent, or=20 the possibility that they are simply having a "bad hair=20 day".

Best from = DownUnder

Greg.

From: Ronnie Brown

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 = 9:29=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fw: = Testing fuel=20 tanks

Alex,

Well, I will say sometimes you have to have = tough skin to=20 contribute to this list - but on the other hand this list is = much more=20 civil than most!

I can't speak for the individual but I have = talked with=20 several folks who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down = when they=20 put their suggestion on the Reflector.

We should explain why we don't agree with = someone, not=20 shoot them down. There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect=20 systems. The nice thing about homebuilts is that we get to = build them=20 pretty much the way we want. And we get to keep improving = them. =20 That's where this list helps us all!

Ronnie

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Alexander=20 Balic
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 = 10:31=20 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: = Testing=20 fuel tanks

No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't = understand the=20 logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he = afraid=20 that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is = he=20 "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on=20 occasion? Doesn't make sense to me personally- I = appreciate=20 his input (through you) and actually might go borrow one of those = devices,=20 so good for you for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that = your=20 friend doesn't want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take = his=20 ball and go home when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- = that was=20 just a joke) as always, ALL input is = appreciated.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf=20 Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: = REFLECTOR:Fw:=20 Testing fuel tanks

I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who = has quit=20 writing to the Reflector because of some bad manners from some = of our=20 members.  He is not the only one that lurks and = doesn't write=20 for this very reason. As you can see, here's some great=20 information but you wouldn't have gotten it = otherwise.

So watch your manners and etiquette! = We need all=20 of the input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as = they=20 can be! Even bad ideas spark great discussions and = information=20 exchange!!!!!

See you at Oshkosh!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ronnie=20 Brown

To: (omitted at author's request)

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM

Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks

That sounds like the trick for sure! = What kind=20 of smoke is used?

And I checked my gas caps yesterday. = Just hooked=20 a 3/8" nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung = fulls of air=20 into the tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found = nothing. Took=20 all of 15 minutes to do it.

I think Don White's idea of checking fuel = levels every=20 30 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set = to do the=20 same thing).

My header tank has a Westach capacitance = sender in it=20 and it always says the header tank is full. As it = should be=20 with 3/8" vent lines, sloping upwards to a common header then = vented out=20 the bottom with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure = - not=20 vacuum in the vent and tank system. As some else = mentioned,=20 there's not a whole lot of fuel head that we are working = with. =20

I have seen oil and water lines trap air and = impede=20 liquid flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs = ought to=20 break these loose. The fuel lines should slope downward = from the=20 strakes, which will help avoid this situation.

I'm going to resend your note (without your = name) to=20 the reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker = available=20 at their local Toyota dealer.

See ya

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To:=20 romott@adelphia.net =
Sent: Saturday, July = 26, 2003=20 8:08 PM

Subject: Testing fuel = tanks

Hi Ronnie,

Been watching the continuing thread about pressure = testing fuel=20 tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for=20 diagnosing evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow = gauge=20 type unit that can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as = .010"=20 with less than 1 psi pressure. On top of that, it has the = ability to=20 inject smoke into the tank to make any leak readily apparent. = Just the=20 other day I used it to find a fuel filler cap that would seal = in one=20 direction but when rotated 180 deg, would allow pressure to = escape. I=20 had performed a pressure test from an access port at the = engine area=20 and found that the system would hold 775mmHg. I then removed = the cap=20 to release the pressure and then reinstalled the cap. I road = tested=20 the car monitoring the fuel pressure sensor and found that the = tank=20 would not build pressure beyond atm of 761mmHg.

That would have been hard to find without the = smoke.

Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a = six-pack abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester=20 home.

------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C35466.0462FF60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 03:17:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:17:41 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> <002001c3541d$4216a170$0300a8c0@DAD> <3F240B44.343D69DD@dixie-net.com> <01b101c3547b$567f4dc0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3F2487C5.8B6D5C64@dixie-net.com> --------------2877D2A66AB4B99A72644A23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ronnie, Thanks much. .72 psig doesn't sound too high. I'm thinking of blocking off the vent line and allowing the two over flow vents to pressurize the 3 tanks. I could also block off one of the over flow vents, but I think the tank pressure would get quite unbalanced during climb or descent because the tank with the vent would change pressure first. I think a single vent would work if it were teed between the two tanks AND the sump was vented to the tanks and not to the vent, but I prefer not to tackle that plumbing change if the two vents work acceptably. John Ronnie Brown wrote: > John, I don't have a data point for 150 knots but 174 knots = 20.04 > inches of water or 0.72 psig. I would be concerned about the two > different over flow vents being at the same static pressure as the > vent system. It is difficult to get a good, reliable, accurate static > pressure at 150 or 200 knots, so you have a good chance of having just > an inch or two difference between the 3 vents you have, which CAN > cause flow problems between the three tanks, especially if the central > vent system is made up of 1/4" lines as many Velocities have. By the > way, late model Cessnas only have a single forward facing vent, > because the earlier Cessnas had separate tank vents and fuel levels > would not stay the same. The single vent is tied to both tanks and > there are also one way check valves involved. Ronnie --------------2877D2A66AB4B99A72644A23 Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ronnie,
Thanks much. .72 psig doesn't sound too high. I'm thinking of blocking off the vent line and allowing the two over flow vents to pressurize the 3 tanks. I could also block off one of the over flow vents, but I think the tank pressure would get quite unbalanced during climb or descent because the tank with the vent would change pressure first. I think a single vent would work if it were teed between the two tanks AND the sump was vented to the tanks and not to the vent, but I prefer not to tackle that plumbing change if the two vents work acceptably.
John
Ronnie Brown wrote:
John, I don't have a data point for 150 knots but 174 knots = 20.04 inches of water or 0.72 psig. I would be concerned about the two different over flow vents being at the same static pressure as the vent system. It is difficult to get a good, reliable, accurate static pressure at 150 or 200 knots, so you have a good chance of having just an inch or two difference between the 3 vents you have, which CAN cause flow problems between the three tanks, especially if the central vent system is made up of 1/4" lines as many Velocities have. By the way, late model Cessnas only have a single forward facing vent, because the earlier Cessnas had separate tank vents and fuel levels would not stay the same. The single vent is tied to both tanks and there are also one way check valves involved. Ronnie
--------------2877D2A66AB4B99A72644A23-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 03:36:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:36:27 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <3F248C2B.CEEFB300@dixie-net.com> --------------53CA69F17A9F069AC68FF23F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under static conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure equal under dynamic conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If connected directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will change faster than the tanks because there is very little air space in the sump. John Chuck Jensen wrote: > John,At the risk of interpreting what you wrote, I believe you are > concuring with my earlier post; that being, if the tanks and sump were > all connected to the same vent-line (a manifold if you like), then the > pressure in both tanks and sump, by definition, must be equal. In > your case, you were proposing to vent the sump to each of the tanks, > though this might allow water/air traps, depending on configuration. > I would be more comfortable with each being vented to a collection > manifold.With a common vent manifold, it really matters little whether > the atmosphere above all the tanks/sump is slightly positive or > negative; the draw of the fuel pump will overwhelm any slight negative > pressure that could hypothetically be present. And, since fuel > responds to gravity, I would think it would dependably flow to the > sump from both tanks and the sump would always be 100% full. After > all, how could a pocket of air exist in a vented sump???(that'll start > another round!) There would be a vertical column of fuel in the sump > vent line that rises up to the equal height of the fuel in the > strakes. This fuel column would need to let any air introduced to the > sump (ie. sharp descent which uncovers the tank(s) outlet) ,pass out > the vent. Of course, if the strake outlets are uncovered and fuel is > drawn by the engine from the sump, the fuel column in the vent line > would empty into the sump. When level flight resumed, the air in the > sump would be pushed out the evacuated sump vent line by the ample > fuel flowing from both tanks. Just to be sure, if there was any > question of the ability of air to vent through a fuel filled 3/8" vent > line (and Al's earlier posting indicates there probably isn't), a 1/2" > vent line could be used instead to rise vertically from the sump to > the common vent manifold, which is connected to the other two tank > vents.And, this configuration certainly couldn't siphon from the sump > tank, as experienced by SB during his test flight (when the backward > facing sump vent drew a vacuum and started a siphon from the sump > overboard), since siphoning depends on a hi/lo differential and there > is none because all of the tanks are the same pressure. No more sump > sloshing. No more concern about a leaky fuel tank cap. No more > unbalanced tank feeds from different pressures in the tank strakes > from variation in pressurization from the vent line or leaky fuel > cap......unless the plane is unbalanced in cruised, but that's a > different problem and different post. Simple, no?Chuck --------------53CA69F17A9F069AC68FF23F Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under static conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure equal under dynamic conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If connected directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will change faster than the tanks because there is very little air space in the sump.
John
Chuck Jensen wrote:
John,At the risk of interpreting what you wrote, I believe you are concuring with my earlier post; that being, if the tanks and sump were all connected to the same vent-line (a manifold if you like), then the pressure in both tanks and sump, by definition, must be equal.   In your case, you were proposing to vent the sump to each of the tanks, though this might allow water/air traps, depending on configuration. I would be more comfortable with each being vented to a collection manifold.With a common vent manifold, it really matters little whether the atmosphere above all the tanks/sump is slightly positive or negative; the draw of the fuel pump will overwhelm any slight negative pressure that could hypothetically be present. And, since fuel responds to gravity, I would think it would dependably flow to the sump from both tanks and the sump would always be 100% full. After all, how could a pocket of air exist in a vented sump???(that'll start another round!) There would be a vertical column of fuel in the sump vent line that rises up to the equal height of the fuel in the strakes. This fuel column would need to let any air introduced to the sump (ie. sharp descent which uncovers the tank(s) outlet) ,pass out the vent. Of course, if the strake outlets are uncovered and fuel is drawn by the engine from the sump, the fuel column in the vent line would empty into the sump. When level flight resumed, the air in the sump would be pushed out the evacuated sump vent line by the ample fuel flowing from both tanks. Just to be sure, if there was any question of the ability of air to vent through a fuel filled 3/8" vent line (and Al's earlier posting indicates there probably isn't), a 1/2" vent line could be used instead to rise vertically from the sump to the common vent manifold, which is connected to the other two tank vents.And, this configuration certainly couldn't siphon from the sump tank, as experienced by SB during his test flight (when the backward facing sump vent drew a vacuum and started a siphon from the sump overboard), since siphoning depends on a hi/lo differential and there is none because all of the tanks are the same pressure. No more sump sloshing. No more concern about a leaky fuel tank cap. No more unbalanced tank feeds from different pressures in the tank strakes from variation in pressurization from the vent line or leaky fuel cap......unless the plane is unbalanced in cruised, but that's a different problem and different post. Simple, no?Chuck
--------------53CA69F17A9F069AC68FF23F-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 05:06:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:06:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: REFLECTOR attitude In-Reply-To: <025301c35496$f736d7e0$bd404744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_1/KYn1DeaJ5F/YNjLdGYdw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ronnie, I agree with you there, I don't appreciate the berating that goes on here (occasionally) but it wont stop me from contributing, it would be better of course to explain about why someone disagrees, instead of the name calling ect.... because if everyone did the same thing as your friend, then there would be not exchange of the valuable information that I believe this list provides. So hope we all can get back to basics and contribute to this list without the BS...... Alex PS And you are right the reflector is much more civilized than most - some lists are so full of arguments, name calling, and other useless garbage, that they are almost completely worthless. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 5:30 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks Alex, Well, I will say sometimes you have to have tough skin to contribute to this list - but on the other hand this list is much more civil than most! I can't speak for the individual but I have talked with several folks who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down when they put their suggestion on the Reflector. We should explain why we don't agree with someone, not shoot them down. There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect systems. The nice thing about homebuilts is that we get to build them pretty much the way we want. And we get to keep improving them. That's where this list helps us all! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Balic To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:31 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is he "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on occasion? Doesn't make sense to me personally- I appreciate his input (through you) and actually might go borrow one of those devices, so good for you for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take his ball and go home when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- that was just a joke) as always, ALL input is appreciated. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members. He is not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. As you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even bad ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!! See you at Oshkosh! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: (omitted at author's request) Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is used? And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to do it. I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the same thing). My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it always says the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in the vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole lot of fuel head that we are working with. I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which will help avoid this situation. I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available at their local Toyota dealer. See ya Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST To: romott@adelphia.net Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Testing fuel tanks Hi Ronnie, Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test from an access port at the engine area and found that the system would hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel pressure sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm of 761mmHg. That would have been hard to find without the smoke. Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a six-pack abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home. --Boundary_(ID_1/KYn1DeaJ5F/YNjLdGYdw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Ronnie,

I agree with you there, I don't appreciate the berating that goes on here (occasionally) but it wont stop me from contributing, it would be better of course to explain about why someone disagrees, instead of the name calling ect.... because if everyone did the same thing as your friend, then there would be not exchange of the valuable information that I believe this list provides. So hope we all can get back to basics and contribute to this list without the BS......

Alex

PS And you are right the reflector is much more civilized than most - some lists are so full of arguments, name calling, and other useless garbage, that they are almost completely worthless.

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 5:30 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks

Alex,

Well, I will say sometimes you have to have tough skin to contribute to this list - but on the other hand this list is much more civil than most!

I can't speak for the individual but I have talked with several folks who felt belittled, berated, and generally shot down when they put their suggestion on the Reflector.

We should explain why we don't agree with someone, not shoot them down. There are NO perfect airplanes nor perfect systems. The nice thing about homebuilts is that we get to build them pretty much the way we want. And we get to keep improving them. That's where this list helps us all!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Balic

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:31 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks

No offense to you Ronnie or your friend, but I don't understand the logic about why he doesn't want to post on the reflector- is he afraid that someone will chastise him for something he might say? or is he "punishing" us for a few bad comments that are posted here on occasion? Doesn't make sense to me personally- I appreciate his input (through you) and actually might go borrow one of those devices, so good for you for forwarding it to the group, and I'm sorry that your friend doesn't want to talk to the rest of us anymore- did he take his ball and go home when he was a kid? (please don't be offended- that was just a joke) as always, ALL input is appreciated.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 8:10 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fw: Testing fuel tanks

I'm forwarding this note from a lurker who has quit writing to the Reflector because of some bad manners from some of our members.  He is not the only one that lurks and doesn't write for this very reason. As you can see, here's some great information but you wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

So watch your manners and etiquette! We need all of the input we can get to make our V's as safe and enjoyable as they can be! Even bad ideas spark great discussions and information exchange!!!!!

See you at Oshkosh!

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From: Ronnie Brown

To: (omitted at author's request)

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:03 AM

Subject: Re: Testing fuel tanks

That sounds like the trick for sure! What kind of smoke is used?

And I checked my gas caps yesterday. Just hooked a 3/8" nylon tube to the vent, unloaded about 3-4 lung fulls of air into the tanks, put soap suds on the caps and found nothing. Took all of 15 minutes to do it.

I think Don White's idea of checking fuel levels every 30 minutes while in flight is a super idea (I have a timer set to do the same thing).

My header tank has a Westach capacitance sender in it and it always says the header tank is full. As it should be with 3/8" vent lines, sloping upwards to a common header then vented out the bottom with the slash cut toward the front to build pressure - not vacuum in the vent and tank system. As some else mentioned, there's not a whole lot of fuel head that we are working with.

I have seen oil and water lines trap air and impede liquid flow, but a few bumps or some alternate rudder inputs ought to break these loose. The fuel lines should slope downward from the strakes, which will help avoid this situation.

I'm going to resend your note (without your name) to the reflector. Folks should know about the leak checker available at their local Toyota dealer.

See ya

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----

From: DELETED BY AUTHOR'S REQUEST

To: romott@adelphia.net

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 8:08 PM

Subject: Testing fuel tanks

Hi Ronnie,

Been watching the continuing thread about pressure testing fuel tanks. Down at the Toyota dealership, we have a neat tool for diagnosing evaporative fuel system leaks in cars. It is a flow gauge type unit that can be calibrated to sense a leak as small as .010" with less than 1 psi pressure. On top of that, it has the ability to inject smoke into the tank to make any leak readily apparent. Just the other day I used it to find a fuel filler cap that would seal in one direction but when rotated 180 deg, would allow pressure to escape. I had performed a pressure test from an access port at the engine area and found that the system would hold 775mmHg. I then removed the cap to release the pressure and then reinstalled the cap. I road tested the car monitoring the fuel pressure sensor and found that the tank would not build pressure beyond atm of 761mmHg.

That would have been hard to find without the smoke.

Maybe some of the builders could suck up to a tech with a six-pack abd get their neighborhood wrench to bring a tester home.

--Boundary_(ID_1/KYn1DeaJ5F/YNjLdGYdw)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 07:33:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Larry Richter) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:33:23 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <3F248C2B.CEEFB300@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F24C3B3.9030803@topguns.tv> Folks: Okay, I lurk too. I have been building for a long time (forever?) but do have plans to finish it (before I die of old age). My flying plane is a 1948 Bonanza with Flight Extender tip tanks installed in 1961. I've been flying her since 1984. This system uses no transfer pumps . There is a vent line consisting of a little tube extending down into the slip stream cut off at an angle with the bevel forward and a small hole on back side of tube ( to allow some venting if the the front ices over- so I have been told). This tube opens into the top of the tank. (Main tanks have similar vents). About 1/3 of the tip fuel is actually below the level of the fuel line in level flight with the line going out to the tip tank inside the wing and then down into the bottom of the tank. This system has a check valve in each fuel line from the tip tanks preventing fuel from porting/venting in the wrong direction. I have done all kinds of experiments over the years to try to get the tip tanks to unport or malfunction. To explain all of these would make this email very long. Suffice it to say, it has been totally reliable. Proper (but very simple) maintainance is mandatory to keep it working as the tip gas caps cannot leak and the vents must be open and working. (My wife occasionally sees me kiss the tip tanks--blow into the vent, feel the tank pressurize, and blow back at you when you let go). Newer "improved" versions of this system (Beryl'D Shannon is the latest) used various transfer pumps to eliminate problems that do occur if the old system isn't maintained. These systems become maintainance nightmares as they age and fail and end up in junk yards. They can also give you little thrill if you are careless and end up with 90lbs of fuel in one wing tip only to find out (too late) that the transfer pump on that side has failed. The only $ maintainance I have had to do was replace the O-rings in the check valves 10 years ago when I discovered that they weren't "checking" after most of the tip fuel ended up on the ground after parking overnight on a slope with one wing higher. And I had to replace the tip gas caps after a certified mechanic "cleaned up them thar oily old gas caps n dried um out real nice". Want to ask me again why I am building my own airplane? Sooo, My Velocity has vent lines as per (my) manual with main tanks and sump vented to a common manifold on the front of the firewall. I used 3/8 inch lines. When I saw discussions regarding fuel sucking out of leaking gas caps and draining the sump and opposite tank, I looked at my 50+ year old reliable lady and added the check valve to the lines from the main tanks to the sump. It seems to my simple mind that this should be equally reliable. The check valve would obviously cause a problem if you expect fuel/air to go "backward" from sump to main tank. larry richter John Dibble wrote: > Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under static > conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure equal under dynamic > conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If connected > directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will change faster than > the tanks because there is very little air space in the sump. > > John > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 14:02:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:02:59 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35508.92275540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" John, It's agreed that the sump would react with more gain than the tanks but there are probably a couple factors going on here that would mitigate that factor. 1st, any change is so slow, that if the vent system has decent sized lines (1/4" may be too small) that our rate of descent/climb is really pretty subtle change rate. Unless, of course, you're going to rolling over on your back and going into a vertical dive for a strafing or high speed bombing run. You know, the more a person flies, the more that I'm astounded at the piloting skills of our Air Force pilots. Mind-boggling, and some of them are just past being teenagers; but a little off subject. And, 2nd, there really shouldn't be any air space in the sump, if it's properly vent to a static condition with the tanks, and so it may not make a difference that the change-rate for the sump is slightly different than the mains. All these nice things people were posting about mutual respect, understanding and sensitivity, heck, it made me want to go hug somebody!! Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John Dibble Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:36 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under static conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure equal under dynamic conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If connected directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will change faster than the tanks because there is very little air space in the sump. John Chuck Jensen wrote: John,At the risk of interpreting what you wrote, I believe you are concuring with my earlier post; that being, if the tanks and sump were all connected to the same vent-line (a manifold if you like), then the pressure in both tanks and sump, by definition, must be equal. In your case, you were proposing to vent the sump to each of the tanks, though this might allow water/air traps, depending on configuration. I would be more comfortable with each being vented to a collection manifold.With a common vent manifold, it really matters little whether the atmosphere above all the tanks/sump is slightly positive or negative; the draw of the fuel pump will overwhelm any slight negative pressure that could hypothetically be present. And, since fuel responds to gravity, I would think it would dependably flow to the sump from both tanks and the sump would always be 100% full. After all, how could a pocket of air exist in a vented sump???(that'll start another round!) There would be a vertical column of fuel in the sump vent line that rises up to the equal height of the fuel in the strakes. This fuel column would need to let any air introduced to the sump (ie. sharp descent which uncovers the tank(s) outlet) ,pass out the vent. Of course, if the strake outlets are uncovered and fuel is drawn by the engine from the sump, the fuel column in the vent line would empty into the sump. When level flight resumed, the air in the sump would be pushed out the evacuated sump vent line by the ample fuel flowing from both tanks. Just to be sure, if there was any question of the ability of air to vent through a fuel filled 3/8" vent line (and Al's earlier posting indicates there probably isn't), a 1/2" vent line could be used instead to rise vertically from the sump to the common vent manifold, which is connected to the other two tank vents.And, this configuration certainly couldn't siphon from the sump tank, as experienced by SB during his test flight (when the backward facing sump vent drew a vacuum and started a siphon from the sump overboard), since siphoning depends on a hi/lo differential and there is none because all of the tanks are the same pressure. No more sump sloshing. No more concern about a leaky fuel tank cap. No more unbalanced tank feeds from different pressures in the tank strakes from variation in pressurization from the vent line or leaky fuel cap......unless the plane is unbalanced in cruised, but that's a different problem and different post. Simple, no?Chuck ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35508.92275540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r"
John,

It's agreed that the sump would react with more gain than the tanks but there are probably a couple factors going on here that would mitigate that factor. 1st, any change is so slow, that if the vent system has decent sized lines (1/4" may be too small) that our rate of descent/climb is really pretty subtle change rate.

Unless, of course, you're going to rolling over on your back and going into a vertical dive for a strafing or high speed bombing run. You know, the more a person flies, the more that I'm astounded at the piloting skills of our Air Force pilots. Mind-boggling, and some of them are just past being teenagers; but a little off subject.

And, 2nd, there really shouldn't be any air space in the sump, if it's properly vent to a static condition with the tanks, and so it may not make a difference that the change-rate for the sump is slightly different than the mains.

All these nice things people were posting about mutual respect, understanding and sensitivity, heck, it made me want to go hug somebody!!

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John Dibble
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:36 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under static conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure equal under dynamic conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If connected directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will change faster than the tanks because there is very little air space in the sump.
John
Chuck Jensen wrote:
John,At the risk of interpreting what you wrote, I believe you are concuring with my earlier post; that being, if the tanks and sump were all connected to the same vent-line (a manifold if you like), then the pressure in both tanks and sump, by definition, must be equal.   In your case, you were proposing to vent the sump to each of the tanks, though this might allow water/air traps, depending on configuration. I would be more comfortable with each being vented to a collection manifold.With a common vent manifold, it really matters little whether the atmosphere above all the tanks/sump is slightly positive or negative; the draw of the fuel pump will overwhelm any slight negative pressure that could hypothetically be present. And, since fuel responds to gravity, I would think it would dependably flow to the sump from both tanks and the sump would always be 100% full. After all, how could a pocket of air exist in a vented sump???(that'll start another round!) There would be a vertical column of fuel in the sump vent line that rises up to the equal height of the fuel in the strakes. This fuel column would need to let any air introduced to the sump (ie. sharp descent which uncovers the tank(s) outlet) ,pass out the vent. Of course, if the strake outlets are uncovered and fuel is drawn by the engine from the sump, the fuel column in the vent line would empty into the sump. When level flight resumed, the air in the sump would be pushed out the evacuated sump vent line by the ample fuel flowing from both tanks. Just to be sure, if there was any question of the ability of air to vent through a fuel filled 3/8" vent line (and Al's earlier posting indicates there probably isn't), a 1/2" vent line could be used instead to rise vertically from the sump to the common vent manifold, which is connected to the other two tank vents.And, this configuration certainly couldn't siphon from the sump tank, as experienced by SB during his test flight (when the backward facing sump vent drew a vacuum and started a siphon from the sump overboard), since siphoning depends on a hi/lo differential and there is none because all of the tanks are the same pressure. No more sump sloshing. No more concern about a leaky fuel tank cap. No more unbalanced tank feeds from different pressures in the tank strakes from variation in pressurization from the vent line or leaky fuel cap......unless the plane is unbalanced in cruised, but that's a different problem and different post. Simple, no?Chuck
------_=_NextPart_001_01C35508.92275540-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 14:45:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:45:17 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves In-Reply-To: <3F24C3B3.9030803@topguns.tv> Message-ID: I was thinking of this also- about using check valves in the lines from the mains to the sump to keep the fuel always moving in the correct direction- anyone else done this? any other comments on why is a good/bad idea? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Larry Richter Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:33 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Folks: Okay, I lurk too. I have been building for a long time (forever?) but do have plans to finish it (before I die of old age). My flying plane is a 1948 Bonanza with Flight Extender tip tanks installed in 1961. I've been flying her since 1984. This system uses no transfer pumps . There is a vent line consisting of a little tube extending down into the slip stream cut off at an angle with the bevel forward and a small hole on back side of tube ( to allow some venting if the the front ices over- so I have been told). This tube opens into the top of the tank. (Main tanks have similar vents). About 1/3 of the tip fuel is actually below the level of the fuel line in level flight with the line going out to the tip tank inside the wing and then down into the bottom of the tank. This system has a check valve in each fuel line from the tip tanks preventing fuel from porting/venting in the wrong direction. I have done all kinds of experiments over the years to try to get the tip tanks to unport or malfunction. To explain all of these would make this email very long. Suffice it to say, it has been totally reliable. Proper (but very simple) maintainance is mandatory to keep it working as the tip gas caps cannot leak and the vents must be open and working. (My wife occasionally sees me kiss the tip tanks--blow into the vent, feel the tank pressurize, and blow back at you when you let go). Newer "improved" versions of this system (Beryl'D Shannon is the latest) used various transfer pumps to eliminate problems that do occur if the old system isn't maintained. These systems become maintainance nightmares as they age and fail and end up in junk yards. They can also give you little thrill if you are careless and end up with 90lbs of fuel in one wing tip only to find out (too late) that the transfer pump on that side has failed. The only $ maintainance I have had to do was replace the O-rings in the check valves 10 years ago when I discovered that they weren't "checking" after most of the tip fuel ended up on the ground after parking overnight on a slope with one wing higher. And I had to replace the tip gas caps after a certified mechanic "cleaned up them thar oily old gas caps n dried um out real nice". Want to ask me again why I am building my own airplane? Sooo, My Velocity has vent lines as per (my) manual with main tanks and sump vented to a common manifold on the front of the firewall. I used 3/8 inch lines. When I saw discussions regarding fuel sucking out of leaking gas caps and draining the sump and opposite tank, I looked at my 50+ year old reliable lady and added the check valve to the lines from the main tanks to the sump. It seems to my simple mind that this should be equally reliable. The check valve would obviously cause a problem if you expect fuel/air to go "backward" from sump to main tank. larry richter John Dibble wrote: > Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under static > conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure equal under dynamic > conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If connected > directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will change faster than > the tanks because there is very little air space in the sump. > > John > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 15:10:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 07:10:07 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1059401407.3f252ebf9da77@webmail.123mail.net> I'll bite. Although it *should* be OK, all thinngs being equal, I think it's a bad idea because all things are never equal. There are a lot of ways the tanks might get out of balance, and with open lines they can rebalance themselves and avoid a lot of trimming. I think in the example of the tip tanks, they're meant to be able to be completely drained, and you wouldn't want them refilling in a steep (uncoordinated) turn. You shouldn't routinely have the strakes running dry, and even if you get a little undesirable cross flow, the moment arm isn't as big a concern as with a tip tank. Brett Quoting Alexander Balic : > I was thinking of this also- about using check valves > in the lines from the > mains to the sump to keep the fuel always moving in > the correct direction- > anyone else done this? any other comments on why is a > good/bad idea? > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of > Larry Richter > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:33 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Folks: > Okay, I lurk too. I have been building for a long > time (forever?) > but do have plans to finish it (before I die of old > age). > > My flying plane is a 1948 Bonanza with Flight Extender > tip tanks > installed in 1961. I've been flying her since 1984. > This system uses > no transfer pumps . There is a vent line consisting > of a little tube > extending down into the slip stream cut off at an > angle with the bevel > forward and a small hole on back side of tube ( to > allow some venting if > the the front ices over- so I have been told). This > tube opens into the > top of the tank. (Main tanks have similar vents). > About 1/3 of the tip > fuel is actually below the level of the fuel line in > level flight with > the line going out to the tip tank inside the wing and > then down into > the bottom of the tank. This system has a check valve > in each fuel line > from the tip tanks preventing fuel from > porting/venting in the wrong > direction. I have done all kinds of experiments over > the years to try > to get the tip tanks to unport or malfunction. To > explain all of these > would make this email very long. Suffice it to say, > it has been > totally reliable. Proper (but very simple) > maintainance is mandatory > to keep it working as the tip gas caps cannot leak and > the vents must > be open and working. (My wife occasionally sees me > kiss the tip > tanks--blow into the vent, feel the tank pressurize, > and blow back at > you when you let go). Newer "improved" versions of > this system > (Beryl'D Shannon is the latest) used various transfer > pumps to eliminate > problems that do occur if the old system isn't > maintained. These > systems become maintainance nightmares as they age and > fail and end up > in junk yards. They can also give you little thrill > if you are careless > and end up with 90lbs of fuel in one wing tip only to > find out (too > late) that the transfer pump on that side has failed. > The only $ > maintainance I have had to do was replace the O-rings > in the check > valves 10 years ago when I discovered that they > weren't "checking" after > most of the tip fuel ended up on the ground after > parking overnight on a > slope with one wing higher. And I had to replace the > tip gas caps after > a certified mechanic "cleaned up them thar oily old > gas caps n dried um > out real nice". Want to ask me again why I am > building my own airplane? > > Sooo, > My Velocity has vent lines as per (my) manual with > main tanks and > sump vented to a common manifold on the front of the > firewall. I used > 3/8 inch lines. When I saw discussions regarding fuel > sucking out of > leaking gas caps and draining the sump and opposite > tank, I looked at my > 50+ year old reliable lady and added the check valve > to the lines from > the main tanks to the sump. It seems to my simple > mind that this should > be equally reliable. The check valve would obviously > cause a problem if > you expect fuel/air to go "backward" from sump to main > tank. > > larry richter > > John Dibble wrote: > > > Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under > static > > conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure > equal under dynamic > > conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If > connected > > directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will > change faster than > > the tanks because there is very little air space in > the sump. > > > > John > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 15:11:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:11:01 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? In-Reply-To: <00a901c3524f$8106b3e0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_jyZeD2zphLWko4yXb2298A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Keith, Thanks for the info- I ordered one of those filters, looks a lot easier to change the element than the flow through type- as for fuel shut off valve- Summit Racing sells them with the AN fittings on them I got one, and it is well built - mounted us just after the sump tank, and it activates with a 90 degree pull on the handle- so I have connected it to a pull cable- it already has a small hole in the arm to attach the cable to it with a z bend so it is really designed for this application Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of KeithHallsten Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:53 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? Mack, No argument here. I'm considering a racing-type fuel filter (see, for example, www.pegasusautoracing.com/pdfs/061.pdf, in the lower left corner). The example filter is good for 90 gallons/hour "with minimal pressure drop". It has an aluminum housing that is installed into the fuel system with AN fittings. The fuel enters the bottom, and exits the side; the filter element is replaced by unbolting the top, lifting out the old element, and dropping in the new element. I like the concept that no disconnection of the fuel lines is required to replace the element. It seems like this would provide some chance of less fuel spill in the back of the cabin during filter replacement. Does anyone have experience with this type of filter? Tell me about it! Anyone have a better idea? Tell me about that! Also, what are folks using for the fuel shut-off valve? Make, model & source of supply? Any photos or installation suggestions? Keith Hallsten, XLFG ----- Original Message ----- From: MMurp16900@aol.com To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? Hi John In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off valve and transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the fuel sump We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked often. During the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust. Mack --Boundary_(ID_jyZeD2zphLWko4yXb2298A) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Keith,

Thanks for the info- I ordered one of those filters, looks a lot easier to change the element than the flow through type- as for fuel shut off valve- Summit Racing sells them with the AN fittings on them I got one, and it is well built - mounted us just after the sump tank, and it activates with a 90 degree pull on the handle- so I have connected it to a pull cable- it already has a small hole in the arm to attach the cable to it with a z bend so it is really designed for this application

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of KeithHallsten
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:53 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter?

Mack, No argument here.

I'm considering a racing-type fuel filter (see, for example, www.pegasusautoracing.com/pdfs/061.pdf, in the lower left corner). The example filter is good for 90 gallons/hour "with minimal pressure drop". It has an aluminum housing that is installed into the fuel system with AN fittings. The fuel enters the bottom, and exits the side; the filter element is replaced by unbolting the top, lifting out the old element, and dropping in the new element. I like the concept that no disconnection of the fuel lines is required to replace the element. It seems like this would provide some chance of less fuel spill in the back of the cabin during filter replacement.

Does anyone have experience with this type of filter? Tell me about it! Anyone have a better idea? Tell me about that!

Also, what are folks using for the fuel shut-off valve? Make, model & source of supply? Any photos or installation suggestions?

Keith Hallsten, XLFG



----- Original Message -----

From: MMurp16900@aol.com

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:14 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter?

Hi John
In my opinion every composite aircraft should have a fuel shut off valve and
transparent fuel filter They should be mounted at the outlet of the fuel sump We installed two filters in parallel. They should be checked often. During the first 25 hours we had a lot of fiber glass dust.
Mack
--Boundary_(ID_jyZeD2zphLWko4yXb2298A)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 15:56:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:56:53 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves Message-ID: Another thing about check valves. They seem to always work perfectly when being tested and fail when you rely on them. It's just another "thing" that can break or malfunction. What's particularly bad about them, is there is not indication of failure. And testing them is arduous in most installations. Unless they are deemed essential, the parts shelf is a good place for them. IMHO. chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves I'll bite. Although it *should* be OK, all thinngs being equal, I think it's a bad idea because all things are never equal. There are a lot of ways the tanks might get out of balance, and with open lines they can rebalance themselves and avoid a lot of trimming. I think in the example of the tip tanks, they're meant to be able to be completely drained, and you wouldn't want them refilling in a steep (uncoordinated) turn. You shouldn't routinely have the strakes running dry, and even if you get a little undesirable cross flow, the moment arm isn't as big a concern as with a tip tank. Brett Quoting Alexander Balic : > I was thinking of this also- about using check valves > in the lines from the > mains to the sump to keep the fuel always moving in > the correct direction- > anyone else done this? any other comments on why is a > good/bad idea? > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of > Larry Richter > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:33 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Folks: > Okay, I lurk too. I have been building for a long > time (forever?) > but do have plans to finish it (before I die of old > age). > > My flying plane is a 1948 Bonanza with Flight Extender > tip tanks > installed in 1961. I've been flying her since 1984. > This system uses > no transfer pumps . There is a vent line consisting > of a little tube > extending down into the slip stream cut off at an > angle with the bevel > forward and a small hole on back side of tube ( to > allow some venting if > the the front ices over- so I have been told). This > tube opens into the > top of the tank. (Main tanks have similar vents). > About 1/3 of the tip > fuel is actually below the level of the fuel line in > level flight with > the line going out to the tip tank inside the wing and > then down into > the bottom of the tank. This system has a check valve > in each fuel line > from the tip tanks preventing fuel from > porting/venting in the wrong > direction. I have done all kinds of experiments over > the years to try > to get the tip tanks to unport or malfunction. To > explain all of these > would make this email very long. Suffice it to say, > it has been > totally reliable. Proper (but very simple) > maintainance is mandatory > to keep it working as the tip gas caps cannot leak and > the vents must > be open and working. (My wife occasionally sees me > kiss the tip > tanks--blow into the vent, feel the tank pressurize, > and blow back at > you when you let go). Newer "improved" versions of > this system > (Beryl'D Shannon is the latest) used various transfer > pumps to eliminate > problems that do occur if the old system isn't > maintained. These > systems become maintainance nightmares as they age and > fail and end up > in junk yards. They can also give you little thrill > if you are careless > and end up with 90lbs of fuel in one wing tip only to > find out (too > late) that the transfer pump on that side has failed. > The only $ > maintainance I have had to do was replace the O-rings > in the check > valves 10 years ago when I discovered that they > weren't "checking" after > most of the tip fuel ended up on the ground after > parking overnight on a > slope with one wing higher. And I had to replace the > tip gas caps after > a certified mechanic "cleaned up them thar oily old > gas caps n dried um > out real nice". Want to ask me again why I am > building my own airplane? > > Sooo, > My Velocity has vent lines as per (my) manual with > main tanks and > sump vented to a common manifold on the front of the > firewall. I used > 3/8 inch lines. When I saw discussions regarding fuel > sucking out of > leaking gas caps and draining the sump and opposite > tank, I looked at my > 50+ year old reliable lady and added the check valve > to the lines from > the main tanks to the sump. It seems to my simple > mind that this should > be equally reliable. The check valve would obviously > cause a problem if > you expect fuel/air to go "backward" from sump to main > tank. > > larry richter > > John Dibble wrote: > > > Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under > static > > conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure > equal under dynamic > > conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If > connected > > directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will > change faster than > > the tanks because there is very little air space in > the sump. > > > > John > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 15:27:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:27:22 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves In-Reply-To: <1059401407.3f252ebf9da77@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: Yea, I'm thinking that only IF I have some problem, I can easily go back and install them anyway- I'll use the KISS principal in this one......... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves I'll bite. Although it *should* be OK, all thinngs being equal, I think it's a bad idea because all things are never equal. There are a lot of ways the tanks might get out of balance, and with open lines they can rebalance themselves and avoid a lot of trimming. I think in the example of the tip tanks, they're meant to be able to be completely drained, and you wouldn't want them refilling in a steep (uncoordinated) turn. You shouldn't routinely have the strakes running dry, and even if you get a little undesirable cross flow, the moment arm isn't as big a concern as with a tip tank. Brett Quoting Alexander Balic : > I was thinking of this also- about using check valves > in the lines from the > mains to the sump to keep the fuel always moving in > the correct direction- > anyone else done this? any other comments on why is a > good/bad idea? > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of > Larry Richter > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:33 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > > > Folks: > Okay, I lurk too. I have been building for a long > time (forever?) > but do have plans to finish it (before I die of old > age). > > My flying plane is a 1948 Bonanza with Flight Extender > tip tanks > installed in 1961. I've been flying her since 1984. > This system uses > no transfer pumps . There is a vent line consisting > of a little tube > extending down into the slip stream cut off at an > angle with the bevel > forward and a small hole on back side of tube ( to > allow some venting if > the the front ices over- so I have been told). This > tube opens into the > top of the tank. (Main tanks have similar vents). > About 1/3 of the tip > fuel is actually below the level of the fuel line in > level flight with > the line going out to the tip tank inside the wing and > then down into > the bottom of the tank. This system has a check valve > in each fuel line > from the tip tanks preventing fuel from > porting/venting in the wrong > direction. I have done all kinds of experiments over > the years to try > to get the tip tanks to unport or malfunction. To > explain all of these > would make this email very long. Suffice it to say, > it has been > totally reliable. Proper (but very simple) > maintainance is mandatory > to keep it working as the tip gas caps cannot leak and > the vents must > be open and working. (My wife occasionally sees me > kiss the tip > tanks--blow into the vent, feel the tank pressurize, > and blow back at > you when you let go). Newer "improved" versions of > this system > (Beryl'D Shannon is the latest) used various transfer > pumps to eliminate > problems that do occur if the old system isn't > maintained. These > systems become maintainance nightmares as they age and > fail and end up > in junk yards. They can also give you little thrill > if you are careless > and end up with 90lbs of fuel in one wing tip only to > find out (too > late) that the transfer pump on that side has failed. > The only $ > maintainance I have had to do was replace the O-rings > in the check > valves 10 years ago when I discovered that they > weren't "checking" after > most of the tip fuel ended up on the ground after > parking overnight on a > slope with one wing higher. And I had to replace the > tip gas caps after > a certified mechanic "cleaned up them thar oily old > gas caps n dried um > out real nice". Want to ask me again why I am > building my own airplane? > > Sooo, > My Velocity has vent lines as per (my) manual with > main tanks and > sump vented to a common manifold on the front of the > firewall. I used > 3/8 inch lines. When I saw discussions regarding fuel > sucking out of > leaking gas caps and draining the sump and opposite > tank, I looked at my > 50+ year old reliable lady and added the check valve > to the lines from > the main tanks to the sump. It seems to my simple > mind that this should > be equally reliable. The check valve would obviously > cause a problem if > you expect fuel/air to go "backward" from sump to main > tank. > > larry richter > > John Dibble wrote: > > > Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under > static > > conditions. The problem is keeping the pressure > equal under dynamic > > conditions like climb, descent, and leaking caps. If > connected > > directly to the manifold, the sump pressure will > change faster than > > the tanks because there is very little air space in > the sump. > > > > John > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 15:31:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:31:19 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <3F248C2B.CEEFB300@dixie-net.com> References: <3F248C2B.CEEFB300@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <3F2533B7.4040805@tnstaafl.net> I think you guys are fixing something that ain't broke. But as long as you have the time go for it. Scott John Dibble wrote: > Yes, I agree that the pressure will be equal, under static conditions. > The problem is keeping the pressure equal under dynamic conditions like > climb, descent, and leaking caps. If connected directly to the manifold, > the sump pressure will change faster than the tanks because there is > very little air space in the sump. > > John > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > >> John,At the risk of interpreting what you wrote, I believe you are >> concuring with my earlier post; that being, if the tanks and sump were >> all connected to the same vent-line (a manifold if you like), then the >> pressure in both tanks and sump, by definition, must be equal. In >> your case, you were proposing to vent the sump to each of the tanks, >> though this might allow water/air traps, depending on configuration. >> I would be more comfortable with each being vented to a collection >> manifold.With a common vent manifold, it really matters little whether >> the atmosphere above all the tanks/sump is slightly positive or >> negative; the draw of the fuel pump will overwhelm any slight negative >> pressure that could hypothetically be present. And, since fuel >> responds to gravity, I would think it would dependably flow to the >> sump from both tanks and the sump would always be 100% full. After >> all, how could a pocket of air exist in a vented sump???(that'll start >> another round!) There would be a vertical column of fuel in the sump >> vent line that rises up to the equal height of the fuel in the >> strakes. This fuel column would need to let any air introduced to the >> sump (ie. sharp descent which uncovers the tank(s) outlet) ,pass out >> the vent. Of course, if the strake outlets are uncovered and fuel is >> drawn by the engine from the sump, the fuel column in the vent line >> would empty into the sump. When level flight resumed, the air in the >> sump would be pushed out the evacuated sump vent line by the ample >> fuel flowing from both tanks. Just to be sure, if there was any >> question of the ability of air to vent through a fuel filled 3/8" vent >> line (and Al's earlier posting indicates there probably isn't), a 1/2" >> vent line could be used instead to rise vertically from the sump to >> the common vent manifold, which is connected to the other two tank >> vents.And, this configuration certainly couldn't siphon from the sump >> tank, as experienced by SB during his test flight (when the backward >> facing sump vent drew a vacuum and started a siphon from the sump >> overboard), since siphoning depends on a hi/lo differential and there >> is none because all of the tanks are the same pressure. No more sump >> sloshing. No more concern about a leaky fuel tank cap. No more >> unbalanced tank feeds from different pressures in the tank strakes >> from variation in pressurization from the vent line or leaky fuel >> cap......unless the plane is unbalanced in cruised, but that's a >> different problem and different post. Simple, no?Chuck > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 16:03:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:03:11 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <3F253B2F.116DBF02@dixie-net.com> --------------AEFB9FCBAEF433354313B81A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Jensen wrote: > John,It's agreed that the sump would react with more gain than the > tanks but there are probably a couple factors going on here that would > mitigate that factor. 1st, any change is so slow, that if the vent > system has decent sized lines (1/4" may be too small) that our rate of > descent/climb is really pretty subtle change rate. > > I don't know, at low altitude the outside pressure changes 0.25 > psi/500 ft. A 0.026 psi difference in tank/sump pressure will change > the sump fuel level by 1". The question is - How quickly will the > vent system transfer air to an nearly empty tank. Has anyone ever > pressurized their empty tank and measured the time it takes for the > pressure to go to zero? > > Unless, of course, you're going to rolling over on your back and going > into a vertical dive for a strafing or high speed bombing run. You > know, the more a person flies, the more that I'm astounded at the > piloting skills of our Air Force pilots. Mind-boggling, and some of > them are just past being teenagers; but a little off subject.And, 2nd, > there really shouldn't be any air space in the sump, if it's properly > vent to a static condition with the tanks, and so it may not make a > difference that the change-rate for the sump is slightly different > than the mains. > > I agree that there shouldn't be any air space in the sump under static > pressure conditions, and in this case the pressure change rate for the > sump is instantaneous so it makes the biggest difference. > All these nice things people were posting about mutual respect, > understanding and sensitivity, heck, it made me want to go hug > somebody!! > > Sorry, Chuck, you're not my type. > > John > > Chuck --------------AEFB9FCBAEF433354313B81A Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Jensen wrote:
John,It's agreed that the sump would react with more gain than the tanks but there are probably a couple factors going on here that would mitigate that factor. 1st, any change is so slow, that if the vent system has decent sized lines (1/4" may be too small) that our rate of descent/climb is really pretty subtle change rate.
I don't know, at low altitude the outside pressure changes 0.25 psi/500 ft. A 0.026 psi difference in tank/sump pressure will change the sump fuel level by 1". The question is - How quickly will the vent system transfer air to an nearly empty tank. Has anyone ever pressurized their empty tank and measured the time it takes for the pressure to go to zero?
Unless, of course, you're going to rolling over on your back and going into a vertical dive for a strafing or high speed bombing run. You know, the more a person flies, the more that I'm astounded at the piloting skills of our Air Force pilots. Mind-boggling, and some of them are just past being teenagers; but a little off subject.And, 2nd, there really shouldn't be any air space in the sump, if it's properly vent to a static condition with the tanks, and so it may not make a difference that the change-rate for the sump is slightly different than the mains.
I agree that there shouldn't be any air space in the sump under static pressure conditions, and in this case the pressure change rate for the sump is instantaneous so it makes the biggest difference.
All these nice things people were posting about mutual respect, understanding and sensitivity, heck, it made me want to go hug somebody!!
Sorry, Chuck, you're not my type.
John
Chuck
--------------AEFB9FCBAEF433354313B81A-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 16:02:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:02:38 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004901c35519$498bfc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C354DE.9D2D2400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was thinking of this also- about using check valves in the lines from the mains to the sump to keep the fuel always moving in the correct direction- anyone else done this? any other comments on why is a good/bad idea? Before analyzing what might be bad about the idea, I'd be interested in knowing what benefit there could be. Al ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C354DE.9D2D2400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was thinking of this also- about using check valves in the lines from = the

mains to the sump to keep the fuel always moving in the correct = direction-

anyone else done this? any other comments on why is a good/bad = idea?

Before analyzing what might be bad about the idea, = I'd be interested in knowing what benefit there could be.

<= /font>

Al

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C354DE.9D2D2400-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 18:26:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:26:22 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Off topic; People's sensitivities In-Reply-To: <01c101c35499$b729b840$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C35503.7482D520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will never forget (...I'm still wiping the tears of mirth from my eyes!!) Milt's brief request of Scott D. asking him why he doesn't come out and say what he really means after Scott (in his inimitable style) bluntly analysed (in earthy language) the content of Velocity Views. ....let there be more moments like this! That was classic. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C35503.7482D520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I will never forget = (...I'm still=20 wiping the tears of mirth from my eyes!!) Milt's = brief request of=20 Scott D. asking him why he doesn't come out and say what he really = means after=20 Scott (in his inimitable style) bluntly analysed (in earthy = language) the=20 content of Velocity Views. ....let there be more moments like=20 this!

That=20 was classic.
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C35503.7482D520-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 19:54:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:54:34 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:(no subject) Message-ID: <001a01c35539$b16a0cc0$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> I'm planning on using 3/16" aluminum brake lines from approximately the canard bulkhead to the landing gear bulkhead area and using flexible aeroquip or equivalent going up to the brake cylinders and down the leg to the brakes. What's the best kind of aluminum to use, 3003, 5052 or 6061 and how should it be fastened to the fuselage, what spacing etc. On a related note, I'll be running the flexible tubing down the back of the main gear leg (SEFG), in looking at the manual I can't find any details on how you do this or what you do to finish off the rest of the leg once the moldings at the wheel pants and leg/fuselage have been installed. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks all, Tony From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 20:10:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:10:55 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:(no subject) Message-ID: <12c.2eed5bdc.2c56cf3f@aol.com> --part1_12c.2eed5bdc.2c56cf3f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run the line through them. I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then buried them in micro and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, but one can pull the lines out if they need replacing, etc. Bob Wood --part1_12c.2eed5bdc.2c56cf3f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run the li= ne through them. I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then buried the= m in micro and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, but one= can pull the lines out if they need replacing, etc.

Bob Wood --part1_12c.2eed5bdc.2c56cf3f_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 20:34:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves In-Reply-To: <004901c35519$498bfc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <20030728193452.68365.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> The current vent system: All three tanks vented thru a common manifold mounted high up on the forward side of the firewall. The only benefit I see from the check valves between the mains and the sump is preventing the transfer of fuel from one main tank to the other. Although this can happen, as the factory demonstrated w/ a 'rigged' cap, one of the caps REALLY needs to be leaking. They are not going to help one of the issues that started this thread which is uneven fuel flow from the mains and the resulting useless fuel in the fuller tank when the lower tank runs dry. Al's analysis of the head pressures involved is right on. The current gravity system is simple, just not very positive. The last time this thread went around someone suggested placing electrically operated valves between the mains and the sump. The valves would require power to close and failed open. The idea was that these valves could be used to manage uneven fuel levels. Of course they add both fuel management complexity and additional failure points to the fuel system... In terms of the sump fuel warnings - has anyone looked (or had someone else look) at the sump fuel level in flight while the warning light is coming on? It might help the discussion if we actually knew there was air in the sump, how much, and in when. I suspect this is more of a sensor issue than a safety one. Pat --- alventures wrote: > Before analyzing what might be bad about the idea, > I'd be interested in > knowing what benefit there could be. > > > > Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 21:17:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <3F2487C5.8B6D5C64@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <20030728201723.75911.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> John, As Scott B. has pointed, fluid dynamics can be very unintuitive. Assume it's not going to work. I would want to first run all the static tests possible (gravity flow with and without the sump vent, refill rate of unvented sump full of air...). Consider waiting until in-flight to clamp the sump vent off - high over an airport or something better so you have a decent chance of getting the engine restarted or making a safe landing if it doesn't work out. Obviously the dynamic testing will need to be done across the entire flight envelope at different fuel levels. Bottom line - I wouldn't approach this lightly (not that you would). Pat --- John Dibble wrote: > Ronnie, > Thanks much. .72 psig doesn't sound too high. I'm > thinking of blocking > off the vent line and allowing the two over flow > vents to pressurize the > 3 tanks. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 23:44:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:44:06 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: Message-ID: <004201c35559$c0881560$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C355AD.91E7DA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ....Now Chuck you're making me glad I live so far away! Greg in Sydney. All these nice things people were posting about mutual respect, = understanding and sensitivity, heck, it made me want to go hug = somebody!! Chuck ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C355AD.91E7DA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
....Now Chuck you're making me glad I live so far away!

Greg in Sydney.

All=20 these nice things people were posting about mutual respect, = understanding and=20 sensitivity, heck, it made me want to go hug = somebody!!

Chuck

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C355AD.91E7DA20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 23:50:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:50:06 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" References: <12c.2eed5bdc.2c56cf3f@aol.com> Message-ID: <007101c3555a$96f71a60$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C355AE.6867A800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob; I trust you did a quality tests (please share your findings) = between straws from McD's and Burger King as well before you settled on = Wendy's! ....but then, we are building "experimental" aren't we? Greg in Sydney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:(no subject) I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run the line through them. = I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then buried them in micro = and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, but one can pull = the lines out if they need replacing, etc. Bob Wood=20 ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C355AE.6867A800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob; I trust you did a quality tests (please share your findings) = between=20 straws from McD's and Burger King as well before you settled on Wendy's! = ....but=20 then, we are building "experimental" aren't we?

Greg in Sydney

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 = 5:10=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:(no = subject)

I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run = the line=20 through them. I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then buried = them in=20 micro and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, but = one can=20 pull the lines out if they need replacing, etc.

Bob Wood =
------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C355AE.6867A800-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 01:36:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:36:02 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" Message-ID: <137.230619fc.2c571b72@aol.com> --part1_137.230619fc.2c571b72_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, actually I found the straws I could can buy to be too small diameter, but the next day I had lunch at Wendy's and ---- Voila! Bob --part1_137.230619fc.2c571b72_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, actually I found the straws I could can bu= y to be too small diameter, but the next day I had lunch at Wendy's and ----= Voila!

Bob --part1_137.230619fc.2c571b72_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 01:43:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Kuc) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:43:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Non US Winds Aloft Message-ID: <006e01c3556a$6f4da640$0301a8c0@win2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C35548.E8176740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inquiring minds would like to know. How does one do weather briefing in = Europe, especially if you wanted to get winds aloft. Thanks Bob ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C35548.E8176740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inquiring minds would like to = know. How does=20 one do weather briefing in Europe, especially if you wanted to get = winds=20 aloft.

Thanks

Bob
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C35548.E8176740-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 03:49:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:49:34 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" In-Reply-To: <007101c3555a$96f71a60$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_FvvRzMcJZrCo8oj1KV2dlg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Actually, I used straws from Wendy's also- and yes I did check them all- Wendy's has larger diameter straws and thicker wall than anyone else, and they are perfect for running the brake lines, McDonalds, Burger King, and 7-11 - all to small and flimsy- I did find a chevron that had some good ones also, but I had already used the Wendy's -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Greg Poole Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 4:50 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" Bob; I trust you did a quality tests (please share your findings) between straws from McD's and Burger King as well before you settled on Wendy's! ....but then, we are building "experimental" aren't we? Greg in Sydney ----- Original Message ----- From: SlvEgl99@aol.com To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:(no subject) I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run the line through them. I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then buried them in micro and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, but one can pull the lines out if they need replacing, etc. Bob Wood --Boundary_(ID_FvvRzMcJZrCo8oj1KV2dlg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Actually, I used straws from Wendy's also- and yes I did check them all- Wendy's has larger diameter straws and thicker wall than anyone else, and they are perfect for running the brake lines, McDonalds, Burger King, and 7-11 - all to small and flimsy- I did find a chevron that had some good ones also, but I had already used the Wendy's

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Greg Poole
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 4:50 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw"

Bob; I trust you did a quality tests (please share your findings) between straws from McD's and Burger King as well before you settled on Wendy's! ....but then, we are building "experimental" aren't we?

Greg in Sydney

----- Original Message -----

From: SlvEgl99@aol.com

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:10 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:(no subject)

I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run the line through them. I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then buried them in micro and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, but one can pull the lines out if they need replacing, etc.

Bob Wood
--Boundary_(ID_FvvRzMcJZrCo8oj1KV2dlg)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 04:04:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Spike Duncan) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 In-Reply-To: <009d01c3537f$03bee520$6700a8c0@thebeach.net> Message-ID: <20030729030419.14517.qmail@web41302.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1453850726-1059447859=:13957 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We'll also be installing the UPSAT stack including the MX-20 and are considering the WSI AV-100 once we get flying. We'd appreciate any info you can send regarding installation. >From another lurker. Spike Duncan XL-RG, 300 hp IO540, MT prop still a-building > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SlvEgl99@aol.com > > To: Reflector@awpi.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:59 PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100 > > > > Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my > > Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is > > much like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is > > updated every 5 minutes and includes both graphic and text > > information (METARS and TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status > > (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting station. > > > > There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is > > intersted I will give more detail. > > > > Bob Wood > > N658SE > > > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1453850726-1059447859=:13957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
We'll also be installing the UPSAT stack including the MX-20 and are considering the WSI AV-100 once we get flying. We'd appreciate any info you can send regarding installation.

From another lurker.

Spike Duncan

XL-RG, 300 hp IO540, MT prop

still a-building

> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: SlvEgl99@aol.com
> > To: Reflector@awpi.com
> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:59 PM
> > Subject: REFLECTOR:WSI AV-100
> >
> > Yesterday I had the WSI AV-100 weather system installed in my
> > Velocity. It displays clearly on the UPSAT MX-20. The picture is
> > much like whatr you get from the weather channel. The data is
> > updated every 5 minutes and includes both graphic and text
> > information (METARS and TAF, etc.) Graphically it shows the status
> > (VFR, IFR, etc of any reporting station.
> >
> > There are some wrinkles in installing the system. If anyone is
> > intersted I will give more detail.
> >
> > Bob Wood
> > N658SE
> >
>
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1453850726-1059447859=:13957-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 04:05:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:05:35 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves References: <1059401407.3f252ebf9da77@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: <003901c3557e$47cf15e0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> I'm inclined to agree. One thing you can't overlook with check valves is the resistance to flow that's added. In a high-pressure system this may be negligible, but when we have only a tiny head pushing the fuel to the sump it could be critical! The pressure necessary to overcome the spring and start flow is called the "cracking pressure", because that's the pressure that will just crack the valve open. I suspect that most check valves have a cracking pressure that's higher than the pressure we have available to make the fuel flow in the first place. If that was the case, no fuel would flow at all, and a sump tank vent would prevent the fuel pump suction from helping! At best, they would substantially restrict the flow to the sump as well as from the sump. This brings up the other check valve we are advised to add to the fuel system - the valve in the vent system high on the engine bulkhead that is supposed to provide an alternate vent inlet to let the fuel flow if the belly vent ices over or is plugged by mud daubers. What is the recommended valve for this application, and what is its cracking pressure? Here we have the advantage that the fuel pumps will suck the pressure in the sump tank down in the case of a blocked vent inlet, but I'd still like to have some assurance that the cracking pressure is low enough to really let the valve serve its intended function! Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Ferrell" To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 7:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:RE:check valves > I'll bite. Although it *should* be OK, all thinngs being equal, I think it's a bad idea because all things are never equal. There are a lot of ways the tanks might get out of balance, and with open lines they can rebalance themselves and avoid a lot of trimming. > > I think in the example of the tip tanks, they're meant to be able to be completely drained, and you wouldn't want them refilling in a steep (uncoordinated) turn. You shouldn't routinely have the strakes running dry, and even if you get a little undesirable cross flow, the moment arm isn't as big a concern as with a tip tank. > > Brett > > Quoting Alexander Balic : > > > I was thinking of this also- about using check valves in the lines from the > > mains to the sump to keep the fuel always moving in the correct direction- > > anyone else done this? any other comments on why is a good/bad idea? From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 04:11:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:11:24 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" References: <12c.2eed5bdc.2c56cf3f@aol.com> <007101c3555a$96f71a60$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <004701c3557f$184098c0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C35544.6BB88DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, I realize your post was tongue-in-cheek, but: =20 I tried straws from McDonald's, Wendys, Burger King and In 'n Out = Burger, but they were all too large in diameter for a nice slip fit on = the nylaflow tubing. Then I found that Subway Sandwiches had straws = that were "just right"! I used a little vinyl tape to join them = end-to-end and keep the epoxy out and glassed them onto the back of the = gear legs in a most aerodynamic way! Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Poole=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 3:50 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" Bob; I trust you did a quality tests (please share your findings) = between straws from McD's and Burger King as well before you settled on = Wendy's! ....but then, we are building "experimental" aren't we? Greg in Sydney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:10 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:(no subject) I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run the line through = them. I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then buried them in = micro and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, but one can = pull the lines out if they need replacing, etc. Bob Wood ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C35544.6BB88DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg,

I realize your post was = tongue-in-cheek,=20 but:

I tried straws from McDonald's, = Wendys, Burger=20 King and In 'n Out Burger, but they were all too large in diameter for a = nice=20 slip fit on the nylaflow tubing. Then I found that Subway = Sandwiches had=20 straws that were "just right"! I used a little vinyl tape to join = them=20 end-to-end and keep the epoxy out and glassed them onto the back of the = gear=20 legs in a most aerodynamic way!

Keith

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg = Poole=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 = 3:50 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the = "short=20 straw"

Bob; I trust you did a quality tests (please share your findings) = between=20 straws from McD's and Burger King as well before you settled on = Wendy's!=20 ....but then, we are building "experimental" aren't we?

Greg in Sydney

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 = 5:10=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:(no=20 subject)

I took soda straws I stole from Wendy's and run = the line=20 through them. I hot glued the straws to the gear legs and then = buried them=20 in micro and sanded it to conform to the leg. Not noticable, = but one=20 can pull the lines out if they need replacing, etc.

Bob = Wood=20
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C35544.6BB88DE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 05:22:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:22:43 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: <193.1dc48892.2c575093@aol.com> --part1_193.1dc48892.2c575093_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The common fuel vent manifold must be as high as possible. The plans show that. Please no fuel in the vent line. 1/8 inch O rings on fuel caps. Mack --part1_193.1dc48892.2c575093_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The common fuel vent manifold mu= st be as high as possible. The plans show that.
Please no fuel in the vent line.
1/8 inch O rings on fuel caps.
Mack
--part1_193.1dc48892.2c575093_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 06:03:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:03:04 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:(no subject) In-Reply-To: <001a01c35539$b16a0cc0$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Message-ID: <005001c3558e$b1922d90$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C35554.05335590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony; I'm planning on using 3/16" aluminum brake lines from approximately the canard bulkhead to the landing gear bulkhead area and using flexible aeroquip or = equivalent going up to the brake cylinders and down the leg to the brakes. What's the best kind of aluminum to use, 3003, 5052 or 6061 and how = should it be fastened to the fuselage, what spacing etc. 6061 would be the best, but what you are most likely to find in 3/16" is 3003. It doesn't matter because in this small diameter the 3003 will = handle the pressure just fine, and it is more flexible so easier to work with. = I strapped the two lines together by slipping about 1" lengths of 3/8" neoprene fuel hose over the tubes, and spaced them about 10" apart; then slide the pair through the wiring duct exiting through a hole just = behind the keel flange. The neoprene also provides a nice buffer so they don't chafe on the fiberglass. On a related note, I'll be running the flexible tubing down the back of = the main gear leg (SEFG), in looking at the manual I can't find any details = on how you do this or what you do to finish off the rest of the leg once = the moldings at the wheel pants and leg/fuselage have been installed. Could someone point me in the right direction? The straws from the junk food vendors are a fine idea for allowing replacement of the nylaflow tubing; but, of course, the reason for going = to the aeroquipe Teflon/braided SS is so you don't have to ever replace = them. Consider putting heat shrink tubing over the braided SS for the length = along the more radiused part of the leg, and then imbed in microballoon filler = as suggested with the straws. The heat shrink should provide some minimal differential movement between the microballoon and the tube during = flexing if it's needed. 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I used a bit of foam to form a level place and attached them with a couple of light weight glass layups. I drilled the foam and made flox hardpoints to screw into. The unit is about 6 inches from the fuselage wall with the connectors to the rear. I used an aluminum sheet for a ground plane. It is about 1 ft square, and is angular due to the configuration of the canard hatch. It is mounted in the top of the hatch, thus I must uncouple the antenna wire each time I remove the hatch. This is a fairly infrequent event, thus not an issue to me. I have a photo of the installation, but it is still in my camera. I will put it on line when I get it developed. Bob --part1_7b.163f74ae.2c57ae7c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I installed the unit on top of the pilot's side of the canard. I used a bit=20= of foam to form a level place and attached them with a couple of light weigh= t glass layups. I drilled the foam and made flox hardpoints to screw into. T= he unit is about 6 inches from the fuselage wall with the connectors to the=20= rear. I used an aluminum sheet for a ground plane. It is about 1 ft square,=20= and is angular due to the configuration of the canard hatch. It is mounted i= n the top of the hatch, thus I must uncouple the antenna wire each time I re= move the hatch. This is a fairly infrequent event, thus not an issue to me.=20= I have a photo of the installation, but it is still in my camera. I will put= it on line when I get it developed.

Bob --part1_7b.163f74ae.2c57ae7c_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 14:52:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:52:33 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" Message-ID: <3e.33014668.2c57d621@aol.com> In a message dated 7/28/03 8:13:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, KeithHallsten@quiknet.com writes: << I tried straws from McDonald's, Wendys, Burger King and In 'n Out Burger, but they were all too large in diameter for a nice slip fit on the nylaflow tubing. >> Jack-In-the-Sack's blue shake straws work too. TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 14:57:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:57:14 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" Message-ID: <2b.44feb3d7.2c57d73a@aol.com> --part1_2b.44feb3d7.2c57d73a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly more expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your socks. :) Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly. Kurt Winker --part1_2b.44feb3d7.2c57d73a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, sim= ilar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was on= ly slightly more expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed=20= in your socks. :)

Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly.

Kurt Winker --part1_2b.44feb3d7.2c57d73a_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 15:25:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:25:46 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" In-Reply-To: <2b.44feb3d7.2c57d73a@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0913_01C355B3.6470D910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I AM SHOCKED AT THE LARCENY that is being committed by my fellow builders. Stealing from cultural icons such as Mickey D's. However, if ya' need a lawyer........ Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly more expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your socks. :) Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly. Kurt Winker ------=_NextPart_000_0913_01C355B3.6470D910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I AM=20 SHOCKED AT THE LARCENY that is being committed by my fellow=20 builders. Stealing from cultural icons such as = Mickey D's. =20 However, if ya' need a lawyer........ = <g>

Christopher Barber
Attorney and Counselor at = Law
11930 S=20 Sam Houston Pkwy E
Suite 103
Houston, Texas = 77089-4755
281-464-LAWS=20 (5297)
281-754-4168 (Fax)

"Serving the needs of Senior=20 Texans"

CBarber@TexasAttorney.net
www.TexasAttorney.net =

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 NMFlyer1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:57=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Drawing=20 the "short straw"

I used a single piece of = thin wall=20 polytube, similar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, = has no=20 seams, and was only slightly more expensive than sneaking out of = wendies with=20 straws stuffed in your socks. :)

Also easy to sand so = that the=20 glass layer would hold it firmly.

Kurt Winker=20
------=_NextPart_000_0913_01C355B3.6470D910-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 16:02:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:02:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_HWoPa8ZT0drPh6z6LVnBAw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Those coppers 'll never catch me See....... I'm innocent see.......... innocent I tell ya........ -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:26 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" I AM SHOCKED AT THE LARCENY that is being committed by my fellow builders. Stealing from cultural icons such as Mickey D's. However, if ya' need a lawyer........ Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly more expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your socks. :) Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly. Kurt Winker --Boundary_(ID_HWoPa8ZT0drPh6z6LVnBAw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Those coppers 'll never catch me See....... I'm innocent see.......... innocent I tell ya........

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:26 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw"

I AM SHOCKED AT THE LARCENY that is being committed by my fellow builders. Stealing from cultural icons such as Mickey D's. However, if ya' need a lawyer........ <g>

Christopher Barber
Attorney and Counselor at Law
11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E
Suite 103
Houston, Texas 77089-4755
281-464-LAWS (5297)
281-754-4168 (Fax)

"Serving the needs of Senior Texans"

CBarber@TexasAttorney.net
www.TexasAttorney.net

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:57 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw"

I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly more expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your socks. :)

Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly.

Kurt Winker
--Boundary_(ID_HWoPa8ZT0drPh6z6LVnBAw)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 17:59:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:59:49 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" Message-ID: Don't forget that all you guys stealing straws at Wendy's are just as bad as Simon stealing Fritos... Best... Steve P.S. Just joking... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 19:20:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:20:54 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_097B_01C355D4.3D63E350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Ya dirty brother, ya killed my rat" Oh, and if all goes well, I may be able to order my wings next week. When they all get back from Osh. All the best, Chris "last split kit" Barber Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:03 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" Those coppers 'll never catch me See....... I'm innocent see.......... innocent I tell ya........ -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:26 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" I AM SHOCKED AT THE LARCENY that is being committed by my fellow builders. Stealing from cultural icons such as Mickey D's. However, if ya' need a lawyer........ Christopher Barber Attorney and Counselor at Law 11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E Suite 103 Houston, Texas 77089-4755 281-464-LAWS (5297) 281-754-4168 (Fax) "Serving the needs of Senior Texans" CBarber@TexasAttorney.net www.TexasAttorney.net -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly more expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your socks. :) Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly. Kurt Winker ------=_NextPart_000_097B_01C355D4.3D63E350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Ya dirty=20 brother, ya killed my rat"

Oh, and if=20 all goes well, I may be able to order my wings next week. When = they all=20 get back from Osh.

All the=20 best,

Chris=20 "last split kit" Barber

Christopher Barber
Attorney and Counselor at = Law
11930 S=20 Sam Houston Pkwy E
Suite 103
Houston, Texas = 77089-4755
281-464-LAWS=20 (5297)
281-754-4168 (Fax)

"Serving the needs of Senior=20 Texans"

CBarber@TexasAttorney.net
www.TexasAttorney.net =

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander=20 Balic
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:03 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short = straw"

Those coppers 'll never catch me See....... I'm innocent = see..........=20 innocent I tell ya........

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Christopher=20 Barber
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:26 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Drawing the = "short=20 straw"

I AM=20 SHOCKED AT THE LARCENY that is being committed by my fellow=20 builders. Stealing from cultural icons such as = Mickey D's. =20 However, if ya' need a lawyer........ = <g>

Christopher Barber
Attorney and Counselor at = Law
11930=20 S Sam Houston Pkwy E
Suite 103
Houston, Texas=20 77089-4755
281-464-LAWS (5297)
281-754-4168 = (Fax)

"Serving the=20 needs of Senior=20 Texans"

CBarber@TexasAttorney.net
www.TexasAttorney.net=20

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 NMFlyer1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:57=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re:=20 REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw"

I=20 used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the = nylaflow.=20 It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly = more=20 expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your = socks. :)

Also easy to sand so that the glass layer = would=20 hold it firmly.

Kurt Winker=20
------=_NextPart_000_097B_01C355D4.3D63E350-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 00:02:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:02:21 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Low Fuel Light Message-ID: <008001c35625$77a0ee40$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C355FB.8ECAE640 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0082_01C355FB.8ECAE640" ------=_NextPart_001_0082_01C355FB.8ECAE640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After gazing at the sump tank for some time it occurred to me the fuel flowing into the sump from the pilot tank in a stable plane at cruise is flowing very near the switch. There may be an eddy or current flow causing the switch flow to bounce without air in the tank at all. I could move the tube exits, the switch, plug either tube and test but I too will fly and study and have fears of changing a system that works with an occasional flash of red light. Please consider this point with all the other excellent meanderings, expressions and cogitations. Thanks See ya at Oshkosh probably with an occasional low fuel warning blink. Rene' ------=_NextPart_001_0082_01C355FB.8ECAE640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

After gazing at the sump tank for some time = it occurred to me the fuel flowing into the sump from the pilot tank in a stable = plane at cruise is flowing very near the switch. There may be an eddy or = current flow causing the switch flow to bounce without air in the tank at = all. I could move the tube exits, the switch, plug either tube and test but I = too will fly and study and have fears of changing a system that works with an = occasional flash of red light. Please consider this point with all the other excellent meanderings, expressions and cogitations. = Thanks

See ya at Oshkosh probably with = an occasional low fuel warning blink.

Rene’

------=_NextPart_001_0082_01C355FB.8ECAE640-- ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C355FB.8ECAE640 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhKAAeAPcAAJkAM/8zZswAM/8AM/+ZmcwzZv/M/8xmmZkzZmYAM8wzmf+ZzP9mzP+Z//9m mcwAZv8AZv8zmf8Amf8zzP8AzP9m//8z//9QUNYAk5kAZsxmzMwzzMyZ/8xm/8wz/5kzmcwAzMwA /5kAzJkAmcyZzJlmmWYzZmYAmZkzzGYAZpkA/5kz/5lmzDMAM2YzmWYzzGYAzJlm/zMAZmYA/2Yz /8zM/5mZ/5mZzGZmzGZm/2ZmmTMzZjMzmTMAmTMAzDMAzDMz/zMzzABm/wAzzDNm/zNmzAAAZgAA MwAA/wAAmQAzzAAAzDNmmQBmzJnM/2aZ/wAzZmaZzABmmTOZzACZzGbM/zOZ/wAzmQCZ/zPM/wDM /5n//2b//wAzMwD//wDMzACZmWaZmZnMzMz//zPMzGbMzDOZmTNmZgBmZgAzMwD/zDP/zDPMmQDM mWb/zJn/zAD/mTOZZgBmMzNmM2aZZmbMZpn/mWb/ZjOZM5nMmWb/mTP/mTPMZgDMZmbMmQCZZgCZ MzP/ZgD/Zsz/zMz/mZn/Zpn/MwDMMzP/MwDMMzPMMzPMM2b/M2bMMwBmAAAzAACZADPMAGb/AJn/ AGbMAADMADPMADOZAJnMZmaZM5nMMzNmAGaZAJnMAMz/Zsz/M8z/AJmZAMzMAMzMMzMzAGZmAJmZ M8zMZmZmM5mZZszMmf//zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/MAP/MZv/MM8yZM5lmAMyZAP+ZAMxmAJkzAMxm M2YzAP+ZZv9mM/+ZM/9mAMwzAJlmMzMAAGYzM5lmZsyZmZkzM8xmZv/MzP8zM8wzM/9mZmYAAJkA AMwAAP8AAP8zAMyZZv/MmczMzJmZmWZmZjMzMwAAAP///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAeAAAI/wCvrVp1 TWBBgQQHCqxxUOGqYwQNSjMYkWHBY9cmHjyoMWPBVR1rJNzIEWFBaREHohwocqBLkyATKpT4kmJE jwY/TnQp0+VKhi9RIkxJ8mNDkEUtflylFGNBoEYpaoQYNePNkQ0PijTZkaDThhOhbtXINKfXoicJ MuxI9ulRnEs9zpQYtSJapCSRKp1Lsm1bp3uNkiUotKzAnX1PPsXL1ihUrCuHxuRpdqhkhyot28UZ cWfLa1spiiW51utNnURTYn2bNu/UtVkNhu688GLqokTpqj7MGqJauTmVVi3a0aRbtBuF4my5kulu mMpnEq4pU6f12g6jx7Q53XjOvKxJJ3A3/FDrNaqpp+a2mvXqza0KJyL+qhi07LxQv9t3bx9u1L3F XceeYCMpl19sef1Wl35tZeVUV4IZV9hj+nEGXH2clTVSZ5iphFllL/HU4VLVCXeeYoaZFJpjHhVH W4YWbcfeVbwheB1fNi2YI3XmURQQADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C355FB.8ECAE640-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 01:54:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Carl Hoffman) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:54:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:retractable gear -mechanical stop to limit up travel References: <007401c35413$5afdcc40$c4a5fea9@s0026388084> Message-ID: <3F27172A.6C822A34@erols.com> --------------3E145403ACDD198DDCF6A8BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mechanical stops you refer to are in the wheel wells, in the top strakes. They are half moon in shape and are made by removing the inner skin and foam, and glassing the resulting cavity with micro and 3 or 4 plies of BID. They are made at the time the top strake is prepare for closure. They provide additional room for the wheels, stop the rotating wheels, prevent foam from being crushed. There is of course an aluminum stop (over thick washer) on the end of the hydraulic ram and cable bridle to build pressure for the limit switch to shut down the motor. Since the retract system is not symmetrical, one of the wheels is stopped by it's stop, and the remaining wheel is pulled into the well with the pulleys, cables, bridle and scissors action of the over center linkage. The system should be rigged so that the aluminum stop causes the motor to shut down, not the second stop in the wells. The system should be check as part of the "Annual Condition Inspection", which I did last Saturday during N1QR's 3rd Annual. Place the plane on jack stands, retract the gear. Place your hand into the wells, rotate the wheels. One wheel should be hard to rotate, the other easy to rotate. If not, adjust bridle or length of the aluminum stop. Carl Hoffman, SRGE Franklin-MT jack wrote: > I recall seeing pictures somewhere showing a mechanical stop, to stop > the tire from raising to high in the well.I cannot locate any > reference to any stops in the manual.I understand that if properly set > up ,this should not be an issue ,but in any case wonder what others > have done, and if they have installed a stop, where did you install > it? > Thanks Jack std rg elite --------------3E145403ACDD198DDCF6A8BF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mechanical stops you refer to are in the wheel wells, in the top strakes. They are half moon in shape and are made by removing the inner skin and foam, and glassing the resulting cavity with micro and 3 or 4 plies of BID. They are made at the time the top strake is prepare for closure. They provide additional room for the wheels, stop the rotating wheels, prevent foam from being crushed.
There is of course an aluminum stop (over thick washer) on the end of the hydraulic ram and cable bridle to build pressure for the limit switch to shut down the motor.
Since the retract system is not symmetrical, one of the wheels is stopped by it's stop, and the remaining wheel is pulled into the well with the pulleys, cables, bridle and scissors action of the over center linkage.
The system should be rigged so that the aluminum stop causes the motor to shut down, not the second stop in the wells.
The system should be check as part of the "Annual Condition Inspection", which I did last Saturday during N1QR's 3rd Annual.
Place the plane on jack stands, retract the gear. Place your hand into the wells, rotate the wheels. One wheel should be hard to rotate, the other easy to rotate. If not, adjust bridle or length of the aluminum stop.
Carl Hoffman, SRGE Franklin-MT
jack wrote:
I recall seeing pictures somewhere showing a mechanical stop, to stop the tire from raising to high in the well.I cannot locate any reference to any stops in the manual.I understand that if properly set up ,this should not be an issue ,but in any case wonder what others have done, and if they have installed a stop, where did you install it?                                           Thanks                                            Jack std rg elite
--------------3E145403ACDD198DDCF6A8BF-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 02:03:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:03:55 +0800 Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <3F243008.C5B93372@comcast.net> References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> <002001c3541d$4216a170$0300a8c0@DAD> <3F240B44.343D69DD@dixie-net.com> <3F243008.C5B93372@comcast.net> Message-ID: <404062218.20030730090355@yahoo.com.au> I have a 173 RG. It has a total of 4 fuel lines running into the sump (2 from each strake/tank)and this is normal for RG's to feed fuel from area forward of the wheel well and also from area behind wheel well. Q: Does the FIXED GEAR have the same arrangement or only 1 line per tank? Q: The guys with the intermittent 'low fuel' warning ..... FG or RG ??? -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 02:28:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:28:40 +0000 Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: Steve... You have made a very good point...Most, but not all, post do not identify which configuration is being discussed... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 02:33:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:33:05 EDT Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Message-ID: <6a.336aaf6a.2c587a51@aol.com> --part1_6a.336aaf6a.2c587a51_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, My plans show only 1 fuel feed per tank on my 173 FGE. That's how I did it and it hasn't caused any problems yet. ( Ok, Ok, so I'm not flying yet... details). Kurt Winker --part1_6a.336aaf6a.2c587a51_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve,

My plans show only 1 fuel feed per tank on my 173 FGE. That's how I d= id it and it hasn't caused any problems yet. ( Ok, Ok,   so I'm no= t flying yet... details).

Kurt Winker --part1_6a.336aaf6a.2c587a51_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 02:47:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:retractable gear -mechanical stop to limit up travel In-Reply-To: <007401c35413$5afdcc40$c4a5fea9@s0026388084> Message-ID: <20030730014752.9963.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Jack, I inquired about this a while back. My concern was that during gear extension/retraction in turbulence the strake tops could potentially take a pretty good hit from the tire - regardless of how the hydraulic stops are adjusted. Here's the reply I got which seems like a great idea: >>Pat: >>I installed bumpers on the transverse bulkhead. I >>first adjusted the stops on my hydraulic cylinders so >>the tire rubbed the top strake skin....mine is ground >>out to get the gear as high as possible. Let it rub >>since you can adjust a gap when you install the >>bumpers. When I got it adjusted the gear knee came >>about 3/8" from the transverse bulkhead. I just took >>a 2"x2" square of 1/4" plywood, plopped it onto the >>transverse bulkhead where it would lie flush to the >>gear knee, and retracted the gear. The flox took up >>the 1/8" slack and the plywood cured flush w/ the >>gearleg. You can dress up the edges. I then >>covered the plywood w/ a rubber piece to prevent it >>from marring the legs; that rubber also takes up >>room to create whatever, if any, gap you may want >>between the tire and the top strake skin. I didn't >>worry about it since when I'm retracted I can still >>turn the wheel, though it squeeks from touching the >>top strake skin. >>Seems to work great. Hope that helps. >>Mike --- jack wrote: > I recall seeing pictures somewhere showing a > mechanical stop, to stop the tire from raising to > high in the well. > I cannot locate any reference to any stops in the > manual. > I understand that if properly set up ,this should > not be an issue ,but in any case wonder what others > have done, and if they have installed a stop, where > did you install it? > Thanks > Jack > std rg elite > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 02:54:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:54:19 -0700 Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light References: <20030727014309.LVEG23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <3F23582F.2B8B578A@dixie-net.com> <002001c3541d$4216a170$0300a8c0@DAD> <3F240B44.343D69DD@dixie-net.com> <3F243008.C5B93372@comcast.net> <404062218.20030730090355@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <003801c3563d$7d8703e0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Steve, I'm building an XL FG. There is only one 3/8" fuel line from each strake tank, since there is no wheel well. The line comes from the back inside corner of the tank, so nose-down flying would unport the fuel line if the fuel level were low. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" To: "Dave Black" Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 6:03 PM Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light > I have a 173 RG. It has a total of 4 fuel lines running into the sump (2 from > each strake/tank)and this is normal for RG's to feed fuel from area forward of > the wheel well and also from area behind wheel well. > > Q: Does the FIXED GEAR have the same arrangement or only 1 line per tank? > > Q: The guys with the intermittent 'low fuel' warning ..... FG or RG ??? > > -- > Best regards, > steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 29 19:45:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Dibble) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:45:42 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" References: <2b.44feb3d7.2c57d73a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F26C0D6.8DD83A8@dixie-net.com> --------------EEC831E7CC6ECE1304480E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I'm the only one who actually went out and BOUGHT straws. Carnival brand neon straws. John NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote: > I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the nylaflow. > It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly more > expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your > socks. :) > > Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly. > > Kurt Winker --------------EEC831E7CC6ECE1304480E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I'm the only one who actually went out and BOUGHT straws. Carnival brand neon straws.
John
NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote:
I used a single piece of thin wall polytube, similar to the nylaflow. It was Very easy to glass in, has no seams, and was only slightly more expensive than sneaking out of wendies with straws stuffed in your socks. :)
Also easy to sand so that the glass layer would hold it firmly.
Kurt Winker
--------------EEC831E7CC6ECE1304480E00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 03:11:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:11:53 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <6a.336aaf6a.2c587a51@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UFmdDLrG/b2tLBr4tnJ7eA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT only the rg's have the dual feeds, this is to allow the fuel to work around the island that is formed inside the tank by the gear wells. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:33 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Steve, My plans show only 1 fuel feed per tank on my 173 FGE. That's how I did it and it hasn't caused any problems yet. ( Ok, Ok, so I'm not flying yet... details). Kurt Winker --Boundary_(ID_UFmdDLrG/b2tLBr4tnJ7eA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
only the rg's have the dual feeds, this is to allow the fuel to work around the island that is formed inside the tank by the gear wells.

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:33 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Steve,

My plans show only 1 fuel feed per tank on my 173 FGE. That's how I did it and it hasn't caused any problems yet. ( Ok, Ok,   so I'm not flying yet... details).

Kurt Winker
--Boundary_(ID_UFmdDLrG/b2tLBr4tnJ7eA)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 06:19:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (alventures) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:19:05 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:retractable gear -mechanical stop to limit up travel In-Reply-To: <20030730014752.9963.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01c3565a$1906d770$6400a8c0@BigAl> The stops on the transverse bulkhead are either in the early videos or somewhere in the manual, I'm not sure which. Al Jack, I inquired about this a while back. My concern was that during gear extension/retraction in turbulence the strake tops could potentially take a pretty good hit from the tire - regardless of how the hydraulic stops are adjusted. Here's the reply I got which seems like a great idea: >>Pat: >>I installed bumpers on the transverse bulkhead. I >>first adjusted the stops on my hydraulic cylinders so >>the tire rubbed the top strake skin....mine is ground >>out to get the gear as high as possible. Let it rub >>since you can adjust a gap when you install the >>bumpers. When I got it adjusted the gear knee came >>about 3/8" from the transverse bulkhead. I just took >>a 2"x2" square of 1/4" plywood, plopped it onto the >>transverse bulkhead where it would lie flush to the >>gear knee, and retracted the gear. The flox took up >>the 1/8" slack and the plywood cured flush w/ the >>gearleg. You can dress up the edges. I then >>covered the plywood w/ a rubber piece to prevent it >>from marring the legs; that rubber also takes up >>room to create whatever, if any, gap you may want >>between the tire and the top strake skin. I didn't >>worry about it since when I'm retracted I can still >>turn the wheel, though it squeeks from touching the >>top strake skin. >>Seems to work great. Hope that helps. >>Mike --- jack wrote: > I recall seeing pictures somewhere showing a > mechanical stop, to stop the tire from raising to > high in the well. > I cannot locate any reference to any stops in the > manual. > I understand that if properly set up ,this should > not be an issue ,but in any case wonder what others > have done, and if they have installed a stop, where > did you install it? > Thanks > Jack > std rg elite > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 14:10:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:10:58 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:[Fwd: [Canards] Cozy parts, engine, etc.] Message-ID: <3F27C3E2.8080406@tnstaafl.net> Thought I'd forward this.. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Canards] Cozy parts, engine, etc. Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:33:22 -0600 From: Michael Joyce Reply-To: canards@tnstaafl.net Organization: Team B9 To: canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com, Canards@tnstaafl.net, cozy_builders@canard.com References: <074501c355cd$daa9e5d0$6501a8c0@CAFEF00D> Due to financial reasons I am selling all my Cozy items. I've got a ton of stuff including Nat's Franklin engine installation. Check out this site for details: http://www.rapidnet.com/~mikejjs/Cozy/Project.html I will be out of town until the 4th but will be happy to privately answer questions after that. Thanks! MikeJ . For subscription information go to http://canards.tnstaafl.net From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 14:22:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Simon Aegerter) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:22:32 +0200 Subject: REFLECTOR:Drawing the "short straw" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Don't forget that all you guys stealing straws at Wendy's are just >as bad as Simon stealing Fritos... Sorry about that! (If I just could remember....) ;-) Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 15:45:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Velocity_AZ) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:45:50 -0700 Subject: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light In-Reply-To: <6a.336aaf6a.2c587a51@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C3566E.98ED84C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a 173FG � 10.5 hours of flying so far. One line per fuel tank (as per plans) � no problems. However I did not run the fuel lines from the strakes behind the angled center spar bulkhead � instead I ran them from the side of fuselage � straight down to the sump tank � it was a more direct route and less bends. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 6:33 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: REFLECTOR:Low fuel light Steve, My plans show only 1 fuel feed per tank on my 173 FGE. That's how I did it and it hasn't caused any problems yet. ( Ok, Ok, so I'm not flying yet... details). Kurt Winker ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C3566E.98ED84C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a 173FG – 10.5 hours of flying so = far. One line per fuel tank (as per = plans) – no problems. However I = did not run the fuel lines from the strakes behind the angled center spar bulkhead = – instead I ran them from the side of fuselage – straight down to the sump = tank – it was a more direct route and less bends.

Ke= vin

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, = 2003 6:33 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: Re[2]: = REFLECTOR:Low fuel light

Steve,

My plans show only 1 fuel feed per tank on my 173 FGE. That's how = I did it and it hasn't caused any problems yet. ( Ok, Ok,   so I'm = not flying yet... details).

Kurt Winker

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C3566E.98ED84C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 17:56:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:56:42 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C356BB.8D01193A" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356BB.8D01193A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this. =20 Hiroo ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356BB.8D01193A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a = spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has = anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone = has already done this.

Hiroo

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356BB.8D01193A-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 18:23:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:23:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_u+FmT5pRoDr7vAslCH3FQQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hiroo, Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using something similar... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this. Hiroo --Boundary_(ID_u+FmT5pRoDr7vAslCH3FQQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hiroo,

Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using something similar...

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this.

Hiroo
--Boundary_(ID_u+FmT5pRoDr7vAslCH3FQQ)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 18:38:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:38:11 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C356C1.58891CE2" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356C1.58891CE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can e-mail me the pictures at humeno@hotmail.com. =20 Thanks. =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:24 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring =20 Hiroo, =20 Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using something similar... =20 Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this. =20 Hiroo ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356C1.58891CE2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You can e-mail me the pictures at = humeno@hotmail.com.<= /p>

Thanks.

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Alexander Balic
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, = 2003 10:24 AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

Hiroo,

Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have = some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using = something similar...

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 = AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush = tie-down ring

I was thinking about = tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly = easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not = re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this.

Hiroo

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356C1.58891CE2-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 18:59:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Milton Mersky) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:59:51 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring References: Message-ID: <3F280797.1050806@airmail.net> Hiroo: Please post Kevin Steiner who installed a spring loaded tie down ring on his SUV Milt Hiroo Umeno wrote: > I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had > a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded > tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen > this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has > already done this. > > > > Hiroo > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed Jul 30 22:12:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:12:57 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring References: Message-ID: <005a01c356df$5b0780e0$6501a8c0@pwcinternal.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C356A4.AD1E5F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, Could you send them to me too. Thanks, Tony ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alexander Balic=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:23 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Hiroo, Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I = have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be = using something similar... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and = had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded = tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this = done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has = already done this. Hiroo ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C356A4.AD1E5F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alex,

Could you send them to me = too.

Thanks,

Tony

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alexander=20 Balic
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 = 10:23=20 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush = tie-down=20 ring

Hiroo,

Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the = strake- I=20 have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will = be using=20 something similar...

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo=20 Umeno
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 = AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down=20 ring

I was thinking about = tie-down=20 ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should = be=20 fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts = flush when=20 not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much = rather not=20 re-invent the wheel if someone has already done = this.

Hiroo
------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C356A4.AD1E5F60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 03:04:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:04:01 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring References: Message-ID: <003401c35708$02fe9720$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C356CD.566D6480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, Just post them to the list! There are probably lots of us who would = like to look at them! Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alexander Balic=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:23 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Hiroo, Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I = have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be = using something similar... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and = had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded = tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this = done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has = already done this. Hiroo ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C356CD.566D6480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alex,

Just post them to the list! There = are=20 probably lots of us who would like to look at them!

Keith

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alexander=20 Balic
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 = 10:23=20 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush = tie-down=20 ring

Hiroo,

Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the = strake- I=20 have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will = be using=20 something similar...

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo=20 Umeno
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 = AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down=20 ring

I was thinking about = tie-down=20 ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should = be=20 fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts = flush when=20 not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much = rather not=20 re-invent the wheel if someone has already done = this.

Hiroo
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C356CD.566D6480-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 03:33:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rich Guerra) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:33:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --============_-1152503700==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A non-spring loaded variant I used is seen in Systems Work section on my website (scroll down the menu on left - one of these days I'll have to add a search capability on the site. I never dreamed it would get so big) and there are 2 pictures of strake tiedowns and one in the nose in rows 8 and 9. direct links to pics: http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/systemsWork/Tie-down%201.jpg http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/systemsWork/Tie-down%202.jpg nose tiedown: http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/systemsWork/Tie-down%203.jpg I've since modified these since the swing arc interfered with wires passing through strake. I sliced off about half and put little lead weights on the end to "retract" them. Used the stick on square tire weights Rich Velocity XL RG N724X http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/ >I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and >had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded >tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen >this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone >has already done this. > >Hiroo > --============_-1152503700==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring
A non-spring loaded variant I used is seen in Systems Work section on my website (scroll down the menu on left - one of these days I'll have to add a search capability on the site. I never dreamed it would get so big) and there are 2 pictures of strake tiedowns and one in the nose in rows 8 and 9.

direct links to pics:

http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/systemsWork/Tie-down%201.jpg

http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/systemsWork/Tie-down%202.jpg

nose tiedown:

http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/systemsWork/Tie-down%203.jpg

I've since modified these since the swing arc interfered with wires passing through strake. I sliced off about half and put little lead weights on the end to "retract" them. Used the stick on square tire weights

Rich

Velocity XL RG N724X

http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/

I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this.

Hiroo

--============_-1152503700==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 04:14:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 22:14:11 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring In-Reply-To: <003401c35708$02fe9720$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_wkGQwqGRQZx4rX3HbbPXwQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Keith, I got those pics from one of the other builders, but it has been a long time, and I can't remember who.......- but it seems that every time that I try to post even a small picture on the Reflector, it gets held up for "approval" and it never gets posted..... if you know the secret, please go ahead and post them......... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of KeithHallsten Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:04 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Alex, Just post them to the list! There are probably lots of us who would like to look at them! Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Balic To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:23 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Hiroo, Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using something similar... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this. Hiroo --Boundary_(ID_wkGQwqGRQZx4rX3HbbPXwQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Keith,

I got those pics from one of the other builders, but it has been a long time, and I can't remember who.......- but it seems that every time that I try to post even a small picture on the Reflector, it gets held up for "approval" and it never gets posted..... if you know the secret, please go ahead and post them.........

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of KeithHallsten
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:04 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

Alex,

Just post them to the list! There are probably lots of us who would like to look at them!

Keith

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Balic

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:23 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

Hiroo,

Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using something similar...

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this.

Hiroo
--Boundary_(ID_wkGQwqGRQZx4rX3HbbPXwQ)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 04:15:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 22:15:08 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring In-Reply-To: <003401c35708$02fe9720$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_JwSgAP7X8rNugbbqo+Te8Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT PS: I'll need your e-mail to send them directly to you........ -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of KeithHallsten Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:04 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Alex, Just post them to the list! There are probably lots of us who would like to look at them! Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Balic To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:23 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring Hiroo, Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using something similar... Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this. Hiroo --Boundary_(ID_JwSgAP7X8rNugbbqo+Te8Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
PS:

I'll need your e-mail to send them directly to you........

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of KeithHallsten
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:04 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

Alex,

Just post them to the list! There are probably lots of us who would like to look at them!

Keith

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Balic

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:23 AM

Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

Hiroo,

Someone designed some that rotate into the bottom of the strake- I have some pictures I can send you if you send me your E-mail- I will be using something similar...

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Hiroo Umeno
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:57 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Flush tie-down ring

I was thinking about tie-down ring installation on my Velocity and had a thought. It should be fairly easy to create a spring loaded tie-down ring that retracts flush when not in use. Has anyone seen this done? I would much rather not re-invent the wheel if someone has already done this.

Hiroo
--Boundary_(ID_JwSgAP7X8rNugbbqo+Te8Q)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 16:06:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Simon Aegerter) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:06:25 +0200 Subject: REFLECTOR:Non US Winds Aloft In-Reply-To: <006e01c3556a$6f4da640$0301a8c0@win2k> References: <006e01c3556a$6f4da640$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: --============_-1152458344==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Inquiring minds would like to know. How does one do weather >briefing in Europe, especially if you wanted to get winds aloft. Hi, Bob! any adventurous ideas out there? There are many ways, none as straightforward as WXBRIEF or DUATS. Possibilities: - every serious aerodrome in Europe has a so called "C" office (I think it stands for "cash"). Yes they collect your landing fees and they can give you a weather briefing. Depending on the country (Hey, this is Europe!) the local aviation authority may have set up a system of briefing and filing stations at the C offices that you are supposed to use. - if you go in grand style and ask for handling, the handling agency will hand you a complete briefing package. - in every country, there is a phone number that you can call. The C office has the number. No it is not a 800 number! - There are a number of web sites that you can use. I like http://www.phd.nl/aviation/wx/ or http://www.austrocontrol.at Hope that helps! Best Simon -- Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland --============_-1152458344==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: REFLECTOR:Non US Winds Aloft
Inquiring minds would like to know. How does one do weather briefing in Europe, especially if you wanted to get winds aloft.

Hi, Bob!

any adventurous ideas out there?

There are many ways, none as straightforward as WXBRIEF or DUATS. Possibilities:

- every serious aerodrome in Europe has a so called "C" office (I think it stands for "cash"). Yes they collect your landing fees and they can give you a weather briefing. Depending on the country (Hey, this is Europe!) the local aviation authority may have set up a system of briefing and filing stations at the C offices that you are supposed to use.

- if you go in grand style and ask for handling, the handling agency will hand you a complete briefing package.

- in every country, there is a phone number that you can call. The C office has the number. No it is not a 800 number!

- There are a number of web sites that you can use. I like http://www.phd.nl/aviation/wx/ or http://www.austrocontrol.at

Hope that helps!

Best

Simon

--

Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland
--============_-1152458344==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 16:12:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Doug Kanczuzewski) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:12:30 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: Picture held up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c35776$298538e0$8e00a8c0@doug> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3573B.7D2660E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the same problem with pictures. Every time I add them it gets held up, even if I am under the 60kb rule it still say's I am over. Otherwise you guy's would have heard and seen the first flight of N77LY back on the 25th. Still waiting for approval on my post. Doug K ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3573B.7D2660E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have the same problem with pictures. Every time I add them it gets held = up, even if I am under the 60kb rule it still say’s I am over. = Otherwise you guy’s would have heard and seen the first flight of N77LY back on = the 25^th. Still waiting for approval = on my post.

Doug K

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3573B.7D2660E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 17:15:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:15:07 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Picture held up In-Reply-To: <001901c35776$298538e0$8e00a8c0@doug> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35754.FF83C140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The setting is 60KB, but I'm not sure how the internal software counts that. It may be 61440 bytes, or 60000 bytes. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Doug Kanczuzewski Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:13 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Picture held up I have the same problem with pictures. Every time I add them it gets held up, even if I am under the 60kb rule it still say�s I am over. Otherwise you guy�s would have heard and seen the first flight of N77LY back on the 25th. Still waiting for approval on my post. Doug K ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35754.FF83C140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 setting is 60KB, but I'm not sure how the internal software counts = that. =20 It may be 61440 bytes, or 60000 bytes.

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Doug=20 Kanczuzewski
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:13 = AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Picture held=20 up

I=20 have the same problem with pictures. Every time I add them it gets = held up,=20 even if I am under the 60kb rule it still say’s I am over. = Otherwise you guy’s=20 would have heard and seen the first flight of N77LY back on the=20 25^th. Still = waiting=20 for approval on my post.

Doug=20 K
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35754.FF83C140-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue Jul 22 01:05:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel Filter? In-Reply-To: <3F1BEE24.8E4837A1@dixie-net.com> Message-ID: <20030722000521.67107.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1419218728-1058832321=:65159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline John, attached are two pictures a large view of the inside of the engine bulkhead. The white object mounted on the right inside the spar is the fuel filter and the black obkect on the spar on the left is the electric screw driven fuel cut off valve. the second little picture shows only the filter with the safety clamp and the small AL bracket that locks it in place. As you can see the filter has a large filter area and can also trap a lot of water. I just cut them open like an oil filter and examine them. Jim --- John Dibble wrote: > A picture would be great. > > John > > Jim Agnew wrote: > > > John, > > > > I used a Sierra Fuel filter assembly that uses a screw > on > > filter cartridge and is a paper filter and water trap. > It > > is made for marine use and will flow plenty of fuel (50 > > GPH) if I remember correctly. The adapter is aluminum > not > > pot metal and can take a pounding. The only addition I > > made was a small piece of right angle aluminum with a > #8 > > Bolt sticking up and a large hose clamp that goes > around > > the filter to make sure it cannot unscrew. I use a > heavy > > duty clamp that has small loops at the ends that hing > and I > > slide one of these loops over the #8 bolt to lock the > > filter. The entire unit is inexpensive and is > available at > > most marine stores. If you would like pictures and the > > model # let me know. > > > > Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. 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REFLECTOR: Trailing Edge Aileron Fence and door open emergency procedures In-Reply-To: <000001c32630$fd84f260$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Message-ID: <005001c354b8$ee56d6d0$1101a8c0@pst.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C3547E.41F7FED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Sorry I'm a month late in responding. Am fighting cancer and low energy and don't get to the plane much to measure or take pictures. But I recently did and here they are. I also looked up my original research. The take-off roll was reduced by over 20% not 15%. Actually at the time I measured it, it was roughly 22%. Before I do the numbers and picture story I want to suggest you all add a comment to your emergency procedures. 1. If the door pops open fully, DO NOT TURN AWAY FROM THE OPEN DOOR. If you, like I, ever have that experience. You will start a rapid roll away from the door to an inverted position. For me the door opened slightly as I departed... with the gear coming up it pressurized the cabin and pops the door wide open, and then if you turn away from the door (to head back to the airport) it wants to roll and spin into the ground, in my case at about 200 feet. Opposite rudder and aileron will hold you at a 60 degree bank angle, but won't get you out of the fix as you're going to stall in that configuration. There is a way out, but that's another conversation. OK back to trailing edge fence. I've attached a couple of pictures. They are located on the inboard side of the ailerons. They point directly into the wind. If you are testing, you can cut them out of plexiglass clipboards and hot glue them in place. I did for all of my testing. I also wrote this up in an article in Velocity Views a couple of years ago. Specs: 1. Position. They are located on the inside of the aileron, but face directly into the wind, not the angle of the aileron. 2. They extend back from the trailing edge 1.5 inches, and 5 inches above the trailing edge and 2.5 inches below. 3. From that position the top and bottom dive into the wing. The length of the top (from wing to end of trailing edge) is 12 inches. The bottom is 9 inches, but note that's because the trailing edge of the stall fence is not perpendicular to the ground. Instead of dropping at a 90 degree angle at the top (which may be a preferable design), I slopped mine forward at a 70 degree angle. |---- 12 "------------------ 70 - - - |--- 9" ----------| That's roughly the shape in a text format, except the bottom slopes up to meet the underside of the wing and the top slopes down to meet the top. But both of those may be better served by having a longer run into the wing. Klaus was the one who helped me with this and it wasn't a value at the time. Hope that helps. Fly safe. Rodney Brim, -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Rene Dugas Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:24 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence I would be interested in dimensions and locations of fences. Thanks, Rene' XL RG rdugas@bayou.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Rodney Brim Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:12 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence Hi Chuck, 1. I got a >15% reduction in take-off roll on my final version of the fences. Looks like that is attributable to driving the air more directly over the wing at slower speeds and not having it slide down the wing, which if you do some dirty oil tests you will see that it is doing. 2. It doesn't effect your stall, that's all governed by the canard. 3. It feels like it reduces roll rate slightly. I didn't measure it, but you can tell the plane has more tail feathers, especially as you move the fences out along the wing, which I would not suggest. To me it makes the plane feel more stable. 4. Reduction in cruise speed is dependent upon height of the fences and location. At the location and height I have them, I have no reduction in cruise speed. 5. I think they should be standard on the kit... but then what do I know. I think everyone should move to forward hinging doors;) Rodney Brim, PS I have a picture and dimensions if you want them. They probably helped save my neck as I had an ugly door pop, going inverted stall at 200 feet coming off a runway a couple of years ago... sometimes you can use all the stability and directional control you can get your hands on. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 7:30 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence >From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? 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RRUsCxDU5oopoGJQe1FFMCW1/wBev+e1FFFID//Z ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C3547E.41F7FED0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 13:47:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:47:55 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: Trailing Edge Aileron Fence and door open emergenc y procedures Message-ID: Rodney, Thanks for the pics. Picture "TEFence2" certainly looks like it is toed-in toward the fuselage, but I guess that's just because of the wing sweep? In other words, the fence is positioned parallel to the fuselage, which, of course, is directly into the air flow? On a personal basis, I just got my medical back last fall from a go-round with leukemia. I was diagnosed in mid-99 and did a bone marrow transplant in early 2000. Fortunately, I had a brother that was a pretty good match. It was a slow, grueling climb back up and I can appreciate the low energy, anemia routine you're going through. Because of the damnable steroids (the reverse of the anabolic steroids used for muscle building) used to suppress the immune system, I lost a total of 50 pounds and every muscle in my body was spaghetti. To even step up on a curb, I had to do advance planning and come at it at an angle. Any flight of stairs greater than 2 steps, even with a hand rail, was out of the question. The whole process is so debilitating that its a little hard to comprehend how ordinary tasks turn into a major undertakings. The upside is, if we have to go through something like this, now is a great time. There so many great diagnostic tools and treatments that didn't exist even 10 years ago. I certainly don't have any sage advise other than just keep grinding and plugging. And remember, she's waiting there to go flying again. Thanks again for the info. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: Rodney Brim [mailto:rbrim@managepro.com] Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:33 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Cc: 'Jim Agnew'; Chuck Jensen; 'Wayne Owens'; 'Tony Babb'; 'Greg Poole'; 'Dennis Martin'; 'Jeffrey Clough' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Trailing Edge Aileron Fence and door open emergency procedures Hi, Sorry I'm a month late in responding. Am fighting cancer and low energy and don't get to the plane much to measure or take pictures. But I recently did and here they are. I also looked up my original research. The take-off roll was reduced by over 20% not 15%. Actually at the time I measured it, it was roughly 22%. Before I do the numbers and picture story I want to suggest you all add a comment to your emergency procedures. 1. If the door pops open fully, DO NOT TURN AWAY FROM THE OPEN DOOR. If you, like I, ever have that experience. You will start a rapid roll away from the door to an inverted position. For me the door opened slightly as I departed... with the gear coming up it pressurized the cabin and pops the door wide open, and then if you turn away from the door (to head back to the airport) it wants to roll and spin into the ground, in my case at about 200 feet. Opposite rudder and aileron will hold you at a 60 degree bank angle, but won't get you out of the fix as you're going to stall in that configuration. There is a way out, but that's another conversation. OK back to trailing edge fence. I've attached a couple of pictures. They are located on the inboard side of the ailerons. They point directly into the wind. If you are testing, you can cut them out of plexiglass clipboards and hot glue them in place. I did for all of my testing. I also wrote this up in an article in Velocity Views a couple of years ago. Specs: 1. Position. They are located on the inside of the aileron, but face directly into the wind, not the angle of the aileron. 2. They extend back from the trailing edge 1.5 inches, and 5 inches above the trailing edge and 2.5 inches below. 3. From that position the top and bottom dive into the wing. The length of the top (from wing to end of trailing edge) is 12 inches. The bottom is 9 inches, but note that's because the trailing edge of the stall fence is not perpendicular to the ground. Instead of dropping at a 90 degree angle at the top (which may be a preferable design), I slopped mine forward at a 70 degree angle. |---- 12 "------------------ 70 - - - |--- 9" ----------| That's roughly the shape in a text format, except the bottom slopes up to meet the underside of the wing and the top slopes down to meet the top. But both of those may be better served by having a longer run into the wing. Klaus was the one who helped me with this and it wasn't a value at the time. Hope that helps. Fly safe. Rodney Brim, -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Rene Dugas Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:24 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence I would be interested in dimensions and locations of fences. Thanks, Rene' XL RG rdugas@bayou.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Rodney Brim Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:12 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence Hi Chuck, 1. I got a >15% reduction in take-off roll on my final version of the fences. Looks like that is attributable to driving the air more directly over the wing at slower speeds and not having it slide down the wing, which if you do some dirty oil tests you will see that it is doing. 2. It doesn't effect your stall, that's all governed by the canard. 3. It feels like it reduces roll rate slightly. I didn't measure it, but you can tell the plane has more tail feathers, especially as you move the fences out along the wing, which I would not suggest. To me it makes the plane feel more stable. 4. Reduction in cruise speed is dependent upon height of the fences and location. At the location and height I have them, I have no reduction in cruise speed. 5. I think they should be standard on the kit... but then what do I know. I think everyone should move to forward hinging doors;) Rodney Brim, PS I have a picture and dimensions if you want them. They probably helped save my neck as I had an ugly door pop, going inverted stall at 200 feet coming off a runway a couple of years ago... sometimes you can use all the stability and directional control you can get your hands on. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 7:30 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence >From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? Chuck Jensen XL RG _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon Jul 28 19:20:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Doug Kanczuzewski) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:20:52 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c35534$fefc16e0$8e00a8c0@doug> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C354FA.529D3EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit N77LY made its first flight on July 25, 2003 with pilot Brian Gallagher at the controls and wife Jamie to knock down the gear if it got stuck ( which it did). Four trips around the pattern. Brian stated it handled beautifully with the side sticks. The 340hp turbo charged IO-540 hiccupped a bit but ran strong and fast, but needs a bit more twicking. 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AKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigA ooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACi iigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAgsf+PK3/wCua/yqeoLH /jyt/wDrmv8AKp6ACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAK KKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAoo ooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKAILH/ AI8rf/rmv8qnqCx/48rf/rmv8qnoAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAoooo AKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigA ooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACi iigAooooA//Z ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C354FA.529D3EE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 23:51:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:51:44 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:POWER & EXHAUST Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C357B6.50C660C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are a few choices for exhaust systems and other than cosmetics I want to know if one over the other will make a difference in power. =20 Choices: =20 -Six individual pipes directed through the bottom of the cowling. =20 -Three into one directed through the bottom of the cowling. =20 -Three into one directed straight back (then turn down at the end to avoid prop). =20 I would hate to lose a few horsepower simply for not using the proper exhaust. Some say straight pipes are the only way to go. Others say the pulsing of three into one do not create back-pressure and actually can create a vacuum. Others contend that three short pipes directed to a pipe that goes straight backwards is "too restrictive". =20 Any feedback?=20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C357B6.50C660C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are a few choices for exhaust systems and other = than cosmetics I want to know if one over the other will make a difference in = power.

Choices:

-Six individual pipes directed through the bottom of = the cowling.

-Three into one directed through the bottom of the = cowling.

-Three into one directed straight back (then turn = down at the end to avoid prop).

I would hate to lose a few horsepower simply for not = using the proper exhaust. Some = say straight pipes are the only way to go. = Others say the pulsing of three into one do not create back-pressure and actually = can create a vacuum. Others = contend that three short pipes directed to a pipe that goes straight backwards is = “too restrictive”.

Any feedback?

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C357B6.50C660C3-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu Jul 31 23:56:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Kuc) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:56:57 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Non US Winds Aloft References: <006e01c3556a$6f4da640$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: <03b101c357b7$0b840920$0301a8c0@win2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03AE_01C35795.842162F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Non US Winds AloftThanks Simon, I am in comunication woth = someone out in Europe that is looking at a way of trying to capture the = winds aloft on a pc or such. Bob ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Simon Aegerter=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:06 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Non US Winds Aloft Inquiring minds would like to know. How does one do weather = briefing in Europe, especially if you wanted to get winds aloft. Hi, Bob! any adventurous ideas out there? There are many ways, none as straightforward as WXBRIEF or DUATS. = Possibilities: - every serious aerodrome in Europe has a so called "C" office (I = think it stands for "cash"). Yes they collect your landing fees and they = can give you a weather briefing. Depending on the country (Hey, this is = Europe!) the local aviation authority may have set up a system of = briefing and filing stations at the C offices that you are supposed to = use. - if you go in grand style and ask for handling, the handling agency = will hand you a complete briefing package. - in every country, there is a phone number that you can call. The C = office has the number. No it is not a 800 number! - There are a number of web sites that you can use. I like = http://www.phd.nl/aviation/wx/ or http://www.austrocontrol.at Hope that helps! Best Simon --=20 Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, Switzerland ------=_NextPart_000_03AE_01C35795.842162F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Non US Winds Aloft
Thanks Simon, I am in = comunication woth=20 someone out in Europe that is looking at a way of trying to capture the = winds=20 aloft on a pc or such.

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Simon = Aegerter
To: reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 = 11:06=20 AM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Non US = Winds=20 Aloft

Inquiring minds=20 would like to know. How does one do weather briefing in = Europe,=20 especially if you wanted to get winds = aloft.

Hi, Bob!

any adventurous ideas out there?

There are many ways, none as straightforward as WXBRIEF or DUATS. = Possibilities:

- every serious aerodrome in Europe has a so called "C" office (I = think=20 it stands for "cash"). Yes they collect your landing fees and they can = give=20 you a weather briefing. Depending on the country (Hey, this is = Europe!) the=20 local aviation authority may have set up a system of briefing and = filing=20 stations at the C offices that you are supposed to use.

- if you go in grand style and ask for handling, the handling = agency will=20 hand you a complete briefing package.

- in every country, there is a phone number that you can call. = The C=20 office has the number. No it is not a 800 number!

- There are a number of web sites that you can use. I like=20 http://www.phd.nl/aviation/wx/ or http://www.austrocontrol.at

Hope that helps!

Best

Simon

--=20

Simon Aegerter, Wollerau, = Switzerland
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